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BigBoss1

Why weren’t Robert’s brothers princes

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On 7/14/2019 at 5:43 PM, Lord Varys said:

Styling his own brothers princes would add more royal gravitas to his family and help overshadow the fact that they are usurpers. Even more so after Robert made his brothers powerful lords in their own right. Being the Prince of Dragonstone and the Prince of Storm's End sounds altogether different than being a mere lord.

To my understanding it would be Prince Stannis, lord of dragonstone. Or Prince Renly lord of SE. (Like Doran, Prince of Dorne and lord of Sunspear; Or Robb the king in the north and lord of Winterfell.)

Being a Lord is its own thing, its not to be diminished, and perhaps is a greater title then Prince. Lords have actual responsibilities, and probably a heafty paycheck

Now back in the day the Prince of Dragonstone was heir apparent and hopefully his son will follow suit, but if there is no son then a nephew or cousin will succeed. This is not the case with Stannis, Shireen is the heir to Dragonstone if Stannis doesn't father a son. Therefore the logistics of being the master of Dragonstone has changed in nature. Eggs dad was Prince of Summerhall (i think), id venture to say that would have been the same situation. The Targaryen princes held their castles for the realm where as Stannis' heirs will rule Dragonstone forever, like Petyr and Harrenhall.

So about Lord being greater then Prince, perhaps thats the reason for Renlys title. Being 5th in line is all gravy, but so is Lord of Stormsend.

5 hours ago, BigBoss1 said:

Do we know how the iron born dealt with this? Their line descends from the old Greyjoy kings elected at the kingsmoots but i remember Victarion was still a lord even tough he was brother to two kings?

Im not even sure the Iromborn known how to deal with it. 

No, Vics not a lord. He doesnt own and land, just the iron fleet

Quote

"A victory worthy of a lordship. You should have an island."

Lord Victarion. Aye, and why not? It might not be the Seastone Chair, but it would be something.

So according to my logic, Iron Captain is a greater title then Prince. Which isnt unfathomable for ironborn, theyre fans of their navy. Similarly Aeron is the damphair, a godly title that is also greater then prince.

And then we get to Theon, The Prince of Winterfell, to destroy my theory.

 

P.s

Stannis is a prince. Hes the Prince that was promised :P

 

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27 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

To my understanding it would be Prince Stannis, lord of dragonstone. Or Prince Renly lord of SE. (Like Doran, Prince of Dorne and lord of Sunspear; Or Robb the king in the north and lord of Winterfell.)

Being a Lord is its own thing, its not to be diminished, and perhaps is a greater title then Prince. Lords have actual responsibilities, and probably a heafty paycheck

Now back in the day the Prince of Dragonstone was heir apparent and hopefully his son will follow suit, but if there is no son then a nephew or cousin will succeed. This is not the case with Stannis, Shireen is the heir to Dragonstone if Stannis doesn't father a son. Therefore the logistics of being the master of Dragonstone has changed in nature. Eggs dad was Prince of Summerhall (i think), id venture to say that would have been the same situation. The Targaryen princes held their castles for the realm where as Stannis' heirs will rule Dragonstone forever, like Petyr and Harrenhall.

So about Lord being greater then Prince, perhaps thats the reason for Renlys title. Being 5th in line is all gravy, but so is Lord of Stormsend.

Im not even sure the Iromborn known how to deal with it. 

No, Vics not a lord. He doesnt own and land, just the iron fleet

So according to my logic, Iron Captain is a greater title then Prince. Which isnt unfathomable for ironborn, theyre fans of their navy. Similarly Aeron is the damphair, a godly title that is also greater then prince.

And then we get to Theon, The Prince of Winterfell, to destroy my theory.

 

P.s

Stannis is a prince. Hes the Prince that was promised :P

 

Well, technically Victarion does have the title of lord. Lord captain of the iron fleet. He should be adressed as lord both because of his station and because of his position regardless of owning actual land. Maybe the iron island don't have princes and Theon deluded himself into thinking he was one. I dont remember if Asha calls herself a princess.

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Did Maekar, as Prince of Summerhall, have dominion, lands, and incomes that went along with it or did he just get a stipend from the Crown? Did he have petty lords below him that were his vassals or not?

Or, did he just have a household of his own, paid for by the crown?

This is important, since we know that that is how it worked for Stannis and Renly.

(All in all, it is likely just an oversight by GRRM.)

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21 minutes ago, BigBoss1 said:

Well, technically Victarion does have the title of lord. Lord captain of the iron fleet. He should be adressed as lord both because of his station and because of his position regardless of owning actual land. Maybe the iron island don't have princes and Theon deluded himself into thinking he was one. I dont remember if Asha calls herself a princess.

Good point.

Maybe ironborn don't have lords (though they clearly do)

Quote

"The king is dead," the Damphair told him.

"Aye. I had a bird. And now another." The Merlyn was a bald round fleshy man who styled himself "Lord" in the manner of the green lands, and dressed in furs and velvets. "One raven summons me to Pyke, another to Ten Towers. You krakens have too many arms, you pull a man to pieces. What say you, priest? Where should I send my longships?"

Aeron scowled. "Ten Towers, do you say? What kraken calls you there?" Ten Towers was the seat of the Lord of Harlaw.

"The Princess Asha.

This is getting confusing. 

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4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

To my understanding it would be Prince Stannis, lord of dragonstone. Or Prince Renly lord of SE. (Like Doran, Prince of Dorne and lord of Sunspear; Or Robb the king in the north and lord of Winterfell.)

If we take Maekar and the various Princes of Dragonstone (and the one Queen of Dragonstone - Rhaena) as examples then this doesn't fly. Maekar, the Prince of Summerhall effectively was a lord in his own right, just as the rulers of Dragonstone before Stannis.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Being a Lord is its own thing, its not to be diminished, and perhaps is a greater title then Prince. Lords have actual responsibilities, and probably a heafty paycheck

People have suggested that lord may be a more prestigious title, but that is very convincing considering that everybody is a lord. Stannis and Renly the lords are not visibly distinct from the non-royal great houses, nor from the average petty lord. Granted, the fact that the Starks have the same titles as some petty lords is also problematic, but there are royals in this series that are princes - meaning it is rather odd that they are not princes.

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Now back in the day the Prince of Dragonstone was heir apparent and hopefully his son will follow suit, but if there is no son then a nephew or cousin will succeed. This is not the case with Stannis, Shireen is the heir to Dragonstone if Stannis doesn't father a son. Therefore the logistics of being the master of Dragonstone has changed in nature. Eggs dad was Prince of Summerhall (i think), id venture to say that would have been the same situation. The Targaryen princes held their castles for the realm where as Stannis' heirs will rule Dragonstone forever, like Petyr and Harrenhall.

It seems King Daeron II granted Summerhall to Maekar and his heirs as a permanent seat. Meaning if Baelor Breakspear or Aerys I or Rhaegel had continued the Targaryen royal line Maekar's eldest son Daeron - or if he predeceased him other sons/descendants of him - would have succeeded his father as Prince of Summerhall. In fact, we can also assume/speculate that Daeron the Drunk actually became Prince of Summerhall after Maekar was named Prince of Dragonstone by King Aerys. In addition, chances are pretty good that King Maekar eventually granted Egg Summerhall since Daeron eventually became Prince of Dragonstone (although he preferred to be styled Prince of Summerhall because that was less gloomy, indicating he also was Prince of Summerhall at one time). And after Daeron's death Aerion would have become Prince of Dragonstone, meaning Egg may have been Prince of Summerhall then. And during Egg's reign one of the younger sons - Jaehaerys II originally, perhaps, or Daeron later on, possibly even Duncan the Small after he had given up his claim to the throne - could have been Prince of Summerhall.

3 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Did Maekar, as Prince of Summerhall, have dominion, lands, and incomes that went along with it or did he just get a stipend from the Crown? Did he have petty lords below him that were his vassals or not?

Or, did he just have a household of his own, paid for by the crown?

This is important, since we know that that is how it worked for Stannis and Renly.

(All in all, it is likely just an oversight by GRRM.)

It is very much implied that both the Princes of Dragonstone and the Princes of Summerhall were effectively lords in their own right. The Princes of Dragonstone effectively ruled over all the lordships and domains the Targaryens controlled before the Conquest, and the Princes of Summerhall would have had enough lands and incomes attached to their seat to finance it. After all, they were supposed to be established as a cadet branch with a castle of their own.

I'm also contemplating the idea that King Aegon III may have intended to grant Dragonstone and its holdings to his brother Viserys. The tradition that the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne is the Prince of Dragonstone has long been established by then, but Prince Viserys was working very closely with Aegon III, had children at a very early age long before Aegon III fathered children, and he was his brother's presumptive heir until the birth of the future Daeron I.

Thus I'd not be surprised if Aegon III granted Dragonstone to Viserys the way Jaehaerys I gave it to his sister Rhaena. The reason why it would eventually have become the seat to the Heir Apparent again would have been because Viserys II eventually became king himself.

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I genuinely believe that this was an oversight by GRRM. What happens with the Starks and the Greyjoys as we progress only seems to support this.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

People have suggested that lord may be a more prestigious title, but that is very convincing considering that everybody is a lord. Stannis and Renly the lords are not visibly distinct from the non-royal great houses, nor from the average petty lord. Granted, the fact that the Starks have the same titles as some petty lords is also problematic, but there are royals in this series that are princes - meaning it is rather odd that they are not princes.

Lol, I mean not everybodys a lord. Like, Sansas not, nor Salladhor Saans nor AllforJoffrey. Lol, but yea I feel ya, did Big Bucket have more prestige then Rhegar? But he does have vassels where as Rhaegar only kinda did.

Perhaps its not a mistake by GRRM

(ok. So this is what i think [but i don't like it], its plot driven, kinda. Like, we're not supposed to think that Roberts brothers are his heirs until Ned tells us. The word prince is to similar to heir, which would spoil the mystery of agot. The word Prince [thanks Disney] also reminds me of chivalry, honor, bravery and romance, basically what Sansa thinks Joff is. Which works well because hes the prince.) 

but an intentional move by Robert. Stannis was slighted when he was given command of Dragonstone, a slights not a slight when theres a promotion involved. Renly was given the responsibility of defending their ancestors home, something vastly important that Robert perhaps didnt want Renly distracted on. Robert also tried to make sure the realm knows hes not Aerys, taking down the dragonskulls and perhaps diminishing the wrath of the royal family. Also Jon Arryn and Cersei were very demanding, if only Joff and them are princes itd be a victory for Cersei.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It seems King Daeron II granted Summerhall to Maekar and his heirs as a permanent seat. Meaning if Baelor Breakspear or Aerys I or Rhaegel had continued the Targaryen royal line Maekar's eldest son Daeron - or if he predeceased him other sons/descendants of him - would have succeeded his father as Prince of Summerhall. 

Why does it seem like that? If the sickness and whatever didnt kill almost everybody then why would such a lesserbranch have a house? Like, if Breakspear had like 10 sons then how could Egg ever tey to claim a castle?

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

, and the Princes of Summerhall would have had enough lands and incomes attached to their seat to finance it. After all, they were supposed to be established as a cadet branch with a castle of their own.

Interesting, I didnt know that.

But isn't Summerhall in the crownlands? Thusly taking income directly away from the crown

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7 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

 

But isn't Summerhall in the crownlands? Thusly taking income directly away from the crown

I believe it is in between the stormlands and the reach but directly sworn to kings landing. 

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Robb's siblings were children, so it could make sense to think of them being termed princes as courtesy titles.

 

Stannis and Renly wouldn't have needed courtesy titles, because they were made lords in their own right.

 

 

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We don'tknow how they were called prior Robert granted them their keeps and Joffrey was born. After those facts the title Prince was pretty much meaningless, they were not born with them and each had started his own branch.

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In theory, they are lords, considering they are ruling their own lands. Renly was Lord of Storm's End and also Lord Paramount of the Stormlands. In real life, we see princes becoming dukes or arch-dukes, I think that's the case.

Also, Stannis rules Dragonstone, if he was entitled Prince of Dragonstone, that would make people think he was the heir and not Joffrey. In theory, Dragonstone should have been given to Joffrey once he was off age. And Storm's End should have been given to Stannis.

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2 hours ago, Shadow of Asshai said:

Also, Stannis rules Dragonstone, if he was entitled Prince of Dragonstone, that would make people think he was the heir and not Joffrey. In theory, Dragonstone should have been given to Joffrey once he was off age. And Storm's End should have been given to Tommen

FFY. 

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On 7/14/2019 at 7:18 PM, miyuki said:

Daenerys was never called a princess when Viserys was alive either if I remember correctly, she was either referred to as "khaleesi", "sister", "the child" or "the Dothraki whore".

I am sorry, but you decidedly do not remember correctly.  She was called "Little Princess" by Willem Darry at the house with the Red door.  

She's called or described as a princess five times in her first chapter, including the honorific "Princess of Dragonstone", which is exactly what Stannis should have been named prior to Joffrey's birth. Thereafter he should have been named Prince Stannis, Lord of Dragonstone.

Second chapter that honor is used again, coupled with 2 more mentions of her being a princess.

3rd chapter she recalls how Vis told her she was a princess all her life.

3 times mentioned as princess again in chapter IV.

Twice in chapter V before he dies.  Jorah tries to continue calling her that in later chapters but she insists on being called a queen. 

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Let's not forget that Theon styled himself as "Prince" once his father donned his crown again. Asha is also called "Princess" in few occasions.

Yes, Renly and Stannis not being princes is a contradiction with the dynastic rules used in Westeros.

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If I was Tywin, I'd throw a huge fit about Stannis and Renly being named princes. Muddies the water too much about where the power really lies and puts too many ideas in people's heads if the Lannisters aren't to someone's liking. It's Varys' whole power and image thing. It's also why Cersei always kept her name. It's a constant reminder that Robert was backed by Tywin and that no one should forget that.

Makes sense to me that they didn't get those titles because it'd be out of character for the Lannisters to go along quietly with that. That and Robert wasn't particularly fond of either brother.

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8 hours ago, Lollygag said:

If I was Tywin, I'd throw a huge fit about Stannis and Renly being named princes. Muddies the water too much about where the power really lies and puts too many ideas in people's heads if the Lannisters aren't to someone's liking. It's Varys' whole power and image thing. It's also why Cersei always kept her name. It's a constant reminder that Robert was backed by Tywin and that no one should forget that.

 Makes sense to me that they didn't get those titles because it'd be out of character for the Lannisters to go along quietly with that. That and Robert wasn't particularly fond of either brother.

Cersei got her name simply because she couldn't change it, Spouses don't adopt the royalty last name. Not only Cersei, there is no wife of a King that adopted his name unless as happened with some of the Targs they were born with it.

I doubt Robert gave a damn about what Tywin and Cersei thought about the matter, had he ever listened to them it's unlikely that Storm's End and Daragonstone, keeps which by rights should pass to Robert's sons, would ever be granted to Stannis and Renly. The most likely answer is that they stopped being called Princes the moment Joffy was conceived.  Robert deciding naming them lordss imply split them into different branches. 

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19 hours ago, The Green Bard said:

I am sorry, but you decidedly do not remember correctly.  She was called "Little Princess" by Willem Darry at the house with the Red door.  

She's called or described as a princess five times in her first chapter, including the honorific "Princess of Dragonstone", which is exactly what Stannis should have been named prior to Joffrey's birth. Thereafter he should have been named Prince Stannis, Lord of Dragonstone.

Second chapter that honor is used again, coupled with 2 more mentions of her being a princess.

3rd chapter she recalls how Vis told her she was a princess all her life.

3 times mentioned as princess again in chapter IV.

Twice in chapter V before he dies.  Jorah tries to continue calling her that in later chapters but she insists on being called a queen. 

Just to be clear - Prince of Dragonstone is a title that is usually granted the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne (starting with King Aenys' son and heir Aegon the Uncrowned and confirmed as a practice by Jaehaerys I with his heirs Aemon, Baelon, and Viserys). It is not a title bestowed on a mere presumptive heir. We see this, for instance, in the fact that Prince Daemon is not granted that title - because the king expects to eventually have an heir of his body.

In that sense, Stannis never had any right to claim that particular title. He never was Robert's Heir Apparent, merely the presumtive heir to the throne while Robert was without heirs of his own body.

Dany is named Princess of Dragonstone by her brother Viserys III, meaning he wanted her to be seen as more than just a presumptive heiress, apparently.

And to be clear - 'Prince of Dragonstone' is a title like 'Prince of Wales' or 'Prince of Dorne'. It means the person holding that title actually rules Dragonstone and the lands sworn to it. It is not the fancy title of a king's son but rather a principality in its own right. That changed when Robert made it a minor lordship, of course.

Whether Dragonstone remained the seat of the Heir Apparent throughout the Targaryen reign remains to be seen. It was about to become the seat of a cadet branch at least two times already - first Maegor was the Prince of Dragonstone, indicating his children - if he had had any - might have succeeded him there, and later Jaehaerys I granted Dragonstone to his sister Queen Rhaena, indicating Aerea would have succeeded her mother there if she had lived.

I'd not be surprised if Aegon III were to name Viserys Prince of Dragonstone to give him and his children a seat of his own. These brothers were very close and it strikes me as unlikely that the man wanted his brother to remain a landless prince throughout his life.

If this were the case then the KL and Dragonstonian possessions of the Targaryens would have united again when Viserys II succeeded the childless Baelor the Blessed.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

And to be clear - 'Prince of Dragonstone' is a title like 'Prince of Wales' or 'Prince of Dorne'. It means the person holding that title actually rules Dragonstone and the lands sworn to it. It is not the fancy title of a king's son but rather a principality in its own right. That changed when Robert made it a minor lordship, of course.

Evidence of that?? Dragonstone reeks of a dauphiné and we never see anyone ruling at them, or even holding a council. The lords of the narrow sea are sworn to the Crownlands until Robert set  them apart.  Even when Rhaena and Maegor actually ruled  the island, the lords of the narrow sea did not answer to them. The title and the island are given to every king's heir apparent...

Edited by frenin

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16 hours ago, frenin said:

Cersei got her name simply because she couldn't change it, Spouses don't adopt the royalty last name. Not only Cersei, there is no wife of a King that adopted his name unless as happened with some of the Targs they were born with it.

I doubt Robert gave a damn about what Tywin and Cersei thought about the matter, had he ever listened to them it's unlikely that Storm's End and Daragonstone, keeps which by rights should pass to Robert's sons, would ever be granted to Stannis and Renly. The most likely answer is that they stopped being called Princes the moment Joffy was conceived.  Robert deciding naming them lordss imply split them into different branches. 

If you want to believe those sorts of things go ahead but I'm not sold. GRRM doesn't do rigidly detailed world-building. It limits dynamic characterization and removes their agency. Women in this world use the name which adds the most power. Also, Joff was more often dressed and presented as a Lannister. Seems like a no-no for a world with rigid rules on that sort of thing.

There's nothing in the books about the Lannisters being denied Storm's End and Dragonstone by them going to Stannis and Renly. If that was the case, it would have come up because Lannisters always pay their debts, blah blah blah. They all seem cool with it actually.

As for them being princed and then unprinced, there's just nothing at all in the books about it and again, GRRM's not big on rigid rules, and it's not in character for Tywin (wouldn't want competition) or Robert (didn't care for Stannis or Renly). Actually not for Stannis or Renly either. Stannis would probably be grinding his teeth over being unprinced and Renly would probably be missing the pomp and circumstance that would be lost with an unprincing. This looks more like projecting rl rules onto Westeros without text.

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

If you want to believe those sorts of things go ahead but I'm not sold. GRRM doesn't do rigidly detailed world-building. It limits dynamic characterization and removes their agency. Women in this world use the name which adds the most power. Also, Joff was more often dressed and presented as a Lannister. Seems like a no-no for a world with rigid rules on that sort of thing.

I don't think Robert cared a bit about Joffrey, the very fact that Cersei got to name all her children shows that. But Queens don't adopt the name of their husbands, there is quite literally no name that adds more power than the royal one.  That's a well established, even during the war of the 5 Kings, all the Queens went to their families's name. Cersei is just following the rule here.

 

 

58 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

There's nothing in the books about the Lannisters being denied Storm's End and Dragonstone by them going to Stannis and Renly. If that was the case, it would have come up because Lannisters always pay their debts, blah blah blah. They all seem cool with it actually.

There is no debt  to pay nor were they denied anything, nor were the Lannister's keep, Robert could do as he wanted with them and it all happened 13 years ago. More than enough time for them. 

 

 

58 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

As for them being princed and then unprinced, there's just nothing at all in the books about it and again, GRRM's not big on rigid rules, and it's not in character for Tywin (wouldn't want competition) or Robert (didn't care for Stannis or Renly). Actually not for Stannis or Renly either. Stannis would probably be grinding his teeth over being unprinced and Renly would probably be missing the pomp and circumstance that would be lost with an unprincing. This looks more like projecting rl rules onto Westeros without text.

There is no competition , during Daeron's time, there were plenty of princes, just as happened during Jaeharys's. There is only competition when the sucesion is unclear, Joffrey was Robert's heir apparent. Stannis and Renly going by a Princeling title wouldn't change that... And as they showed if they wanted to contest  Robert's will, them being just lords would not stop them. They'd have the swords and the claim, going by lord or Prince is pretty much irrelevant. If Tywin wouldn't want competition  he would insist  on them not being turn into highlords.

About them being Princed and then unprinced, sure there is nothing in the books, one way or the other but given that the brothers and sons of pretenders were referred as princes by their supporters it's incredibly unlikely that no one called Renly and Stannis princes when Robert actually got to be king, even if Robert didn't care about them, they would still be called Princes... because they were princes. I doubt that wither Stannis or Renly gave a damn about that, in fact i doubt anyone cared about that title. It's not projecting, Rickon and Bran are considered princes the very moment Robb get to be crowned, the same goes for Balon's children and Daemon Blackfyre's.

Edited by frenin

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