Heresy 225 and the Snowflakes of Doom

[Ran]

George has input, but he does recognize and encourage artists to apply their own vision. I'm sure he was happy with everything he saw, but they are primarily understood as Howe's interpretation.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

Yes, that is Ygritte's interpretation. That doesn't mean she is completely correct in that thought process. Under the concept of feudalism, all land belongs to  the King, and vassal's under him hold the land for him. So, whom ever pledged to the Stark's of old and who bent the knee, such as the crannogmen, seemed to accept that the land belonged to the Stark's, and they held it based on the Stark's allowing them too. We see this example with the Wolf's Den, in which the castle and land around the mouth of the White Knife, are held by several families, but the land can be held by another family if the Stark king deems it so. So in turn, when Torrhen bent the knee to Aegon, he accepts that the land is now Aegon's, and that the Stark's now only hold it under Targaryen rule. At least that is how I see the concept of feudalism.

I mean, if I plant a nice garden in my yard and work to make sure it prospers, but then someone rolls into my yard and steals all my tomatoes and corn, who has the right to the produce?

I don't think this is just Ygritte's interpretation.  It's likely what all wildlings think.  I think this has something to do with the Pact, the cessation of hostility; an agreement to share the land and protect it from those who would carve it up for their use only.  A part of the lore and history that they remember and others have forgotten.  In particular, what the Starks have forgotten.

[St Daga]

8 hours ago, Ran said:

George has input, but he does recognize and encourage artists to apply their own vision. I'm sure he was happy with everything he saw, but they are primarily understood as Howe's interpretation.

Thanks for responding. I admit I was surprised to see tusks (I guess that's what those are) on the giant, but it has an interesting look. 

[alienarea]

Let's go back half a step to take another look at the Others as Shadowbabies, shall we?

The shadows created by Melisandre are smokelike, IIRC, or do I mix it up with LOST? 

[asongofheresy]

Do you think there is a source that gives birth to Others like the Great Other maybe, a mysterious nameless woman aka Lady of Spears (Britney) 

[St Daga]

8 hours ago, alienarea said:

Let's go back half a step to take another look at the Others as Shadowbabies, shall we?

The shadows created by Melisandre are smokelike, IIRC, or do I mix it up with LOST?

Here is the two times we see the black shadow's:

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Renly laughed. "Tell me, my lady, do direwolves vote on who should lead the pack?" Brienne brought the king's gauntlets and greathelm, crowned with golden antlers that would add a foot and a half to his height. "The time for talk is done. Now we see who is stronger." Renly pulled a lobstered green-and-gold gauntlet over his left hand, while Brienne knelt to buckle on his belt, heavy with the weight of longsword and dagger.

"I beg you in the name of the Mother," Catelyn began when a sudden gust of wind flung open the door of the tent. She thought she glimpsed movement, but when she turned her head, it was only the king's shadow shifting against the silken walls. She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly's sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword . . .

 

"Cold," said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat.

 

"Your Gr—no!" cried Brienne the Blue when she saw that evil flow, sounding as scared as any little girl. The king stumbled into her arms, a sheet of blood creeping down the front of his armor, a dark red tide that drowned his green and gold. More candles guttered out. Renly tried to speak, but he was choking on his own blood. His legs collapsed, and only Brienne's strength held him up. She threw back her head and screamed, wordless in her anguish.

 

The shadow. Something dark and evil had happened here, she knew, something that she could not begin to understand. Renly never cast that shadow. Death came in that door and blew the life out of him as swift as the wind snuffed out his candles. ACOK-Catelyn IV

 

So, Catelyn sees it as a shadow. But a shadow that is real enough to come in through the door of the tent instead of just sifting though the material and a shadowsword that is real enough to go through a steel gorget like it was cheesecloth. That is quite a sharp blade! It reminds me of the razor sharpness of the blade of the Other. Not sure what happened to this shadow. I don't think it's mentioned again, but with all of the ruckus, it probably wasn't anyones focus.

 

Then, Brienne is engaged in battle with Robar Royce and Emmon Cuy, while Catelyn tries to convince the men that Brienne did not kill Renly.

 

 

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On the ground, Renly's head rolled sickeningly to one side, and a second mouth yawned wide, the blood coming from him now in slow pulses.

Ser Robar had hung back, uncertain, but now he was reaching for his hilt. "Robar, no, listen." Catelyn seized his arm. "You do her wrong, it was not her. Help her! Hear me, it was Stannis." The name was on her lips before she could think how it got there, but as she said it, she knew that it was true. "I swear it, you know me, it was Stannis killed him."

 

The young rainbow knight stared at this madwoman with pale and frightened eyes. "Stannis? How?"

 

"I do not know. Sorcery, some dark magic, there was a shadow, a shadow." Her own voice sounded wild and crazed to her, but the words poured out in a rush as the blades continued to clash behind her. "A shadow with a sword, I swear it, I saw. Are you blind, the girl loved him! Help her!" She glanced back, saw the second guardsman fall, his blade dropping from limp fingers. Outside there was shouting. More angry men would be bursting in on them any instant, she knew. "She is innocent, Robar. You have my word, on my husband's grave and my honor as a Stark!"

 

That resolved him. "I will hold them," Ser Robar said. "Get her away." He turned and went out. ACOK-Catelyn IV

 

Brienne and Catelyn flee the camp. They discuss what happened to Renly. In this chapter and on others, Catelyn always refers to what killed Renly as a shadow.

 

This is Davos' experience with Melisandre in the cavern beneath Storm's End.

 

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Together they tied off the sail as the boat rocked beneath them. As Davos unshipped the oars and slid them into the choppy black water, he said, "Who rowed you to Renly?"

"There was no need," she said. "He was unprotected. But here . . . this Storm's End is an old place. There are spells woven into the stones. Dark walls that no shadow can pass—ancient, forgotten, yet still in place."

 

"Shadow?" Davos felt his flesh prickling. "A shadow is a thing of darkness."

 

"You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows."

 

Frowning, Davos hushed her then. They were coming close to shore once more, and voices carried across the water. He rowed, the faint sound of his oars lost in the rhythm of the waves. The seaward side of Storm's End perched upon a pale white cliff, the chalky stone sloping up steeply to half again the height of the massive curtain wall. A mouth yawned in the cliff, and it was that Davos steered for, as he had sixteen years before. The tunnel opened on a cavern under the castle, where the storm lords of old had built their landing. ACOK-Davos II

 

 

There is some rowing and remembering of Davos previous entry into these caverns, sixteen years before, but it's Melisandre who names what she cast upon Renly, and what she will soon give birth too as a shadow.

 

 

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"Have we passed within the walls?"

"Yes. Beneath. But we can go no farther. The portcullis goes all the way to the bottom. And the bars are too closely spaced for even a child to squeeze through."

 

There was no answer but a soft rustling. And then a light bloomed amidst the darkness.

 

Davos raised a hand to shield his eyes, and his breath caught in his throat. Melisandre had thrown back her cowl and shrugged out of the smothering robe. Beneath, she was naked, and huge with child. Swollen breasts hung heavy against her chest, and her belly bulged as if near to bursting. "Gods preserve us," he whispered, and heard her answering laugh, deep and throaty. Her eyes were hot coals, and the sweat that dappled her skin seemed to glow with a light of its own. Melisandre shone.

 

Panting, she squatted and spread her legs. Blood ran down her thighs, black as ink. Her cry might have been agony or ecstasy or both. And Davos saw the crown of the child's head push its way out of her. Two arms wriggled free, grasping, black fingers coiling around Melisandre's straining thighs, pushing, until the whole of the shadow slid out into the world and rose taller than Davos, tall as the tunnel, towering above the boat. He had only an instant to look at it before it was gone, twisting between the bars of the portcullis and racing across the surface of the water, but that instant was long enough.

 

He knew that shadow. As he knew the man who'd cast it. ACOK-Davos II

So, Davos also see's it a shadow (but perhaps because Mel already put this idea into his head), one that is incredibly tall, towering over them, then it twists through the portcullis and moves away. But it doesn't just sift through the portcullis, it seems to be solid enough that it has to twist to get through the bars in one piece.

In other passages, Brienne dreams of this as  a shadow that attacked Renly (in the dream, it's Jaime who is attacked), she and Jaime discuss that it was a shadow, with each other and then later with Loras Tyrell.

I never watched Lost, so I don't know what those smoke shadows were about, but I think everyone who see's these "demon's" seems to recognize these things as black shadows, most importantly Melisandre, who should know more about this than anyone. If they are made of smoke, I haven't seen it in the text. I could have missed it, though.

As a contrast, there are multiple mentions of white shadows in the text. Ghost is one, so are the kingsguard, but the very first mention of white shadows we get in the text is from the prologue of Game.

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The Others made no sound.

Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone. Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers. Will opened his mouth to call down a warning, and the words seemed to freeze in his throat. Perhaps he was wrong. Perhaps it had only been a bird, a reflection on the snow, some trick of the moonlight. What had he seen, after all? AGOT-Prologue

Mel tries to tell us that shadows are things of light, and in this case, I think these shadows are things of moonlight.

 

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It was cold. Shivering, Will clung more tightly to his perch. His face pressed hard against the trunk of the sentinel. He could feel the sweet, sticky sap on his cheek.

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

 

Will heard the breath go out of Ser Waymar Royce in a long hiss. "Come no farther," the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy's. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.

 

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor. AGOT-Prologue

 

Will see's the shadow as both white and black, but his initial reaction was to call it a white shadow. This idea of a shadow, combined with the coldness in the air (Renly remarked on the cold just before he died), and in this case, the blade noted to be razor sharp and not of human metal.

 

I just think there is enough similarities between the types of shadows to question that they might be cast in the same way. From the womb of a woman who practices magic using the seed of a man of importance. It might even be the very same magic, and the difference is the type of light around them. The white shadows are associated with moonlight, while the black shadows seem to be associated with flames.

 

 

6 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Do you think there is a source that gives birth to Others like the Great Other maybe, a mysterious nameless woman aka Lady of Spears

If I remember correctly, you recognize the Lady of Spears (the Unsullied goddess) as being why Varys' manhood burned blue when it was given to the flames? Err, or someone does.

I do think there could be a counterpart to Melisandre, a women who births black shadows, and her counterpart is a woman who birth's white shadows.  I am not sure who she is. I also think it's possible that Melisandre might be capable of producing a white shadow, too.  I certainly think this all might connect back to what we know of the Night's Kings lover, his eventual queen.

 

[asongofheresy]

@St Daga Yeah I do think there is a connection between Varys' story if it's real and the Unsullied, do you think the Great Other might be Night's King Queen? I remember a thread about Bael and NsK, maybe tGO was a Stark woman - daughter of Brandon the Daughterless? 

[Brad Stark]

Interesting parallel between white shadows and black shadows, however no on notices heat around the black shadows, and they don't seem to last very long, they don't seem to be able to control the dead, and they are driven to do a single task.  Just too many differences imo.

[Brad Stark]

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

If I remember correctly, you recognize the Lady of Spears (the Unsullied goddess) as being why Varys' manhood burned blue when it was given to the flames? Err, or someone does.

Is there any connection beyond what is burned?  I didn't see these as related.

[alienarea]

3 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Interesting parallel between white shadows and black shadows, however no on notices heat around the black shadows, and they don't seem to last very long, they don't seem to be able to control the dead, and they are driven to do a single task.  Just too many differences imo.

The black shadows are given birth to by Melisandre. The white shadows ... we do not know.

If they are born, too, who is a candidate for their mother? Morna and / or Val come to mind.

Following Feather Crystal's logic of reversing / undoing the wheel of time, it would be Val and Jon were not to give her his seed.

And because of that he got murdered, and could not bind his brothers with strange sorcery?

Maybe listening to 'Fables of the Reconstruction' helps

(Maps and Legends, Can't Get There from Here)

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Interesting parallel between white shadows and black shadows, however no on notices heat around the black shadows, and they don't seem to last very long, they don't seem to be able to control the dead, and they are driven to do a single task.  Just too many differences imo.

I think that the basic principles are the same in that in both cases we're looking at spirits detached from their parent bodies - remember Mel's comment about taking too much from Stannis.

The difference may lie in the process and Mel doesn't seem to be as good at working magic as she pretends to be, but fundamentally I believe that it comes back to that line about how Ice preserves while Fire consumes.

Craster's boys appear to be able to run around indefinitely for so long as its cold enough to preserve their icy form, while on the other hand Mel's black shadows are smoke and easily consumed because they have no way of assuming a copororeal form

[Martyn Bull]

20 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Interesting parallel between white shadows and black shadows, however no on notices heat around the black shadows, and they don't seem to last very long, they don't seem to be able to control the dead, and they are driven to do a single task.  Just too many differences imo.

As far I remember, Mel never tries to birth a shadow North of the wall. Could be whatever spells are in the wall makes it a hard time being a shadow south of it. 

[Melifeather]

21 hours ago, alienarea said:

Following Feather Crystal's logic of reversing / undoing the wheel of time, it would be Val and Jon were not to give her his seed.

I actually agree with this. Jon is the Lord Commander turned Nights King and he will do the reverse of what the Nights King did in the past. He will not give his seed to the "Corpse Queen", but Val isn't the Corpse Queen this time around - a combo of Alys Karstark and Arya Stark is. The reason why the Corpse Queen is split in two is because Lyanna and Ashara's fates were also split in two.

The Karstarks are Starks. They are descended from a younger brother of an ancient Lord of Winterfell. Melisandre saw Alys in her flames and told Jon that his sister was riding for the Wall on a horse. Symbolically Alys is sister to the Nights King. She is fArya while Arya is "no one" making her symbolically "dead" - a corpse - thus together they represent the Corpse Queen.

Jon married Alys to the Magnar of Thenn who I theorize is a descendent of the original family that was forced out of Winterfell and beyond the Wall by a bastard brother named Jon Snow - he of the evil name. Inserting Alys into the marriage to represent the Corpse Queen reconnects a family that was once divided. Karstark is a branch on the Stark tree, whereas Stark was a whole new name that the bastard took when he legitimized himself. Symbolically he cut the tree down and planted a new one in its place. Marrying a Karstark to a Thenn grafts the two families onto the Stark tree. It's no accident that GRRM calls himself a gardener and chose the name "Stark" for his "bael" apple family tree.

[St Daga]

On 7/26/2019 at 1:23 PM, St Daga said:

On 7/22/2019 at 1:41 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I had toyed with that idea once upon a time, but I think the reason why Ned was sent to foster with Jon Arryn was to become his squire and learn to be a knight. I believe Lady Barbary's condemnation of Maester Walys for being the one to foster Rickard Stark's "southron ambitions" meant that he wanted to adopt the Andal practice of knighthood and adopt the training for his sons and closest men. I think Brandon was sent to foster with Lord Dustin at Barrowton to learn how to be a knight too, and that Rickard himself became a knight. Of course we don't have confirmation that Ned was ever knighted, but it might be because the Rebellion interfered and it got pushed aside. Squires often stay with their knights until they are knighted themselves and this would explain why Robert and Ned were still living with Jon Arryn when he called his banners.

Are there hint's of knighthood around Barrowtown or House Dustin? I am not sure about this connection to knighthood for the Stark's as you are, although I believe we did discuss (multiple heresy's ago) that Rickard Stark was wearing gold spurs when he died, which in our world is a sign of knighthood. This has never  been established as a part of knighthood in ASOIAF, though. Also, we know that Ned follows the old gods at the start of our story, and both Benjen Stark and Jon Snow took their Night's Watch vows in front of a weirwood tree. It seems to me that if Rickard wanted his son trained to be a knight in the north, he would have sent him to White Harbor. That is the house in the north that is linked to the Faith of the Seven. 

I have been going through the text trying to find idea's about golden spurs, knighthood and what steps a warrior might need to take to become a knight. We know there are some knights from the north, though it doesn't seem like a large amount. The Manderly's, and perhaps many of their subjects, have followed the Faith of the Seven apparently since they left the reach and came north. Don't know if Wyman is a knight, but his son's Wendel and Wylis both were knights. We have Ser Rodrik Cassel of Winterfell, Ser Jorah Mormont of Bear Island. I think several of the warriors pledged to House Manderly are knights, such as Ser Marlon Manderly. I am sure there are more known knights from the north that I am missing. Ser Bartimus is an example of a knight that serves House Manderly in the Wolf's Den who worships the old gods!

@Feather Crystal and I have discussed in the past if Rickard Stark could have been a knight. Several heresy's ago, discussion involved the idea that Jaime reports that the gold melted off of Rickard Stark's spurs when Aerys had him executed with wildfire. This was also part of a discussion two years ago on the Last Hearth board, and I questioned at this time what this entirely meant. That post is here, if anyone is interested (within that post is a link back to a discussion on Westeros from 2014 about this same subject). At the time of the LH thread, I questioned if that could mean that Rickard was a knight, which seems odd since we know the majority of the Stark's follow the Old Gods I also questioned if Jaime was misremembering (although it's an oddly specific detail to misremember), or if another man was in Rickard Stark's armor.

More recently, I questioned of gold spurs indicated knighthood in Westeros. That is something that shows up in our real world history, at least for some knights at certain times. I am sure not all knights could afford to have gold on their spurs. In the text, gold spurs are attributed often to Jaime Lannister (his golden armor is mentioned often, so I though this could be just his personal color choice), Arys Oakheart is also noted to have golden spurs and with Jaime and Arys being the main hits on my search, I wondered if this is a kingsguard concept. But in the Dunk and Egg novella's, we get the idea of "gilded" spurs a couple times, once in the Tourney at Ashford Meadows, where in the first jousting match, Dunk makes notes of ten pairs of gilded spurs, so all ten of these knights had gold on their spurs, and Sansa has a recollection (in Clash) of gilded spurs shining in the sun at the Hand's Tourney.

In a Barristan chapter in Dance, he gives us a hint at what he considers appropriate in making a knight, and how it applies to the young men he is training in Meereen to fill Dany's "queensguard".

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The Great Pyramid of Meereen was eight hundred feet high from base to point. The seneschal's chambers were on the second level. The queen's apartments, and his own, occupied the highest step. A long climb for a man my age, Ser Barristan thought, as he started up. He had been known to make that climb five or six times a day on the queen's business, as the aches in his knees and the small of his back could attest. There will come a day when I can no longer face these steps, he thought, and that day will be here sooner than I would like. Before it came, he must make certain that at least a few of his lads were ready to take his place at the queen's side. I will knight them myself when they are worthy, and give them each a horse and golden spurs. ADWD-The Queensguard

So here, Barristan makes a point of golden spurs being a part of knighthood, at least the knighthood he would like to bestow on some of these men.

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That made six. Six out of twenty-seven. Selmy might have hoped for more, but six was a good beginning. The other boys were younger for the most part, and more familiar with looms and plows and chamber pots than swords and shields, but they worked hard and learned quickly. A few years as squires, and he might have six more knights to give his queen. As for those who would never be ready, well, not every boy was meant to be a knight. The realm needs candlemakers and innkeeps and armorers as well. That was as true in Meereen as it was in Westeros.

As he watched them at their drills, Ser Barristan pondered raising Tumco and Larraq to knighthood then and there, and mayhaps the Red Lamb too. It required a knight to make a knight, and if something should go awry tonight, dawn might find him dead or in a dungeon. Who would dub his squires then? On the other hand, a young knight's repute derived at least in part from the honor of the man who conferred knighthood on him. It would do his lads no good at all if it was known that they were given their spurs by a traitor, and might well land them in the dungeon next to him. They deserve better, Ser Barristan decided. Better a long life as a squire than a short one as a soiled knight.

 

As the afternoon melted into evening, he bid his charges to lay down their swords and shields and gather round. He spoke to them about what it meant to be a knight. "It is chivalry that makes a true knight, not a sword," he said. "Without honor, a knight is no more than a common killer. It is better to die with honor than to live without it." The boys looked at him strangely, he thought, but one day they would understand. ADWD-The Kingbreaker

Here, Barristan is thinking of knighting Tumco Lho, a former slave originally from the Basilisk Isles, and Larraq the Lash, another former slave in Meereen. Both Tumco and Larraq are of the Ghiscari culture. Barristan doesn't approve of Larraq's fighting style with a whip and trident, but he thinks he is still worthy to be knighted. The Red Lamb, is of the Lhazareen culture, and is also a former slave. Barristan wants to knight them, but feels if he fails with Hizdar, then he does these young men more harm than good by knighting them.

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Ser Barristan took two of his new-made knights with him down into the dungeons. Grief and guilt had been known to drive good men into madness, and Archibald Yronwood and Gerris Drinkwater had both played roles in their friend's demise. But when they reached the cell, he told Tum and the Red Lamb to wait outside whilst he went in to tell the Dornish that the prince's agony was over. ADWD-The Queen's Hand

Barristan does make some of these men knights, although if it's three or six of them, I don't know. One presumes that he gifted them with a horse and golden spurs like he had thought to do. But my question is, what was the process that Barristan used to knight them, did they serve any kind of vigil, and how do two Ghiscari and one Lhazareen adapt to the Faith of the Seven, if that is necessary, in them becoming knights? I haven't found any idea of these young men that Barristan is training to be educated in the Faith, or who would even do that for them in Meereen. 

So, it seems like golden spurs do indicate knighthood, at least if you can afford such a thing as golden spurs, but not every knight is noted to have gold spurs. We know some men are knighted on battlefields, and probably serve some type of vigil later, which is how Jaime describes his process. Jorah was given his knighthood for actions during the Greyjoy rebellion, but we never hear if he serves a vigil or follows the Faith of the Seven. We never see Jorah praying to the Seven, if that is the case.

So, Rickard Stark! Was he a knight. I do think it's possible, if Jaime's recollection is correct, and if no other man was in Rickard armor when he burned. I know that sounds crazy, but we do have precedent in the text for a man to be suspended over flames and executed but turn out not to be the man who everyone thought was being executed. Rattleshirt was executed under a glamour to look like Mance Rayder. We also have the idea of hidden identities of men wearing armor that is presented in the text. Two of the details that Jaime gives us about Rickard Stark's execution always stood out to me, gold spurs and cherry-red breastplate.

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"As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree." ACOK-Catelyn VII

They seem like clues. So, perhaps the golden spurs does fit the idea of Rickard's southron ambitions and him being a knight. Or something is off in Jaime's memory. The cherry-red breastplate is something else I have speculated on for a couples years, but don't want to bog this post down with that. My question is, do you have to convert to the Faith of the Seven to become a knight? I don't think we have any proof either way in the text. There is no indication from Barristan that such a thing is important or necessary when he knights some of the young men he has been training. I am not sure that every knight ever serves a vigil in a sept, even if they are knighted in battle or in dire times. Duncan the Tall does not, although it's debatable if he was ever truly knighted by Ser Arlan of Penneytree. 

 

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"How many knights?"

"Few enough," the maester said with a touch of impatience. "To be a knight, you must stand your vigil in a sept, and be anointed with the seven oils to consecrate your vows. In the north, only a few of the great houses worship the Seven. The rest honor the old gods, and name no knights … but those lords and their sons and sworn swords are no less fierce or loyal or honorable. A man's worth is not marked by a ser before his name. As I have told you a hundred times before."

 

"Still," said Bran, "how many knights?" AGOT-Bran VI

We do know that Bran wanted to be a knight of the Kingsguard, and Maester Luwin discusses knighthood and northern ways with Bran.  Luwin does state a vigil must be served in a sept and you have to be anointed with seven oils to consecrate your vows.  However, we do see some exceptions of this, such as Sandor Clegane, who is certainly not a knight, but does serve as a Kingsguard "knight". We are told that "knighthood" is a prerequisite of becoming a kingsguard, yet we are given examples that make us question this. Like much of GRRM's text, things are often vague and open to interpretation.

So, after spending days looking for hints of gold spurs, earning knighthoods, vigil's in septs, what "anointing" might mean in our text (it is used for naming children, for knighting ceremonies and anointing kings, but nothing specifically about converting to the Faith), I will say I don't have a more solid answer than I did before. Like much of this text, the more I read, the more grey area I see.

Could Rickard Stark have been a knight? He could have been. Or not. He did serve in the War of the Ninepenny Kings, which is where Aerys earned his knighthood, an honor that was bestowed by Tywin Lannister, so perhaps there is something to this war and certain men who served it in. IF Rickard was a knight, does that mean he followed the Faith of the Seven? I am less convinced of this, but it is certainly possible. Most anything is possible in this story. Does every man who becomes a knight have to follow the Faith? Based on two Ghiscari and one Lhazareen that Barristan gives knightood to, I don't think it's a requirement, although some men may chose to do this. In a chapter from Winds, the Red Lamb of the Lhazareen, knighted by Barristan, does make a comment that seems anti-The Great Shephard of the Lhazareen, so perhaps that is a sign he has converted.  Vague, it's all so vague!

I will try to find the link to the previous Heresy that this was discussed in, but I am fearful if I attempt to find it now, I will lose my whole post!

 

[St Daga]

23 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Interesting parallel between white shadows and black shadows, however no on notices heat around the black shadows, and they don't seem to last very long, they don't seem to be able to control the dead, and they are driven to do a single task.  Just too many differences imo.

The black shadow is cold, or so Renly seems to tell us just before his death. That makes it similar to the white shadows.  I don't know that we know enough about the white shadows to understand if they are driven to do one or more tasks, or if they really do control the dead. I don't know what happens to the black shadows, but they might not die, only disappear. They might only be hard to see, which might be the case with the white shadow's too.

 

23 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Is there any connection beyond what is burned?  I didn't see these as related.

I think the theory is that Varys's was trained as Unsullied. Is it only his man parts that burn blue, or could this be all of the boys that serve? I don't know. Not my theory, but it is interesting that both the Unsullied and Varys are cut root and stem and their parts are given to the fire.

 

21 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The difference may lie in the process and Mel doesn't seem to be as good at working magic as she pretends to be, but fundamentally I believe that it comes back to that line about how Ice preserves while Fire consumes.

I wonder what kind of shadow she could give birth to at the wall, where see says her powers are so much greater?

 

3 hours ago, Martyn Bull said:

As far I remember, Mel never tries to birth a shadow North of the wall. Could be whatever spells are in the wall makes it a hard time being a shadow south of it. 

Maybe being north or south of the wall matters, when it comes to birthing shadow's.

 

[LynnS]

On 8/1/2019 at 1:54 PM, Black Crow said:

I think that the basic principles are the same in that in both cases we're looking at spirits detached from their parent bodies - remember Mel's comment about taking too much from Stannis.

The difference may lie in the process and Mel doesn't seem to be as good at working magic as she pretends to be, but fundamentally I believe that it comes back to that line about how Ice preserves while Fire consumes.

Craster's boys appear to be able to run around indefinitely for so long as its cold enough to preserve their icy form, while on the other hand Mel's black shadows are smoke and easily consumed because they have no way of assuming a copororeal form

One of the things that stands out for me on my re-read, is that Stannis dreams of killing Renly when Mel births  Stannis' shadow.  So there is a connection of sorts between the his shadow and Stannis.

So I wonder if the shadow babies on the ice side are actually the wights; since they have the blue eyes of the WW's and are perhaps made by them.  Given that the WW are never supposed to be far from the wights when they are active, and seem to act in unison at times; could it be that they are connected to the WWs in the same way that Stannis is connected to his own shadow?   The killing cold takes the life force from the living, a requirement for making a shadow baby and the WW use a part of their shadow to create the wights.  

Thoros tells us that something of his own lifeforce is used up when he resurrects Beric and Mel must use some her own resources as well.  Davos calls Mel, the mother of shadows.  Perhaps the WWs do something similar to the wights except that using a body or an ice shell allows them to remain corporeal.  The reason why Mel says the Great Other is the most dangerous adversary. 

 

[St Daga]

On 8/1/2019 at 8:01 AM, Jova Snow said:

Yeah I do think there is a connection between Varys' story if it's real and the Unsullied, do you think the Great Other might be Night's King Queen? I remember a thread about Bael and NsK, maybe tGO was a Stark woman - daughter of Brandon the Daughterless? 

I actually would rather like it if the Great Other was a female. It balances out the idea that R'hller as a god is a male. And maybe that is why the shadows she births seem to be more powerful or long lasting than the shadows that Mel gives birth too! 

[St Daga]

21 hours ago, LynnS said:

One of the things that stands out for me on my re-read, is that Stannis dreams of killing Renly when Mel births  Stannis' shadow.  So there is a connection of sorts between the his shadow and Stannis.

This makes me wonder about Mel's second shadow, the one that Davos see's born and that seems responsible for Ser Cortnay Penrose's death? If the shadow threw Penrose from the walls of Storm's End, does Stannis have some dream-memory of this too? He talks about how Mel seen Ser Cortnay's death in her fires, but that is before he sends Davos to bring Mel under Storm's End.

I also wonder if there have been only two shadow babies for Mel and Stannis. That is all that we are told about, but is two enough to drain him so completely? It does seem a contrast to the idea of the Night's King and Night's Queen, who lived together for 13 years. Perhaps there wasn't constant "seed" giving in that relationship, or perhaps it's not at all the same as what I am seeing from Mel and Stannis.

Something about the stone men inflicted with grey scale seems like it might be a balance to the wights. A slow death, but still basically walking zombies near the end, where as the wight's are dead-dead and then reanimated. The blue light in their eyes does make them different from the stone men, though. Like something is powering them. 

22 hours ago, LynnS said:

Given that the WW are never supposed to be far from the wights when they are active, and seem to act in unison at times; could it be that they are connected to the WWs in the same way that Stannis is connected to his own shadow?

This could turn out to be the case.

 

[Black Crow]

14 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This could turn out to be the case.

I'm not so sure. In the first place the spirit seems to be still trapped in the bones, and more importantly there's a simple question of arithmetic. If, as I think is being implied, its suggested that the wights are the husks left behind after their spirits have been drawn off to create the walkers then there ought to be as many if not more walkers than wights. Yet the reverse is the case. We find large numbers of wights - whole armies of them - with only a couple of walkers riding herd. The most we've ever seen at one time were the six who scragged Ser Waymar.

[Brad Stark]

32 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This makes me wonder about Mel's second shadow, the one that Davos see's born and that seems responsible for Ser Cortnay Penrose's death? If the shadow threw Penrose from the walls of Storm's End, does Stannis have some dream-memory of this too? He talks about how Mel seen Ser Cortnay's death in her fires, but that is before he sends Davos to bring Mel under Storm's End.

I also wonder if there have been only two shadow babies for Mel and Stannis. That is all that we are told about, but is two enough to drain him so completely? It does seem a contrast to the idea of the Night's King and Night's Queen, who lived together for 13 years. Perhaps there wasn't constant "seed" giving in that relationship, or perhaps it's not at all the same as what I am seeing from Mel and Stannis.

Something about the stone men inflicted with grey scale seems like it might be a balance to the wights. A slow death, but still basically walking zombies near the end, where as the wight's are dead-dead and then reanimated. The blue light in their eyes does make them different from the stone men, though. Like something is powering them. 

This could turn out to be the case.

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see Mel draining Stannis in ways other than creating the Shadow babies.   But 2 shadows are powerful, and if she could create many more, she'd be far too powerful.   Renly was basically defenseless against his fate.