Heresy 225 and the Snowflakes of Doom

[Melifeather]

20 minutes ago, JNR said:

Winter has certainly always been a symbolic time of struggle and difficult in the North... but it has been for the Starks as well.  We have Ned's words on this subject directly:

This clearly puts winter on one side, and the Starks on the other, relying on each other to cope with and overcome its difficulties.  When Old Nan tells Bran he's a summer child, she is saying the same thing: that winter is the enemy, an enemy he has never known.

Once again we have the Starks and direwolves on one side, and the Long Night and white walkers on the other.

Which brings us to:

They might bring winter, in a sense, to other houses like Frey, in time... but when it comes to the Long Night, House Stark is only surviving it, IMO.  As they did originally.

But that isn't to say the Starks have no connection to the Long Night, either.  Think of humanity and its relationship to global waming: it's a major threat to us.  But we are intimately connected to it, too.

I couldn't agree more. The Starks are kings over winter. They know how to survive it.

[Melifeather]

Alys Karstark is symbolically Jon Snow's sister. The Karstarks are Starks founded by a younger brother, Karlon Stark. Jon's real sister, Arya, has become "no one" which is symbolically "dead". The combination of the two represent the Other that married the Nights King. To support the idea that Alys Karstark is the Corpse Queen reborn, I found this:

 

Quote

ADWD - Jon X

Jon turned to Alys Karstark. "My lady. Are you ready?"

 

"Yes. Oh, yes."

 

"You're not scared?"

 

The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. "Let him be scared of me." The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled.

"Winter's lady." Jon squeezed her hand.

 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Alys believes Karhold will yield to her and Sigorn's 200 Thenns.

Yes, she thinks so. And she might be correct. But it hasn't happened yet, as far as we know.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Do the Thenns sound like allies of Jon Snow?

Well, at the point in the story of your qnote, no. Of course not. All Sigorn knows is that his father died fighting Night's Watch and Jon is Night's Watch.  However, at some point, Sigorn agree's to ally himself with Alys by marriage, a wedding that Jon engineered. We don't know how the negotiating went to bring Sigorn into the plan, but he does agree. I am sure it's not an easy alliance, since Jon states he needs to attend the wedding feast or Sigorn might feel slighted. 

What is interesting to me in that exchange between Sigorn and Jon is how Jon understands how hard it must be for Sigorn to even contemplate a truce with the enemy, and Jon understands. He himself doesn't think he would ever be able to ally with the Lannister's. Time will tell on that, since Jon does tell us early in Dance he want't to bring death and destcruction down on House Lannister. Perhaps that is a sign that Sigorn only wants to bring death and destruction down on the Night's Watch and Jon Snow! Perhaps it means that like Sigorn has agreed to some kind of alliance, then Jon will too, eventually? I see several options. 

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Now that he's been stabbed, will the wildlings wait around for him to recover or will they attack Winterfell without him?

The thought you posed was a general "wildling", which then became conversation about the Thenn's being Jon Snow's enemy, and eventually more specifically Sigorn. But the wildlings are a diverse group of clans and tribes, not just Sigorn of Thenn. Currently, Sigorn isn't even at the wall, so it's hard to imagine the wildings as a whole falling under his lead. Tormund is a better bet for a leader of the wildlings, and even then I doubt that all the wildlings will fall with ease under one leader.  I don't know if Sigorn is to be trusted, but I don't really think Alys Karstark is to be trusted either. Hard to say what they might do.

So, back to this idea of what the wildlings will do, I think that there is so much unforeseen that we can't really determine how this might all play out. We can speculate, of course, and I enjoy doing that. But we don't know if Jon is dead or alive. If Jon is dead, or even incapacitated, what is the incentive for the wildlings to march on Winterfell and try to claim it? What does Winterfell mean to the majority of the wildling's? I understand you working with your theory that the wildlings are the white walkers, so that would certainly alter goals if it turns out to be correct. I am currently working my way through that thread you linked to earlier, so I really don't have a good base for an opinion, yet.

[alienarea]

Do we agree there are six white walkers in the prologue? Like six direwolf pups and six 'children of Winterfell' (Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Rickon and Jon).

Can we agree that Rickard died before Brandon?

Circle back to the father and son both dying as kings (of Winter) and the cold hell reserved for Starks (who told this to Ned?). And the wolf and the burning man fighting -> Stark vs Targaryen

Vague outline: because Aerys executed Rickard and Brandon, the Targaryen prophecy was triggered like a sword without a hilt and backfired, leading to the rise of the Others and six white walkers, the Starks born after Rickard and Brandon got executed (the white walkers being the other (pun) self of the Starks).

When Sam killed puddles, Robb died. When Jon dies at the end of ADwD, a second white walker dissolves (to rise Jon?)

The consequence of this is Jon (son of winterfell) killing Daenerys. Rho'llor (sp?) succumbs to the great Other (whose  name may not be spoken but is Stark).

Currently drinking: Cabernet Sauvignon Baron de Berget from 2007.

 

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Winter has certainly always been a symbolic time of struggle and difficult in the North... but it has been for the Starks as well.  We have Ned's words on this subject directly:

Quote

Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths.

This clearly puts winter on one side, and the Starks on the other, relying on each other to cope with and overcome its difficulties.  When Old Nan tells Bran he's a summer child, she is saying the same thing: that winter is the enemy, an enemy he has never known.

But again, is that winter or Winter? I live in north eastern Montana, and winter can be damn brutal at times. It's almost always a time to endure, and some years are worse than others. But everyone in the north experiences winter to some extent, but only House Stark has "Winter is Coming" as their words. That seems to hint that their words are a bit different than just talking about a season. Even if the seasons are irregular, winter will come. But is the "winter" they are talking about something like the Long Night, like a "winter" that lasted a generation, not a normal winter by any means, but a winter that brought dead men walking though the tree's and inhuman-like  entities prowling the land with eyes glowing like blue stars in armor made of ice. That is the "winter" that I think the Stark words are talking about, and I do think it's a warning of a sorts. Ominous!

As to the Stark's struggling during winter, yes I suppose so. But they also have Winterfell, a giant radiator of a castle that keeps them warm when the cold weather comes,  a castle that sits upon a hill full of caverns and passages that are warmer underground that the air is outside, a place with a glass garden that provides them with food even during the harshest of winters, and a water source that won't freeze, a place that they open up to the the people of the north, to help them survive. The Stark's are part of helping many in the north survive each winter that comes, but this winter that is coming seems to be a different sort than most. Because we are seeing the Other's again, which no one has apparently seen in thousands of years, so long ago that mostly the stories of been forgotten. 

 

1 hour ago, JNR said:

They might bring winter, in a sense, to other houses like Frey, in time... but when it comes to the Long Night, House Stark is only surviving it, IMO.  As they did originally.

Are you saying that all houses descend from House Stark? Because only they (House Stark) originally survived the Long Night? And that they will again?

[St Daga]

6 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Can we agree that Rickard died before Brandon?

I think Brandon died first. He died by strangling himself in an attempt to rescue his father. If his father is already dead, why continue to struggle and choke himself?

 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Winter has certainly always been a symbolic time of struggle and difficult in the North... but it has been for the Starks as well.  We have Ned's words on this subject directly:

This clearly puts winter on one side, and the Starks on the other, relying on each other to cope with and overcome its difficulties.  When Old Nan tells Bran he's a summer child, she is saying the same thing: that winter is the enemy, an enemy he has never known.

Once again we have the Starks and direwolves on one side, and the Long Night and white walkers on the other.

Which brings us to:

They might bring winter, in a sense, to other houses like Frey, in time... but when it comes to the Long Night, House Stark is only surviving it, IMO.  As they did originally.

But that isn't to say the Starks have no connection to the Long Night, either.  Think of humanity and its relationship to global waming: it's a major threat to us.  But we are intimately connected to it, too.

Perfectly true, but of course we have Old Nan's story of the Night's King and a split in House Stark.

[Melifeather]

44 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Do we agree there are six white walkers in the prologue? Like six direwolf pups and six 'children of Winterfell' (Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Rickon and Jon).

Can we agree that Rickard died before Brandon?

Circle back to the father and son both dying as kings (of Winter) and the cold hell reserved for Starks (who told this to Ned?). And the wolf and the burning man fighting -> Stark vs Targaryen

Vague outline: because Aerys executed Rickard and Brandon, the Targaryen prophecy was triggered like a sword without a hilt and backfired, leading to the rise of the Others and six white walkers, the Starks born after Rickard and Brandon got executed (the white walkers being the other (pun) self of the Starks).

When Sam killed puddles, Robb died. When Jon dies at the end of ADwD, a second white walker dissolves (to rise Jon?)

The consequence of this is Jon (son of winterfell) killing Daenerys. Rho'llor (sp?) succumbs to the great Other (whose  name may not be spoken but is Stark).

Currently drinking: Cabernet Sauvignon Baron de Berget from 2007.

 

I had previously thought there were more than six up until I had recognized that there was a parallel between Sam killing a white walker and Ned killing Lady. There are other times where Sam repeats things Ned has done, so I do now believe there were only six. Of course they could have created more, but even with five left there were enough to raise a wight army. 

It's a close call between Brandon and Rickard. They both were certainly doomed. I could imagine Rickard dying in his armor before Brandon strangled in order to fulfill the saying "first the father, then the son. Both die as kings" - but I can just as easily believe it happened the other way around since I also believe that history is reversing itself with the son dying before the father so neither were kings.

Robb's and Grey Wind's deaths could have coincided with a second white walker death off the page, but we have no confirmation of that unless it's somehow tied to Tormund's son Torwynd. I had suspected that Torwynd was one of the wildlings that volunteered to be transformed, but perhaps his white walker disintegrated as well? Tormund reported that his son was always sickly and that he witnessed the night that he just up and died. If he was yet a white walker, Tormund might be proud that his son was transformed into an icy warrior, but if he also then "up and died", it would have been a great disappointment along with the grief that comes with losing a child. 

If it's true that two white walkers have died, then we should receive some confirmation that there are now only four left.

Currently drinking: water 

[alienarea]

36 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I had previously thought there were more than six up until I had recognized that there was a parallel between Sam killing a white walker and Ned killing Lady. There are other times where Sam repeats things Ned has done, so I do now believe there were only six. Of course they could have created more, but even with five left there were enough to raise a wight army. 

It's a close call between Brandon and Rickard. They both were certainly doomed. I could imagine Rickard dying in his armor before Brandon strangled in order to fulfill the saying "first the father, then the son. Both die as kings" - but I can just as easily believe it happened the other way around since I also believe that history is reversing itself with the son dying before the father so neither were kings.

Robb's and Grey Wind's deaths could have coincided with a second white walker death off the page, but we have no confirmation of that unless it's somehow tied to Tormund's son Torwynd. I had suspected that Torwynd was one of the wildlings that volunteered to be transformed, but perhaps his white walker disintegrated as well? Tormund reported that his son was always sickly and that he witnessed the night that he just up and died. If he was yet a white walker, Tormund might be proud that his son was transformed into an icy warrior, but if he also then "up and died", it would have been a great disappointment along with the grief that comes with losing a child. 

If it's true that two white walkers have died, then we should receive some confirmation that there are now only four left.

Currently drinking: water 

Some folks like water,

some folks like wine ...

 

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Do we agree there are six white walkers in the prologue? Like six direwolf pups and six 'children of Winterfell' (Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Rickon and Jon).

Can we agree that Rickard died before Brandon?

Circle back to the father and son both dying as kings (of Winter) and the cold hell reserved for Starks (who told this to Ned?). And the wolf and the burning man fighting -> Stark vs Targaryen

Vague outline: because Aerys executed Rickard and Brandon, the Targaryen prophecy was triggered like a sword without a hilt and backfired, leading to the rise of the Others and six white walkers, the Starks born after Rickard and Brandon got executed (the white walkers being the other (pun) self of the Starks).

When Sam killed puddles, Robb died. When Jon dies at the end of ADwD, a second white walker dissolves (to rise Jon?)

The consequence of this is Jon (son of winterfell) killing Daenerys. Rho'llor (sp?) succumbs to the great Other (whose  name may not be spoken but is Stark).

Currently drinking: Cabernet Sauvignon Baron de Berget from 2007.

Six Others, the same as the number of wolves and Stark children, is interesting.   However we are far from certain there are only 6, there could be many many more off camera, and it seems almost certain that Craster had more than 6 sons.  Even reading the prologue, it isn't certain we see 6 on camera. 

Brandon could have died after his father, but most likely it was the other way around.   Brandon strangled himself to death trying to escape and help his father.   This makes less sense if his father was already dead or too far gone to save.  Although Brandon was hardly in a reasonable state of mind.   Rickard also burned to death, which likely took longer than Brandon strangling himself, and Brandon would have started as soon as he knew his father was being burned. 

[Melifeather]

26 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Some folks like water,

some folks like wine ...

 

Oh, I like wine too, white or red as long as it's dry, but it's too early in the day yet. Plus I don't like to drink when I golf and Tuesday's is women's league day! I'll have a glass on the 19th hole afterward. How is the Baron?

[Black Crow]

31 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Some folks like water,

 

 

Ah, but you should see what water does to your boots...

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Oh, I like wine too, white or red as long as it's dry, but it's too early in the day yet. Plus I don't like to drink when I golf and Tuesday's is women's league day! I'll have a glass on the 19th hole afterward. How is the Baron?

The Baron is still good, amazingly, 12 years are quite long for a Cabernet Sauvignon.

Didn't want to pick at you, btw, my crooked brain synched water and wine with the song Strychnine by the Sonics, an obscure band from long time ago. It goes like this:

Some folks like water
Some folks like wine
But i like the taste
Of straight strychnine (hey hey)

You may think it's funny
That I like this stuff
But once you've tried it
You can't get enough (Woah!)

Wine is red (hey)
Poison is blue
Strychnine is good
For what's ailin you
WAHHH
Wine is red (hey)
Poison is blue
Strychnine is good
For what's ailin you
WAHHH

If you listen to what I say
You'll try strychnine some day
Make you jump, it'll make you shout
It'll even knock you out

Some folks like water
Some folks like wine
But i like the taste
Of straight strychnine

 

Hope you have good game and enjoy the 19th hole :)

[JNR]

9 hours ago, St Daga said:

That seems to hint that their words are a bit different than just talking about a season.

Well, I haven't ever suggested it was just talking about a season.  See earlier posts. 

But symbolically, they are consistently presented as @Feather Crystal suggested above: kings who contend with and defeat winter, however you interpret winter, as opposed to kings who use winter as a weapon against foes.

9 hours ago, St Daga said:

I do think it's a warning of a sorts. Ominous!

So do I -- or rather, that it was originally.  But that was long ago, it was rendered in Old Tongue... and the original phrasing has long since been utterly forgotten.

I would really like to be able to interview a few First Men from that time, given a decent translator such as Tormund.  And lacking that, as a decent substitute, Thenns... who still seem to retain a great deal of the original First Men culture, language, etc., probably including the mythology and specific info of the Long Night.

What do they remember about it?  They, who remember so many other things from that time?

9 hours ago, St Daga said:

Are you saying that all houses descend from House Stark? Because only they (House Stark) originally survived the Long Night? And that they will again?

I'm just saying that in the Long Night, I doubt the Starks were on the side of the Popsicles.  Which is a recurring idea in Heresy.

I think they were human beings struggling to survive, like all the other petty kings at that time, and they did survive (though many no doubt did not).  As to whether they will again, or will all be killed off, we'll have to read and find out! 

But GRRM certainly hints that they may in his 1993 summary, in which he singles out Jon, Bran, and Arya as survivors:

Quote

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes...Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow.

The above also shows that as early as 1993, GRRM was thinking of Jon as a "child of Winterfell," which is interesting.

 

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, alienarea said:

The Baron is still good, amazingly, 12 years are quite long for a Cabernet Sauvignon.

Didn't want to pick at you, btw, my crooked brain synched water and wine with the song Strychnine by the Sonics, an obscure band from long time ago. It goes like this:

Some folks like water
Some folks like wine
But i like the taste
Of straight strychnine (hey hey)

You may think it's funny
That I like this stuff
But once you've tried it
You can't get enough (Woah!)

Wine is red (hey)
Poison is blue
Strychnine is good
For what's ailin you
WAHHH
Wine is red (hey)
Poison is blue
Strychnine is good
For what's ailin you
WAHHH

If you listen to what I say
You'll try strychnine some day
Make you jump, it'll make you shout
It'll even knock you out

Some folks like water
Some folks like wine
But i like the taste
Of straight strychnine

 

Hope you have good game and enjoy the 19th hole

Must have been a Pentecostal that penned this? Damn holy rollers.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, I haven't ever suggested it was just talking about a season.  See earlier posts. 

But symbolically, they are consistently presented as @Feather Crystal suggested above: kings who contend with and defeat winter, however you interpret winter, as opposed to kings who use winter as a weapon against foes.

So do I -- or rather, that it was originally.  But that was long ago, it was rendered in Old Tongue... and the original phrasing has long since been utterly forgotten.

I would really like to be able to interview a few First Men from that time, given a decent translator such as Tormund.  And lacking that, as a decent substitute, Thenns... who still seem to retain a great deal of the original First Men culture, language, etc., probably including the mythology and specific info of the Long Night.

What do they remember about it?  They, who remember so many other things from that time?

I'm just saying that in the Long Night, I doubt the Starks were on the side of the Popsicles.  Which is a recurring idea in Heresy.

I think they were human beings struggling to survive, like all the other petty kings at that time, and they did survive (though many no doubt did not).  As to whether they will again, or will all be killed off, we'll have to read and find out! 

But GRRM certainly hints that they may in his 1993 summary, in which he singles out Jon, Bran, and Arya as survivors:

The above also shows that as early as 1993, GRRM was thinking of Jon as a "child of Winterfell," which is interesting.

 

That really is the crux of the matter. John Snow may be "the bastard" but he is specifically identified as a child of Winterfell in the synopsis and of course explicitly called out as such by Aemon Targaryen.

This story is about the Starks of Winterfell and ultimately about their version of the Musgrave Ritual.  and that is going to be the real central mystery.

As to the Starks and Winter I still hold to a connection with the walkers, but reckon that the Night's King story is significant, not in foreshadowing his "return", far less the hollow pantomime villain of the mummers' version, but in its underlying story of a split among the Starks:

"He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.”

[Brad Stark]

8 hours ago, JNR said:

But GRRM certainly hints that they may in his 1993 summary, in which he singles out Jon, Bran, and Arya as survivors:

The above also shows that as early as 1993, GRRM was thinking of Jon as a "child of Winterfell," which is interesting.

When GRRM said they'd survive for three volumes, I assumed that meant they could die at the end of the third, not that they live happily ever after. 

[St Daga]

12 hours ago, JNR said:

But symbolically, they are consistently presented as @Feather Crystal suggested above: kings who contend with and defeat winter, however you interpret winter, as opposed to kings who use winter as a weapon against foes.

I can see both possibilities, and don't really feel that strongly either way, except I have always felt like "winter is coming" is a threat, something the Stark's no longer understand, and that the people around them certainly don't understand. I also think it's possible that "winter" is the name for something that is neither an Other or a season, but perhaps some great mythical beast, like a dragon or a great wolf, much like Fenrir, or even something from the sea. I see so many possibilities, sometimes my head spins. What I have decided over the years is that I am not going to get to deeply invested in any one idea, because if it's wrong, then so much else falls apart. I think this is the biggest danger of something like a million versions of RLJ. People who use it to build other theories, or even connect to the idea, are building with a shaky foundation, so I try not to put to much pressure on any idea/foundation I might think is possible. 

The one amazing thing about GRRM's writing is that he plants many paths, so it's easy to see how people follow one and think it's the only path, while some people follow another, and they think it's the only path. Me, I just like to meander and see where it get's me.

 

12 hours ago, JNR said:

I would really like to be able to interview a few First Men from that time, given a decent translator such as Tormund.  And lacking that, as a decent substitute, Thenns... who still seem to retain a great deal of the original First Men culture, language, etc., probably including the mythology and specific info of the Long Night.

What do they remember about it?  They, who remember so many other things from that time?

Interesting that you mentioning remembering because that idea is associated with House Royce, with their words "We Remember". Maybe we just need someone to translate their runic armor or sigil?

 

12 hours ago, JNR said:

I'm just saying that in the Long Night, I doubt the Starks were on the side of the Popsicles.  Which is a recurring idea in Heresy.

I would not mind if they were on the side of the Other's. It would be chilling and dark, but I think the Stark's probably rode the middle ground, and worked to help hold back the threats of both fire and ice. But I ain't betting my house on that idea, either...

 

12 hours ago, JNR said:

I think they were human beings struggling to survive, like all the other petty kings at that time, and they did survive (though many no doubt did not).  As to whether they will again, or will all be killed off, we'll have to read and find out! 

This sort of takes away from the idea that magic plays any part in the story or history of Westeros. That is something I have a hard time imagining. Regular human's just like everyone else ... except the Stark's don't feel quite like anyone else. Their castle isn't like any other castle. Their burial traditions are not quite like any other family. Their godswood is different than any other godswood that we see, with both bubbling hot pools and cold black pools with no apparent bottom. They are linked to skinchanging, which might be something that is a gift for more people than just the Stark's, but it's certainly not a "gift" shared by every human in Westeros. 

At the same time, I can see that GRRM is a man who writes about regular people doing extraordinary things, sometimes with hard work, sometimes with dumb luck, so that is also a theme in this story, and perhaps with the Stark's as well. 

 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

When GRRM said they'd survive for three volumes, I assumed that meant they could die at the end of the third, not that they live happily ever after. 

I agree. Surviving to the end of the series doesn't necessarily mean surviving past the end of the series. 

[JNR]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

This story is about the Starks of Winterfell and ultimately about their version of the Musgrave Ritual.  and that is going to be the real central mystery.

It's certainly at minimum a major element of it.  If in Heresy we've spent a disproportionate amount of time discussing the North, that's because the North deserves it.

And for the show just to blow the whole thing off, not even try to provide an explanation and instead just drop in a Dark Lord as a flimsy substitute, tells me that the show-runners never even perceived what you wrote above.   They almost literally never had a clue.

But we know better, and so does GRRM.  He built this mystery in a logical way, and though he has really let his story drift since his initial plan, he intends to conclude it properly.  I hope he does.

4 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

When GRRM said they'd survive for three volumes, I assumed that meant they could die at the end of the third, not that they live happily ever after. 

That -- what would happen to them post-canon -- is a completely different topic.

He's on record that his ending is bittersweet.  If he intended House Stark to be completely exterminated, I don't think he'd use that adjective.   But whatever characters live to the last page, his world is a harsh one, and they'll have ongoing struggles, no doubt.

22 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I have always felt like "winter is coming" is a threat, something the Stark's no longer understand

Hence the apt comparison to the Musgrave Ritual.

23 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This sort of takes away from the idea that magic plays any part in the story or history of Westeros.

Not at all.  The Popsicles are irrefutably creatures of magic, and the wights are too. 

The Long Night was therefore one of the most blatantly and overwhelmingly magical periods in the history of Westeros, in a literal sense (as opposed to the sense of "magical" that means "wonderful")... but it was also dark and nasty and devastating. 

27 minutes ago, St Daga said:

the Stark's don't feel quite like anyone else

True.  And they aren't quite like anyone else. 

As you say, we can easily make a list of major distinctions between them and other noble houses of Westeros.