Heresy 225 and the Snowflakes of Doom

[Melifeather]

On 7/26/2019 at 2:23 PM, St Daga said:

Are there hint's of knighthood around Barrowtown or House Dustin? I am not sure about this connection to knighthood for the Stark's as you are, although I believe we did discuss (multiple heresy's ago) that Rickard Stark was wearing gold spurs when he died, which in our world is a sign of knighthood. This has never  been established as a part of knighthood in ASOIAF, though. Also, we know that Ned follows the old gods at the start of our story, and both Benjen Stark and Jon Snow took their Night's Watch vows in front of a weirwood tree. It seems to me that if Rickard wanted his son trained to be a knight in the north, he would have sent him to White Harbor. That is the house in the north that is linked to the Faith of the Seven. 

 

I haven't been able to locate the text I had found before that stated old Lord Dustin was a knight. I've found text that says he hosted court twice and tourneys for one of the Targaryen kings which implies that he was a knight, and Brandon Stark had his own squire, which implies he became a knight. I'll have to do more digging when I get time.

On 7/26/2019 at 2:41 PM, St Daga said:

Sure, a spell was broken, but he doesn't say the Other' died. If the Other's can take several forms, we might have just witnessed two of those forms taking place. This also reminds me a bit of Stannis' shadow that murder's Renly. It was only a shadow, an image, a darkness in the light, and then after it's goal was reached, it disappeared. I don't know what would have happened if Brienne had tried to attack the shadow that killed Renly, but the shadow itself was real enough to kill Renly, to take a shadow sword and stick it in Renly's neck, so it might have been real enough for Brienne to fight. Stannis doesn't die, although he is certainly less than he was before. Sometimes I think the white and dark shadows are very similar.

I didn't absolutely say he was a Stark, although I think it's possible. And the man has to have a mother as well as a father, and he could be related to more than one noble house south of the wall.  He would not need to be a Stark to be imprisoned under Winterfell, although I did explore the possibility, too. If the Night King is held under Winterfell, the Stark's connection might have begun at this time, as a warden to the Night's King.

I did say I though he was of First Men origin. The wall is old and the Night's King was the thirteen's Lord Commander, so it's been a long time, probably before the Andal's came. I think it's fair to think that the Night's King was of the First Men, and that kinslaying, no matter who "brought him down" would be frowned on.  His family might have Joramun of the wildlings.  I think a family/blood connection would be a good reason not to kill the Night's King, otherwise just kill him and be done. The wording in regards to the Night's King never talks about death, just fell, fall, or brought down. 

However, if I had to bet money right now, I would say the Night's King did have Stark blood, and that his name was probably Jon Snow. An evil name to the wildlings, but doesn't bother Jon because the "real" name of the Night's King has been stricken from all records, so Jon and everyone else south of the wall, doesn't know the name. 

Now, if you are questioning that the Night's King's era didn't start until the Andal's had invaded Westeros, then I guess that could be a reason that kingslaying might not matter as much, but it's seems to be pretty much frowned upon all over Westeros, even in our present time line.

I think the wildlings would be angrier at the Starks than with the Nights King. IMO the Lord of Winterfell who defeated his brother and took his birthright was probably an earlier bastard son named Jon Snow.

There is a Jon Stark listed as a King in the North who is famous for building the Wolf's Den at the mouth of the White Knife which is the river in White Harbor. He was a king prior to both the Conquest and the Andal invasion. The Wolf's Den was built to defend against the raiders that arrived by boat. The Neck was annexed to the North during his reign, and his son Rickard married the Marsh King's daughter. The time period would fit and makes him a good  candidate for being the bastard that stole Winterfell from the trueborn heir and then legitimized himself.

[St Daga]

On 7/27/2019 at 10:42 AM, JNR said:

That happened after it impaled Small Paul and he worked his way, dying, up the blade... so the Other had time to transform if it could.

What we see is that it melts because Sam punched the dragonglass into its neck... that it shrieks horribly as this happens... tries to yank out the dagger and fails... and finally, it melts and evaporates.  There's just nothing voluntary about this on its part at all.

Why would the Other want to transform just because Small Paul was caught on his blade? I doubt a dying Small Paul is a threat to the Other. Without obsidian, it doesn't seem like the Other was in danger from Small Paul. It didn't seem to have fear.Did the Other know that Samwell had obsidian? Very hard to say. Certainly the obsidian did cause a transformation, when Sam stabbed the Other, but that doesn't mean that the Other is dead and gone permanently. It just shows a solid form versus a less solid form. And even if the obsidian did cause pain, that doesn't mean a transformation might talk place without at times causing pain. Such as in the sunlight. Or perhaps such a transformation always includes pain. All I am saying is that the Other's might be able to transform voluntarily, although this instance with Samwell doesn't seem to be one of those times.

On 7/27/2019 at 10:42 AM, JNR said:

The only alternative would be that he descended from a group that had been in Westeros even earlier (because the First Men do not appear to me really to have been first).

This very well could be the case.

[St Daga]

9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I haven't been able to locate the text I had found before that stated old Lord Dustin was a knight. I've found text that says he hosted court twice and tourneys for one of the Targaryen kings which implies that he was a knight, and Brandon Stark had his own squire, which implies he became a knight. I'll have to do more digging when I get time.

I will see what I can find, as well. But just because you have a squire, it doesn't mean you are a knight, or that your squire is training to be a knight.  Sandor Clegane has a squire and he is not a knight. He actually reviles knighthood. Theon Greyjoy has a squire and is no knight, as far as we know anyway. Those are a few examples I can easily think of.

Here is an SSM that deals with Ned's "squire" years:

Quote

 

How did Ned manage to become such a paragon Northener and a close friend of Lyanna's if he spent his time in the Vale from age 8 to 18? Or did he return home at some point(when?) and was just visiting Jon Arryn prior to and after the tourney at Harrenhal?

He was fostered, not exiled. Yes, certainly he returned home. Less frequently the first few years, when he would have been performing the duties of a page and then a squire, more often and for longer periods later. During his "squire" years (he wasn't a squire in the strict sense, since he wasn't training for knighthood, but he was acting as one), he would also have accompanied Jon Arryn on many travels out of the Vale. And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked... which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm's End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find.

 

Honestly, I wish this SSM didn't exist, because it basically blows my whole theory about Ned being a hostage instead of a ward into smithereens! 

Do you have to be a knight to host a tourney? Isn't being a lord enough? I am curious but have no idea where to find such information on tourney hosts and as far as tourney rules go, they seem to vary quite a bit.

 

27 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

There is a Jon Stark listed as a King in the North who is famous for building the Wolf's Den at the mouth of the White Knife which is the river in White Harbor. He was a king prior to both the Conquest and the Andal invasion. The Wolf's Den was built to defend against the raiders that arrived by boat. The Neck was annexed to the North during his reign, and his son Rickard married the Marsh King's daughter. The time period would fit and makes him a good  candidate for being the bastard that stole Winterfell from the trueborn heir and then legitimized himself.

This could work, although the title King in the North, as opposed to the title King of Winter makes me think Jon Stark and the building of the Wolf's Den might be of more recent history, however it probably is before the Andal invasion. Jon Stark is listed before Theon Stark, who is credited with fighting during the Andal invasion and even sailing to Essos to wreak havoc on the Andal's in their homeland. Of course, the Andal invasion could have lasted hundreds of years.  The timeline is vague at best, but the order of the kings in the crypts should be a clue to us, if not of time, then at least the order of the rulers. I don't know if we have any idea how old the Wolf's Den might be, but the Manderley's have held it for around 1300 years. And we don't really know when or why the title changed from KoW to KitN, but perhaps a bastard claiming the family rule would be a good reason to change the official title he went by. Could Jon Stark have been the first king to go by King in the North?

 

[Melifeather]

35 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Why would the Other want to transform just because Small Paul was caught on his blade? I doubt a dying Small Paul is a threat to the Other. Without obsidian, it doesn't seem like the Other was in danger from Small Paul. It didn't seem to have fear.Did the Other know that Samwell had obsidian? Very hard to say. Certainly the obsidian did cause a transformation, when Sam stabbed the Other, but that doesn't mean that the Other is dead and gone permanently. It just shows a solid form versus a less solid form. And even if the obsidian did cause pain, that doesn't mean a transformation might talk place without at times causing pain. Such as in the sunlight. Or perhaps such a transformation always includes pain. All I am saying is that the Other's might be able to transform voluntarily, although this instance with Samwell doesn't seem to be one of those times.

This very well could be the case.

GRRM said the obsidian broke the magic spell that was holding it together, which implies that it cannot simply reassemble itself - it would require another spell to be cast. If sacrifice is involved to work the magic, then it would be problematic if a human already sacrificed himself. 

[JNR]

On 7/27/2019 at 2:50 PM, Black Crow said:

they may not necessarily have been the first to arrive but when they did became aristos

Yes, I think this was the outcome, largely because as Matthew said:

5 hours ago, Matthew. said:

the First Men did not arrive as a slow trickle of pioneers, but as organized aggressors

Meaning, to me, that the First Men were the first major, and sustained, wave.

They had their hands full with the CotF for a long time... but once that problem was solved, the other ethnic groups of humans were not going to stop the First Men. 

They dominated the continent in fairly short order, and now, thousands of years later, whatever remnant populations may remain in Westeros of those older groups are either shunned or despised -- sometimes, literally portrayed as subhuman:

Quote

"Frogeaters don't smell like men," Frey insisted. "They have a boggy stink, like frogs and trees and scummy water. Moss grows under their arms in place of hair, and they can live with nothing to eat but mud and breathe swamp water."

 

[St Daga]

18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

GRRM said the obsidian broke the magic spell that was holding it together, which implies that it cannot simply reassemble itself - it would require another spell to be cast. If sacrifice is involved to work the magic, then it would be problematic if a human already sacrificed himself.

I am not sure if it is human sacrifice that is needed, although it very well might be. I have toyed and debated about the black shadows and white shadows in our story over the years. The white shadow's being the Other's, the White Walker's, physical, ghostly, deadly. And the black shadow's being the shadow babies that Melisandre casts. We don't know how many she has cast from her womb over the years, but it seems she didn't need a human sacrifice to do this, only human seed. We have seen seed via Stannis the Mannis create a shadow that looks like Stannis. What happens to the black shadow that killed Renly? Did it only have one goal and then it ceased to exist? Perhaps. But what if it only disappeared for a time. What if Melisandre is still wielding her shadow's like weapon's. I understand the argument could be made that if she still had them at her disposal, she would not need to continue making new shadow babies and have to come on to Davos and Jon for some baby making action.  

Or maybe she doesn't even truly understand what she is helping create. She see's the short term goal but is clueless to the long term effect of her actions?

Breaking a magic spell that was holding it together doesn't mean the matter that was held together is destroyed, only the physical form of it. What if it just needs more magic to bind it back into a form again? So, another spell, why not? Perhaps it just needs more seed to be able to regrow in a fertile womb? This might be exactly what happened to the Night's King thousands of years ago. 

Or I might be wrong, and the Other was destroyed forever, just mist in the wind, much like Varamyr's spirit, freeing it forever. I like to feel out lot's of options and see what connects the dots better. 

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I am not sure if it is human sacrifice that is needed, although it very well might be. I have toyed and debated about the black shadows and white shadows in our story over the years. The white shadow's being the Other's, the White Walker's, physical, ghostly, deadly. And the black shadow's being the shadow babies that Melisandre casts. We don't know how many she has cast from her womb over the years, but it seems she didn't need a human sacrifice to do this, only human seed. We have seen seed via Stannis the Mannis create a shadow that looks like Stannis. What happens to the black shadow that killed Renly? Did it only have one goal and then it ceased to exist? Perhaps. But what if it only disappeared for a time. What if Melisandre is still wielding her shadow's like weapon's. I understand the argument could be made that if she still had them at her disposal, she would not need to continue making new shadow babies and have to come on to Davos and Jon for some baby making action.  

Or maybe she doesn't even truly understand what she is helping create. She see's the short term goal but is clueless to the long term effect of her actions?

Breaking a magic spell that was holding it together doesn't mean the matter that was held together is destroyed, only the physical form of it. What if it just needs more magic to bind it back into a form again? So, another spell, why not? Perhaps it just needs more seed to be able to regrow in a fertile womb? This might be exactly what happened to the Night's King thousands of years ago. 

Or I might be wrong, and the Other was destroyed forever, just mist in the wind, much like Varamyr's spirit, freeing it forever. I like to feel out lot's of options and see what connects the dots better. 

When I read your post it struck me that the Night's King gave his seed to the pale woman like Stannis gave his seed to Melisandre.

I would like to know whether it needs to be a king's seed, or if maybe the seed of a warg creates a different kind of shadow? Maybe the Others were created by accident, because warg seed allowed the shadow to warg the cold?

[Black Crow]

21 minutes ago, alienarea said:

When I read your post it struck me that the Night's King gave his seed to the pale woman like Stannis gave his seed to Melisandre.

I would like to know whether it needs to be a king's seed, or if maybe the seed of a warg creates a different kind of shadow? Maybe the Others were created by accident, because warg seed allowed the shadow to warg the cold?

I imagine that there will be some differences, but the principle may be very much the same. The business of cold iron being used to bind the dead Starks in their tombs suggests that as wargs they could survive death, but Craster of course had his sons/seed and so might they.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

Breaking a magic spell that was holding it together doesn't mean the matter that was held together is destroyed, only the physical form of it. What if it just needs more magic to bind it back into a form again?

Its easy to imagine Ser Puddles waking up in the bat cave and muttering that next time he meets that fat kid its going to be no more Mr Nice Guy 

[LynnS]

I've been thinking much about the Crannogmen's oath to House Stark and what it actually means.

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

 

This is an old oath given when the Starks were Kings of the North so it strikes me that when they give their oath to Bran, that they are giving their oath to the crown as much as to an individual.

The sword crown of the Starks made of bronze with nine iron swords.  Is it possible that the nine swords represent specific Houses giving their allegiance to the King of the North.  

Swearing by ice and fire reminds me of Jojen's comment about ice that burns and fire and ice mating.  This brings to mind frozen fire or dragonglass.  Could this have something to do with the pact and the offering of 100 pieces of dragonsglass? 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, alienarea said:

When I read your post it struck me that the Night's King gave his seed to the pale woman like Stannis gave his seed to Melisandre.

I would like to know whether it needs to be a king's seed, or if maybe the seed of a warg creates a different kind of shadow? Maybe the Others were created by accident, because warg seed allowed the shadow to warg the cold?

Exactly what I am thinking on the possible connection between the Night's Queen and Mel! I am thinking that the Night's Queen, a woman associated with ice, took the seed of a man and produced white shadow's (possibly the White Walkers) while we have the opposite of that in Melisandre, a woman associated with fire, who took the seed of a man and has produced at least two black shadow's that we know of. 

We know that both of the black shadow's that Mel birthed look like Stannis. Cat and Brienne both recognize this in the shadow that killed Stannis, while Davos recognizes the shadow that is born under Storms End as looking like Stannis. We don't know what the Night's King looked like, but he is said to have given his seed to the Corpse Queen/Night's Queen for 13 years. That could be several shadow babies (if this works like the example we have in Melisandre). The Other's that attack Waymar look the same, I think. It's odd, because the are described as "faceless" but they are also described as twins of each other. So, they look alike in some way, just like Stannis' black shadow's look alike. Were the Other's who attacked Waymar cast from the seed of the same man?

I don't think the man would need to be a king, or even a warg actually. Unless Stannis is a warg, that was not needed for him and Mel to make a shadow baby. And Mel is trying to entice both Davos and Jon to give her their seed. Now there might be qualities in them that she see's or thinks she needs, but it doesn't have to be kingship or a skinchanger ability. However, those things might  make different abilities in the black shadows. And I am not sure that Mel even knows what she might be truly unleashing into the world.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I've been thinking much about the Crannogmen's oath to House Stark and what it actually means.

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

"I swear it by earth and water," said the boy in green.

"I swear it by bronze and iron," his sister said.

"We swear it by ice and fire," they finished together.

 

This is an old oath given when the Starks were Kings of the North so it strikes me that when they give their oath to Bran, that they are giving their oath to the crown as much as to an individual.

The sword crown of the Starks made of bronze with nine iron swords.  Is it possible that the nine swords represent specific Houses giving their allegiance to the King of the North.  

Swearing by ice and fire reminds me of Jojen's comment about ice that burns and fire and ice mating.  This brings to mind frozen fire or dragonglass.  Could this have something to do with the pact and the offering of 100 pieces of dragonsglass?

If the "bronze and iron" is a nod to the Stark crown, which is one item item that represents both iron and bronze, then what is a combined item that represents earth/water and ice/fire. I think obsidian, since it's described as frozen fire, could be a nod to ice and fire. Are we looking for two other items that need to be represented?

I am thinking of Elizabeth II's coronation photo, with the crown, orb and sceptre. So, if the oath as something to do with items a King in the North must have to be considered true or righteous. Now, I don't think a orb and sceptre are needed to crown a Stark, but we do have the idea of a traditional crown the Stark's used. We also have the idea of a sword that is called Ice, that the V-steel blade that was Ned's was named after. Could this have something to do with either ice and fire or earth and water? What could be a third item that would finish out the pledge, and to which part of the pledge might it apply too?

As to nine swords representing nine houses, that is possible. I can't seem to look beyond the circle of weirwoods north of the wall that Jon takes his Night's Watch oaths at as being in some way connected to the Stark crown, but just because I am stubborn, that doesn't mean I am right. The nine swords on the crown has to be symbolic of something!!! I had once considered nine castles with nine weirwoods in the north, and that would actually tie into the idea of nine families or houses, too.

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, St Daga said:

If the "bronze and iron" is a nod to the Stark crown, which is one item item that represents both iron and bronze, then what is a combined item that represents earth/water and ice/fire. I think obsidian, since it's described as frozen fire, could be a nod to ice and fire. Are we looking for two other items that need to be represented?

I am thinking of Elizabeth II's coronation photo, with the crown, orb and sceptre. So, if the oath as something to do with items a King in the North must have to be considered true or righteous. Now, I don't think a orb and sceptre are needed to crown a Stark, but we do have the idea of a traditional crown the Stark's used. We also have the idea of a sword that is called Ice, that the V-steel blade that was Ned's was named after. Could this have something to do with either ice and fire or earth and water? What could be a third item that would finish out the pledge, and to which part of the pledge might it apply too?

As to nine swords representing nine houses, that is possible. I can't seem to look beyond the circle of weirwoods north of the wall that Jon takes his Night's Watch oaths at as being in some way connected to the Stark crown, but just because I am stubborn, that doesn't mean I am right. The nine swords on the crown has to be symbolic of something!!! I had once considered nine castles with nine weirwoods in the north, and that would actually tie into the idea of nine families or houses, too.

Well I think earth and water represents the "realm".

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Arya VI

"Robert is the king of the worms now. Is that why you're down in the earth, to keep his court for him?"

"The king is dead," the scarecrow knight admitted, "but we are still king's men, though the royal banner we bore was lost at the Mummer's Ford when your brother's butchers fell upon us." He touched his breast with a fist. "Robert is slain, but his realm remains. And we defend her."

"Her?" The Hound snorted. "Is she your mother, Dondarrion? Or your whore?"

A Storm of Swords - Arya VI

Dondarrion? Beric Dondarrion had been handsome; Sansa's friend Jeyne had fallen in love with him. Even Jeyne Poole was not so blind as to think this man was fair. Yet when Arya looked at him again, she saw it; the remains of a forked purple lightning bolt on the cracked enamel of his breastplate.

"Rocks and trees and rivers, that's what your realm is made of," the Hound was saying. "Do the rocks need defending? Robert wouldn't have thought so. If he couldn't fuck it, fight it, or drink it, it bored him, and so would you . . . you brave companions."

Outrage swept the hollow hill. "Call us that name again, dog, and you'll swallow that tongue." Lem drew his longsword.

A Storm of Swords - Arya VI

The Hound laughed in his face.

"We are brothers here," Thoros of Myr declared. "Holy brothers, sworn to the realm, to our god, and to each other."

 

I do there is a connection to the 9 weirwood trees and the crown as well.

[St Daga]

11 hours ago, LynnS said:

Well I think earth and water represents the "realm".

Maybe so. There are some interesting lines from the book that could indicate earth and water is the world that man controls, A kingdom, the land, a nation, etc.

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"The gods made the earth for all men t' share. Only when the kings come with their crowns and steel swords, they claimed it was all theirs. My trees, they said, you can't eat them apples. My stream, you can't fish here. My wood, you're not t' hunt. My earth, my water, my castle, my daughter, keep your hands away or I'll chop 'em off, but maybe if you kneel t' me I'll let you have a sniff. You call us thieves, but at least a thief has t' be brave and clever and quick. A kneeler only has t' kneel." ASOS-Jon V

 

Quote

"The secrets of the old gods," said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him after the ordeals of their journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about the eyes. "Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell … but not in the wet wild. We live closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember. Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone." ADWD-Bran III

 

But could it also mean Winterfell? It's no doubt a special place, fairly unique, in both the castle above ground and the passages below ground!

Quote

Of all the rooms in Winterfell's Great Keep, Catelyn's bedchambers were the hottest. She seldom had to light a fire. The castle had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man's body, driving the chill from the stone halls, filling the glass gardens with a moist warmth, keeping the earth from freezing. Open pools smoked day and night in a dozen small courtyards. That was a little thing, in summer; in winter, it was the difference between life and death. AGOT-Catelyn II

A place of protection from the cold of winter. And perhaps the heat of fire, too! Both elements that seem to be stalking the people of Westeros!

Quote

Arya rolled headfirst into the tunnel and dropped five feet. She got dirt in her mouth but she didn't care, the taste was fine, the taste was mud and water and worms and life. Under the earth the air was cool and dark. Above was nothing but blood and roaring red and choking smoke and the screams of dying horses. She moved her belt around so Needle would not be in her way, and began to crawl. A dozen feet down the tunnel she heard the sound, like the roar of some monstrous beast, and a cloud of hot smoke and black dust came billowing up behind her, smelling of hell. Arya held her breath and kissed the mud on the floor of the tunnel and cried. For whom, she could not say. ACOK-Arya IV

 

[St Daga]

11 hours ago, LynnS said:

I do there is a connection to the 9 weirwood trees and the crown as well.

Maybe the faces on each of those weirwoods could help explain the connection. They were all different, if I remember correctly. Representing certain people, perhaps? Or tied to sacrifice of certain people, maybe?

[Brad Stark]

King's blood is not a requirement for shadow babies.   We have strong hints Davos and Jon could also have made shadows.

If you believe j=r+l, Jon may have King's blood, but it is clear Melisandre doesn't know he does. 

Neither we, nor Melisandre, have any reason to believe Davos has King's blood. 

[redriver]

15 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

King's blood is not a requirement for shadow babies.   We have strong hints Davos and Jon could also have made shadows.

If you believe j=r+l, Jon may have King's blood, but it is clear Melisandre doesn't know he does. 

Neither we, nor Melisandre, have any reason to believe Davos has King's blood. 

Maybe not,though it seems to be the case so far.

Mance seems a more likely contributor to me.

"Sweet as a woman's kiss.You're kiss."

And he has king's blood,technically.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

Maybe so. There are some interesting lines from the book that could indicate earth and water is the world that man controls, A kingdom, the land, a nation, etc.

The land is meant to be shared not taken as an acquisition and then owned by some king.
 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon V

"You know nothing, Jon Snow. Daughters are taken, not wives. You're the ones who steal. You took the whole world, and built the Wall t' keep the free folk out."

"Did we?" Sometimes Jon forgot how wild she was, and then she would remind him. "How did that happen?"

"The gods made the earth for all men t' share. Only when the kings come with their crowns and steel swords, they claimed it was all theirs. My trees, they said, you can't eat them apples. My stream, you can't fish here. My wood, you're not t' hunt. My earth, my water, my castle, my daughter, keep your hands away or I'll chop 'em off, but maybe if you kneel t' me I'll let you have a sniff. You call us thieves, but at least a thief has t' be brave and clever and quick. A kneeler only has t' kneel."

 

 

[St Daga]

8 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The land is meant to be shared not taken as an acquisition and then owned by some king.

Yes, that is Ygritte's interpretation. That doesn't mean she is completely correct in that thought process. Under the concept of feudalism, all land belongs to  the King, and vassal's under him hold the land for him. So, whom ever pledged to the Stark's of old and who bent the knee, such as the crannogmen, seemed to accept that the land belonged to the Stark's, and they held it based on the Stark's allowing them too. We see this example with the Wolf's Den, in which the castle and land around the mouth of the White Knife, are held by several families, but the land can be held by another family if the Stark king deems it so. So in turn, when Torrhen bent the knee to Aegon, he accepts that the land is now Aegon's, and that the Stark's now only hold it under Targaryen rule. At least that is how I see the concept of feudalism.

I mean, if I plant a nice garden in my yard and work to make sure it prospers, but then someone rolls into my yard and steals all my tomatoes and corn, who has the right to the produce?

[St Daga]

Just got my 2020 ASOIAF calendar and I am pleased with the images. The ice spiders are sweet! I found the image of the Night's King and his bride to be quite interesting. The fold out image appears to be a storm outside of Dragonstone! Mostly mythical types of animals, which is fun. Direwolves, kraken's, sea serpents, giants, mammoths, fire wyrms. Anyone know if the images get GRRM's approval before getting in the calendar's, just to know how much the images fit his imagination or how much they don't! @Ran?