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Black Crow

Heresy 225 and the Snowflakes of Doom

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On 8/4/2019 at 1:39 PM, LynnS said:

Specifically she creates a shadow by taking something from Stannis.  She make take his seed but she also takes some of his life force.  She contributes a part of herself in the form of the shadow.  But either way her shadow babies are similar to Othor and Jafr.  They have to be taken across the Wall and Mel has to have Davos take her into Storms End.  Then she releases the shadow assassin.  The Wights are free to move once they are taken beyond the Wall. 

We know that she contributes her womb in the making of the shadow, but we don't really know how the shadow knew what to do or where to go. She may have directed this as well. Stannis does seem to dream of the incident with Renly, so it seems he is connected in some way to the shadow, but whether he directed it or was a passive observer is hard to say. And how the shadow knew what to do is a guess, I think. And that shadow did not need to be taken over any protective barrier to make it work, so that makes it different than the shadow she released under Storm's End.

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:52 PM, LynnS said:

Well, this is what happens when she breaks the glamor:

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

He leaves me no choice. So be it. "Devan, leave us," she said, and the squire slipped away and closed the door behind him.

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word.

The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. The ruby on the wildling's wrist darkened, and the wisps of light and shadow around him writhed and faded.

 

She glamoured Rattleshirt and there is no ruby sighting involved with that. Perhaps that is why she had to work harder and was more affected by Rattleshirt's burning, because there was no jewel to help her control that situation?

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:39 PM, LynnS said:

At Dragonstone, she uses leaches with Edric's blood because she deems Stannis too weak to continue using his blood. 

As you pointed out further in the discussion, she used Edric's blood to fool Stannis into believing in her power. The blood and leaches did nothing that lead to Balon and Robb and Joffrey's deaths. She had already known those deaths would happen. Therefore, the leaches were only meant to manipulate Stannis. So, what would she have really done if she could have burned Edric? Perhaps it was just another ploy to manipulate Stannis? This then is very different than what she does with Stannis' seed. As far as we know, she never uses Stannis' blood, or perhaps I have missed that. 

 

On 8/4/2019 at 1:39 PM, LynnS said:

However, I'm talking about he similarities between the shadows themselves.  Mel's shadows are smoke and dissipate once their purpose is served.  The advantage that the WW have over Mel may be that they trap their shadows in the corpses of the living that they kill.  The evidence of their connection to the WW is their blue eyes.  So they can puppet them around so long as the corpse serves as a host for the shadows they create.  But like Mel, their shadows have to be taken across the magical barrier.  

I see it differently, although I understand the path you are highlighting. I also don't think Mel's shadow's are necessarily made of smoke. Not one time are they described as smoke, and smoke is not even described in the birthing process with the shadows. Shadow's are a thing of the light she says, and light doesn't always require flame. She does say the greater the torch, the greater the shadow, but sunlight can also cast a shadow. And so can moonlight. I guess one could argue that sunlight is just a huge ball of flame, but it doesn't always mean there is smoke.

I also don't think her shadow's dissipate into nothing when she is done. We don't know what happened to the shadow that killed Renly, because everyone was focused on Renly's death and the chaos afterwards. We don't see the shadow the supposedly killed Ser Cortnay at all, so we can't even begin to say what happened to it afterward.   Just like we rarely see the Other's in the text, but we have multiple sightings of wights.  I don't think a shadow needs a skin suit to wear and operate. Perhaps I have Meathouse Man and that animation of dead bodies to firmly in my head that I have a hard time thinking that the shadow's live within the dead. :dunno:

As to Mel's shadow's, my guess (and that's all it is) is that Mel doesn't really understand what she is unleashing into the world. She doesn't understand her own power or it's consequences fully. Similar to Dany's hatching of dragons. She doesn't really understand what she has unleashed into the world. The dragon's are also referred to as shadows, although GRRM uses shadow a lot and so I doubt all of the uses can be connected. 

 

 

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19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It would be ironic of course if R+L=J was true but R stood for Robert rather than Rhaegar.

While I'm not sure I'm ready to go down that particular rabbit hole I am nevertheless reminded of the constant dichotomy of black and white in this story and that while the saintly Targaryens are while/silver of hair, Jon Snow patently is not. 

[I can recall a suggestion made in another place of how splendid it would be - or words to that effect - if having been slain at Castle Black, Jon would not only be brought back to life by Our Mel, but would awaken with his hair turned silver white!]

As to Pycelle, Varys, Tywin Lannister and the Blessed St, John of Arryn, we obviously still don't know at this stage what was really going on, or how many factions there actually were in the pit of vipers commonly known as Harrenhal, but I think that what we do know only goes to emphasise what I said earlier; that Lyanna was a casualty of war, not the cause of it.

 

And, I have a feeling that GRRM doesn't know what was really going on either :P

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Mentally and emotionally, yes, and that gave her the sensation of great pain, but physically she was safe. I think the thing she was in danger of with Rattleshirt's burning was letting the glamour fade before she was ready.

Maintaining the glamour was certainly her goal, but the text is blatantly clear about her physical pain:

Quote

When the flames had licked at Rattleshirt, the ruby at her throat had grown so hot that she had feared her own flesh might start to smoke and blacken.

This is not some mental illusion.  If it were an illusion, the text would read something like this:

Quote

When the flames had licked at Rattleshirt, her entire body felt very hot, like Rattleshirt's must have to him, but she wasn't worried because she knew factually that this sensation was only in her mind.

Also worth noting:

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Melisandre of Asshai took the cup from his hands and drank long and deep. There was only half a swallow of wine remaining when she offered it back to him. "And now you."

His hands were shaking, but he made himself be strong. A maester of the Citadel must not be afraid. The wine was sour on his tongue. He let the empty cup drop from his fingers to shatter on the floor. "He does have power here, my lord," the woman said. "And fire cleanses." At her throat, the ruby shimmered redly.

There is no glamour applied to Cressen.  However, she clearly just drank a fatal dose of poison -- far more than Cressen's dose, which killed him. 

I think it's quite safe to say she used magic to save her life and the ruby was in some sense involved.  There is a solvable mystery there.

More subtly, notice the phrase "Melisandre of Asshai" is from Cressen's perspective.  This is why the app identifies her place of origin as Asshai, even though we know from her own thoughts in ADWD that she is not from there; it's because people believe she is from there.

The rest of the app is the same.  It is not a source of objective truth, but only widespread beliefs, some of which are true and some of which are bullshit.

Edited by JNR

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4 hours ago, St Daga said:

I see it differently, although I understand the path you are highlighting. I also don't think Mel's shadow's are necessarily made of smoke.

Perhaps.  I'm going from this:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

 

I think her contribution to shadow making is her smoking black blood.

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Posted (edited)

I came across this passage and now I have to read the Dunk and Egg novellas again to find out about Aemon's brothers and their dreams:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV

"I will," Sam promised. "I will add my voice to yours, maester. We will both tell them, the two of us together."

"No," the old man said. "It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy . . . my brother's dream . . . Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis . . . Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it . . . their father's mother . . . she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope . . . perhaps I wanted to . . . we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that . . . light without heat . . . an empty glamor . . . the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope. Tell them that, at the Citadel. Make them listen. They must send her a maester. Daenerys must be counseled, taught, protected. For all these years I've lingered, waiting, watching, and now that the day has dawned I am too old. I am dying, Sam." Tears ran from his blind white eyes at that admission. "Death should hold no fear for a man as old as me, but it does. Isn't that silly? It is always dark where I am, so why should I fear the darkness? Yet I cannot help but wonder what will follow, when the last warmth leaves my body. Will I feast forever in the Father's golden hall as the septons say? Will I talk with Egg again, find Dareon whole and happy, hear my sisters singing to their children? What if the horselords have the truth of it? Will I ride through the night sky forever on a stallion made of flame? Or must I return again to this vale of sorrow? Who can say, truly? Who has been beyond the wall of death to see? Only the wights, and we know what they are like. We know."

 

 

Edited by LynnS

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21 hours ago, JNR said:

Maintaining the glamour was certainly her goal, but the text is blatantly clear about her physical pain:

Quote

When the flames had licked at Rattleshirt, the ruby at her throat had grown so hot that she had feared her own flesh might start to smoke and blacken.

This is not some mental illusion.  If it were an illusion, the text would read something like this:

Quote

When the flames had licked at Rattleshirt, her entire body felt very hot, like Rattleshirt's must have to him, but she wasn't worried because she knew factually that this sensation was only in her mind.

 

You are clearly less vague in your prose than GRRM is in his!

I agree that is what the sensation felt like to her, but does she show any physical signs of scorched skin or blackens skin or burns of any kind? The closest think I could find is this: 

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The red woman's robes of deep-dyed scarlet swirled about her, and her coppery hair made a halo round her face. Tall yellow flames danced from her fingertips like claws. "FREE FOLK! Your false gods cannot help you. Your false horn did not save you. Your false king brought you only death, despair, defeat … but here stands the true king. BEHOLD HIS GLORY!" ADWD-Jon III

Rattleshirt is dead at this point, and Mel's POV reports she felt relief at his death. Perhaps during the burning, Jon was more focused on the burning cage that watching Melisandre apparent suffering, but after Rattleshirt is dead, Jon makes note of her lecturing the wildlings, and she doesn't seem distressed. The closest thing to her being on fire is the "yellow flames dancing from her fingertips". Perhaps that is a glamour or or her fun powders, perhaps it's her internal fire burning and her fingertips are like a relief valve? I guess it all comes down to interpretation.

 

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24 minutes ago, St Daga said:

You are clearly less vague in your prose than GRRM is in his!

Well, I am on this site.  :thumbsup:

26 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I agree that is what the sensation felt like to her, but does she show any physical signs of scorched skin or blackens skin or burns of any kind?

If so, I would expect it to be in an invisible place: under the ruby.  The ruby, after all, is the thing she says is super-hot.  The skin where the ruby sits is the only part of her body she thinks is scorched.

But we don't really need to take a look. We know directly from her own thoughts that she was literally afraid her skin was blackening -- she is not invulnerable.

This premise is trotted out and reinforced in that same chapter in another way, as Lynn pointed out earlier:

Quote

If the wildling had meant her harm, she would have seen it in her flames. Danger to her own person was the first thing she had learned to see, back when she was still half a child, a slave girl bound for life to the great red temple. It was still the first thing she looked for whenever she gazed into a fire.

If she were invulnerable, she wouldn't bother looking for danger because nothing could hurt her.  Instead, looking for danger is her first priority.

So while we know she can do some things to protect herself (cf Cressen and poison), it's evident there are sharp limits, and she is aware of those limits.

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3 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, I am on this site.  :thumbsup:

If so, I would expect it to be in an invisible place: under the ruby.  The ruby, after all, is the thing she says is super-hot.  The skin where the ruby sits is the only part of her body she thinks is scorched.

But we don't really need to take a look. We know directly from her own thoughts that she was literally afraid her skin was blackening -- she is not invulnerable.

This premise is trotted out and reinforced in that same chapter in another way, as Lynn pointed out earlier:

If she were invulnerable, she wouldn't bother looking for danger because nothing could hurt her.  Instead, looking for danger is her first priority.

So while we know she can do some things to protect herself (cf Cressen and poison), it's evident there are sharp limits, and she is aware of those limits.

If there is an ice counterpart to Melisandre, I were to expect her / him to wear a choker with a blue sapphire?

"Sapphire buries memories that won't stay dead ..."

(obscure rock lyrics: Sapphire by the Divine Horsemen)

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18 hours ago, LynnS said:

Perhaps.  I'm going from this:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

 

I think her contribution to shadow making is her smoking black blood.

Yes, and I can see why you associate these to what comes from her womb.This is an interesting bit of text about Melisandre. Black blood that smokes, agony, searing pain. It almost sounds like her shadow birth. But in this case, she is looking into her flames and seeing visions. She currently is not birthing a shadow. You might end up being correct on her black shadow's being made of smoke. My thoughts are that shadows are things of light. And one day in the text, we might see another shadow that someone notes smells like smoke or blood, but so far we don't see that. It just comes down to different interpretations, and gosh knows that is fine. If we all interpreted the text in the same way, we would never see the other possibilities in it.

 

Last night I did try to look at mentions of "blood" and "smoke" in the text and there are several. A few stood out to me, although I don't know if they could connect back to Melisandre.

Quote

Of all the rooms in Winterfell's Great Keep, Catelyn's bedchambers were the hottest. She seldom had to light a fire. The castle had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man's body, driving the chill from the stone halls, filling the glass gardens with a moist warmth, keeping the earth from freezing. Open pools smoked day and night in a dozen small courtyards. That was a little thing, in summer; in winter, it was the difference between life and death. AGOT-Catelyn II

It's always been interesting to me that Cat thinks of the pools as smoking, and not steaming, which seems like that is how a person would describe the mist above the hot pools. Steam, but instead, we get the wording smoke. And blood with Winterfell's internal radiator system. 

 

Quote

 

The king still wore his boots. Ned could see dried mud and blades of grass clinging to the leather where Robert's feet stuck out beneath the blanket that covered him. A green doublet lay on the floor, slashed open and discarded, the cloth crusted with red-brown stains. The room smelled of smoke and blood and death.
 
"Ned," the king whispered when he saw him. His face was pale as milk. "Come … closer." AGOT-Eddard XIII

 

Smoke and blood and also death. These are things that remind me of Melisandre. I have been a fan of the idea that it was Bloodraven who sent the boar that killed Robert (the idea of the spear through it's eye leads me there, as well as the skinchanging) but suddenly I am wondering about Melisandre. Just how long has she been striving to make Stannis the king? Except the boar was a real boar, it dies and they eat it, so it's not a shadow, but this idea of smoke and blood hovering over Robert in near death does make me wonder. We don't hear of Mel until Clash, but do we really know how long she has been serving Stannis?

 

Quote

She could smell the odor of burning flesh, no different than horseflesh roasting in a firepit. The pyre roared in the deepening dusk like some great beast, drowning out the fainter sound of Mirri Maz Duur's screaming and sending up long tongues of flame to lick at the belly of the night. As the smoke grew thicker, the Dothraki backed away, coughing. Huge orange gouts of fire unfurled their banners in that hellish wind, the logs hissing and cracking, glowing cinders rising on the smoke to float away into the dark like so many newborn fireflies. The heat beat at the air with great red wings, driving the Dothraki back, driving off even Mormont, but Dany stood her ground. She was the blood of the dragon, and the fire was in her. AGOT-Daenerys X

Dany playing at magic for the first time, with smoke and blood and screams and she had a fire inside of her, all of which remind me of Melisandre.

 

Quote

 

The cream-and-gold dragon was suckling at her left breast, the green-and-bronze at the right. Her arms cradled them close. The black-and-scarlet beast was draped across her shoulders, its long sinuous neck coiled under her chin. When it saw Jorah, it raised its head and looked at him with eyes as red as coals.
 
Wordless, the knight fell to his knees. The men of her khas came up behind him. Jhogo was the first to lay his arakh at her feet. "Blood of my blood," he murmured, pushing his face to the smoking earth. "Blood of my blood," she heard Aggo echo. "Blood of my blood," Rakharo shouted.
 
And after them came her handmaids, and then the others, all the Dothraki, men and women and children, and Dany had only to look at their eyes to know that they were hers now, today and tomorrow and forever, hers as they had never been Drogo's. AGOT-Daenerys X

 

Dany, after her blood sacrifice and now surrounded by smoking earth, is binding people to her. In a way, this is what Mel is attempting to do with binding the people to Stannis when they give Mance/Rattleshirt to the flames, and then when the wildlings are made to give the weirwood to the fire, as well.

 

From part of Dany's HotUD visions:

Quote

 

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . 

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . .  ACOK-Daenerys IV

 

Rubies and blood, smoke and shadow fire. Again, hints of Mel, or at least perhaps it associates to R'hller? Shadow fire is interesting, and perhaps that relates back to Mel's babies? :dunno:

 

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Warm and dry in a corner between Gendry and Harwin, Arya listened to the singing for a time, then closed her eyes and drifted off to sleep. She dreamt of home; not Riverrun, but Winterfell. It was not a good dream, though. She was alone outside the castle, up to her knees in mud. She could see the grey walls ahead of her, but when she tried to reach the gates every step seemed harder than the one before, and the castle faded before her, until it looked more like smoke than granite. And there were wolves as well, gaunt grey shapes stalking through the trees all around her, their eyes shining. Whenever she looked at them, she remembered the taste of blood. ASOS-Arya III

A dream of Arya's, and another association to blood and smoke in regards to Winterfell. Also wolves with shining eyes and mud.

 

Quote

 

The leech was twisting in the king's grip, trying to attach itself to one of his fingers. "The usurper," he said. "Joffrey Baratheon." When he tossed the leech into the fire, it curled up like an autumn leaf amidst the coals, and burned.
 
Stannis grasped the second. "The usurper," he declared, louder this time. "Balon Greyjoy." He flipped it lightly onto the brazier, and its flesh split and cracked. The blood burst from it, hissing and smoking.
 
The last was in the king's hand. This one he studied a moment as it writhed between his fingers. "The usurper," he said at last. "Robb Stark." And he threw it on the flames. ASOS-Davos IV

 

Mel again and those bloody leaches. But this seems more act to deceive than actual magic, at least to me.

 

Quote

 

"All you have to give, Jon Snow. He is a king."
 
He shut the door and pulled the bell cord. The winch began to turn. They rose. The day was bright and the Wall was weeping, long fingers of water trickling down its face and glinting in the sun. In the close confines of the iron cage, he was acutely aware of the red woman's presence. She even smells red. The scent reminded him of Mikken's forge, of the way iron smelled when red-hot; the scent was smoke and blood. Kissed by fire, he thought, remembering Ygritte. The wind got in amongst Melisandre's long red robes and sent them flapping against Jon's legs as he stood beside her. "You are not cold, my lady?" he asked her.
 
She laughed. "Never." The ruby at her throat seemed to pulse, in time with the beating of her heart. "The Lord's fire lives within me, Jon Snow. Feel." She put her hand on his cheek, and held it there while he felt how warm she was. "That is how life should feel," she told him. "Only death is cold." ASOS-Jon XI

 

Mel again, blood and smoke, red hot iron, kissed by fire. But why is her ruby pulsing here? What magic is she trying to work on Jon, or does her ruby always pulse in time to her beating heart. Does her heart even beat? :dunno: This brings to mind Ygritte and her "kissed by fire" hair.

 

Quote

 

And when it seemed the sound would never end, it did.
 
The hornblower's breath failed at last. He staggered and almost fell. The priest saw Orkwood of Orkmont catch him by one arm to hold him up, whilst Left-Hand Lucas Codd took the twisted black horn from his hands. A thin wisp of smoke was rising from the horn, and the priest saw blood and blisters upon the lips of the man who'd sounded it. The bird on his chest was bleeding too. AFFC-The Drowned Man

 

Dragonbinder, associated with Valyria, if Euron is to be believed. A horn that brought fire and smoke to the blower, and eventual death.

 

Quote

 

"He would know." Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king's son, a king's brother, a king's uncle. "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."
 
Clydas blinked. "A sword that makes its own heat …" ADWD-Jon III

 

Blood and smoke associated with the Azor Ahai myth, but what I find interesting is how this description reminds me of Rickard Stark's execution. Perhaps this would work for any person who is given to the flames, but the details remind me of Rickard's death, and also Jon's dream of "his father's face" melting after the fight with wight Othor.

 

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"Some smaller than others." Valyria. It was written that on the day of Doom every hill for five hundred miles had split asunder to fill the air with ash and smoke and fire, blazes so hot and hungry that even the dragons in the sky were engulfed and consumed. Great rents had opened in the earth, swallowing palaces, temples, entire towns. Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons, and to the north the ground splintered and collapsed and fell in on itself and an angry sea came rushing in. The proudest city in all the world was gone in an instant, its fabled empire vanished in a day, the Lands of the Long Summer scorched and drowned and blighted. ADWD-Tyrion VIII

Valyria again, blood and smoke and fire, along with dragonglass and demon blood and scorched earth. Is this what Melisandre is attempting to bring to Westeros? Also interesting to me is the word association with "drowned" in the destruction of Valyrian. Drowned makes me think of the Iron Born, of Euron and Aeron, Did water attempt to quench the fires of Valyria? Or just try to complete it's destruction?

 

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His hair smelled of blood and smoke and horse, and his mouth was hard and hot on hers. Dany trembled in his arms. When they broke apart, she said, "I thought you would be the one to betray me. Once for blood and once for gold and once for love, the warlocks said. I thought … I never thought Brown Ben. Even my dragons seemed to trust him." She clutched her captain by the shoulders. "Promise me that you will never turn against me. I could not bear that. Promise me." ADWD-Daenerys VI

 

Daario! And then a little "promise me". Blood and smoke and a promise!

 

Quote

His head turned. Smoke rose between his teeth. His blood was smoking too, where it dripped upon the ground. He beat his wings again, sending up a choking storm of scarlet sand. Dany stumbled into the hot red cloud, coughing. He snapped. ADWD-Daenerys IX

Drogon, all blood and smoke and smoking blood, a storm of scarlet sand and hot red clouds. 

 

There are multiple interesting quotes that include blood and smoke in the story, I just pulled a few (actually a few more than I had planned). Definitely there is an association with Melisandre and also Daenerys. Valyria and dragons, not surprising. Red hair, kissed by fire, Ygritte. But Winterfell also, which is interesting, possibly just because it's a refuge in the winter and perhaps from winter, but also perhaps another hint of dragons associated with Winterfell. Arya has several "smoke and blood" quotes, which I didn't really expect. Jon has several, the majority associate to Mel, but not all of them. Dany seems to embrace the smoke and blood, while Jon seems cautious, perhaps even alarmed. 

Perhaps GRRM just likes to use the words blood and smoke, and all of these things are not connected, but it's fun to look through the text and see what jumps out at me!

 

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10 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Dany playing at magic for the first time, with smoke and blood and screams and she had a fire inside of her, all of which remind me of Melisandre.

Indeed!  I would say in this instance Dany was cleansed by spiritual fire which is why  Melisandre says that fire purifies.  Although Mel hasn't been purified in the same manner.

Although, I do have the strange notion that the red god is actually a dragon held in the their great red temple in Volantis.  I'd go so far as to say the last dragon god.  By that I mean a dragon that contains the soul of a Targaryen.  I think dragons are a link or conduit to fire magic for sorcerers who know how to access it.  

Oddly, when the pyromancers are making wildfire for Tyrion, one of the alchemists ask if there are dragons around.  When Tyrion asks him why, he says that their spells are more potent.   It's the same with the firemage in Qaarth.

Mel also insists the R'hllor exists and is specifically, a male.     

 

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26 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I have been a fan of the idea that it was Bloodraven who sent the boar that killed Robert (the idea of the spear through it's eye leads me there, as well as the skinchanging) but suddenly I am wondering about Melisandre. Just how long has she been striving to make Stannis the king? Except the boar was a real boar, it dies and they eat it, so it's not a shadow, but this idea of smoke and blood hovering over Robert in near death does make me wonder. We don't hear of Mel until Clash, but do we really know how long she has been serving Stannis?

Another hint to this could be Renly's ham reply to "Born amidst smoke and salt" Ham is made of pork, a boar is wild pork, smoke ...

A bit constructed, yes.

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2 hours ago, alienarea said:

If there is an ice counterpart to Melisandre, I were to expect her / him to wear a choker with a blue sapphire?

"Sapphire buries memories that won't stay dead ..."

(obscure rock lyrics: Sapphire by the Divine Horsemen)

Interesting, I have never heard of this song before. I do think that sapphires could be serving as an opposition to rubies and fire in the story. Sapphires associated with ice. Sapphires like Symeon Star-eyes eyes, blue like the eyes of the Other's and wights, blue like the stones that I think were in Waymar Royce's sword. Brienne and the sapphire isle is for the blue of it's waters, yet Brienne has magnificent blue eyes. There are a lot of interesting sapphire mentions in the story.

2 hours ago, alienarea said:
2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I have been a fan of the idea that it was Bloodraven who sent the boar that killed Robert (the idea of the spear through it's eye leads me there, as well as the skinchanging) but suddenly I am wondering about Melisandre. Just how long has she been striving to make Stannis the king? Except the boar was a real boar, it dies and they eat it, so it's not a shadow, but this idea of smoke and blood hovering over Robert in near death does make me wonder. We don't hear of Mel until Clash, but do we really know how long she has been serving Stannis?

Another hint to this could be Renly's ham reply to "Born amidst smoke and salt" Ham is made of pork, a boar is wild pork, smoke ...

A bit constructed, yes.

Hmm! The "ham" exchange is from the show, but beyond being very funny, perhaps there is more to the ham/pork/boar connection that it seems. GRRM was still heavily involved in the show at that time. I think Melisandre is capable of a lot of things, and perhaps she was at work in the story long before we meet her. Ned's downfall is tied to Robert's. so if Mel and Stannis are responsible for what happened to Robert, and therefore Ned, I wonder how Jon might react if he knew? He has given Stannis good advice to help Stannis win the war against the Lannister's, but perhaps Mel is one of the enemies around Jon, which is something she warn him about early in Dance, I think

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Indeed!  I would say in this instance Dany was cleansed by spiritual fire which is why  Melisandre says that fire purifies.  Although Mel hasn't been purified in the same manner.

I have always wondered if Mel had been burned, walked into fire at some point. Those R'hller priests are rather fanatical. She and Mocorro seem almost unhuman. Anyway, fire is both life and death, depending on how it's used. Jon is told this in Clash, "Fire is life up here," said Qhorin Halfhand, "but it can be death as well." If Mel was almost killed by her magic when she had Rattleshirt burned, then perhaps this should be considered a warning to Daenerys that she might not survive another such fire as the pyre that hatched the dragons?

 

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Although, I do have the strange notion that the red god is actually a dragon held in the their great red temple in Volantis.  I'd go so far as to say the last dragon god.  By that I mean a dragon that contains the soul of a Targaryen.  I think dragons are a link or conduit to fire magic for sorcerers who know how to access it.  

I like this idea, a lot! I have always found the red dragon on the Targaryen sigil to be odd. It seems to be that Aegon should have picked a black dragon, to represent Balerion, being his oldest, strongest dragon, and one that came from Valyria. But he chooses a red dragon. Why? I have wondered if the Targaryen's very first family dragon was red and it lived on in family lore, and Aegon was nodding to it when he chose his Westerosi sigil. I have also wondered if dreams lead the Targaryen's to quest for a red dragon? I think there are a couple red dragons that are noted of the Targaryen dragons, Caraxes the Blood Wyrm and Meleys, the Red Queen.  But perhaps it ties to this idea you have of red god/red temple and a dragon that is held or bound. Could that dragon be red? Could this be linked to Dany's search for a stone house with a red door?

Also, if there is a dragon held or trapped in a temple in Volantis, could that give a little credence to the theories that think there is a dragon trapped under Winterfell. There is the tower with gargoyles, which seems an unusual thing to be found in Winterfell. There is the hot pools that "smoke" instead of steam, the heat that runs through the walls of the castle like blood. Of course, Winterfell also has the odd "icy breath" in the crypts, and the cold black pool that seems almost to counter the idea of a fire dragon. But perhaps that is all to hold something in check, to hold a balance? I'm just spitballing crazy thoughts, now...

 

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, St Daga said:

I have always wondered if Mel had been burned, walked into fire at some point

I don't know if she's been burned but rather made into a vessel for fire.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

The business of patterns traced on her skin, reminds me of the visual representation of sorcery, contained in weirwood and ebony doors in the House of Undying:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening. The blood of the dragon must not be afraid. Dany said a quick prayer, begging the Warrior for courage and the Dothraki horse god for strength. She made herself walk forward.

So I'm guessing that the heat traced patterns represent the sorcery involved with making Mel's physical body into something that can contain the fire within and immune from fire in general.

A few more suggestions of 'woven' magic:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

The mold-eaten carpet under her feet had once been gorgeously colored, and whorls of gold could still be seen in the fabric, glinting broken amidst the faded grey and mottled green. What remained served to muffle her footfalls, but that was not all to the good. Dany could hear sounds within the walls, a faint scurrying and scrabbling that made her think of rats. Drogon heard them too. His head moved as he followed the sounds, and when they stopped he gave an angry scream. Other sounds, even more disturbing, came through some of the closed doors. One shook and thumped, as if someone were trying to break through. From another came a dissonant piping that made the dragon lash his tail wildly from side to side. Dany hurried quickly past.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IV

"I have informers sniffing after the Imp everywhere, Your Grace," said Qyburn. He had garbed himself in something very like maester's robes, but white instead of grey, immaculate as the cloaks of the Kingsguard. Whorls of gold decorated his hem, sleeves, and stiff high collar, and a golden sash was tied about his waist. "Oldtown, Gulltown, Dorne, even the Free Cities. Wheresoever he might run, my whisperers will find him."

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IX

When she woke the third time, a shaft of golden sunlight was pouring through the smoke hole of the tent, and her arms were wrapped around a dragon's egg. It was the pale one, its scales the color of butter cream, veined with whorls of gold and bronze, and Dany could feel the heat of it. Beneath her bedsilks, a fine sheen of perspiration covered her bare skin. Dragondew, she thought. Her fingers trailed lightly across the surface of the shell, tracing the wisps of gold, and deep in the stone she felt something twist and stretch in response. It did not frighten her. All her fear was gone, burned away.

 

Edited by LynnS

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I'm probably mixing in things from the tv show, but the vibe I get from Melisandre is that despite she claims to be a servant of Rho'llor she is more like a prisoner or slave to him. Not sure if she ever takes off the ruby in the books, I guess not? Because IMHO it would be more consistent that she knows she will die when she takes it off, i.e. the ruby prolongs her life beyond the natural life span. She's on a mission and knows she is only allowed to die when it is accomplished. That makes her ruthless like a guided missile.

She's a mix of O. from the History of O. (book version) and Darth Vader. 

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8 hours ago, LynnS said:

 

The business of patterns traced on her skin, reminds me of the visual representation of sorcery, contained in weirwood and ebony doors in the House of Undying:

So I'm guessing that the heat traced patterns represent the sorcery involved with making Mel's physical body into something that can contain the fire within and immune from fire in general.

 

Tyrion sees the same thing with Moqorro

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2 hours ago, alienarea said:

I'm probably mixing in things from the tv show, but the vibe I get from Melisandre is that despite she claims to be a servant of Rho'llor she is more like a prisoner or slave to him. Not sure if she ever takes off the ruby in the books, I guess not? Because IMHO it would be more consistent that she knows she will die when she takes it off, i.e. the ruby prolongs her life beyond the natural life span. She's on a mission and knows she is only allowed to die when it is accomplished. That makes her ruthless like a guided missile.

She's a mix of O. from the History of O. (book version) and Darth Vader. 

No, she never takes it off and I think it's embedded in her throat rather than hung on a chain or choker.

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2 hours ago, LynnS said:

No, she never takes it off and I think it's embedded in her throat rather than hung on a chain or choker.

Thank you, that makes sense.

Stream of thought: she was a slave named Melody (and each song needs a melody) turned into a servant of Rho'llor named Melisandre. It's better than being a slave, but after too many years she just wants to accomplish her mission and be allowed to die.

And maybe her going rogue set events in motion that are needed but would not have happened 'playing by the book'. Chaos is a ladder for her as well.

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On 8/9/2019 at 8:44 AM, LynnS said:

I came across this passage and now I have to read the Dunk and Egg novellas again to find out about Aemon's brothers and their dreams:

 

Daeron is the brother that had prophetic dreams. He was the eldest  of Maekar's children and was the one that shaved Aegon's head and called him Egg. He was often drunk - probably due to his disturbing dreams. 

On 8/9/2019 at 1:44 PM, St Daga said:

Interesting, I have never heard of this song before. I do think that sapphires could be serving as an opposition to rubies and fire in the story. Sapphires associated with ice. Sapphires like Symeon Star-eyes eyes, blue like the eyes of the Other's and wights, blue like the stones that I think were in Waymar Royce's sword. Brienne and the sapphire isle is for the blue of it's waters, yet Brienne has magnificent blue eyes. There are a lot of interesting sapphire mentions in the story.

Hmm! The "ham" exchange is from the show, but beyond being very funny, perhaps there is more to the ham/pork/boar connection that it seems. GRRM was still heavily involved in the show at that time. I think Melisandre is capable of a lot of things, and perhaps she was at work in the story long before we meet her. Ned's downfall is tied to Robert's. so if Mel and Stannis are responsible for what happened to Robert, and therefore Ned, I wonder how Jon might react if he knew? He has given Stannis good advice to help Stannis win the war against the Lannister's, but perhaps Mel is one of the enemies around Jon, which is something she warn him about early in Dance, I think

I believe Sam is a parallel of Ned Stark, so it's funny that his nickname is Ser Piggy while Ned's best friend Robert was killed by a boar. The observation you made about the boar being killed by a spear to the eye being a connection to Bloodraven rings true for me, but I don't think Bloodraven skinchanged that animal - rather these events took place because Bloodraven reset the wheel of time during the Harrenhal Tourney and history was manipulated so that it would happen to different people. The "boar" or "pig" is some type of parallel that needs to be investigated to see what the connection is to the past prior to Robert. I will also point out that I believe Lyanna was also "gored by a boar" so to speak. Ser Sumner Crakehall's sigil is a boar and I suspect he's the man that actually inflicted the sword wound to Lyanna's belly that killed her. The tale about Wenda the White Fawn is actually about Lyanna, and that is why Emmet Frey took a mace to the head - so that he'd forget the true events.

On 8/9/2019 at 2:04 PM, St Daga said:

I have always wondered if Mel had been burned, walked into fire at some point. Those R'hller priests are rather fanatical. She and Mocorro seem almost unhuman. Anyway, fire is both life and death, depending on how it's used. Jon is told this in Clash, "Fire is life up here," said Qhorin Halfhand, "but it can be death as well." If Mel was almost killed by her magic when she had Rattleshirt burned, then perhaps this should be considered a warning to Daenerys that she might not survive another such fire as the pyre that hatched the dragons?

 

I like this idea, a lot! I have always found the red dragon on the Targaryen sigil to be odd. It seems to be that Aegon should have picked a black dragon, to represent Balerion, being his oldest, strongest dragon, and one that came from Valyria. But he chooses a red dragon. Why? I have wondered if the Targaryen's very first family dragon was red and it lived on in family lore, and Aegon was nodding to it when he chose his Westerosi sigil. I have also wondered if dreams lead the Targaryen's to quest for a red dragon? I think there are a couple red dragons that are noted of the Targaryen dragons, Caraxes the Blood Wyrm and Meleys, the Red Queen.  But perhaps it ties to this idea you have of red god/red temple and a dragon that is held or bound. Could that dragon be red? Could this be linked to Dany's search for a stone house with a red door?

Also, if there is a dragon held or trapped in a temple in Volantis, could that give a little credence to the theories that think there is a dragon trapped under Winterfell. There is the tower with gargoyles, which seems an unusual thing to be found in Winterfell. There is the hot pools that "smoke" instead of steam, the heat that runs through the walls of the castle like blood. Of course, Winterfell also has the odd "icy breath" in the crypts, and the cold black pool that seems almost to counter the idea of a fire dragon. But perhaps that is all to hold something in check, to hold a balance? I'm just spitballing crazy thoughts, now...

 

 

Drogon's egg was black and red swirls, so even though he's described as being a black dragon, if i remember correctly his scales have swirls of red in the black.

I theorize that the hot springs of Winterfell are actually the smoking remains of a comet. I read something yesterday that seems to hint at this:

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Month/2019/08/?fbclid=IwAR2r1HDg25mqWiPyNCMOaTCpJNZycwfLye_m0Ez8BWl3T4ZULQwpMpLZ2BE

Quote

I just saw George speak at an event in London, and at the very end the interviewer asked him what sword he would have, if he could have any. His response was that he would have Dawn, because it was made from a falling star and "who knows what magical properties a falling star has."

GRRM's words about a falling star having magical properties makes me think this could include remaining steaming hot for thousands of years.

The vision Dany had about the smoking tower, stone beast, and shadow flame could be the same shadow dragon that Bran/Summer saw rising up from the ruins of Winterfell. 

 

On 8/10/2019 at 10:00 AM, alienarea said:

Thank you, that makes sense.

Stream of thought: she was a slave named Melody (and each song needs a melody) turned into a servant of Rho'llor named Melisandre. It's better than being a slave, but after too many years she just wants to accomplish her mission and be allowed to die.

And maybe her going rogue set events in motion that are needed but would not have happened 'playing by the book'. Chaos is a ladder for her as well.

Melony not melody.

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39 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I just saw George speak at an event in London, and at the very end the interviewer asked him what sword he would have, if he could have any. His response was that he would have Dawn, because it was made from a falling star and "who knows what magical properties a falling star has."

Assuming this isn't a case of multiple fans misinterpreting or misquoting GRRM, it appears to me to confirm that Dawn was in fact forged from the metal of a meteor. 

So that story isn't just a fuzzy myth, but a historical reality... and we also know conclusively that Dawn is not Valyrian steel.

This has always been my working assumption anyway, based on various factors -- for instance, it neatly explains Starfall's name and the Dayne sigil.  Good to see some confirmation.

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