Heresy 225 and the Snowflakes of Doom

[Melifeather]

33 minutes ago, JNR said:

If any.  We know GRRM in some cases has regretted fleshing out his world quite as much as he did.

I recall him asking himself rhetorically in an interview if it was really necessary for him to do as many Great Houses as that.  "Wouldn't five have been enough?" or words to that effect.

And I see quite a bit of AFFC/ADWD as his attempt to tell us a little more about the Ironborn and Dornish as a result. 

But like many others, I'd rather that instead of building his world more -- a thing he can't resist as a rule -- he'd pursue the original story, about the original characters.  I think Quentyn's entire plotline in ADWD could have been deleted with very little harm to the book.

Well, in my opinion the Ironborn and the Dornish arcs are very necessary to demonstrating the wheel of time. The Ironborn are repeating the events of the Targaryens and Blackfyres while the Martells are repeating the events of the Lannisters. The parallels are striking and the outcomes to the events are the reverse -  history is being un-done.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

I think they were not commanding the Others and wights in the Long Night, any more than they are this time around.  They were struggling to survive, like all other human beings in the North at that time.

Yet there are still clear differences between the Starks and other Northerners.  There were then, too.

Ok, I get what you are saying now. I do not think the Starks were commanding the Other's during the first long night at all, but when the Other's were defeated, then they perhaps become like any other vanquished enemy. You subjugate them, make them kneel to you, make them your vassal in a sense. If we consider the Lands of Always Winter as a kingdom of it's own, and the Other's are it's people, who all warred against you. They are a bit like Balon Greyjoy and the Iron Born. In defeat, Balon bent the knee to Robert while Ned took a son as hostage, and as long as the Lord of Winterfell held Theon, the Iron Born behaved for the most part, and I think Balon could have been called on by Robert to serve as a wartime navy, if needed. Speculation on whether Balon would have followed Robert's orders, however. 

So, while working in the realm of grand speculation, what if the Stark's (or in combination with another family, perhaps the Dayne's) defeated the Other's, and forced them not only back to their "home" but also forced them to bend the knee. And for their good behavior, held a hostage of the Other's. Maybe this could tell us what is in the crypts that is feels like "an icy breath"? And, while holding a hostage of the Other's, who have bent the knee to you, perhaps the Stark's always feel as if they could call this army of Other's forward in times of need. That might make some sense of "winter is coming" as a threat of the Other's, even though they are not absolutely aligned with the Starks, now or in the past. And how the Stark's have forgotten what it means and how it should work, but little hints of "the Other's take ..." especially while in the crypts or in Winterfell give those curses just a bit more power.

We also have "there must always be a Stark in Wintefell" to question the meaning of that, along with "winter is coming". Are these phrases meant to work together, or do they involve separate issues for the Stark's.

And while I am forming a pot that's bound to crack, we also could question, if my above speculation about the Stark's holding the Other's as subjugates and perhaps holding a hostage of theirs, what if the Stark's lose that hostage like they did with Theon. The wrath of the Iron Born has been bitter for the Stark's and the north in general. What would the wroth of the Other's be like?

ETA: Perhaps this idea has already been expressed on the heresy threads, and if so, I apologize for expressing it as a new idea. There are rarely new idea's in this fandom anymore because most things have been questioned a time or two or more. I have tried to go back and read the older threads, but there is so much information in them, I sometimes feel overwhelmed.

[JNR]

41 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

the Ironborn and the Dornish arcs are very necessary to demonstrating the wheel of time. The Ironborn are repeating the events of the Targaryens and Blackfyres while the Martells are repeating the events of the Lannisters. The parallels are striking and the outcomes to the events are the reverse -  history is being un-done.

Well, maybe we see Quentyn's ADWD plotline in different ways.  I would sum it up like this:

"Doran sends Quentyn to find Dany in Essos, talk her into marrying him, and then bring her back to Dorne... but while Quentyn eventually finds her, he gets nowhere with her romantically and instead accidentally releases two dragons while simultaneously getting himself killed."

How does that parallel the Lannisters from some earlier period? 

Or do you see Quentyn's story in some different way?

[Black Crow]

Quentyn... who...?

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

All Manderly really needs is Shaggydog's pelt. With this, he can pass off any child remotely resembling Rickon as Rickon.

Nobody remembers how Rickon looked like except for his siblings, and Rickon disappeared at a young age so any change can be explained.

That would put Manderley with his fRickon on as shaky ground as Roose and Ramsay are with their fArya. People doubt, people ask questions. And while a pelt could be enough, would people not wonder why the direwolf needed to die? After all, people in the north seem well aware of the Stark children each having their own loyal direwolf, so a live wolf would make for a better claim. I think that Manderley could want Rickon to manipulate the young boy and therefore Manderley has all the power of the north, and he would think he probably can manipulate and control a 4 or 5 year old boy. Like a shadow government.  But Rickon doesn't seem to be the average child and I don't know if he will be easy to control. 

But at the same time, I could see this possibly working. Even if people question fArya, no one outright says this to Roose, so it's possible that even if people doubted that Manderley had the real Rickon, people might not actually question him about it. I guess he could say the wolf died by some accident or make up some other story to explain why the beast died. And I would suspect that the majority of the north would rather be ruled by a shadow Manderley in charge rather than a shadow Roose.

[Melifeather]

54 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, maybe we see Quentyn's ADWD plotline in different ways.  I would sum it up like this:

"Doran sends Quentyn to find Dany in Essos, talk her into marrying him, and then bring her back to Dorne... but while Quentyn eventually finds her, he gets nowhere with her romantically and instead accidentally releases two dragons while simultaneously getting himself killed."

How does that parallel the Lannisters from some earlier period? 

Or do you see Quentyn's story in some different way?

Doran's gout is a physical manifestation of Tywin's internal anger that motivates him whereas Doran's pain is what causes him to be overly cautious. Tywin's plans are executed with military precision while Doran's plans rot like overripe fruit. Tywin's two main goals in life were to make Jaime Lord of Casterly Rock and for Cersei to be queen. Doran's main plan in life was to make Arianne is heir and for Quentyn to be a king. 

Arianne is Doran's first born child. Dornish custom allows for daughter heirs if they are the eldest, but Arianne was unsure that her father would follow Dornish custom so she decided to force it with her plot to crown Myrcella. She knew the various houses of Dorne are angry with Doran's overly cautious nature. They want revenge for the deaths of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon. Arianne hoped to tap into that desire by causing a war with Kings Landing, thinking it would cause all the families to flock to her cause and overthrow her own father. One of her friends (I'm looking at you Drey) pissed all over her plans and tipped off Doran, foiling the plot. Later Arianne learns that her father had always considered her his heir, but he also dallied with making her a queen. He sent Oberyn to make a pact with Willem Darry to marry Arianne to Viserys and Quentyn to Daenerys. After Viserys death and after learning about Young Griff, his plans changed. He sent Arianne to Young Griff, which is an inverted repeat of the marriage between Dorne and the Rhoynar (Nymeria), but Young Griff will probably refuse thereby undoing another historical event. Arianne represents Dorne and Young Griff the Rhoynar since that is where he arrived from.

Doran's plans for his children are a parallel to Tywin's plans for Cersei and Jaime. Tywin fully planned to pass over his eldest child and make the younger his heir, but he was successful in making Cersei a queen. I believe the whole Rebellion was Tywin's plan specifically to achieve that goal. Arianne's abduction of Myrcella is a repeat of Tywin's abduction of Lyanna. Arianne had her group of seven including a "milk brother", a Kingsguard with someone else wearing his armor, and a Gerold Dayne. Tywin had his own group of seven and included milk siblings Cersei and Jaime, a man wearing armor that looked like Rhaegar's, and their whole group copied a detachment that had a Gerold and a Dayne. Arianne used Myrcella to force her inheritance. Tywin used Lyanna to force a Rebellion in order to make Cersei a queen. Gerold Dayne attacked Myrcella cutting her ear off, but she survived, while Lyanna was "gored by a boar" and died. The "boar" was Sumner Crakehall whose sigil is a boar. Lyanna's death scene is mirrored later by Robert's laying in his bed of blood, gored by a boar, and attended by three Kingsguard.

Daenerys refused Quentyn's proposal telling him that he's too late. The whole situation with Arianne and Young Griff along with Daenerys and Quentyn is a parallel and a reversal of the Dance of the Dragons. When Rhaenyra lost the Dance of the Dragons, Aegon II fed her to his dragon Sunfyre. This was reversed with the sun's son. Not only was Quentyn set on fire, but he was consumed by dragons.

GRRMs short story The Princess and the Queen actually details the Dance of the Dragons. It features an elder daughter (Rhaenyra) fighting over the line of succession against her younger half-brother Aegon II, who initially wasn't expecting to inherit and didn't even really want it until his mother convinced him he had the better claim. Arianne and Cersei are both elder sisters concerned about their inheritance.

Daenerys is a younger sister who ends up a queen. It's her position as a queen that ties her to Arianne and Cersei, but not her genes as a Targaryen. The Greyjoys are parallels to the Targaryens, but more so the Blackfyre side. Victarion's defeat of the Shield Islands is a repeat echo of the Blackfyre Rebellions. Victarion is a parallel of Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers while Euron is very much Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers reborn.

[JNR]

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

Perhaps this idea has already been expressed on the heresy threads, and if so, I apologize for expressing it as a new idea.

The concept that there is one or more Popsicles in the Stark crypts, held hostage for thousands of years since the Long Night, is an interesting one that I have never read on this or any other site.

It does beg the question whether the Popsicles are immortal, of course.  But since they are plainly magical creatures, not biological ones, they may well be immortal.

I doubt a wight would ever die in a conventional sense, either, if you just tied it up and left it somewhere... although we know it can be hacked apart or destroyed to the point where it loses its semi-consciousness:

Quote

Summer dug up a severed arm, black and covered with hoarfrost, its fingers opening and closing as it pulled itself across the frozen snow. There was still enough meat on it to fill his empty belly, and after that was done he cracked the arm bones for the marrow. Only then did the arm remember it was dead.

I do wonder if it would be possible for such a secret as that to be forgotten, though, no matter how much time went by.  Though since the lowest level is apparently collapsed or partly so, I guess you could argue that thousands of years may have gone by since anyone has seen it.

[alienarea]

7 hours ago, JNR said:

The concept that there is one or more Popsicles in the Stark crypts, held hostage for thousands of years since the Long Night, is an interesting one that I have never read on this or any other site.

It does beg the question whether the Popsicles are immortal, of course.  But since they are plainly magical creatures, not biological ones, they may well be immortal.

I doubt a wight would ever die in a conventional sense, either, if you just tied it up and left it somewhere... although we know it can be hacked apart or destroyed to the point where it loses its semi-consciousness:

I do wonder if it would be possible for such a secret as that to be forgotten, though, no matter how much time went by.  Though since the lowest level is apparently collapsed or partly so, I guess you could argue that thousands of years may have gone by since anyone has seen it.

We know from Old Nan that the Night's King was a Stark. We do not exactly know what happened to him after he was "taken down".

Maybe he was the one sacrificed in Bran's vision, and was buried and warded with iron in the lowest levels of the crypts because, despite his deeds, he was a Stark.

And now the iron has rotted and his bones revived with blue eyes because of his corpse queen (the ice spider goddess? Kiss of the Spider Woman?).

Is this why the snow storm in ADwD is moving towards Winterfell?

And will the threat of the Others end with the remains of the Night's King returning to the Land of Always Winter?

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, JNR said:

The concept that there is one or more Popsicles in the Stark crypts, held hostage for thousands of years since the Long Night, is an interesting one that I have never read on this or any other site.

It does beg the question whether the Popsicles are immortal, of course.  But since they are plainly magical creatures, not biological ones, they may well be immortal.

 

I've never heard the suggestion either, but I would say that its entirely possible, with the significant caveat that we wouldn't be talking about a demon made of ice and snow, but about a spirit, a ghost if you like, imprisoned there or hiding there without a body.

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, alienarea said:

We know from Old Nan that the Night's King was a Stark. We do not exactly know what happened to him after he was "taken down".

Maybe he was the one sacrificed in Bran's vision, and was buried and warded with iron in the lowest levels of the crypts because, despite his deeds, he was a Stark.

And now the iron has rotted and his bones revived with blue eyes because of his corpse queen (the ice spider goddess? Kiss of the Spider Woman?).

Is this why the snow storm in ADwD is moving towards Winterfell?

And will the threat of the Others end with the remains of the Night's King returning to the Land of Always Winter?

Bael is mentioned in a 17th century occult book as one of seven princes of the Underworld. The name is drawn from the Canaanite diety Baal mentioned in the Hebrew Bible as the primary diety of the Phoenicians. While his Semitic predecessor was depicted as a man or a bull, the demon Baal was in grimoire tradition said to appear in the forms of a man, cat, toad, or combinations thereof. An illustration in Collin de Plancy's 1818 book Dictionnaire Infernal rather curiously placed the heads of the three creatures onto a set of spider legs. A link to more info on Baal.

There are a number of inspirations drawn from the mythology of Bael and GRRM's Bael. Not only that, but the connection to the number seven as well as three heads. It seems as if the three headed Bael spider, and the three heads of the dragon may be two sides of the same coin, yet both are connected to the Faith of the Seven.

Keep in mind that Bael disguised himself as a singer in order to gain entrance to Winterfell and impregnate the Lord's daughter. In the story it talks about the winter roses of Winterfell coming into bloom, which in actuality may be a symbolic reference to the daughter coming of age and getting her first period.

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Keep in mind that Bael disguised himself as a singer in order to gain entrance to Winterfell and impregnate the Lord's daughter. In the story it talks about the winter roses of Winterfell coming into bloom, which in actuality may be a symbolic reference to the daughter coming of age and getting her first period.

Another take on this is that Bael is an anagram for Abel.

Quote

What was the mark God put on Cain?

The curse was the result of Cain murdering his brother, Abel, and lying about the murder to God. When Cain spilled his brother's blood, the earth became cursed as soon as the blood hit the ground. In a sense, the earth was left "drinking Abel's blood".

A Cain and Abel story could have more to do with the split within the Starks of old. 

[Melifeather]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Another take on this is that Bael is an anagram for Abel.

A Cain and Abel story could have more to do with the split within the Starks of old. 

Especially since Bael is a Canaanite god. The Canaanites are the descendants of Cain.

Mance took the name Abel when he infiltrated Winterfell in Dance, which if you think about it is the inversion to Cain's Bael.

I do like the idea of the Nights King being entombed in the lower level and warded with iron.

[JNR]

8 hours ago, alienarea said:

We know from Old Nan that the Night's King was a Stark.

Well, we know that's her preferred version of the tale.

However, she herself has run across at least six other versions, in which he was not a Stark.

Objectively speaking, it's clearly an old tale, handed down for thousands of years, which like many others is likely to blend reality and bullshit in some uncertain proportion.   And Old Nan has proven inaccurate on other concepts, like the nature of giants (who don't wear boots or wield swords).

8 hours ago, alienarea said:

And now the iron has rotted and his bones revived with blue eyes

An evocative image; however, if corpses south of the Wall were doing that, you'd think it would be happening on a mass scale.  I'd expect wights attacking humans left, right, and center from Oldtown to Castle Black.  But there hasn't been a single one.

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I would say that its entirely possible, with the significant caveat that we wouldn't be talking about a demon made of ice and snow, but about a spirit, a ghost if you like, imprisoned there or hiding there without a body.

How do you know?

It seems to me a Popsicle might remain a Popsicle indefinitely, if it's cold enough... and as St. Daga pointed out, even the highest level of the crypts is conspicuously colder than the surface. 

As you go deeper, it may well get colder still.  How cold, I wonder, is the oldest and deepest level?

Quote

The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream.

One could reasonably interpret this dream as supporting the theory of an imprisoned Popsicle.

[LynnS]

57 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Especially since Bael is a Canaanite god. The Canaanites are the descendants of Cain.

Mance took the name Abel when he infiltrated Winterfell in Dance, which if you think about it is the inversion to Cain's Bael.

I do like the idea of the Nights King being entombed in the lower level and warded with iron.

I suppose, very simply, if you substitute Baal for Bael/Abel; then it was the god who stole the daughter of Winterfell and hid her away. 

[Melifeather]

14 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I suppose, very simply, if you substitute Baal for Bael/Abel; then it was the god who stole the daughter of Winterfell and hid her away. 

The word "living in the crypts" seems to imply that people thought she was dead. There are a list of maidens that have disappeared or people thought they were dead: Ashara, Sansa, and Arya. Ashara is Wylla, Sansa is Alayne, and Arya is "No One".

The 13th Lord Commander saw a female Other from atop the Wall. I think she was simply a wildling. The wildling tradition of stealing a maiden must be a First Men tradition. When the Red Wanderer, aka the Thief, is visible in the Moonmaid constellation, it's a good time to steal a maiden. This seems to echo the story of Duran Godsgrief who stole and married Elenei from her diety parents. Having the diety Bael steal a human daughter seems to be payback - or the other side of the same daughter stealing coin.

Ironically, the Andal way of "paying" for daughters by way of making marriage alliances is yet another flip of the coin.

[LynnS]

34 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The word "living in the crypts" seems to imply that people thought she was dead.

That's sounds right to me.  In any event, the simplest explanation is that Howland hid her away.  Maybe there was a kidnap attempt and someone honorable intervened and returned her to Ned.  We don't know that Howland was with Ned the whole time.  He could just as easily have taken her to a place of safety where nobody would dare to tread.  I also have the sense that she died on the Quiet Isle where she was taken when her time came.  A place where the Silent Sisters could tend to her body and return her to Winterfell.  Of course, the brothers are also sworn to silence, so not a word about her being there at all.  

Did Robert know where she was found?  Possibly.  Why wouldn't Ned disclose that to him?
 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

"She was more beautiful than that," the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna's face, as if he could will her back to life. Finally he rose, made awkward by his weight. "Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?" His voice was hoarse with remembered grief. "She deserved more than darkness …"

"She was a Stark of Winterfell," Ned said quietly. "This is her place."

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

The brow of the hill was crowned by a low wall of unmortared stone, encircling a cluster of large buildings; the windmill, its sails creaking as they turned, the cloisters where the brothers slept and the common hall where they took their meals, a wooden sept for prayer and meditation. The sept had windows of leaded glass, wide doors carved with likenesses of the Mother and the Father, and a seven-sided steeple with a walk on top. Behind it was a vegetable garden where some older brothers were pulling weeds. Brother Narbert led the visitors around a chestnut tree to a wooden door set in the side of the hill.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

By the time the readings were completed, the last of the food had been cleared away by the novices whose task it was to serve. Most were boys near Podrick's age, or younger, but there were grown men as well, amongst them the big gravedigger they had encountered on the hill, who walked with the awkward lurching gait of one half-crippled. As the hall emptied, the Elder Brother asked Narbert to show Podrick and Ser Hyle to their pallets in the cloisters. "You will not mind sharing a cell, I hope? It is not large, but you will find it comfortable."

 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

"We have some modest cottages set aside for the women who visit us, be they noble ladies or common village girls," said the Elder Brother. "They are not oft used, but we keep them clean and dry. Lady Brienne, would you allow me to show you the way?"

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Brienne VI

"Yes, brother." Brienne unpinned her hair and shook it out. "Do you have no women here?"

"Not at present," said Narbert. "Those women who do visit come to us sick or hurt, or heavy with child. The Seven have blessed our Elder Brother with healing hands. He has restored many a man to health that even the maesters could not cure, and many a woman too."

 

[Direwolf Blitzer]

On 7/17/2019 at 3:26 PM, Black Crow said:

There's no hint of his existence in the 1993 synopsis, so we have to ask why GRRM decided to introduce him in the first place? What purpose is behind his addition?

Rickon seems a very likely candidate for the next Stark. Easy for GRRM to end the story with a young Rickon back in Winterfell rebuilding with some Manderly or Royce as his regent. Strikes me as an easy out, story-wise. and it has that vague hopeful tone about it. We don't know what kind of leader Rickon will be, he's only a child, etc. Jojen told us the wolves would return, remember.

 

Edited to add: @JNR, I join you in the anti-Quentyn chrous. Quentyn delenda est. Hundreds of pages to kill a not-even-the-heir and let some dragons loose. I'm no author, but there's gotta be a more economical way to reach that end state.

Re: Immortal popsicles: I think the text strongly suggests that they are immortal, just not always corporeal. Tormund tells Jon that they never see them in the daytime, but they're never far. How does he know? Why does the think that? That they can only take physical shape in the cold and dark seems the most likely answer. After all, they only invaded Westeros during the Long Night. 

[Melifeather]

36 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That's sounds right to me.  In any event, the simplest explanation is that Howland hid her away.  Maybe there was a kidnap attempt and someone honorable intervened and returned her to Ned.  We don't know that Howland was with Ned the whole time.  He could just as easily have taken her to a place of safety where nobody would dare to tread.  I also have the sense that she died on the Quiet Isle where she was taken when her time came.  A place where the Silent Sisters could tend to her body and return her to Winterfell.  Of course, the brothers are also sworn to silence, so not a word about her being there at all.  

Did Robert know where she was found?  Possibly.  Why wouldn't Ned disclose that to him?

I don't believe Lyanna was ever pregnant, even though I do believe she was raped multiple times. When Bloodraven reset the wheel of time during the tourney at Harrenhal, Lyanna and Ashara's fates got swapped. Ashara "danced" with many men. After the wheel of time reset this got replayed with Lyanna as her being raped multiple times. Lyanna's fate was to get pregnant by Robert, but he made the moves on Ashara instead. Ned came upon them before the deed was completed. Ned became Ashara's hero, because he rescued her from a man she didn't want, but then the whole situation went all "pear-shaped" and the two ended up having sex. Ned probably wanted to do the honorable thing, but Lyanna's disappearance became his immediate focus - and then his brother and father were executed...etc, etc. 

I do, however, like that you've brought up the Quiet Isle, because Ned and Ashara had to meet somewhere in order for her to be the Fisherman's Daughter. 

It's said that Ned crossed the Mountains of the Moon on his way to Winterfell to call his banners, and then we know he crossed the Bite to White Harbor. The assumption is that Ned rode north overland to cross the Mountains of the Moon, but if you look at the map the mountain range runs at a diagonal from northwest to southeast. The other ranges that run from the southwest to the northeast are called The Fingers. If Ned crossed the Mountains of the Moon, then his plan was to catch a ship in Saltpans. The Quiet Isle is nearby and sometimes ships leaving Saltpans will stop at the Quiet Isle to drop off or pickup, so its reasonable to conclude that this is where they met. 

[Melifeather]

36 minutes ago, Direwolf Blitzer said:

Re: Immortal popsicles: I think the text strongly suggests that they are immortal, just not always corporeal. Tormund tells Jon that they never see them in the daytime, but they're never far. How does he know? Why does the think that? That they can only take physical shape in the cold and dark seems the most likely answer. After all, they only invaded Westeros during the Long Night. 

I like the idea of immortal white walkers, but what prevents their spirit from drifting away when they're not within their icy exterior? Are they wedded to the sentinel trees?

[Matthew.]

9 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I've never heard the suggestion either, but I would say that its entirely possible, with the significant caveat that we wouldn't be talking about a demon made of ice and snow, but about a spirit, a ghost if you like, imprisoned there or hiding there without a body.

Huh. Whenever the topics surrounding the crypts - iron swords to keep spirits in the crypts, Eddard's dreams of the Kings of Winter watching him with "eyes of ice," and Hodor's temporary fear of the crypts following Eddard's death - arose, I thought that it was already your interpretation that the spirits in the crypts can become white walkers, and the crypts are acting as a prison.

I know you don't agree with me on this, but that was my interpretation of Ygritte's comment about letting shades loose into the world--that it wasn't just superstitious blather, that they'd broken old wards and let shades/spirits loose to re-acquire white walker bodies.