Brienne last chapter of AFFC

[Platypus Rex]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 I would like to see that link to the french article (and I can read French, so the original is fine for me) 

I can quote you the words in French.  

Question:  Comment va ce tome 6 ?  (How goes Book 6?)

Answer:  Je jongle. Dans le tome 1, l'histoire est racontée à travers sept points de vue différents. Dans le tome 6, il y en a treize, je crois. En tout cas, au début du livre. Mais, à la fin, le nombre diminue.  (I am juggling.  In Book 1, the story is told across seven different points of view.  In Book 6, there are 13 of them, I think.  In any case, at the beginning of the book.  But, at the end, the number goes down.)

[Likely Luke Strong]

9 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

With her Brienne's humanity eliminated, Brienne's is a more effective servant of whatever Dark Force animates Stoneheart.

Yeah I’m definitely not in the Dark Forces camp of readers, it seems at odds with the ‘human heart at conflict with itself’ motif that GRRM set up. I think it’d be kind of lame if Stoneheart was all part of someone’s evil plan. It eliminates Brienne’s conflict, too, which seems a huge disservice to her character and the narrative.

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Re-read the chapter.  Stoneheart is 100% clear.  "Sword" stands for "take the sword and slay the kingslayer".

Oh for heaven sake.  No, I will stick with my interpretation of that passage.  You are welcome to your opinion.  Nobody can know what will happen at this point.  You can make assumptions, that's it.  I'll stick with what makes the most sense to me.  You can't force your opinion down anyone's throat.  Do stop nagging.

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, Likely Luke Strong said:

I don’t know, I think it’d be a lot less logical (and efficient, for that matter) to let Brienne die and then walk back over and resurrect her. Even if Stoneheart thinks she won’t die it’s unecessarily risky.  Lem’s also not the only one around, so I don’t know why no one else would cut her down if she’s agreeing to do something that no one else can do. 

And if it still doesn’t seem plausible, the whole trial is a mummer’s farce, so I don’t see why the hanging couldn’t effectively be staged to win Brienne’s allegiance. Cat knew Brienne and then Gendry witnessed Brienne at the Inn so it’s probably easy to guess her reaction to whole situation.

They all knew what LS wants: Jaime and that she needs Brienne for that, and that if Brienne is unwilling to swear her sword to LS to get Jaime, she can hang. They begin to proceed the hanging. She's not the first they hang. And they know from the many they've hanged that they soon sing a different song, except all the others they've hanged never had anything to offer they wanted. That's why they hang her companions within sight, including Podrick. That's why Hyle's volunteering offers are completely ignored. 

She screamed Sword, loud enough to be heard in the cavern near the clearing. They cut her down, she lives.

To rely on Thoros who at this point has lost so much faith already he can't even read flames anymore to resurrect Brienne... nah. A deadly, macabre charade it was, and it worked. 

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I can quote you the words in French.  

Question:  Comment va ce tome 6 ?  (How goes Book 6?)

Answer:  Je jongle. Dans le tome 1, l'histoire est racontée à travers sept points de vue différents. Dans le tome 6, il y en a treize, je crois. En tout cas, au début du livre. Mais, à la fin, le nombre diminue.  (I am juggling.  In Book 1, the story is told across seven different points of view.  In Book 6, there are 13 of them, I think.  In any case, at the beginning of the book.  But, at the end, the number goes down.)

Thanks for the quote. "je crois" makes it an out of hand estimate, and we know that's an impossible low number in comparison to what has been confirmed. 

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

To rely on Thoros who at this point has lost so much faith already he can't even read flames anymore to resurrect Brienne... nah. A deadly, macabre charade it was, and it worked. 

He has also said that if he had to resurrect Beric one more time; that it could well be the end of him as well.  And so to the mystery of the price Thoros pays for raising the dead.

[Platypus Rex]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Thanks for the quote. "je crois" makes it an out of hand estimate, and we know that's an impossible low number in comparison to what has been confirmed. 

It is not impossible, and less has been "confirmed" than you suppose.

Could the number change?  Sure.  But it is not an impossible number.  It is perfectly possible that you are wrong, and that GRRM knows more about it than Brynden B Fish, or any other amateur internet detective

Only maybe 9 POVs are truly confirmed.  To these I am personally inclined add Cersei and Dany as near-certain, bringing it to 11.  That leaves room for 2 more, none of whom are inevitable.  And if GRRM's number is off, it is far more likely to be off by 1 or 2, than by 4 to 6.

You can't go by the ULTIMATE WINDS OF WINTER RESEOURCE.  It's claim to fame is the sheer volume of information it gives.  The reliability of that information is FAR FAR down its list of priorities.

[Platypus Rex]

8 hours ago, Likely Luke Strong said:

Lem’s also not the only one around, so I don’t know why no one else would cut her down if she’s agreeing to do something that no one else can do. 

Because they were ordered to hang her.

8 hours ago, Likely Luke Strong said:

And if it still doesn’t seem plausible, the whole trial is a mummer’s farce, so I don’t see why the hanging couldn’t effectively be staged to win Brienne’s allegiance. 

Sure.  I'm not saying it's impossible to imagine a scenario where she gets cut down.  I'm merely saying that nothing about the scenario makes that inevitable

[Runaway Penguin]

Note that to revive unCat, Beric had to give his own flame. To revive UnBrienne thus, UnCat would have to cease to exist. TANSTAAFL. 

 

And I doubt UnCat wants to leave her murder quest alone - if for no other reason that Brienne has no quest regarding Freys that would compel her to continue hanging her (or even Lannisters in general).

 

So Brienne survives because she was cut down - and I doubt she would go to fetch Jaime if Pod and Ser Hyle died. 

[Platypus Rex]

3 hours ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Note that to revive unCat, Beric had to give his own flame. To revive UnBrienne thus, UnCat would have to cease to exist. TANSTAAFL. 

And yet, Thoros is still with us.  Funny how everyone seems so determined to forget about Thoros.  He had a long conversation with Brienne, prior to her hanging, almost as if GRRM wanted to make sure we did not forget him.

[Platypus Rex]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

He has also said that if he had to resurrect Beric one more time; that it could well be the end of him as well.  And so to the mystery of the price Thoros pays for raising the dead.

I don't recall that at all.  I suspect you are misremembering, but feel free to produce the quote.

IIRC, it was Beric telling Thoros that 6 times was too many, and not the other way around.

But even if you were right, it would still mean that Thoros can do this at least once more.

[Platypus Rex]

11 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh for heaven sake.  No, I will stick with my interpretation of that passage.  You are welcome to your opinion.  Nobody can know what will happen at this point.  You can make assumptions, that's it.  I'll stick with what makes the most sense to me.  You can't force your opinion down anyone's throat.  Do stop nagging.

I was quoting the text.  It wasn't my interpretation.

"... take the sword and slay the kingslayer, or be hanged as a betrayer … sword or noose …. choose … choose"

[Platypus Rex]

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

They all knew what LS wants: Jaime and that she needs Brienne for that, and that if Brienne is unwilling to swear her sword to LS to get Jaime, she can hang. They begin to proceed the hanging. She's not the first they hang. And they know from the many they've hanged that they soon sing a different song, except all the others they've hanged never had anything to offer they wanted. That's why they hang her companions within sight, including Podrick. That's why Hyle's volunteering offers are completely ignored. 

She screamed Sword, loud enough to be heard in the cavern near the clearing. They cut her down, she lives.

A perfectly fine theory.  However, that's what it is.  A theory.  It is not proven, and does not prove that alternate theories can be ruled out.

[Platypus Rex]

17 hours ago, Likely Luke Strong said:

Yeah I’m definitely not in the Dark Forces camp of readers, it seems at odds with the ‘human heart at conflict with itself’ motif that GRRM set up. I think it’d be kind of lame if Stoneheart was all part of someone’s evil plan. It eliminates Brienne’s conflict, too, which seems a huge disservice to her character and the narrative.

GRRM has called Stoneheart a fire wight, and all-but said outright that she is a counterpart to the ice wights of the North.  That would seem to imply that if one is animated by a Dark Death Force, then so is the other.  Looks like the Forces of Death come in both temperatures.  As GRRM once said in an interview, one thing that Ice and Fire have in common, is that they will both kill you dead.

Waymar Royce's fate is also inconsistent with the "heart at war with itself theme".  I guess the little snob will never learn humility now.  Too bad. 

And I'm pretty sure Ned Stark's heart is no longer beating, and hence can no longer be at war with itself, even if he never does return as a zombie.

Still, we've got lots of characters left.  Arguably too many.  There is plenty of room for hearts to be at war with themselves, no matter how many formerly-alive characters GRRM kills or turns into zombies.

[sweetsunray]

23 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

GRRM has called Stoneheart a fire wight, and all-but said outright that she is a counterpart to the ice wights of the North.  That would seem to imply that if one is animated by a Dark Death Force, then so is the other.  Looks like the Forces of Death come in both temperatures.  As GRRM once said in an interview, one thing that Ice and Fire have in common, is that they will both kill you dead.

Waymar Royce's fate is also inconsistent with the "heart at war with itself theme".  I guess the little snob will never learn humility now.  Too bad. 

And I'm pretty sure Ned Stark's heart is no longer beating, and hence can no longer be at war with itself, even if he never does return as a zombie.

Still, we've got lots of characters left.  Arguably too many.  There is plenty of room for hearts to be at war with themselves, no matter how many formerly-alive characters GRRM kills or turns into zombies.

But Waymar Royce was never a POV, and his was a tale of hubris. 

Ned Stark's heart of conflict was resolved, even though he paid for it with his life. He was a dead man walking anyway. But he chose a smear upon his honor and declare someone he knew to be a bastard (in both meanings of the word) the rightful king in order to save his daughters. And at the very least, yes, it helped Arya get away from King's Landing. 

Regardless of the length or the POV, both Waymar and Ned have a rounded arc for the reader. 

[Platypus Rex]

25 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But Waymar Royce was never a POV, and his was a tale of hubris. 

Catelyn was  POV, and when she died, her POV ceased.  "That may tell you something", says GRRM.

Dunno whether it is meaningful to say Catelyn's heart is still at war with itself.  Maybe yes.  Maybe no.   But it's no longer beating, that's for sure.

In any event, all I am suggesting is that Brienne has gone the same way Catelyn went.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Catelyn was  POV, and when she died, her POV ceased.  "That may tell you something", says GRRM.

Dunno whether it is meaningful to say Catelyn's heart is still at war with itself.  Maybe yes.  Maybe no.   But it's no longer beating, that's for sure.

In any event, all I am suggesting is that Brienne has gone the same way Catelyn went.

And Catelyn's arc was done. Catelyn's arc would not have felt incomplete if there had not been LS. But the end of Catelyn, enabled the start of LS who has another arc. 

The point of "the conflict of the heart" in a story is not just the conflict alone, but also seeing its consequences for that character, even the dire ones.

Waymar's arc: he was warned over and over by Gared, by Will, by the trees, by the wind and the wolf, and he ignored it every step of the way (the tree branches even tried to pry his black steel sword and sable cloak off him, which was what the Others aimed to destroy). And only as the Others appeared did he realize that he might have made a mistake, but he encountered his brevity, and even when wounded did not flounder. But the POV was Will: who very much was in conflict. His guts told him Gared was right, but Waymar's cold rationality made him go anyhow; then he climbs the tree and knows he should cry out in warning to Waymar, but instead he hugs the tree and remains silent; the tree tried glue him to it through the night, but he came down too early and snatched the sword the Others wanted destroyed, only to meet his death. 

Brienne's true conflict has only begun: for Podrick she chose the sword, to lure the man she came to admire, believe and love into a trap, what she potentially believes to be his death. In that sense, Brienne's arc is incomplete, whereas Jaime's despite his efforts actually is far more complete.  

[Platypus Rex]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Brienne's true conflict has only begun: for Podrick she chose the sword, to lure the man she came to admire, believe and love into a trap, what she potentially believes to be his death. In that sense, Brienne's arc is incomplete, whereas Jaime's despite his efforts actually is far more complete.  

It is hard to judge a story arc until it is over.  GRRM's sense of story might not be the same as mine.  But, on the other hand, it might not be the same as yours either. 

[Platypus Rex]

GRRM in a Sept, 2011 interview, two months after the release of ADWD:

"My characters who come back from death are the worse for wear -- in some ways they are not even the same characters any more. The body may be moving but some aspect of the spirit is changed or transformed and they've lost something. One of the characters who has come back repeatedly from death is a minor character named Beric Dondarion, the Lightning Lord. Each time he is revived he loses a little more of himself. He was sent on a mission before his first death -- he was sent on a mission to do something -- and that's what he's clinging to. He's forgetting other things -- he's forgetting who he is or where he lived -- he's forgotten the woman that he was once supposed to marry. Bits of his humanity are lost every time he comes back from death, but he remembers that mission. His flesh is falling away from him, but this one thing -- this purpose -- that he had is part of what is animating him and bringing him back to death. And I think we see echoes of that with some of the other characters who have come back from death."

So we have Beric, who has a loss of humanity but is sustained by a sense of mission.  But, in addition to him, "we" have seen echoes of this same pattern in other "characters" (plural), (besides Beric) who have come back from death.

The only other character we have seen, who seems to fit this pattern, is Catelyn.   Unless … Brienne ??

[Platypus Rex]

On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 10:03 AM, LynnS said:

Lest we forget, Brienne's sword is Oathkeeper.

Right.  And GRRM says that Beric-style zombies are driven by their sense of mission -- by their oaths.