Heresy 225 and the Snowflakes of Doom

[Melifeather]

Ygritte brought the Bastard O Winterfell story to our attention. It’s probably about the Nights King. She told Jon that they have a shared ancestor, but she didn’t fully explain how or why. It would make a lot if sense if the Nights King was also a Stark bastard like Jon, and that he was condemned to live with the wildlings. Then one of his descendants was Bael, and later his son killed him unaware that his father was a wildling with Stark blood.

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Jon Snow agreed to Quorin’s plan to pretend to live with the wildlings, which is the opposite of being dismissed from the service of the Watch. He also did this before becoming the Lord Commander, and well before being stabbed. His transformation into the Nights King before returning to Winterfell would be a reversal of the route taken by the man who became the 13th Lord Commander.

Quorin seems to know a lot.  It's after Jon tells him about his wolf-dream that Quorin says that the trees have eyes again.

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VIII

There was no question of riding double. Stonesnake offered to lay in wait for the pursuit and surprise them when they came. Perhaps he could take a few of them with him down to hell. Qhorin refused. "If any man in the Night's Watch can make it through the Frostfangs alone and afoot, it is you, brother. You can go over mountains that a horse must go around. Make for the Fist. Tell Mormont what Jon saw, and how. Tell him that the old powers are waking, that he faces giants and wargs and worse. Tell him that the trees have eyes again."

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

"Skinchanger?" said Ebben grimly, looking at the Halfhand. Does he mean the eagle? Jon wondered. Or me? Skinchangers and wargs belonged in Old Nan's stories, not in the world he had lived in all his life. Yet here, in this strange bleak wilderness of rock and ice, it was not hard to believe.

"The cold winds are rising. Mormont feared as much. Benjen Stark felt it as well. Dead men walk and the trees have eyes again. Why should we balk at wargs and giants?"

 

 

[Black Crow]

14 hours ago, LynnS said:

I agree.  It's confusing.  If the Wall was built to keep out the Others and the building started after the Others were initially defeated; then when did the building of the Wall begin, if the Night's King was the 13th LC to take up that duty? 

We're back to the old conundrum.  The oldest lists suggest they were written during what?  Were all previous records destroyed and history rewritten?

The business of the list is not as confusing as some people seem to think.

The "oldest" known list shows 674 names. This presumably starts with Lord Commander Zog [or whoever] who was number one and finishes with number 674, which means it was written 324 Lord Commanders ago. 

The trick is then to figure out how old you want the wall to be and then divide that date by 1,000 Lord Commanders to get the average tenure, then multiply by 324 and that will give you the approximate number of years ago when the list was compiled. Sam's remark, so frustratingly cut off, suggests that he was tying that date to a known historical event. 

However, until GRRM reveals all, we're stuffed, because ultimately this is a typical mediaeval king list, like that compiled for the Kingdom of Scotland. The more recent names are real enough but the further back the list stretches the more mythical the names and in the end I really won't be surprised if Jon only turned out to be the 298th Lord Commander. GRRM was certainly at some pains through Rodrik the Reader and Hoster Blackwood to emphasise that the histories are mince.

As to what Sam wanted to tell us. I dare say that we'll find out not through his detective work, but a reveal that he tried to tell Jon that it coincided with...

 

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Quorin seems to know a lot.  It's after Jon tells him about his wolf-dream that Quorin says that the trees have eyes again.

 

Interesting of course that the rangers regard the Children and Wargs as a dangerous threat.

[redriver]

Interesting line about Benjen feeling the cold winds rising.Does that suggest he sensed the Others before he knew about them?

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

As to what Sam wanted to tell us. I dare say that we'll find out not through his detective work, but a reminder that he tried to tell Jon that it coincided with...

LOL!  The Andal invasion of Moat Cailin?

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, redriver said:

Interesting line about Benjen feeling the cold winds rising.Does that suggest he sensed the Others before he knew about them?

I would say so. Gared certainly felt someone was out there, and Coldhands claimed he could sense them too

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

LOL!  The Andal invasion of Moat Cailin?

All things are possible, but I feel that the underlying message is that there's something wrong and that there's a major contradiction in there.

The important point really is that Sam is telling us that we shouldn't believe what we're told about the age of the Wall and the Watch - or any of the other histories of course

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

All things are possible, but I feel that the underlying message is that there's something wrong and that there's a major contradiction in there.

The important point really is that Sam is telling us that we shouldn't believe what we're told about the age of the Wall and the Watch - or any of the other histories of course

I agree that the timeline is mince.  If Sam's short list can be tied to an historical event; I'd have to go with one that is more recent; something that is likely to have been documented in some way.  My guess is that the Andals lost at Moat Cailin and that army was sent to the Wall.  That could explain the list, the addition of the septs, the worship of the seven and conflicts between LC's or members of the Watch.   My guess is that the Wall is still older than 2,000 years, given it's height.  But Sam's short list isn't as old as the Wall.  

[Melifeather]

16 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The "oldest" known list shows 674 names. This presumably starts with Lord Commander Zog [or whoever] who was number one and finishes with number 674, which means it was written 324 Lord Commanders ago. 

The trick is then to figure out how old you want the wall to be and then divide that date by 1,000 Lord Commanders to get the average tenure, then multiply by 324 and that will give you the approximate number of years ago when the list was compiled. Sam's remark, so frustratingly cut off, suggests that he was tying that date to a known historical event. 

The only bone we're thrown is that it's been 8000 years since the Others were defeated, and 8000 divided by 1000 is 8 years per Lord Commander. 324 Lord Commanders multiplied by 8 years equals 2592 years ago which is awfully close to the claimed arrival of the Andals of 3000 years ago.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I agree that the timeline is mince.  If Sam's short list can be tied to an historical event; I'd have to go with one that is more recent; something that is likely to have been documented in some way.  My guess is that the Andals lost at Moat Cailin and that army was sent to the Wall.  That could explain the list, the addition of the septs, the worship of the seven and conflicts between LC's or members of the Watch.   My guess is that the Wall is still older than 2,000 years, given it's height.  But Sam's short list isn't as old as the Wall.  

Or the Wall was simply treated like a penal colony on par with the British sending criminals to America and Australia. Send enough men to the Wall and you can easily change the dynamics. A lot of First Men families married Andals, but I'm sure there were conflicts and the marriages were part of the peace treaties.

[LynnS]

29 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The only bone we're thrown is that it's been 8000 years since the Others were defeated, and 8000 divided by 1000 is 8 years per Lord Commander. 324 Lord Commanders multiplied by 8 years equals 2592 years ago which is awfully close to the claimed arrival of the Andals of 3000 years ago.

Is eight years for each LC a reasonable attrition rate? What do we know about the last time the Night's Watch was at full strength? 

[JNR]

21 hours ago, LynnS said:

If the Wall was built to keep out the Others and the building started after the Others were initially defeated; then when did the building of the Wall begin, if the Night's King was the 13th LC to take up that duty? 

Well, if there have been a thousand LCs, and it's been eight thousand years, the average tenure of an LC is about eight years.

So the 13th LC following the Long Night would have lived around a hundred years after the Long Night (because 13 x 8 = 104). 

A hundred years of Wall-building would presumably only yield a short Wall at the Nightfort and an incomplete Wall elsewhere so there's no apparent logical problem.

21 hours ago, LynnS said:

The oldest lists suggest they were written during what?

674 LCs on the oldest list x 8 years per LC = 5392 years passed since the Long Night occurred, making the oldest list roughly 2700 years old.  Roughly contemporary with Gendel and Gorne.

But we don't really know exactly how long it's been, or how many LCs there have been.

21 hours ago, LynnS said:

Were all previous records destroyed and history rewritten?

Since the First Men left runes on rocks, no... but inaccuracies inevitably creep in.

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Is eight years for each LC a reasonable attrition rate? What do we know about the last time the Night's Watch was at full strength? 

It’s just an average. Of course many could serve longer. I’m sure the dwindling was drawn out over thousands of years. The less major conflicts the less the numbers of defeated foes that refused to kneel. Also over time it became more of a place to send criminals which tended to be commoners. Officers were usually restricted to nobles, even though we’re told anyone can be elected Lord Commander.

[JNR]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

My guess is that the Wall is still older than 2,000 years

Well, there's no need to guess; GRRM has told us flat-out that

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Yes, the Wall was much smaller when first raised. It took hundreds of years to complete and thousands to reach its present height.

So we know, beyond all possible doubt, that it is older than two thousand years old and also that it was not raised instantly by magic.

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

But Sam's short list isn't as old as the Wall.

674 LCs would still require thousands of years.

I think we can infer a few things from that list.  First, Sam obviously doesn't recognize the last name on the list, or any other name close to the last name.  Because if he did, then he would know exactly how old the list was. 

For instance, if the last name were Jack Musgood, Sam would know the list was ~200 years old, because as Jon tells us:

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That was how Raymun Redbeard had done it, Raymun who had been King-Beyond-the-Wall in the days of his grandfather's grandfather. Jack Musgood had been the lord commander in those days.

But Sam evidently recognizes none of the last few names at all.  So he has no way to know when the list was written other than doing the rough math.

This is what we would expect from a truly ancient list.  The names on it would be so old as to be completely unfamiliar to Sam.

[Brad Stark]

Back to my favorite list.

I disagree with bc on this, as I feel the list has 647 numbered names, including Jon Snow, with the earliest being numbered 324 or earlier,  likely with gaps.

The First Men were unlikely to have had a list.  So the first list would have been started by the Andals and may have included First Men oral history, graves, etc.  The Night King may be on the list and numbered 13, even though most or all of the other first 100 are missing. 

When the Andals started keeping records, they kept a list and added to it.  There is no 'oldest list' as bc suggests, there is only 1 physical list.  At some point, the paper deteriorates, and the list is transcribed.   But the new list has all the old names and the old physical list is useless, already deteriorating, and unlikely to survive long.  If the old list was somehow kept, as bc suggests, why would Sam reference or look at it?  All the information is on the new list. 

Alternatively, we could have several lists, with the oldest being 1-674, the next being 675-800, then a newer list only 801-present.  This fits more with what Sam said,  but has the obvious problem the first list obviously didn't exist for a span of 674 Commanders.

 

[Black Crow]

25 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

Back to my favorite list.

I disagree with bc on this, as I feel the list has 647 numbered names, including Jon Snow, with the earliest being numbered 324 or earlier,  likely with gaps.

Ah no. Sam said it was the oldest list that he could find, not the longest one. In fact it will be the shortest. Jon Snow will not feature because if anybody has had time to inscribe his name on a list it will be at the top [or bottom] not of the oldest list but the newest list

Lets keep is simple and say that there were only 100 Lord Commanders, each serving for a year and a day before the next was elected.

The oldest list Sam finds has 64 names on it, starting with number one and finishing with no. 64. This tells him that it was compiled 46 years ago. The next list he finds is longer and has 74 names on it; that is the 64 names from the first list plus the 10 Lord Commanders elected since, and so on it goes.

Taking Sam's observation in context, although he seems about to link the compiling of the oldest surviving list with an unknown historical event, I think the real point he's making is that is as far as history goes - and its not very far and doesn't say muh at all.

As I've said before one of the curiousities is why the Watch don't have a feast day to celebrate their great victory.

[Melifeather]

24 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

As I've said before one of the curiousities is why the Watch don't have a feast day to celebrate their great victory.

I don't know that the Andals won a great victory for the Wall. I just think that there were so many conflicts during the invasion that the Andals quickly outnumbered the First Men.

I do believe there was a battle over Winterfell between brothers and that one of them was a bastard that defeated a younger trueborn sibling.  It should have been a situation very much like Jon Snow and Robb Stark, and a little bit like Ramsay Snow who was legitimized when he was given Winterfell by his father. Ygritte said there were many that did not want to follow this son, because he wasn't like the father. This is why I suspect a Thenn was the trueborn heir and that a Stark bastard took his birthright from him and legitimized himself when Winterfell was taken.

History is being undone in order to correct something that the Children regret interfering in and I suspect they regret using magic to defeat the Others. If the wildlings are the Others, then I think the story of the Last Hero was of a Stark that wanted the Children's help defeating the Thenns so that he could have Winterfell. Once the bastard had Winterfell he sent his Thenn brother and his followers to work building the Wall. Over time the brother became the Lord Commander. I realize 13 Lord Commanders multiplied by an average of 8 years makes it look like he'd be well over a hundred years old, but there's no telling how quickly they went thru LCs during those early years. Plus, who is to say that thirteen years was actually literal? "Thirteen" has long been considered an unlucky number and connected to death and suffering.

 

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Ah no. Sam said it was the oldest list that he could find, not the longest one. In fact it will be the shortest. Jon Snow will not feature because if anybody has had time to inscribe his name on a list it will be at the top [or bottom] not of the oldest list but the newest list

Lets keep is simple and say that there were only 100 Lord Commanders, each serving for a year and a day before the next was elected.

The oldest list Sam finds has 64 names on it, starting with number one and finishing with no. 64. This tells him that it was compiled 46 years ago. The next list he finds is longer and has 74 names on it; that is the 64 names from the first list plus the 10 Lord Commanders elected since, and so on it goes.

Taking Sam's observation in context, although he seems about to link the compiling of the oldest surviving list with an unknown historical event, I think the real point he's making is that is as far as history goes - and its not very far and doesn't say muh at all.

As I've said before one of the curiousities is why the Watch don't have a feast day to celebrate their great victory.

Let's make it slightly more complicated.   We can use your math, but with an approximately correct order of magnitude.  Let's say there are 1000 Lord Commanders and each served 10 years.

Sam's list has 647 names, meaning it was written 3530 years ago.  An implausibly long time for a useless and already degraded piece of paper, which needed to have been written more than twice as far back as people actually had writing. 

[St Daga]

On 7/18/2019 at 3:57 PM, JNR said:

The concept that there is one or more Popsicles in the Stark crypts, held hostage for thousands of years since the Long Night, is an interesting one that I have never read on this or any other site.

It does beg the question whether the Popsicles are immortal, of course.  But since they are plainly magical creatures, not biological ones, they may well be immortal.

I have come across ideas of the Night's Queen held prison in the crypts, or the Night's King. Also an ice dragon, but never an Other, and never as a hostage. Now, I have some tinfoil which is doubted by most everyone (and I am okay with that) that Ned was held as a hostage in the Vale for some time, and called a ward. I came up with this concept while looking into Theon's arc in the story. I don't mean to discuss that theory, but the idea of holding a defeated enemies family member as a hostage is used in this story. Like with Theon! So, if a great army of Other's descended from the north at one time and were finally defeated and pushed back, perhaps an Other, or the child of an Other, could have been kept. Could such a secret be forgotten over so many thousands of years? Sure it could.

And Ned even tells us that he know Theon must be kept watch over, because if it came to war with the Lannister's, Robert and Ned would need the Greyjoy fleet, indicating that Ned believed that because he held Theon, the heir, that Balon would have to supply his ships and service to Robert and Ned's cause. Perhaps this is a hint at the Other' as a hostage and the Stark's having the ability (even if they have long forgotten) to have an army of the Other's at their disposal.

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When the door had closed behind him, Ned turned back to his wife. "Once you are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. They are to raise a hundred bowmen each and fortify Moat Cailin. Two hundred determined archers can hold the Neck against an army. Instruct Lord Manderly that he is to strengthen and repair all his defenses at White Harbor, and see that they are well manned. And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father's fleet." AGOT-Eddard IV

As to the Other's perhaps being immortal or nearly so, I don't see why not. GRRM has compared them to the Sidhe, and the Sidhe were a race that might not have been considered immortal, but they are certainly not mortal, nor did their size or lifespan's always align with human's. So could they be a very long living race? Why not. We already know the CotF have longer lifespans that humans, so perhaps the Other's do as well, much longer. This is also a bit like the elves of Tolkein's world. 

 

On 7/19/2019 at 12:44 AM, Black Crow said:

I've never heard the suggestion either, but I would say that its entirely possible, with the significant caveat that we wouldn't be talking about a demon made of ice and snow, but about a spirit, a ghost if you like, imprisoned there or hiding there without a body.

Perhaps a creature or race that can have a more physical form at times, but also more of a spirit form, like a mist or a fog. When the conditions are optimal, then perhaps their form is more physical. This reminds me a bit of my thoughts on Bran Stoker's Dracula. No, I'm not saying the Other's are vampires, but the idea of a creature that can have a physical form, one both old and young, or as a shapeshifter who can take on the form of animals, such as a dog and also appear as mist and can communicate with telepathy. GRRM does have a love for the horror genre and I could see him borrowing some elements from Stoker for his Other's.

 

On 7/19/2019 at 10:31 AM, Brad Stark said:

I would be less surprised to find evidence the Others served House Stark or the other way around, or even were worshipped as gods.  I'd also be less surprised to find statues of the oldest Starks less than human - monstrous and possibly wolf like.

This is interesting. I do think the Other's tie in some way to the concept of the Stranger, which I know is an Andal concept, not a first man concept, but all religions are based in some type of reality, and this concept of the Other's could be something that the First Men and the Andal's share, even though they don't realize it. The statue of the Stranger on Dragonstone that burned and I think the statue of the Stranger in the Sept of Baelor are noted to be somewhat animalistic in appearance. Hinting at skinchanging, perhaps? And Cat notes the Stranger in the sept in the village near Storm's End that she pray's in has no face (I think it's drawn in charcoal, so how old the drawings are, I have no idea) but eyes that look like star's. A nod to the Other's again?

 

On 7/20/2019 at 8:52 AM, JNR said:

You could also ask: If the Popsicles can shift to an incorporeal form, why didn't Ser Puddles do so, to save himself?  Instead, Ser Puddles actually let his sword get ripped away by Small Paul's bulk:

Perhaps the transition isn't pleasant or painless, but we actually did see a form of a corporeal Other becoming his incorporeal form when Sam used the dragonglass dagger on the Other's. I don't necessarily think that Other that same stabbed actually died, but it was certainly vanquished for a time. 

 

On 7/20/2019 at 10:23 AM, LynnS said:

There could very well be levels of the crypts where the gods sent Starks for the evil they had done.

And 'the gods who made us" might be more literal for the Starks:

I have wondered how many levels there are to the crypts. We hear this about the Red Keep:

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That's no lie, at least. Tyrion waddled along in the eunuch's wake, his heels scraping against the rough stone as they descended. It was very cold within the stairwell, a damp bone-chilling cold that set him to shivering at once. "What part of the dungeons are these?" he asked.

 

"Maegor the Cruel decreed four levels of dungeons for his castle," Varys replied. "On the upper level, there are large cells where common criminals may be confined together. They have narrow windows set high in the walls. The second level has the smaller cells where highborn captives are held. They have no windows, but torches in the halls cast light through the bars. On the third level the cells are smaller and the doors are wood. The black cells, men call them. That was where you were kept, and Eddard Stark before you. But there is a level lower still. Once a man is taken down to the fourth level, he never sees the sun again, nor hears a human voice, nor breathes a breath free of agonizing pain. Maegor had the cells on the fourth level built for torment." They had reached the bottom of the steps. An unlighted door opened before them. "This is the fourth level. Give me your hand, my lord. It is safer to walk in darkness here. There are things you would not wish to see." ASOS-Tyrion XI

 

Could it be that the levels of the crypts mirror this in some way? Perhaps the Stark's have used all but the lowest level for their own burial's, while the lowest (possibly fourth level) is used as a prison for something never meant to escape? This idea of a "breath" in this 4th level might connect to the "cold breath" that Ned notes about the crypts.

 

On 7/20/2019 at 10:23 AM, LynnS said:

Perhaps there is something more magical in the first flowering?  For Stark women at any rate.  

If this is the case (which I find to be a very interesting concept ) then has Sansa doomed herself in some way in her attempt to reject it? She tries to hide the truth and the blood, attempts to burn her sheets and mattress and only makes a mess of things. If she was given something magical and rejected it, then I am even more curious about Lyanna's "flowering" and what it might mean for Arya, who I think will "flower" soon in our story, and will probably not reject her gift of womanhood, in the way that Sansa did. I completely understand why Sansa tried to hide her first bleeding, as she feared marriage to Joffrey, but that does't change the fact that she might have upset something more important with her actions. 

 

On 7/21/2019 at 12:32 AM, alienarea said:

I know a wolf is not a jackal, but since it involves death rites, did we ever discuss an Anubis symbolism related to the Starks?

Over on the Last Hearth I have discussed Ned's Osiris imagery, and also the idea of how falcon's and jackel's are tied to the idea of Osiris's wives and children, and how I think that could hint that wolf/jackel is a tie to being keepers of the underworld. It's scattered over several pages of posts, but if you are interested, I could try to link you to some of them.

 

On 7/21/2019 at 3:34 AM, Black Crow said:

Just another thought on the Nights King. We note Old Nan's saying that he was cast down by his brother, and deduce from that he may not actually have been slain.

 

On 7/21/2019 at 8:26 AM, JNR said:

Might be wise for us to consider the original text:

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The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan's stories, the tale of Night's King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night's Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. "And that was the fault in him," she would add, “for all men must know fear." A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

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"Some say he was a Bolton," Old Nan would always end. "Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down." She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. "He was a Stark. Of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

Quite a few interesting details worth analyzing here, and various logical possibilities. 

I'm borrowing from a previous entry for the quotes, thanks @JNR On my first read, I had thought the Night's King was killed, but @Black Crowmakes a good point about kingslaying. The first men would try to avoid this if at all possible. And that might have included an actual push or shove off of the wall, which I had at one time considered a possible fate of the Night's King. On later reads, the imagery of downfall and falling actually reminded me a bit of the story of the angel Lucifer, and how he was chosen, until he fell, and fell into hell. Or some say he was cast down into hell. There is some interesting imagery for "cast down" in the story, but looking back at his idea of the Night's King and the idea around him and the man who "brought him down" is suddenly seeming perhaps like the Night's king was "brought down" into a prison beneath something. Beneath the wall, or perhaps Winterfell. Perhaps it is the Night's King that was "brought down" into the lowest level of the crypts of Winterfell. If he was a Stark, it would  not exactly be killing him, it would be imprisoning him, especially if he could not die, while also fulfilling a role of placing the man in the hall (or hell) of dead Starks. Perhaps there is some prison deep under the wall, as well? We know there are tunnels, and there is the circular stairway that leads down to the Black Gate. That dark circular stairway might mimic the stairway to the crypts of Winterfell, especially if they were both built by Bran the Builder.

 

Sorry about the longish post. Just trying to catch up on several days of posts.

 

[Melifeather]

42 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Now, I have some tinfoil which is doubted by most everyone (and I am okay with that) that Ned was held as a hostage in the Vale for some time, and called a ward. I came up with this concept while looking into Theon's arc in the story. I don't mean to discuss that theory, but the idea of holding a defeated enemies family member as a hostage is used in this story. Like with Theon!

I had toyed with that idea once upon a time, but I think the reason why Ned was sent to foster with Jon Arryn was to become his squire and learn to be a knight. I believe Lady Barbary's condemnation of Maester Walys for being the one to foster Rickard Stark's "southron ambitions" meant that he wanted to adopt the Andal practice of knighthood and adopt the training for his sons and closest men. I think Brandon was sent to foster with Lord Dustin at Barrowton to learn how to be a knight too, and that Rickard himself became a knight. Of course we don't have confirmation that Ned was ever knighted, but it might be because the Rebellion interfered and it got pushed aside. Squires often stay with their knights until they are knighted themselves and this would explain why Robert and Ned were still living with Jon Arryn when he called his banners.