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Heresy 225 and the Snowflakes of Doom

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2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Daeron is the brother that had prophetic dreams. He was the eldest  of Maekar's children and was the one that shaved Aegon's head and called him Egg. He was often drunk - probably due to his disturbing dreams. 

Yes, I reread the Dunk and Egg tales yesterday.  His dreams were about Dunk, not much else is said regarding the prophecy except that Aerys read it and that stone dragons referred to stone dragon eggs.  Some interesting stuff about Bloodraven, the sorcerer.  Rumors that he could change his face etc.  

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

Assuming this isn't a case of multiple fans misinterpreting or misquoting GRRM, it appears to me to confirm that Dawn was in fact forged from the metal of a meteor. 

So that story isn't just a fuzzy myth, but a historical reality... and we also know conclusively that Dawn is not Valyrian steel.

This has always been my working assumption anyway, based on various factors -- for instance, it neatly explains Starfall's name and the Dayne sigil.  Good to see some confirmation.

It would still require a smith to forge it which makes it difficult to believe that the cotf had anything to do with it.

I'm guessing it has these magicalal properties:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

"He would know." Aemon Targaryen had seen nine kings upon the Iron Throne. He had been a king's son, a king's brother, a king's uncle. "I looked at that book Maester Aemon left me. The Jade Compendium. The pages that told of Azor Ahai. Lightbringer was his sword. Tempered with his wife's blood if Votar can be believed. Thereafter Lightbringer was never cold to the touch, but warm as Nissa Nissa had been warm. In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."

 The wife and the beast may be one in the same:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

 

Edited by LynnS

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4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Melony not melody.

You're right, but close enough. Blame it on the real Heisenberg :P

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40 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It would still require a smith to forge it which makes it difficult to believe that the cotf had anything to do with it.

I'm guessing it has these magicalal properties:

 The wife and the beast may be one in the same:

 

And the sword.The word "temper" stands out to me.

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

It would still require a smith to forge it which makes it difficult to believe that the cotf had anything to do with it.

Yep.  I also see no sign they ever had a thing to do with swords of any sort.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm guessing it has these magical properties

Meaning you think Dawn is the original Lightbringer... odds look good, don't they?  Its name and the name of its bearer have always seemed suggestive.  And Ned's dream features his unconscious mind perceiving it as "alive with light."

If so, this also probably means that the historical events that are remembered in the Azor Ahai myth happened in Westeros.  

Which begs the question of why now, thousands of years later, the Red Faith, which is obsessed with AAR, doesn't seem very well connected to Westeros at all (and neither does the name Azor Ahai).

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21 minutes ago, JNR said:

Yep.  I also see no sign they ever had a thing to do with swords of any sort.

Meaning you think Dawn is the original Lightbringer... odds look good, don't they?  Its name and the name of its bearer have always seemed suggestive.  And Ned's dream features his unconscious mind perceiving it as "alive with light."

If so, this also probably means that the historical events that are remembered in the Azor Ahai myth happened in Westeros.  

Which begs the question of why now, thousands of years later, the Red Faith, which is obsessed with AAR, doesn't seem very well connected to Westeros at all (and neither does the name Azor Ahai).

Or they happened in the heavens where everyone one can see,interpret and build myths upon.Like in the real world.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, LynnS said:

It would still require a smith to forge it which makes it difficult to believe that the cotf had anything to do with it.

Alternately, the blade could have been a joint effort--human metalworking and CotF spells, assuming that the Last Hero/dragonsteel and the first SotM/Dawn are the same, as the LH seeking the aide of the CotF becomes less relevant if they're different figures, wielding different blades.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

 The wife and the beast may be one in the same:

I like your thinking here, and those quotes from Maester Aemon bring me to mind of something I've wondered in the past about both Dawn and Valyrian steel: is there some missing X-Factor necessary to bring them up to their full potential? As it stands, none of the magical swords appear to be true firebrands.

One possible scenario is that these weapons are meant to be ideally wielded by a fire wight that can set the blades ablaze with their own blood, ala Beric. However, jumping off from your Dany quote, it may be that a sacrifice will be necessary to create a true Lightbringer 2.0. If that were the case, Dany or Mel seem like possible prospects, though I have a crackpot theory that Ice might be reforged and quenched in Stoneheart's heart to absorb her animating fire.

Edit: Also, we haven't seen Dawn in the present era, so I wonder whether the blade is behaving differently now that magic is strengthening. 

Edited by Matthew.

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If an old person without teeth and a bit of an accent says Arthur Dayne, another old person with a bit of a hearing problem might understand Azor Ahai.

:)

Maybe Arthur killed Lyanna with Dawn and already forged Lightbringer?

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, LynnS said:
Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Finally the stair opened. To her right, a set of wide wooden doors had been thrown open. They were fashioned of ebony and weirwood, the black and white grains swirling and twisting in strange interwoven patterns. They were very beautiful, yet somehow frightening. The blood of the dragon must not be afraid. Dany said a quick prayer, begging the Warrior for courage and the Dothraki horse god for strength. She made herself walk forward.

So I'm guessing that the heat traced patterns represent the sorcery involved with making Mel's physical body into something that can contain the fire within and immune from fire in general.

A few more suggestions of 'woven' magic:

This, and the other examples you shared remind me of this:

Quote

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took. AGOT-Prologue

I know this is an example of ice "magic" as opposed to fire "magic" but they seem similar to me, and are plays of light imagery, rather than heat.

Of the quotes you posted, I find it interesting that one is in relation to Qyburn and one to the House of the Undying. 

ETA: I will say these patterns were light seems to be moving or subtly changing the appearance remind me of Dawn being "alive with light", and also the wall,  which is at times described the same way. Perhaps these are all examples of magic being alive or encased within an object? This also relates to the sword of the Other who faces Waymar Royce, the Hand's Tower burning, Stannis' Lightbringer, etc. 

Edited by St Daga
ETA

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8 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The vision Dany had about the smoking tower, stone beast, and shadow flame could be the same shadow dragon that Bran/Summer saw rising up from the ruins of Winterfell. 

I find those images remind me of Ned's "tower long fallen":

Quote

 

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.
 
"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.  AGOT-Eddard X

 

Dany and Summer/Bran both see towers, smoking, and I think the imagery around the toj leads to a tower that is also smoking. Smoke in the air can greyish-blue in color and make the sun appear blood red, so a smokey sky (sunrise/sunset) could appear blood streaked. A tower on fire would eventually collapse, at least somewhat. I admit that a "beast" of some sort is missing in Eddard's dream, but I think perhaps these are all different views of the same incident. 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, St Daga said:

This, and the other examples you shared remind me of this:

I know this is an example of ice "magic" as opposed to fire "magic" but they seem similar to me, and are plays of light imagery, rather than heat.

Of the quotes you posted, I find it interesting that one is in relation to Qyburn and one to the House of the Undying. 

ETA: I will say these patterns were light seems to be moving or subtly changing the appearance remind me of Dawn being "alive with light", and also the wall,  which is at times described the same way. Perhaps these are all examples of magic being alive or encased within an object? This also relates to the sword of the Other who faces Waymar Royce, the Hand's Tower burning, Stannis' Lightbringer, etc. 

OH! Friggin' awesome!

Yes, I wonder if Qyburn is from Qaarth.  It seems he can pull off something of a glamour himself.  He creates a 'seeming' with Jaime, an inoffensive fellow with brown eyes.  Or it may be that his eyes are brown but Cersei sees bold blue eyes, that remind her of someone.  For her he is the 'grandfatherly' type.  His robes are interesting in comparison to Moqorro's robes.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

It was dusk and the red priest had lit his nightfire in the great iron brazier amidships as the crew gathered round to pray. Moqorro's voice was a bass drum that seemed to boom from somewhere deep within his massive torso. "We thank you for your sun that keeps us warm," he prayed. "We thank you for your stars that watch over us as we sail this cold black sea." A huge man, taller than Ser Jorah and wide enough to make two of him, the priest wore scarlet robes embroidered at sleeve and hem and collar with orange satin flames. His skin was black as pitch, his hair as white as snow; the flames tattooed across his cheeks and brow yellow and orange. His iron staff was as tall as he was and crowned with a dragon's head; when he stamped its butt upon the deck, the dragon's maw spat crackling green flame.

  So Qyburn's robes are priestly robes compared with Moqorro's robes.

Edited by LynnS

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Posted (edited)
On 8/10/2019 at 5:22 AM, alienarea said:

I'm probably mixing in things from the tv show, but the vibe I get from Melisandre is that despite she claims to be a servant of Rho'llor she is more like a prisoner or slave to him. Not sure if she ever takes off the ruby in the books, I guess not? Because IMHO it would be more consistent that she knows she will die when she takes it off, i.e. the ruby prolongs her life beyond the natural life span. She's on a mission and knows she is only allowed to die when it is accomplished. That makes her ruthless like a guided missile.

She's a mix of O. from the History of O. (book version) and Darth Vader. 

I agree that she is a red temple slave. 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion VIII

"Lord of Light, bless your slave Moqorro, and light his way in the dark places of the world," the red priest boomed. "And defend your righteous slave Benerro. Grant him courage. Grant him wisdom. Fill his heart with fire."

I also think that if she loses the ruby, she's done for.

Edited by LynnS

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8 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Alternately, the blade could have been a joint effort--human metalworking and CotF spells, assuming that the Last Hero/dragonsteel and the first SotM/Dawn are the same, as the LH seeking the aide of the CotF becomes less relevant if they're different figures, wielding different blades.

That would make sense also.  If we consider that the last hero is one of the First Men, only familiar with working iron; then forging metal from a meteorite would be trial and error.  And so we get Azor Ahai's three attempts to forge the blade.  First tempering in water in the expected manner;  then in the heart of a lion, whatever that means ( potentially breaking the sword on a hunt); and finally the magical solution; in the heart of Nissa Nissa.  That could very well involve the cotf and a dragon.  lol   Which might explain the term 'dragonsteel' as opposed to valyrian steel.

8 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I like your thinking here, and those quotes from Maester Aemon bring me to mind of something I've wondered in the past about both Dawn and Valyrian steel: is there some missing X-Factor necessary to bring them up to their full potential? As it stands, none of the magical swords appear to be true firebrands.

One possible scenario is that these weapons are meant to be ideally wielded by a fire wight that can set the blades ablaze with their own blood, ala Beric. However, jumping off from your Dany quote, it may be that a sacrifice will be necessary to create a true Lightbringer 2.0. If that were the case, Dany or Mel seem like possible prospects, though I have a crackpot theory that Ice might be reforged and quenched in Stoneheart's heart to absorb her animating fire.

Edit: Also, we haven't seen Dawn in the present era, so I wonder whether the blade is behaving differently now that magic is strengthening. 

 I can see this happening as well to quicken the sword.    Mel and Stoneheart can be dispatched with an ordinary sword as we have seen with Beric; so I'm thinking something more extraordinary.   If Nissa Nissa is AA's beloved AND a dragon; then I'm thinking Dany might fill that bill.  Her sacrifice would be significant.

This speaks to my cracked pot that dragon eggs contain the souls of bonded Targaryens and dragon gods are second lifers.  Dragons have no gender apparently, or they can change gender.  That might have something to do with a male dragon becoming the vessel for a female soul.   Which is why I think that AA beloved Nissa Nissa and the beast he slays are one in the same.    

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, JNR said:

Yep.  I also see no sign they ever had a thing to do with swords of any sort.

Meaning you think Dawn is the original Lightbringer... odds look good, don't they?  Its name and the name of its bearer have always seemed suggestive.  And Ned's dream features his unconscious mind perceiving it as "alive with light."

If so, this also probably means that the historical events that are remembered in the Azor Ahai myth happened in Westeros.  

Which begs the question of why now, thousands of years later, the Red Faith, which is obsessed with AAR, doesn't seem very well connected to Westeros at all (and neither does the name Azor Ahai).

Which brings up the question of the PwiP being the same as AA.  Aemon doesn't seem to distinguish between the two when he is speaking to Mel.  All he says later to San is that she misread the signs.   I'd like to know what Azor Ahai translates to in the common tongue.

The Prince of Dorne also seems to be obsessed with the prophecy although that isn't as obvious.

"that the Prince was promised, from the line of...."

Doran Martell tells Arianne that she has been promised.  In fact, he has covered all his bases; Rhaegar and Elia; Viserys and Arianne; Dany and Quentin.  Then Arianne and Aegon.  The contract signed by Willem Derry and the Sealord of Braavos doesn't mention Dany; but when she reads it, she agrees that it is binding to her as well.  I think he believes the PwiP comes from a joining of Targaryen and Dornish blood. 

The Prince has Sarella at the Citadel and is waiting to learn what she finds out. 

Rhaegar clearly thinks that Aegon is the PwiP and so he may also think that the prince comes from a Targ/Dorne match up.  That would leave Lyanna completely out of the picture. 

Edited by LynnS

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On 8/9/2019 at 12:25 PM, alienarea said:

Another hint to this could be Renly's ham reply to "Born amidst smoke and salt" Ham is made of pork, a boar is wild pork, smoke ...

A bit constructed, yes.

Yes of the many places of smoke and salt; you can add the Wall with it's smoke house and stores of salt; the Saltpans with it's smoking bee hives and saltpans;  Dragonstone with it's smoking towers and salt sea; and Dany's salt tears and smoking fire.

Born amidst, or reborn; salt or salt tears.  Not to mention bleeding star and when the stars bleed.  LOL 

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Posted (edited)

A bit off-topic: Who is Urrathon Night-Walker?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys V

Xaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between the windowless houses on Warlock's Way, and all the rats in the city are chewing off their tails. The wife of Mathos Mallarawan, who once mocked a warlock's drab moth-eaten robe, has gone mad and will wear no clothes at all. Even fresh-washed silks make her feel as though a thousand insects were crawling on her skin. And Blind Sybassion the Eater of Eyes can see again, or so his slaves do swear. A man must wonder." He sighed. "These are strange times in Qarth. And strange times are bad for trade. It grieves me to say so, yet it might be best if you left Qarth entirely, and sooner rather than later." Xaro stroked her fingers reassuringly. "You need not go alone, though. You have seen dark visions in the Palace of Dust, but Xaro has dreamed brighter dreams. I see you happily abed, with our child at your breast. Sail with me around the Jade Sea, and we can yet make it so! It is not too late. Give me a son, my sweet song of joy!"

"It is said..."  Urrathon is an iron born name and so far the only glass candles we know about are in Marwyn's house at the Citadel.  In the prologue of FFC, 'it is said' or there is talk that the glass candles are burning in Marwyn's chambers.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

Armen looked down his nose at Lazy Leo. He had the perfect nose for it, long and thin and pointed. "Archmaester Marwyn believes in many curious things," he said, "but he has no more proof of dragons than Mollander. Just more sailors' stories."

"You're wrong," said Leo. "There is a glass candle burning in the Mage's chambers."

A hush fell over the torchlit terrace. Armen sighed and shook his head. Mollander began to laugh. The Sphinx studied Leo with his big black eyes. Roone looked lost.

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

A hush fell over the torchlit terrace. Armen sighed and shook his head. Mollander began to laugh. The Sphinx studied Leo with his big black eyes. Roone looked lost.

Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.

 

Marwyn visits with sailors and makes sacrifice to strange gods.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

Leo yawned. "The sea is wet, the sun is warm, and the menagerie hates the mastiff."

He has a mocking name for everyone, thought Pate, but he could not deny that Marwyn looked more a mastiff than a maester. As if he wants to bite you. The Mage was not like other maesters. People said that he kept company with whores and hedge wizards, talked with hairy Ibbenese and pitch-black Summer Islanders in their own tongues, and sacrificed to queer gods at the little sailors' temples down by the wharves. Men spoke of seeing him down in the undercity, in rat pits and black brothels, consorting with mummers, singers, sellswords, even beggars. Some even whispered that once he had killed a man with his fists.

Marwyn has been sending rare books to the Reader for some time.

Is it possible that Marwyn is iron-born?  Could he be Urrathon Night-Walker?

Edited by LynnS

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15 hours ago, redriver said:

Or they happened in the heavens where everyone one can see,interpret and build myths upon.Like in the real world.

How, in the heavens, would Dawn have been forged? 

That was a historical event that happened on the ground, and almost certainly happened in Westeros.

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

Which brings up the question of the PwiP being the same as AA.  Aemon doesn't seem to distinguish between the two when he is speaking to Mel.

He does IMO, though people love to debate this point.  He asks her about the PtwP, and she answers him about AAR, and he then lets it go... but this doesn't mean he believes they are the same entity.

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

All he says later to San is that she misread the signs. 

He says Stannis' sword is not Lightbringer... but he would say that whether or not he believed AAR and the PtwP were the same, because of the same reason (it emits no heat). It just requires him to know both myths.

He is quite clear in AFFC that he thinks Dany is the PtwP:

Quote

It was a prince that was promised, not a princess.... Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.

But on the subject of Azor Ahai, he does some interesting things before he leaves Castle Black.

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26 minutes ago, JNR said:

But on the subject of Azor Ahai, he does some interesting things before he leaves Castle Black.

He leaves the Jade Compendium for Jon with a specific passage he wants him to read.  What am I missing?

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5 hours ago, LynnS said:

Marwyn has been sending rare books to the Reader for some time.

Is it possible that Marwyn is iron-born?  Could he be Urrathon Night-Walker?

I have never considered that Marwyn could be Ironborn, but the line about him beating a man to death with his fists does remind me of the brawling lifestyle the Ironborn embrace, and it also makes me think of Victarion, who apparently beat his salt-wife to death. Rodrik the Reader certainly is excited about Marwyn's research. Marwyn seems a bit Tyrion like, as well.

My Marwyn tinfoil is that he descends in some way from House Gardener. I know we are told they are extinct, but House Gardener seems too important to be gone completely. House Gardener is descended from Garth the Gardener, the eldest son of Garth Greenhand, and he is said to have worn a crown of vines and leaves. House Gardener's sigil was a large green hand and their imagery seems very foliage based. This imagery reminds me of the "green man" of pagan or nature bases religions. The Green Man image is usually seen as a face or mask with foliage often attempting to disguise the features, such as having a man's face looking out of dense foliage. Sometimes with leaves for hair and beard, sometimes the leaves will be shown growing out of nose, mouth and ears. Mostly, the Green Man is seen as benevolent but there are some interpretations that he was also seen as a force of evil and is portrayed more as devil than god, complete with horned imagery. There are some arguments that the foliage imagery in the Green Man's mouth might indicate that he is swallowing or devouring nature, rather than creating it. 

This is our description of Marwyn:

Quote

Marwyn wore a chain of many metals around his bull's neck. Save for that, he looked more like a dockside thug than a maester. His head was too big for his body, and the way it thrust forward from his shoulders, together with that slab of jaw, made him look as if he were about to tear off someone's head. Though short and squat, he was heavy in the chest and shoulders, with a round, rock-hard ale belly straining at the laces of the leather jerkin he wore in place of robes. Bristly white hair sprouted from his ears and nostrils. His brow beetled, his nose had been broken more than once, and sourleaf had stained his teeth a mottled red. He had the biggest hands that Sam had ever seen. AFFC-Samwell V

The description of Marwyn's facial hair has always reminded me of Green Man imagery. My friend has a green man mask hanging in her yard, and my first read, Marwyn made me think of that mask. Large head, hair sprouting from nose and ears. (my friends mask as foliage from the mouth, too) Then we hear about Marwyn's hands a couple of times, and while they are certainly not green, they are large and brought to our attention. Perhaps a nod to the Gardener sigil? The bull's neck is not necessarily"horned god" imagery, but most bulls have horns and the Horned God is often connected to the Green Man. Also, the red mouth from the sour leaf, perhaps is a nod to sacrifice and blood in the mouth. Perhaps Marwyn's imagery is more Garth Greenhand than his son Garth the Gardener, since Garth Greenhand was known to be both benevolent yet demand sacrifice? 

 

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42 minutes ago, JNR said:

How, in the heavens, would Dawn have been forged? 

That was a historical event that happened on the ground, and almost certainly happened in Westeros.

Of course Dawn was forged on the ground and in Westeros.I was referring to the comet or meteorite that brought the material it was forged with,likely visible all over Essos and likely generating its own local myths.

 

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