Heresy 225 and the Snowflakes of Doom

[Melifeather]

GRRM is on record as saying the Starks and Lannisters are based upon the Yorks and Lancasters and their War of the Roses. Both were eventually supplanted by Henry Tudor who defeated Richard III, taking the throne by conquest and cemented his claim by marrying Elizabeth of York. I wonder if Harry the Heir is based upon Henry Tudor (Henry VII) with Sansa being his Elizabeth of York?

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

GRRM is on record as saying the Starks and Lannisters are based upon the Yorks and Lancasters and their War of the Roses. Both were eventually supplanted by Henry Tudor who defeated Richard III, taking the throne by conquest and cemented his claim by marrying Elizabeth of York. I wonder if Harry the Heir is based upon Henry Tudor (Henry VII) with Sansa being his Elizabeth of York?

All things are possible. Its pretty clear that the story is primarily about the children of Winterfell, but GRRM has also said that the ending will be bittersweet so the unravelling of the Musgrave Ritual could see the fall of House Stark even if the children themselves survive. 

[St Daga]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

5 hours ago, St Daga said:

This sort of takes away from the idea that magic plays any part in the story or history of Westeros.

Not at all.  The Popsicles are irrefutably creatures of magic, and the wights are too. 

The Other's seem to definitely be connected to magic, but I meant magic in regards to the Stark's. You had stated they were just regular people, "human beings" "like all the other petty kings", err, just like everyone else, managing to survive where other's did not. Sorry, I was confused by where you seemed to be leading.

18 hours ago, JNR said:

I think they were human beings struggling to survive, like all the other petty kings at that time, and they did survive (though many no doubt did not). 

 

 

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

GRRM is on record as saying the Starks and Lannisters are based upon the Yorks and Lancasters and their War of the Roses. Both were eventually supplanted by Henry Tudor who defeated Richard III, taking the throne by conquest and cemented his claim by marrying Elizabeth of York. I wonder if Harry the Heir is based upon Henry Tudor (Henry VII) with Sansa being his Elizabeth of York?

Henry Tudor did have a claim to the throne through the Duke of Lancaster and the Plantagenet line, meaning he had Lancaster blood. His mother was a Beaufort, who was (eventually) descended from John of Gaunt, who founded the House of Lancaster. If the parallel works, then Harry the Heir would need to be descended in some way from House Lannister. If his marriage to a Stark (York) is meant to solve things. I do think the Henry/Harry thing might be a clue, but it's hard for me to see Harry the Heir on the throne of Westeros, but I guess GRRM has alluded to the fact we would be surprised by who sits the throne in the end, if anyone actually does.

Now, there are hints of some Stark blood in the Vale, although I don't know if it can be tied to Harrold Hardyng with what we currently know. But if he has Stark blood, then perhaps he needs to marry Lannister blood, the blood, which would be an inversion of Henry Tudor (of Lancaster blood) marrying Elizabeth of York. Still, that would need to tied Harry the Heir to the throne of Westeros to make the York/Stark and Lancaster/Lannister civil war story play out. Does that hint at Myrcella in a possible marriage?

I think there are several possibilities, and currently the text (Littlefinger) does want to pair Harry the Heir and Sansa, and so your speculation  might be very correct. 

I always wonder how far GRRM means to take these historical or mythological references into his own text?  Both House Lancaster and House York carried House Planatagenet blood. I have speculated that if this works out in this story, House Stark and House Lannister might both carry Targaryen blood. Of course, there is no proof of that at all, so it remains cracked pottery, but it might make sense of the historical implications of Stark and Lannister warring over a Targaryen throne. Even though Robb Stark wasn't much interested in the Iron Throne, at least I don't think. I think he wanted to bring "death and destruction" down on House Lannister, which is something Jon Snow expresses. The throne was irrelevant to that goal, but it might come into play simply because the Lannister's currently hold the throne of Westeros (even if they claim a Baratheon name). Such a tangled web!

[Melifeather]

Ned Stark's children don't have to all die in order for House Stark to dissolve. 

Jon could become an undead thing like Coldhands and choose to remain in the north.

Sansa could marry Harry and be Elizabeth to King Henry.

Arya could remain with the FM in Braavos.

Bran could remain as a greenseer in the cave of skulls.

And Rickon - well, Wyman Manderly's intentions are giving me mixed signals. I think the poor kid will end up dead.

[Black Crow]

I think that the big mystery surrounding Rickon at the moment is why he is in the story at all.

There's no hint of his existence in the 1993 synopsis, so we have to ask why GRRM decided to introduce him in the first place? What purpose is behind his addition?

[Melifeather]

46 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I think that the big mystery surrounding Rickon at the moment is why he is in the story at all.

There's no hint of his existence in the 1993 synopsis, so we have to ask why GRRM decided to introduce him in the first place? What purpose is behind his addition?

Maybe Bran and Rickon are versions of the princes in the tower? Princes Edward V and Richard of Shrewsbury were presumably murdered at the ages of 12 and 9 by Lord Protector Richard, Duke of Gloucester. Edward was to be king, but Richard took the crown for himself and the boys disappeared. I think @PrettyPig may be right that Wyman Manderly wants to present the appearance of protecting Rickon, but his real desire is to seize Winterfell for himself.

[Melifeather]

Jon Arryn is a possible candidate for the "Kingmaker" and Earl of Warrick. Warrick was a cousin to the brothers King Edward IV and Richard III, and I suppose first cousin one removed to the young princes Edward V and Richard of Shrewsbury. Even though there's no evidence that Jon Arryn was related to either the Lannisters or the Starks, he was a father-figure to Ned and Robert. Ned would be the stand-in for Edward IV and Wayman Manderly is standing in as Richard III even though he's not related to Ned.

Just spitballing....

[St Daga]

38 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think @PrettyPig may be right that Wyman Manderly wants to present the appearance of protecting Rickon, but his real desire is to seize Winterfell for himself.

Do you know where I could find her thoughts on this? I have long felt like Wyman is not to be trusted, that he might have been partly behind the Red Wedding and even had something to do with the battle outside the gates of Winterfell. It would not surprise me if both the Bolton's and Manderley's want the power the Stark's have, and initially aligned themselves to achieve the downfall of House Stark, and are now skirmishing amongst themselves to see who comes out on top.

 

33 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Jon Arryn is a possible candidate for the "Kingmaker" and Earl of Warrick. Warrick was a cousin to the brothers King Edward IV and Richard III, and I suppose first cousin one removed to the young princes Edward V and Richard of Shrewsbury. Even though there's no evidence that Jon Arryn was related to either the Lannisters or the Starks, he was a father-figure to Ned and Robert. Ned would be the stand-in for Edward IV and Wayman Manderly is standing in as Richard III even though he's not related to Ned.

Just spitballing....

Perhaps so. I like the kingmaker concept for Arryn. He put Robert on the throne, and then helped rule behind the throne. Even history is a bit vague on Warwick, as far as his motivations and goals, and his changing of sides. But, if his role as kingmaker is to play out as Jon Arryn in our story, do you think it could mean that when Robert's reign failed to sail smoothly, that Jon Arryn could have been planning on using Ned as his next monarch on the throne. It would tie him nicely to his two wards. Wards that I think he manipulated to pull down the Targaryen dynasty.

I guess Tywin could be seen as another candidate for kingmaker?

 

[Melifeather]

50 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Do you know where I could find her thoughts on this? I have long felt like Wyman is not to be trusted, that he might have been partly behind the Red Wedding and even had something to do with the battle outside the gates of Winterfell. It would not surprise me if both the Bolton's and Manderley's want the power the Stark's have, and initially aligned themselves to achieve the downfall of House Stark, and are now skirmishing amongst themselves to see who comes out on top.

 

Perhaps so. I like the kingmaker concept for Arryn. He put Robert on the throne, and then helped rule behind the throne. Even history is a bit vague on Warwick, as far as his motivations and goals, and his changing of sides. But, if his role as kingmaker is to play out as Jon Arryn in our story, do you think it could mean that when Robert's reign failed to sail smoothly, that Jon Arryn could have been planning on using Ned as his next monarch on the throne. It would tie him nicely to his two wards. Wards that I think he manipulated to pull down the Targaryen dynasty.

I guess Tywin could be seen as another candidate for kingmaker?

 

I cannot locate Pretty Pig's thoughts about Waymar.  I just remember having a discussion with her. As for Tywin, he's definitely inspired of the Kingmaker also.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go off on a tangent. I was just trying to find clues about the possible outcome of House Stark - Rickon in particular - by returning to the War of the Roses.

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think that the big mystery surrounding Rickon at the moment is why he is in the story at all.

There's no hint of his existence in the 1993 synopsis, so we have to ask why GRRM decided to introduce him in the first place? What purpose is behind his addition?

GRRM wanted a sense of wildness and wolf like nature to the Starks, but that didn't fit with who he wanted any of the other Stark children to be, so it is exemplified in Rickon.   Also, he wanted some of his Stark children to die to keep the reader in suspense, adding another kid to kill off does that.   If he is ending House Stark, he doesn't want people wondering why there were so few Starks to begin with.  Killing 4 male heirs makes more sense than 3.

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

The Other's seem to definitely be connected to magic, but I meant magic in regards to the Stark's. You had stated they were just regular people, "human beings" "like all the other petty kings", err, just like everyone else, managing to survive where other's did not. Sorry, I was confused by where you seemed to be leading.

 

 

Henry Tudor did have a claim to the throne through the Duke of Lancaster and the Plantagenet line, meaning he had Lancaster blood. His mother was a Beaufort, who was (eventually) descended from John of Gaunt, who founded the House of Lancaster. If the parallel works, then Harry the Heir would need to be descended in some way from House Lannister. If his marriage to a Stark (York) is meant to solve things. I do think the Henry/Harry thing might be a clue, but it's hard for me to see Harry the Heir on the throne of Westeros, but I guess GRRM has alluded to the fact we would be surprised by who sits the throne in the end, if anyone actually does.

Now, there are hints of some Stark blood in the Vale, although I don't know if it can be tied to Harrold Hardyng with what we currently know. But if he has Stark blood, then perhaps he needs to marry Lannister blood, the blood, which would be an inversion of Henry Tudor (of Lancaster blood) marrying Elizabeth of York. Still, that would need to tied Harry the Heir to the throne of Westeros to make the York/Stark and Lancaster/Lannister civil war story play out. Does that hint at Myrcella in a possible marriage?

I think there are several possibilities, and currently the text (Littlefinger) does want to pair Harry the Heir and Sansa, and so your speculation  might be very correct. 

I always wonder how far GRRM means to take these historical or mythological references into his own text?  Both House Lancaster and House York carried House Planatagenet blood. I have speculated that if this works out in this story, House Stark and House Lannister might both carry Targaryen blood. Of course, there is no proof of that at all, so it remains cracked pottery, but it might make sense of the historical implications of Stark and Lannister warring over a Targaryen throne. Even though Robb Stark wasn't much interested in the Iron Throne, at least I don't think. I think he wanted to bring "death and destruction" down on House Lannister, which is something Jon Snow expresses. The throne was irrelevant to that goal, but it might come into play simply because the Lannister's currently hold the throne of Westeros (even if they claim a Baratheon name). Such a tangled web!

I've wondered if Royce has some Stark blood, which could explain why the Others dueled him one on one in the prologue.   House Stark has Royce blood in their tree, so it makes sense. 

[St Daga]

6 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I've wondered if Royce has some Stark blood, which could explain why the Others dueled him one on one in the prologue.   House Stark has Royce blood in their tree, so it makes sense. 

I think it's possible although there is no proof. Mostly it seems like the Stark's like to marry within their own kingdom of the north, but it makes sense to me that if they were going to marry outside of their region, that they would look to marry into houses that claim descent from the First Men or into houses that worship the old gods. The Royce's are First Men, but it's unclear what gods they worship. They do have several members that are knighted, so that could hint that they follow the Faith of the Seven. Still, that doesn't rule a marriage out, especially with the first men tie, and might indicate  why Waymar and Jon fit a similar body type and look.

[St Daga]

6 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I cannot locate Pretty Pig's thoughts about Waymar.  I just remember having a discussion with her. As for Tywin, he's definitely inspired of the Kingmaker also.

I will try to do a little searching, and see if I can find something on Wyman. I just find him untrustworthy, he was very sly in his dealings with Davos, and now has Davos doing his bidding, when he has all but actually told the realm that he had Davos killed. What is to stop him from killing Davos after he finds Rickon?

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM wanted a sense of wildness and wolf like nature to the Starks, but that didn't fit with who he wanted any of the other Stark children to be, so it is exemplified in Rickon.   Also, he wanted some of his Stark children to die to keep the reader in suspense, adding another kid to kill off does that.   If he is ending House Stark, he doesn't want people wondering why there were so few Starks to begin with.  Killing 4 male heirs makes more sense than 3.

That makes sense to a degree - my reservation being whether the timelines will allow Rickon to develop his savagery far enough to get dangerous before the end.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I've wondered if Royce has some Stark blood, which could explain why the Others dueled him one on one in the prologue.   House Stark has Royce blood in their tree, so it makes sense. 

I think its far more simple than that. The one to one reflects their human origins.

[Brad Stark]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think its far more simple than that. The one to one reflects their human origins.

But they didn't duel the wildlings, they just froze them outright.   And we don't know what happened to Gared, but he was probably treated differently than Waymar.  Waymar is the only duel in the admittedly few times we see Others. 

The world book has Lorra Royce as Beron Starks wife, which is what I referred to.  We also have Benedict Royce taking Jocelyn Stark as a wife, but he had no sons, so she isn't Waymar's ancestor.  We don't have much of a family tree for the Royce's, and you argue if this was a hidden clue GRRM would have given us one, but they likely have Stark blood. 

[Melifeather]

46 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

But they didn't duel the wildlings, they just froze them outright.   And we don't know what happened to Gared, but he was probably treated differently than Waymar.  Waymar is the only duel in the admittedly few times we see Others. 

The world book has Lorra Royce as Beron Starks wife, which is what I referred to.  We also have Benedict Royce taking Jocelyn Stark as a wife, but he had no sons, so she isn't Waymar's ancestor.  We don't have much of a family tree for the Royce's, and you argue if this was a hidden clue GRRM would have given us one, but they likely have Stark blood. 

I don't think GRRM took the time to give every major character a full family tree. It's time consuming and likely unnecessary. If the ancestors aren't part of the story, then it's irrelevant.

[alienarea]

7 hours ago, St Daga said:

I will try to do a little searching, and see if I can find something on Wyman. I just find him untrustworthy, he was very sly in his dealings with Davos, and now has Davos doing his bidding, when he has all but actually told the realm that he had Davos killed. What is to stop him from killing Davos after he finds Rickon?

All Manderly really needs is Shaggydog's pelt. With this, he can pass off any child remotely resembling Rickon as Rickon.

Nobody remembers how Rickon looked like except for his siblings, and Rickon disappeared at a young age so any change can be explained.

[JNR]

18 hours ago, St Daga said:

You had stated they were just regular people, "human beings" "like all the other petty kings", err, just like everyone else, managing to survive where other's did not.

I think they were not commanding the Others and wights in the Long Night, any more than they are this time around.  They were struggling to survive, like all other human beings in the North at that time.

Yet there are still clear differences between the Starks and other Northerners.  There were then, too.

[JNR]

18 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think that the big mystery surrounding Rickon at the moment is why he is in the story at all.

There's no hint of his existence in the 1993 synopsis, so we have to ask why GRRM decided to introduce him in the first place? What purpose is behind his addition?

If any.  We know GRRM in some cases has regretted fleshing out his world quite as much as he did.

I recall him asking himself rhetorically in an interview if it was really necessary for him to do as many Great Houses as that.  "Wouldn't five have been enough?" or words to that effect.

And I see quite a bit of AFFC/ADWD as his attempt to tell us a little more about the Ironborn and Dornish as a result. 

But like many others, I'd rather that instead of building his world more -- a thing he can't resist as a rule -- he'd pursue the original story, about the original characters.  I think Quentyn's entire plotline in ADWD could have been deleted with very little harm to the book.