Heresy 225 and the Snowflakes of Doom

[redriver]

There is no evidence Euron has any magical abilities whatsoever.He once dreamt he could fly,that's it.So did I.

[Melifeather]

2 minutes ago, redriver said:

There is no evidence Euron has any magical abilities whatsoever.He once dreamt he could fly,that's it.So did I.

It isn't clearly laid out in black and white, but its heavily implied.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Well, so far, we have only seen Euron's blue eye, his "smiling eye", which is his right eye. His left eye is covered with a patch, sometimes black, sometimes red. Theon thinks of his left eye, as being black and shining with malice.

 

Spoiler

In the Foresaken chapter, he no longer wears a patch and his eye is black.  Although his black eye is now referred to as the blood eye.

I'm thinking his eye is black as a result of falling off the cliff as a child.  I think the pupil is permanently dilated because of that fall.  

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Perhaps Euron is actually the Three-eyed Crow? Bloodraven did seem to be a bit confused when Bran questioned him...

Well his sigil is interesting.  Two crows and a third red eye, so three-eyed crow?  Although the red eye reminds me of Mel's ruby which Jon describes as third eye.

[alienarea]

Getting back to the three heads of the dragon: could it be as simple as referring to the separation of power (legislation, jurisdiction, execution)?

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Getting back to the three heads of the dragon: could it be as simple as referring to the separation of power (legislation, jurisdiction, execution)?

Didn't Rhaegar want to restore good government or stability of some kind?  I can't remember exactly. 

[alienarea]

45 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Didn't Rhaegar want to restore good government or stability of some kind?  I can't remember exactly. 

Don't remember this as well.

To expand on my stream of thoughts: GRRM seems to favor mankind ruled by a superior being, and he's writing fantasy. Which creature symbolizes fantasy? A dragon. On the other hand, separation of powers is an established principle.

Maybe "the dragon needs three heads" is just a statement that the final outcome must be a ruler with non-human powers supervising a separation of powers as GRRMs ideal form of government?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

execution)?

I'm assuming you meant executive branch?

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, alienarea said:

Getting back to the three heads of the dragon: could it be as simple as referring to the separation of power (legislation, jurisdiction, execution)?

Perish the thought. How dare you try to suggest using common sense 

[redriver]

41 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It isn't clearly laid out in black and white, but its heavily implied.

Agreed,it is.

What is very clear is that he's a psychopath who has a long history of taking what he wants and getting away with it.

Spoiler

Aeron's childhood memories and Euron's confessions of fratricide in the "Forsaken" chapter speak to that,as well as pretty much everything he does.Narratively he's set up as the major antagonist going forward.

I don't think he's the Three Eyed Crow or was ever his apprentice.I could go with the idea that the TEC,seeing what he could become,tried to kill him by getting him to literally fly in a dream, but failed.That would be a Hammer of the Waters wrote small I suppose.

He takes what he can get as for as magic and sorcery are concerned,be it artifacts like the dragon horn and the Valyrian suit of armour,be it sorcerers and priests and the lore and prophecy they hold.And he seems to be trying to use these ingredients for apotheosis,to make himself into a god,according to Aeron's Shade of the Evening induced visions.

Euron seems to be a Shade addict and who knows how it's affected him? It's a potent brew of sociopathy,hullucinogen induced visions of omnipotency,fearlessness and knowledge.

I'm hoping and expecting that Euron will demonstrate that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.His collection of sorcerous ingredients in the Forsaken look comparable to Dany's at the pyre.Though this is a learned recipe as opposed to an intuitive one.

That's a long winded way to say Euron does not need to be inherently magical for the story.He's acquiring it instead.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Perhaps Euron can "see" through his third eye and the patch provides a sort of movie screen? The patch might help keep the two sights separate. The one he sees right in front of him with his blue eye and the black one what the third eye sees. I'm not sure that he even needs a glass candle.

Perhaps Euron is actually the Three-eyed Crow? Bloodraven did seem to be a bit confused when Bran questioned him...

I do think that Euron is the Three Eyed Crow. His nickname gives us the crow's eye, and his three eyes are black, blue and red. Black and blue on his body, and the red eye on his sigil, which I think is a nod to the weirnet. Anyway the black, blue and red are associated with Malice, Smiling, and Blood. I think that Bloodraven probably came to Euron as a child and tried to train him just as Bloodraven is attempting to train Bran. But Euron succumbed or was driven very dark but the "terrible knowledge" he was seeing. I think that Bloodraven is attempting to correct his mistakes with Bran. We see that Bran seems to walking a perilous path that could lead him into a darkness, a path that could make him callous and cruel. That is how Euron acts. 

As to whether Euron needs a glass candle or not, you might be right. But I can't help but think that it's his blue eye that is altered from normal. As you pointed out, the Greyjoy's are dark haired and dark eyed. We do not have one Greyjoy with blue eyes, although as I mentioned, Victarion and Theon are questionable. I think that Euron can connect to dream streams with some people, but with other people he cannot, because the people on the other side of the link don't have the genetics for reading dreams. So, for those people, he needs another way to communicate. Or the glass candle is used for seeing things in a different way than the weirnet works? Anyway, I think that Euron is capable of using multitple methods to see or be seen. Euron also seems to use the Shade of the Evening, but what is very interesting to me is that he forces other's to use it as well. So, does it not work for Euron anymore? Or is he able to see the visions of other's while they use it. He is using those people for his own terrible purpose.

 

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

My thoughts are that the covered eye is similar to how skinchangers see through the eyes of their familiars. It's easier to slip into your familiar in your sleep, but Bran learned to see what was in front of him and through Summer at the same time

The idea of blindness might work as a way of opening up a different type of vision with Euron too, I suppose. Bran tells us the crow comes to his dream and pecks out one eye and then the other, AND then it starts to peck his forehead, to open the third eye. So, blindness does seem to be a path to a magical type of site. Bran's powers also really expand while he is in the darkness of the crypts.

Quote

"Fly or die!" cried the three-eyed crow as it pecked at him. He wept and pleaded but the crow had no pity. It put out his left eye and then his right, and when he was blind in the dark it pecked at his brow, driving its terrible sharp beak deep into his skull. He screamed until he was certain his lungs must burst. The pain was an axe splitting his head apart, but when the crow wrenched out its beak all slimy with bits of bone and brain, Bran could see again. What he saw made him gasp in fear. ACOK-Bran II

I do find it interesting, that whomever the 3EC turns out to be, especially if it's Euron, is that it was the 3EC that lead Bran to his father in the crypts after Ned's death, possibly even opened up a line of communication for Bran and Ned. Why? Perhaps he was spying on this communication. Rickon might also have been visited by the 3EC and he also "talked" to Ned in the crypts.

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm thinking his eye is black as a result of falling off the cliff as a child.  I think the pupil is permanently dilated because of that fall.

Perhaps damage from an injury could cause the eye to loose pigment and fade to blue? The Greyjoy's seem to have black or dark eyes naturally. Why do you think a fall from a cliff? And if the cliff was into the ocean, could Euron have "drowned", which might have opened him up to powers he did not have before? That would mirror Bran's fall, injury (I think Bran could have died and been reborn) and rebirth as a magical being.

[Melifeather]

34 minutes ago, redriver said:

Agreed,it is.

What is very clear is that he's a psychopath who has a long history of taking what he wants and getting away with it.

  Hide contents

Aeron's childhood memories and Euron's confessions of fratricide in the "Forsaken" chapter speak to that,as well as pretty much everything he does.Narratively he's set up as the major antagonist going forward.

I don't think he's the Three Eyed Crow or was ever his apprentice.I could go with the idea that the TEC,seeing what he could become,tried to kill him by getting him to literally fly in a dream, but failed.That would be a Hammer of the Waters wrote small I suppose.

He takes what he can get as for as magic and sorcery are concerned,be it artifacts like the dragon horn and the Valyrian suit of armour,be it sorcerers and priests and the lore and prophecy they hold.And he seems to be trying to use these ingredients for apotheosis,to make himself into a god,according to Aeron's Shade of the Evening induced visions.

Euron seems to be a Shade addict and who knows how it's affected him? It's a potent brew of sociopathy,hullucinogen induced visions of omnipotency,fearlessness and knowledge.

I'm hoping and expecting that Euron will demonstrate that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.His collection of sorcerous ingredients in the Forsaken look comparable to Dany's at the pyre.Though this is a learned recipe as opposed to an intuitive one.

That's a long winded way to say Euron does not need to be inherently magical for the story.He's acquiring it instead.

The concept of dualities has been fully demonstrated throughout the series. Black and white. Bronze and iron. Weirwood and ebony. Male and female. Sun and moon. Day and night. Summer and winter. Heads and tails. Bloodraven and Euron. Ravens and crows.

Say what you will about Bloodraven, but IMO I think the books have set him up to be a just and righteous man. He's the "good" wizard and the theme of having two sides to every coin dictates that we must have a "bad" wizard.

[corbon]

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

Yeh, the popular opinion is that there must be two other dragonriders plus Dany to make a three headed dragon.  I think Aemon is pretty clear that his primary function as a head of the dragon is to show her the way.  In my book that includes guiding, counseling and protecting.  If he can't do that, the next best thing, in his opinion, is to send her a maester; someone with knowledge and wisdom to guide her and the strength to protect her.  

If Victarion and Moqorro get their hands on a dragon and think that's highly probable; or, if one of the dragons is killed; there won't be three dragons to ride.  

The only character I can see who could actually fill Aemon's role and ride a dragon is Tyrion. 
 

If this is a true vision; Rhaegar doesn't have any dragons when Aegon is born.  So what is he talking about? 

You didn't really answer the question.
You pulled two quotes.

Quote

"The dragon must have three heads," he wailed, "but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me."

Quote

They must send her a maester. Daenerys must be counseled, taught, protected. For all these years I've lingered, waiting, watching, and now that the day has dawned I am too old. 

In the first, Aemon covers two things he could/should be for/supporting Dany.
i) One of the three heads (we all know that there must be three, from multiple sources)
ii) A guide/counselor
In the second, Aemon suggests that the Citadel must send her a Maester

23 hours ago, LynnS said:

So it seems that being one of the heads of the dragon has nothing to do with riding a dragon, but counseling, teaching and protecting.  Who is showing her the way?

From that you conclude that one of the heads of the dragon need not ride a dragon but could be merely a counselor/guide. Not in fact anything to do with Targaryens or dragons, just whichever maester the Citadel sends her.

My question is how do you make this leap (and why does everyone else just accept/run with it?) 
That Aemon has failed to be either i) or ii) does not require that i) and ii) be the same person, which you in your statement have implied, since you have assumed it must be a head of the dragon that counsels teaches and protects her.
Dany could be guided/counselled by one of the heads of the dragon or anyone else who has the right skills/knowledge.

 

 

On an utterly different matter

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

  Reveal hidden contents

In the Foresaken chapter, he no longer wears a patch and his eye is black.  Although his black eye is now referred to as the blood eye.

I'm thinking his eye is black as a result of falling off the cliff as a child.  I think the pupil is permanently dilated because of that fall.  

Euron's 'normal' eye is blue. 
His sigil has a red eye.
His nickname is "crows eye".
His patched eye is black.
Crows are born with blue-grey eyes which turn dark red/brown as they mature.

I believe Euron has a hyphema, must likely caused by blunt force trauma (could indeed be the cliff fall, or combat later). Initially it coloured his eye red ("crows eye", blue to red).
When it does not clear, the blood can turn thicken and turn black and vision damage can be permanent.
Hyphema symptoms can include pain (hence the drinking etc) and sensitivity to light, as well as loss of vision (hence the patch).

If the trauma happened before Theon was born then as far as Theon is concerned Euron's black eye 'was always like that'.

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I'm assuming you meant executive branch?

yes  but for ASoIaF execution makes sense, too

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Perish the thought. How dare you try to suggest using common sense 

Me? Common sense? Never  

[JNR]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is the superficial answer

And it comes from Jorah Mormont, who has no background in researching or interpreting this stuff, and never heard the phrase "three heads of the dragon" until we did.  No help there.

As for the bit about husbands... that's because he's trying to seduce Dany, because he's in love with her. 

He says that in between kissing her, and making this pitch:

Quote

"Rhaenys and Visenya were Aegon's wives as well as his sisters. You have no brothers, but you can take husbands. And I tell you truly, Daenerys, there is no man in all the world who will ever be half so true to you as me."

I think we can safely conclude Jorah's horndog fixation on a gorgeous teen girl isn't going to solve this mystery. 

(Actually, it doesn't even get him into her pants).

6 hours ago, redriver said:

There is no evidence Euron has any magical abilities whatsoever.He once dreamt he could fly,that's it.So did I.

Agreed.  But have you tried to fly?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, corbon said:

In the first, Aemon covers two things he could/should be for/supporting Dany.
i) One of the three heads (we all know that there must be three, from multiple sources)
ii) A guide/counselor
In the second, Aemon suggests that the Citadel must send her a Maester 

I think there is enough ambiguity in Aemon's statement to question the role and meaning of the dragon has three heads.

The superficial answer, the one that everyone knows, is that the there must be three dragon riders.  And yet in Dany's vision of Rhaegar there are no dragons.  So what did he mean?

An additional assumption is that the dragon riders must be siblings and yet we're short a few of those.  Another assumption is that dragon riders don't have to be siblings, they can be husbands or wives.  So, the goal post keeps shifting.

There is a possibility that Victarion will acquire one of the dragons and I wouldn't put it past George to kill one of the dragons either.  If that happens, then the premise that there will be three dragon riders falls apart.

I think the dragon of which there are three heads is something else.  Something to do with Dany's vision of the Great Wolf and the man limned in flame (the great dragon). 

As to why others here are entertaining this idea;  we question everything including accepted dogma.  That's why this is the heretic's thread.  

[corbon]

45 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think there is enough ambiguity in Aemon's statement to question the role and meaning of the dragon has three heads.

Sure. Thats not the point.

Quote

The superficial answer, the one that everyone knows, is that the there must be three dragon riders.  And yet in Dany's vision of Rhaegar there are no dragons.  So what did he mean?

Exactly what he said.
He could/should have been i) or ii). But he's failed, too old, etc. The citadel should send Dany ii)

You went straight from that to ii) = i). Which is not a logical or reasonable deduction.

Quote

An additional assumption is that the dragon riders must be siblings and yet we're short a few of those.  Another assumption is that dragon riders don't have to be siblings, they can be husbands or wives.  So, the goal post keeps shifting.

Those assumptions are not being made here, nor relevant to the question.

Quote

There is a possibility that Victarion will acquire one of the dragons and I wouldn't put it past George to kill one of the dragons either.  If that happens, then the premise that there will be three dragon riders falls apart.

Sure. No ones arguing anything to do with there being three dragon riders.

Quote

I think the dragon of which there are three heads is something else.  Something to do with Dany's vision of the Great Wolf and the man limned in flame (the great dragon). 

Sure, its possible. Still nothing to do with the question here, or your assumption.

Quote

As to why others here are entertaining this idea;  we question everything including accepted dogma.  That's why this is the heretic's thread.  

Its nothing personal, sorry if it seems I'm picking on you. 
Essentially you made a supporting argument for the theory that there may not be three dragon riders. This particular argument was bad. That does NOT invalidate the theory, which I am neither attacking nor defending. There are other arguments, for and against,

An illogical assumption was made, and went unchallenged. It often seems things that question 'dogma' are not themselves questioned, so long as they support 'heresy'.

(I come here for 'visits' when time allows - often threads have moved a dozen or more pages since I last visited, so I don't have time to read everything. But I see this a lot, along with crowing about how everything is questioned here and everyone else are idiots). From an 'outsider's pov this is quite an uncomfortable place, but I like to visit anyway when I can because there are different perspectives on things here that are interesting, and not the way I think, more so than in the main forum area.

 

What did you think about the crows-eye stuff? I'm not sold on it (other theories could be true, or new data may come to light invalidating it, but I think its a very solid (by far the most solid at this point) explanation of all the facts regarding Euron's eye/history.

[corbon]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Didn't Rhaegar want to restore good government or stability of some kind?  I can't remember exactly. 

 I think he intended to remove Aerys, through legal means. At least from active power, if not necessarily from the position of King.

Quote

Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

How one interprets this depends on their understanding of Rhaegar's character, the powers of Councils and Kings, how court politics work, and probably a few other things too.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

And it comes from Jorah Mormont, who has no background in researching or interpreting this stuff, and never heard the phrase "three heads of the dragon" until we did.  No help there.

As for the bit about husbands... that's because he's trying to seduce Dany, because he's in love with her. 

I had forgotten that Dany first hears about the three-headed dragon in the House of Undying.  She is named Bride of Fire, Daughter of Death and Slayer of Lies.  I wonder if these are the three heads of the dragon.