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Heresy 225 and the Snowflakes of Doom

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2 hours ago, corbon said:

I, of course, see much less in it than most. 

That's perfectly alright with me.  I think it's necessary for any inquiry to have this perspective as well.    

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Posted (edited)

I don’t think the direwolves initiate the wolf dreams. It’s said that the third eye flutters open when the skinchanger is sleeping. It’s basically an accident. 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think the Targaryens were looking for:

1) A descendent of Aerys and Rhaella, who

2) Would have two siblings, and

3) The three would marry, and 

4) Produce the prince that was promised, which means they’d be able to successfully hatch three dragons that they would bond with and ride.

Err, Rhaegar seemed to think that Aegon was the Prince that was Promised (apparently replacing Rhaegar, who didn't meet all the requirements (though he had earlier thought he would) so while I agree with 1 and see below for 2-3, I think that 4 is wrong. The Targaryens thought that one of the three would be the Prince that was Promised, not a product of the three.
I think that 2-3 was not part of the prophecy, just how the Targaryens expected it to work out, to get three heads that all fitted (I expect they didn't imagine any head could be non-Targaryen) and would be aligned with each other.
I'm not convinced hatching dragons was part of it. The prophecies seem to have originated before the dragons died out anyway.

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23 minutes ago, corbon said:


I'm not convinced hatching dragons was part of it. The prophecies seem to have originated before the dragons died out anyway.

I don’t know.  Aemon at least seems to equate the hatching of dragons as proof that Dany was the prince that was promised:

Quote

“Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke.  The dragons prove it.”

 

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t know.  Aemon at least seems to equate the hatching of dragons as proof that Dany was the prince that was promised:

 

Ok, it was an unthought through line added at the end and clearly wrong. I was trying to express, badly, that I don't think the AA/PtwP stuff mentioned dragons actually disappearing before AA brings them forth out of stone.

Note that Aemon is referencing the AA prophecy there.

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It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.

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Haldon nodded. "Benerro has sent forth the word from Volantis. Her coming is the fulfillment of an ancient prophecy. From smoke and salt was she born to make the world anew. She is Azor Ahai returned … and her triumph over darkness will bring a summer that will never end … death itself will bend its knee, and all those who die fighting in her cause shall be reborn …"

It seems to me the AA prophecy suggests that one will be born amidst smoke and salt, wake dragons and will triumph over darkness to make the world anew.

It seems to me the Targaryens (based on Aemon's conflation here) believed that AA would come from their line as tPtwP, to rid the world of darkness, and yes, wake dragons from stone.

I stand by the point that the Targaryens seem to believe that tPtwP is one of the three heads, not a product of the three heads.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, corbon said:

Ok, it was an unthought through line added at the end and clearly wrong. I was trying to express, badly, that I don't think the AA/PtwP stuff mentioned dragons actually disappearing before AA brings them forth out of stone.

Note that Aemon is referencing the AA prophecy there.

It seems to me the AA prophecy suggests that one will be born amidst smoke and salt, wake dragons and will triumph over darkness to make the world anew.

It seems to me the Targaryens (based on Aemon's conflation here) believed that AA would come from their line as tPtwP, to rid the world of darkness, and yes, wake dragons from stone.

I stand by the point that the Targaryens seem to believe that tPtwP is one of the three heads, not a product of the three heads.

 

 

I:agree:

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Posted (edited)
On 8/15/2019 at 2:20 PM, Feather Crystal said:

1) Rhaegar thought his children could become the three heads if he had one more child, but he never even had living dragons!

Ok, I'll bite. And its friday so I'm probably going to drop out of the conversation until its moved too far to come back to soon, sorry. 

I don't see this as a relevant point. TPtwP was going to wake the dragons from stone, so Rhaegar doesn't need them for his children to become the three heads.

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2) The Targaryens were looking for three siblings, and since Rhaella suffered through several miscarriages and stillborns after Viserys, it may have looked like she was never going to produce a third that would live. It’s probably why Rhaegar and Aemon thought that the prophecy must have applied to his children.

I don;t think the Targaryens were looking for three siblings as a matter of requirement, more as a matter of fact. How else would there be three heads of the dragon? The other dragon blood lines are pretty much died out, and the Targaryens themselves down to a single line (dwindling, much like their dragons did), so how else are they going to get three heads?

I think they (Rhaegar) would have accepted a Dany/Aegon/Rhaenys set of heads, but at the time Dany didn't exist and didn't seem likely to. Rhaegar expected to have to produce the third head himself because there was no other option, not because all three heads have to be siblings.
At least thats the way I see it. There is no indication anywhere that the prophecies mention siblings. But with Aegon the Conqueror's precedent and no other options, no wonder they thought of siblings as the first option.

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3) Aegon was married to his sisters. Daenerys doesn’t have living brothers to marry. Even if Jon turns out to be Rhaegar’s son, he’s not her brother - he’d be her nephew, and if he’s to be her husband, who is the other one?

Well, obviously its not siblings is it. Indeed, Aemon thought that he could have been one of Daenerys' 3 heads, which kinda proves that they were NOT explicitly looking for siblings.

Hmmm. That also indicates that the three heads need not be close family. So what does tie them together? I guess the Targaryens think Targaryen blood as a default, but it does seem to be that its heading towards dragon riders again.

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4) If Jon is Rhaegar’s son, he’s missing two siblings too! Rhaenys and Aegon are dead!

Siblings aren't relevant, just the mostly likely way forward in Rhaegar's time.

 

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure, but wasn't it you who said that Dany had intuitive knowledge? 

Haha, doesn't sound like me at all, but ironically its pretty much what I think.

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Dany hatches the dragon eggs without knowing what she is actually doing.  How does she come by that knowledge, especially when everyone else failed.

Good question. I don't think she did it with knowledge at all. I think she operated by instinct, the source being same mystiscm that Targaryen dragon dreams and prophecy always have.
Whether there are direct links with souls or similar like others post, or its just the sorcerous blood link... well, I go for the later of course. 

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I don't think Dany's dreams are ordinary dreams.  GRRM has said that Dany had (or was given) temporary immunity from fire, perhaps her knowledge comes from the same source.

Blood sourcery (pun intended), from up to 5000 years ago when the Valyrian sorcerers first bonded with Dragons.
Same source as Daenys, Daeron, Daemon II Blackfyre etc.

Edited by corbon
Forgot the NOT again! and added a new thought

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On 8/14/2019 at 10:20 PM, Feather Crystal said:

When I don’t have my own theory on a particular point or don’t see any glaring reason to disagree with a theory - especially if I don’t know of any text that would clearly discredit someone’s idea, I don’t call somebody out simply to be disagreeable, which is how your comments read to me.

My understanding of what LynnS said was that she has doubts that the three heads have to be related dragon riders and she brought up some good points.

1) Rhaegar thought his children could become the three heads if he had one more child, but he never even had living dragons!

This is a great point.   Clearly Rheagar expects 3 of his children to be 3 heads of the dragon, but has no cause to believe there will be a dragon to ride, let alone 3 dragons.   This is almost proof the heads of the dragon refer to something other than dragon riders.

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41 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

This is a great point.   Clearly Rheagar expects 3 of his children to be 3 heads of the dragon, but has no cause to believe there will be a dragon to ride, let alone 3 dragons.   This is almost proof the heads of the dragon refer to something other than dragon riders.

He does have cause. TPtwP (one of the three) is supposed to wake dragons out of stone. Once he realises thats not him, its not his problem any more.

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On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. ..."No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess.... later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. .... Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

Quote

 It is written in prophecy as well. When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone. 

Sorry, no indication at all here that the three heads are not necessarily dragon riders.

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

I don't see this as a relevant point. TPtwP was going to wake the dragons from stone, so Rhaegar doesn't need them for his children to become the three heads.

Whether it’s waking dragons from stone or hatching eggs - a quick aside, the eggs themselves are the stones - in any case the end result is the same. The Targaryen’s desperately wanted to figure out how to get living dragons again. 

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Just now, Feather Crystal said:

Whether it’s waking dragons from stone or hatching eggs - a quick aside, the eggs themselves are the stones -

Well, we know they are now, I don;t think the Targaryens necessarily knew that then.
I wonder if the fashioning of Dragonstone had anything to do with the AA/PtwP prophecy? Stone dragons and all...

Just now, Feather Crystal said:

in any case the end result is the same. The Targaryen’s desperately wanted to figure out how to get living dragons again. 

Well, politically of course. Dragons = power.

But prophetically? Thats tPtwP's job.

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Just before I start Heresy 226 I think that its worth pointing out that there are at least two aspects to this hero business. The discussion above is concentrating on the Targaryen aspect but the Azor Ahai nonsense comes from out east and is unconnected with dragons, except insofar as Azor Ahai slew a monster which can plausibly be identified as a dragon

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8 hours ago, corbon said:

Well, we know they are now, I don;t think the Targaryens necessarily knew that then.
I wonder if the fashioning of Dragonstone had anything to do with the AA/PtwP prophecy? Stone dragons and all...

Well, politically of course. Dragons = power.

But prophetically? Thats tPtwP's job.

That's the whole point of the prophecy. The Targaryens wanted to know if and when they'd be able to hatch live dragons again and the woods witch told them that the person that would be able to do that would be an offspring of Aerys and Rhaella. This person is the prince/princess that was promised. 

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Just before I start Heresy 226 I think that its worth pointing out that there are at least two aspects to this hero business. The discussion above is concentrating on the Targaryen aspect but the Azor Ahai nonsense comes from out east and is unconnected with dragons, except insofar as Azor Ahai slew a monster which can plausibly be identified as a dragon

I agree. Maester Aemon only threw his two cents in, because he was familiar with that prophecy.

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7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The discussion above is concentrating on the Targaryen aspect but the Azor Ahai nonsense comes from out east and is unconnected with dragons, except insofar as Azor Ahai slew a monster which can plausibly be identified as a dragon

Yes, at a basic level these prophecies don't seem to be the same. 

AA is fundamentally about Lightbringer: its creation and its use. 

And the Targs have long been interested in the PtwP, to the point of forcing a marriage between Rhaella and Aerys... but AA never comes up at any time in their history, as far back as you look.

Aemon does not conflate the two prophecies.  He fails to correct Melisandre's conflation, just as he also failed to correct her, at the same time, about her false Lightbringer.   He died believing Dany was the PtwP but he never explicitly identified an AA candidate at all (though getting Jon to read about AA -- his last message to the Watch's Lord Commander -- was certainly interesting).

But even if Aemon thought the prophecies were the same, it would mean very little, because he's changed his mind on these topics before (was Rhaegar the PtwP, or Dany?). 

And most importantly, we haven't read the source material ourselves, in either case, and simply don't know what it says.

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5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

That's the whole point of the prophecy. The Targaryens wanted to know if and when they'd be able to hatch live dragons again and the woods witch told them that the person that would be able to do that would be an offspring of Aerys and Rhaella. This person is the prince/princess that was promised. 

If the idea of the Prince that was Promised has been around Targaryen lore for a thousand years, then it probably isn't about hatching dragons again. I would think that a thousand years ago, the Targaryen's had dragons. We know they had them 400+ years ago when they came to Dragonstone. Maester Aemon does tie the Prince that was Promised to the war for the Dawn.

 

14 hours ago, corbon said:

I wonder if the fashioning of Dragonstone had anything to do with the AA/PtwP prophecy? Stone dragons and all...

Well, it would be nice if we know how old Dragonstone castle was. If it's around a thousand years, then maybe it's related. But I am not sure it's related to Azor Ahai. The Prince that was Promised seems to be a Targaryen prophecy, but perhaps because of the idea of stone dragons built into Dragonstone, this was why they decided to inhabit that specific castle? I am betting the castle was there long before the Targaryen's came to Westeros.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, St Daga said:

If the idea of the Prince that was Promised has been around Targaryen lore for a thousand years, then it probably isn't about hatching dragons again. I would think that a thousand years ago, the Targaryen's had dragons. We know they had them 400+ years ago when they came to Dragonstone. Maester Aemon does tie the Prince that was Promised to the war for the Dawn.

It is not clear if Aemon's words were intended to connect the prince that was promised with the coming War for the Dawn. It could have been a knee-jerk reaction to hearing that an icy horde was threatening to invade Westeros. A dragon would be a welcome weapon. The only people that conflate the prince that was promised with an old prophecy are Melisandre, Davos, and Samwell, and they are mixing him up with Azor Ahai - and again, it's in response to the expected threat growing north of the Wall. Azor Ahai killed a great beast with a flaming sword, and a flaming sword would also make a dandy weapon against an icy foe.

Well, hold your horses:

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On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger.

 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, JNR said:

 

Aemon does not conflate the two prophecies.  He fails to correct Melisandre's conflation, just as he also failed to correct her, at the same time, about her false Lightbringer.   He died believing Dany was the PtwP but he never explicitly identified an AA candidate at all (though getting Jon to read about AA -- his last message to the Watch's Lord Commander -- was certainly interesting).

 

It might be interesting if we knew what it said but I got the very clear impression when reading that passage that Aemon was warning Jon that she was talking mince and that what the Jade Companion revealed was a very different version of the story - just as Saladhor San warned Davos

Edited by Black Crow

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Posted (edited)

Aemon certainly conflates the two prophecies, as does Rhaegar:

Quote

“No one ever looked for a girl,” he said.  “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess.  Rhaegar, I thought ... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died.  He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet.”

Quote

Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke.  The dragons prove it.”

Quote

Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire.  “In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world.  In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword.  And that sword shall be Lighbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall fall before him.”

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“It is written in prophecy as well.  When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to take dragons out of stone.”

Now unless both prophecies deal with a savior who comes amidst bleeding stars and born amidst smoke and salt, then Aemon is conflating the prophecies.  And if both prophecies just happened to contain the same signs of bleeding stars and smoke and salt, then the two prophecies should be conflated.

Edited by Frey family reunion

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Now unless both prophecies deal with a savior who comes amidst bleeding stars and born amidst smoke and salt, then Aemon is conflating the prophecies.

As to saviors, you're right that that's Mel's take on AAR, whom she also sees as PtwP: the champion of her god. 

But Aemon makes no such remarks about the PtwP; those are just reader inferences.

As to the bleeding stars/salt and smoke, it's true both prophecies seem to involve that language (though we have yet to read the text of either one).

But this still means very little, because those are very easy signs to fulfill doubly if the two people were born at similar times.  For example:

Quote

later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived

How many people were conceived in Westeros before this comet vanished?  Plenty. 

How many had something to do with salt and smoke?  Again, plenty, if such things as tears, sea air, burning buildings, and volcanoes all count, and it seems they do.

Interesting note: this would seem to rule out Jon as PtwP in Rhaegar's opinion. Because I've never read there was still a comet when Jon would have been conceived... much later than Aegon.

I also don't recall Dany being born under a bleeding star; she was supposedly born in a storm.  But all the same, Aemon's sure she's the PtwP.  Curious...

I think in the end we will find that Mel is mistaken.  But I'd definitely like to know Aemon's reason to ask Jon -- the guy who commands the Wall against wights and Popsicles -- to read all about AA -- the monster slayer, who may have wielded the sword we know as Dawn.

Edited by JNR

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