Blessed Tommen

[sweetsunray]

Rereading Cersei's arc.

One of the important plot events is that Cersei makes a deal with the High Sparrow: the Faith will forgive the crown's debts to them and bless Tommen in exchange for Tommen allowing the Faith to bear arms once again. The Faith militant is come again, but the High Sparrow has yet to have appeared at the Red Keep. When Cersei summons him, at one point it's Septon Raynard (an allusion to Reynaert the Fox) with 6 Warrior's Sons (including Lancel) who show up: regarding the High Sparrow preaching about chastity at the street where the brothels are.

Now my question is the following: has the High Sparrow officially blessed Tommen yet or not? Is it just enough that the High Sparrow agreed to this in private, or does that involve a ritual, and if the latter, when or where has this occurred in the text, because I can't seem to find it. 

 

[rotting sea cow]

Probably did happen.

A lot of formal events happened offscreen. 

- crowing of Joffrey

- crowning of Tommen

- crowning of Stannis

- crowning of Robb

- we don't have accounts of Robert crowning and weeding to Cersei.

Etc.

[Lord Varys]

It could have happened or not. We don't know. I'd not be surprised if it didn't, considering that the sparrows actually despise the incest brat.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Probably did happen.

A lot of formal events happened offscreen. 

- crowing of Joffrey

- crowning of Tommen

- crowning of Stannis

- crowning of Robb

- we don't have accounts of Robert crowning and weeding to Cersei.

Etc.

But where is this blessing supposed to happen? Do we have any example of a new king being blessed by a High Septon (and I don't mean a coronation). Does it have to happen in the red keep or the high sept? I would guess it's the sept right? 

[sweetsunray]

57 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It could have happened or not. We don't know. I'd not be surprised if it didn't, considering that the sparrows actually despise the incest brat.

Exactly! 

We know that Cersei had summoned the High Septon several times. He never came to her summons. Eventually she has to go to the Sept of Baelor, where she makes her deal with the High Sparrow. She goes back pleased to the Red Keep, feeling the smartest ruler ever to exist, and begins to plan a trap and demise for Margaery. That's Cersei VI.

Cersei VII occurs all at night: Marg demanding aid be sent to Oldtown and the Reach after getting the news of Euron's attacks on the Shield Islands. Loras volunteers to take Dragonstone. And just as she sneaks back into bed, Falyse arrives all distraught about the death of her husband, and Cersei hands her to Qyburn. Nothing, nada about Tommen being blessed.

Cersei VIII: Aurane returns with the swift victory of Dragonstone but the misfortune that befell Loras, and she summoned the High Septon, who once again does not show up in person, but it's Septon Raynard with an escort of 6 Warrior's Sons, one being Lancel. It's a short conversation about an entirely different topic than blessing, but if you can read between the lines it's barbed with wire against her. It's a warning. The High Sparrow is letting her know he has Lancel as a devout Warrior Son, and Septon Raynard is not as much a flatterer he used to be (he's pretty much the Reynaert fox here)... ending with "If sinners speak, should the righeous listen." This goes almost completely over her head. 

Our High Sparrow was spinning a trap for Cersei quite early on. And with her already having armed the Faith quite soon, just to be forgiven the debt alone, I wonder whether the High Sparrow has been stalling any official "blessing of King Tommen" and Cersei might just be too stupid to realize a private consent means nothing. If the High Sparrow knew about Cersei's offenses from Lancel for a while, wouldn't he have waited for blessing her son until he's sure Cersei is truly out of the picture? 

 

[HexMachina]

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Exactly! 

We know that Cersei had summoned the High Septon several times. He never came to her summons. Eventually she has to go to the Sept of Baelor, where she makes her deal with the High Sparrow. She goes back pleased to the Red Keep, feeling the smartest ruler ever to exist, and begins to plan a trap and demise for Margaery. That's Cersei VI.

Cersei VII occurs all at night: Marg demanding aid be sent to Oldtown and the Reach after getting the news of Euron's attacks on the Shield Islands. Loras volunteers to take Dragonstone. And just as she sneaks back into bed, Falyse arrives all distraught about the death of her husband, and Cersei hands her to Qyburn. Nothing, nada about Tommen being blessed.

Cersei VIII: Aurane returns with the swift victory of Dragonstone but the misfortune that befell Loras, and she summoned the High Septon, who once again does not show up in person, but it's Septon Raynard with an escort of 6 Warrior's Sons, one being Lancel. It's a short conversation about an entirely different topic than blessing, but if you can read between the lines it's barbed with wire against her. It's a warning. The High Sparrow is letting her know he has Lancel as a devout Warrior Son, and Septon Raynard is not as much a flatterer he used to be (he's pretty much the Reynaert fox here)... ending with "If sinners speak, should the righeous listen." This goes almost completely over her head. 

Our High Sparrow was spinning a trap for Cersei quite early on. And with her already having armed the Faith quite soon, just to be forgiven the debt alone, I wonder whether the High Sparrow has been stalling any official "blessing of King Tommen" and Cersei might just be too stupid to realize a private consent means nothing. If the High Sparrow knew about Cersei's offenses from Lancel for a while, wouldn't he have waited for blessing her son until he's sure Cersei is truly out of the picture? 

 

It isn’t in the HS interest to have Tommen declared a bastard though, as it is Tommen’s decree which gives the Faith the right to bear arms. That right becomes questionable if the king who issued it is declared illegitimate. I guess once the HS has established his power this is less of an issue but even so, worth noting. 

 

[sweetsunray]

Just now, HelenaExMachina said:

It isn’t in the HS interest to have Tommen declared a bastard though, as it is Tommen’s decree which gives the Faith the right to bear arms. That right becomes questionable if the king who issued it is declared illegitimate. I guess once the HS has established his power this is less of an issue but even so, worth noting. 

 

True. I do think he's leaning to Tommen, but it would also be in his interest to hold off on a public blessing until he has control over Tommen. Aside from Tywin's funeral, Cersei hasn't allowed Tommen outside of the Red Keep and keeps him within her influence. And once she makes half of Tommen's court out to be fornicators and then gets herself taken into a cell, that's not exactly the good time for a public blessing of Tommen either. 

So, either the HS made some public statement without Tommen's presence at the square of Baelor, before Cersei VII, or he hasn't done it yet, and waiting until at least Margaery is cleared at her trial. But by then we already have Aegon conquering the Stormlands by Storm, given the HS more reason to tardy a public blessing of Tommen. 

[sweetsunray]

Anyhow, writing it down as a question that George might actually answer during Titancon. 

[Lord Varys]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

But where is this blessing supposed to happen? Do we have any example of a new king being blessed by a High Septon (and I don't mean a coronation). Does it have to happen in the red keep or the high sept? I would guess it's the sept right? 

We have no idea. But we do know that each new High Septon blesses the king after he is chosen. That seems to be effectively mandatory. And since the king is only crowned and anointed once at his coronation this ritual seems to be less important than the coronation. 

We have no way of finding out where something like that would take place considering that even the great and proper coronations took place at multiple locations - the Starry Sept, Dragonstone, the Dragonpit in combination with the Red Keep, etc.

One would assume the High Sparrow would, if he were to/did bless Tommen, demand that the king come to him rather than the other way around, but we don't know.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Probably did happen.

A lot of formal events happened offscreen. 

- crowing of Joffrey

- crowning of Tommen

- crowning of Stannis

- crowning of Robb

- we don't have accounts of Robert crowning and weeding to Cersei.

That actually becomes a problem with hindsight, since chances are very high that Aegon's coronation is going to be a major event - whereas Joffrey's and Tommen's wasn't even important enough that Sansa or Jaime remember/reference the event.

I expect that Robert's proper coronation was combined with his wedding - very much like Aegon III's coronation was combined with his marriage to Jaehaera.

The idea that they had a proper coronation in KL while the Kingslanders were still counting their dead and the streets still run red with blood isn't particularly likely - and especially Aegon III's coronation (and Jaehaerys I's as well) makes clear that a king doesn't have to be crowned immediately after his predecessor has died, especially not after a civil war.

1 minute ago, HelenaExMachina said:

It isn’t in the HS interest to have Tommen declared a bastard though, as it is Tommen’s decree which gives the Faith the right to bear arms. That right becomes questionable if the king who issued it is declared illegitimate. I guess once the HS has established his power this is less of an issue but even so, worth noting. 

The important thing is the Tommen/Cersei publicly and formally overturned Maegor's and Jaehaerys' laws. That shows the Realm that the Warrior's Sons and the Poor Fellows (the latter of which had already been restored by the sparrows and the High Septon before Tommen gave his 'permission'). But this doesn't mean the Faith Militant suddenly becomes *illegal* again should King Tommen be declared illegitimate - or even if there were people thinking and saying that: the raw power the Faith Militant and High Septon will have build up in the meantime will make sure that such complaints will remain toothless.

I mean, Tommen granted lordships and titles and offices to a lot of people - they are not going to suddenly give up those honors and beg whoever tries to succeed Tommen to confirm his grants. They will take them all as legitimate. Just as Alyn of Hull didn't ask Aegon II or Aegon III to confirm Rhaenyra's decree which declared him legitimate.

[sweetsunray]

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

One would assume the High Sparrow would, if he were to/did bless Tommen, demand that the king come to him rather than the other way around, but we don't know.

Given the fact that HS hasn't come to any summons of Cersei at all so far, for any reason, and makes her and others come to him, and only sends at best a proxy delegation, I agree that it seems in character for him to have Tommen come to him. And Cersei is hypervigilant of Tommen. She nearly gets a heart attack when she sees him ahorse in the yard training at jousting with a sandbag. She hasn't even named a new master-at-arms (waiting for a Dornishman, but I'm curious we'll ever see that one). All she allowed Tommen were his 3 kittens. If there had been a blessing, even off page, you'd have Cersei's mind at least once remembering the palpatitations she had over Tommen going to the sept of Baelor, again. And Cersei would not have let him go alone

And then the answer lies in Cersei X, when she ends up visiting Margaery at her cell beneath the Sept of Baelor. She notices a difference in the appearance of the square to the last time she was there, which was when she made her private agreement with the High Sparrow and met him for the first time in Cersei VI.

Quote

They descended from the litter under Blessed Baelor's statue. The queen was pleased to see that the bones and filth had been cleaned away. Ser Osfryd had told it true; the crowd was neither as numerous nor as unruly as the sparrows had been. They stood about in small clumps, gazing sullenly at the doors of the Great Sept, where a line of novice septons had been drawn up with quarterstaffs in their hands. No steel, Cersei noted. That was either very wise or very stupid, she was not sure which. (Cersei X)

If Cersei hasn't seen the square since Cersei VI, then there has been no blessing ceremony at the Sept of Baelor with either Cersei or Tommen present. And the HS has consistently sent delegations to the Red Keep and hasn't set a foot in it. 

Conclusion: there hasn't been an official blessing ceremony where both HS and Tommen were present. 

THe question then becomes: will a High Septon declare a blessing and decree with or without the king present or not?

[Lord Varys]

19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Given the fact that HS hasn't come to any summons of Cersei at all so far, for any reason, and makes her and others come to him, and only sends at best a proxy delegation, I agree that it seems in character for him to have Tommen come to him. And Cersei is hypervigilant of Tommen. She nearly gets a heart attack when she sees him ahorse in the yard training at jousting with a sandbag. She hasn't even named a new master-at-arms (waiting for a Dornishman, but I'm curious we'll ever see that one). All she allowed Tommen were his 3 kittens. If there had been a blessing, even off page, you'd have Cersei's mind at least once remembering the palpatitations she had over Tommen going to the sept of Baelor, again. And Cersei would not have let him go alone

And then the answer lies in Cersei X, when she ends up visiting Margaery at her cell beneath the Sept of Baelor. She notices a difference in the appearance of the square to the last time she was there, which was when she made her private agreement with the High Sparrow and met him for the first time in Cersei VI.

If Cersei hasn't seen the square since Cersei VI, then there has been no blessing ceremony at the Sept of Baelor with either Cersei or Tommen present. And the HS has consistently sent delegations to the Red Keep and hasn't set a foot in it.

Conclusion: there hasn't been an official blessing ceremony where both HS and Tommen were present. 

I'd agree there, but again: Since nobody ever mentioned/noticed the coronation of the two Baratheon boy kings despite the fact we know that they happened there is still a (slight) possibility that Tommen got his blessing. I mean, sure, AFfC should have covered this blessing ritual in a chapter if it took place - but the same actually also goes for Joffrey's and Tommen's coronation.

However, the fact that Cersei has a lot of gestating plans in AFfC that are essentially little more than castles in the air (the Jon Snow plan, the Frey plan, in part the Trystane plan, etc.) could be a hint that she also failed to set a date for the blessing ritual before she came up with her Margaery plan (which was a pretty sudden idea after she had spoken to Qyburn about Maggy's prophecy).

19 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

THe question then becomes: will a High Septon declare a blessing and decree with or without the king present or not?

Don't think that works. It seems the ritual is a repetition of the anointment a king gets during his coronation, with the difference that only the High Septon crowning the king gets to crown him, marking the transformation from prince into king and the beginning of the king's reign, whereas subsequent High Septons chosen during the reign of said king only get to anoint him, showing that they and the Seven honor the king the same way his predecessors did.

Cersei is only so eager that the new High Septon bless Tommen because there are other pretenders and would-be king loose in the Realm. If this weren't the case the symbolic value of that ritual wouldn't be as important as it is to her. And back in ACoK Cersei and Tyrion used the new High Septon of Tyrion's making to condemn Stannis as a heretic and pretender while Joffrey is blessed as the chosen king of the Seven.

[sweetsunray]

I've gone back to King Aenys and Aegon the Conquerer. The "blessing" seems to be an anointing ritual with the seven oils by the high septon, which usually coincides with the coronation ceremony. 

Both Aegon and Aenys traveled to Oldtown for this, as back then the High Septon of course lived in the Starry Sept of Oldtown. 

Given all that happened, there has been no coronation, no anointing, and thus no blessing. 

First Joffrey died, and thus a funeral and a period of mourning. This was also the trial period of Tyrion, which ended with his flight and the death of Tywin. Tywin's funeral is in Cersei II, and that's when she learns that Lancel has been talking to the High Septon who she believes to be Tyrion's creature. Cersei III is the wedding of Tommen to Margaery and by Cersei IV the High Septon was killed by one of the Kettlebacks (I always confuse their names out of hand). Then the Most Devout hold deliberations to vote for a new High Septon. Once that becomes the High Sparrow he has not yet performed any blessing. Logically, once he privately agrees Tommen will get his blessing, Cersei would want the sparrows out of the city before any such ceremony to take place, and just seems pleased to know that one day it will be done, and starts to clear away her perceived enemies first, which only creates more turmoil. And with both trials hanging over her own head and that of Margaery, such a ceremony seems out of place too. 

So, I'm more and more leaning towards "it didn't happen (yet)"

[sweetsunray]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd agree there, but again: Since nobody ever mentioned/noticed the coronation of the two Baratheon boy kings despite the fact we know that they happened there is still a (slight) possibility that Tommen got his blessing. I mean, sure, AFfC should have covered this blessing ritual in a chapter if it took place - but the same actually also goes for Joffrey's and Tommen's coronation.

But was there even a Tommen coronation? 

You can assume that Cersei arranged for one quickly while Ned Stark was in his black cell. But at the very least we have a scene where both the High Septon and Joffrey stand together at the Sept of Baelor during Ned Stark's execution. Both had different outcomes in mind, but we do have Joffrey openly addressing court, etc. His public addressing, even seated on the throne, despite the fact he was a minor and had a regent and at the Sept of Baelor infers both having happened.

We have no such thing for Tommen, aside from Tywin's funeral, which is the sole time Tommen has left the Red Keep. And the fact that Cersei wanted to be rid of the High Septon to whom Lancel confessed suggests this High Septon may have been using delay tactics as well.

I agree it's not fully confirmed yet, which is why it's at the moment a question I've written down as "must ask George". It's a safe enough question I think for him to answer yes or no on. 

[Lord Varys]

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I've gone back to King Aenys and Aegon the Conquerer. The "blessing" seems to be an anointing ritual with the seven oils by the high septon, which usually coincides with the coronation ceremony. 

Yeah, it is an anointing during the coronation ceremony where the king is also crowned, and later only the anointing is repeated whenever a new High Septon first meets/presents himself to a king who has already been crowned and anointed by a previous High Septon. And this tradition should have its roots in Aegon the Conqueror always visiting the various High Septons during his many progresses, etc.

Whether Viserys I or Aegon III cared about being blessed by each new High Septon considering they were likely not exactly the greatest traveler kings is unclear, but since Baelor brought the High Septon to KL we can assume each new High Septon was obliged to bless his king.

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Given all that happened, there has been no coronation, no anointing, and thus no blessing. 

First Joffrey died, and thus a funeral and a period of mourning. This was also the trial period of Tyrion, which ended with his flight and the death of Tywin. Tywin's funeral is in Cersei II, and that's when she learns that Lancel has been talking to the High Septon who she believes to be Tyrion's creature. Cersei III is the wedding of Tommen to Margaery and by Cersei IV the High Septon was killed by one of the Kettlebacks (I always confuse their names out of hand). Then the Most Devout hold deliberations to vote for a new High Septon. Once that becomes the High Sparrow he has not yet performed any blessing. Logically, once he privately agrees Tommen will get his blessing, Cersei would want the sparrows out of the city before any such ceremony to take place, and just seems pleased to know that one day it will be done, and starts to clear away her perceived enemies first, which only creates more turmoil. And with both trials hanging over her own head and that of Margaery, such a ceremony seems out of place too. 

So, I'm more and more leaning towards "it didn't happen (yet)"

We can assume/should assume Tommen Baratheon was crowned and anointed king before Tywin's death, i.e. while Tyrion was languishing in his cell. This may not have been a grand ceremony but it seems to have happened. Tommen is a crowned and anointed king.

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

But was there even a Tommen coronation? 

You can assume that Cersei arranged for one quickly while Ned Stark was in his black cell. But at the very least we have a scene where both the High Septon and Joffrey stand together at the Sept of Baelor during Ned Stark's execution. Both had different outcomes in mind, but we do have Joffrey openly addressing court, etc. His public addressing, even seated on the throne, despite the fact he was a minor and had a regent and at the Sept of Baelor infers both having happened.

We have no such thing for Tommen, aside from Tywin's funeral, which is the sole time Tommen has left the Red Keep. And the fact that Cersei wanted to be rid of the High Septon to whom Lancel confessed suggests this High Septon may have been using delay tactics as well.

I agree it's not fully confirmed yet, which is why it's at the moment a question I've written down as "must ask George". It's a safe enough question I think for him to answer yes or no on. 

If you want question, ask about Robert's coronation and the crowns of the Baratheon kings. Tommen wears Joffrey's crown, but had Robert a new crown made or did he wear a Targaryen crown? He could also elaborate some more about Robert's decision to claim the throne - did they proclaim/crown Robert king the way Daemon Blackfyre, Stannis, Renly were crowned before they had won the war, or did Robert merely declare his intention to make himself king once Aerys II was dead? And did they reach the decision about a 'King Robert' before or after Rhaegar was dead.

And then, of course, the coronations of Robert, Joffrey and Tommen. What kind of ceremonies did they have - and in Robert's case: when exactly did they take place.

I'd expect that Tommen either had a private coronation in the Great Sept or Tywin moved the entire ceremony to the Red Keep. In light of Joffrey's murder security reasons may have caused them to keep the affair pretty private - sort of like the Tommen-Margaery wedding is also very shabby and private affair.

But in light of the importance those coronation events got in TWoIaF and FaB it would be actually great to ask George about those things - and possibly motivate him to have certain POVs - Sansa, Cersei, Jaime, etc. - remember or reference the coronations of the various Baratheon kings.

This extends also to Renly's coronation at Highgarden (and the machinations leading to him claiming the throne) and Stannis' coronation on Dragonstone (which seems to have happened before the Prologue since Stannis is already a king there, just as Shireen is a princess.

If Tommen actually wasn't a crowned king then basically his entire regency government and all the grants and decrees and laws that were made or overturned during his reign were not legitimate. That fact in and of itself means Tommen must have been crowned. Tommen made Ramsay a Bolton, he named Emmon Frey Lord of Riverrun, etc.

FaB gives us two reasonably long interregnums between the deaths of Maegor and the coronation of Jaehaerys I (where Jaehaerys is technically still a prince) and between the death of Aegon II and the coronation of King Aegon III. Cregan Stark is actually not a proper Hand, he is 'the Hand of the Uncrowned King', a man presuming to speak for a king who isn't king yet. 

Tommen's government is in the same reasonably secure footing as Alyssa and Rogar are after Jaehaerys I's coronation and the regency government of Aegon III is after Aegon III's coronation.

[argonak]

Related question, does Lancel know / have proof about Jamie and Cersei?  Obviously Lancel knows about his own guilt with Cersei, and has probably told the High Septon, but they're cousins, and Cersei was windowed before it began.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, argonak said:

Related question, does Lancel know / have proof about Jamie and Cersei?  Obviously Lancel knows about his own guilt with Cersei, and has probably told the High Septon, but they're cousins, and Cersei was windowed before it began.

Lancel implies he knows when he talks to Jaime in AFfC. But that's long after Stannis' letter essentially put that idea in the head of pretty much everyone. I doubt Lancel knew while he was still Robert's squire, and I see no reason why Cersei should have told him afterwards. Fucking your cousin isn't the same as fucking your brother.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, argonak said:

Related question, does Lancel know / have proof about Jamie and Cersei?  Obviously Lancel knows about his own guilt with Cersei, and has probably told the High Septon, but they're cousins, and Cersei was windowed before it began.

The conversation between Lancel and Jaime is illuminating at Darry:

• Lancel confesses he wanted to be Jaime
• Jaime replies he's not to be aspired after since he's a kingslayer, and Lancel bluntly admits he is as well, mentioning the wine. Jaime makes less of it by saying Robert wasn't much of a king. But hello! By this point Lancel is not that shy anymore of admitting what he did. 
• He prays for the High Septon who died, and Jaime thinks Lancel was the fool who got the High Septon killed for spilling the beans to the man
• Lancel declares he decided to join the Warrior's Sons and go to the new High Septon, and by this point Lancel pities both Jaime and Cersei and prays for their souls

So, Lancel for sure told the HS that he got Robert so drunk that he'd get killed and that this was to please Cersei. The reasonable question the HS would have is why the hell Cersei wanted Robert dead? And this all coincides with Ned Stark claiming Joffrey was not Robert's son, etc. And he has the confession of Kettleback that he killed the prior High Septon with a pillow in his sleep. 

Lancel's affair with Cersei may have only begun after Cersei was widowed, but Lancel already lived at the Red Keep long before that, as Robert's squire, and he helped to get him killed before he had an affair with Cersei. And we don't know what Lancel heard or saw before Jaime left. The other squire was Tyrek. Who hasn't been found "yet", but by aFfC Jaime starts to sow the seeds for the reader that Varys may have him somewhere safe. The speculation amongst readers is "why": imo he is keeping him aside to produce him as a witness at the opportune time, to expose the affair between Jaime and Cersei. Unlike Lancel he wasn't part of any regicide plan, never had an affair with Cersei, but would have known as much as Lancel did. And we know Jaime and Cersei could be careless. They fucked in Darry castle in the lord's bed, while Robert was sleeping from drink on a rug. They fuck in the sept next to Joffrey's body. Bran saw them at WF. All these times Cersei and Jaime were careless, and one time they were caught by a kid. This makes for a precedent that both Lancel and Tyrek separately witnessed them bedding one another. And since Tyrek is untainted by any political scheming throughout that time, except being wed off to a baby, he is likely the most valuable witness on the sibling affair.  

And what is Cersei's word worth? She confessed to sleeping with several men, for which she walked through the strees of KL naked. And then there are the witnesses who admited they lied to frame Margaery. Indeed Cersei's sole chance is trial by combat with undead Robert Strong as her champion.  The question then becomes whether the High Sparrow will still allow her a trial by combat or not? And if the High Sparrow has not yet blessed Tommen in a ceremony, this might actually be the excuse for the HS to get Tommen alone to potentially outlaw trial by combat, even with Kevan and Pycelle dead. 

 

[Lord Varys]

Tyrek can know more than Lancel. He could, for instance, have overheard a conversation between Jaime and Cersei or he could have seen something without being seen by Cersei/Jaime.

But he doesn't need to know anything, actually. Varys could just prepare him to sing a song of his own devise. Certainly Varys can turn Tyrek in the same kind of creature Qyburn turned the Blue Bard into - and considering the time he had for that he could actually use less cruel/invasive methods to accomplish that than Qyburn had in the short time he was given for the Blue Bard project.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrek can know more than Lancel. He could, for instance, have overheard a conversation between Jaime and Cersei or he could have seen something without being seen by Cersei/Jaime.

But he doesn't need to know anything, actually. Varys could just prepare him to sing a song of his own devise. Certainly Varys can turn Tyrek in the same kind of creature Qyburn turned the Blue Bard into - and considering the time he had for that he could actually use less cruel/invasive methods to accomplish that than Qyburn had in the short time he was given for the Blue Bard project.

Yes. Though I think he problably did see stuff. Varys doesn't "fabricate" information so much as how and when he presents it. But it makes sense that Tyrek would be used and would reappear in an arc where his cousin and former fellow squire Lancel becomes a crucial character, except Cersei can never make Lancel out to be a jilted lover out for revenge, or a boy with a crush who "misunderstood" whatever she had said about Robert in a fit of rage (all couples quarrel). It's also noticeable that Tyrek disappeared at a time when Lancel was Cersei's lover, and after all the KL bastards were killed AND Gendry wasn't retrieved before entering the worst warzone of the RL. Though Lancels is the one indirectly responsible for Robert's death via the strongwine, he was at the time fully colluding with Cersei and then later Tyrion. Tyrek was not. 

Ideally, Varys would have wanted Robert's bastards and one of Robert's Lannister squires who was a witness, and keep them safe, hidden and away until he needed them to expose Cersei and have people denounce her children and welcome Aegon instead. 

 

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Ideally, Varys would have wanted Robert's bastards and one of Robert's Lannister squires who was a witness, and keep them safe, hidden and away until he needed them to expose Cersei and have people denounce her children and welcome Aegon instead. 

Yeah, that's likely the point of that entire scheme - and it might still play out more or less in this manner.

But considering that you cannot really have *proof* of the twincest as such, it is quite clear that Tyrek would only be used as an eye witness or ear witness, publicly declaring or confirming that Cersei and Jaime had an affair and are the parents of Robert's children. He doesn't really need to have heard or seen anything to fulfill that role.

Any person listening to his claims wouldn't be able to double-check what he is saying, so Tyrek's effectiveness here would likely be how good/convincing his testimony/song/performance is, not so much on whether what he says is actually true.

By the very structure of the society we are talking about it is quite clear that people don't actually have the means to properly investigate and verify or falsify the claims about the twincest.

What counts against the idea that Tyrek saw something important is the fact that neither Jaime (who actually thinks about Tyrek in AFfC) nor Cersei ever think or fear that the boy might know something he should not know (unless with Lancel). If Tyrek had overheard or witnessed something suspicious then things would be different - granted, Cerse/Jaime don't have to be aware of the fact that he did that, but I'd say this cast some doubt on this idea.

The reason why Varys took Tyrek likely is because he was Robert's squire - and as such he is ideally suited to tell stories that take place in the royal bedchamber in a manner that encourages other people to believe him (cf. Ned's belief in AGoT that Hugh as Jon's former squire should be privy to many things that went on in his master's household).

I'd not be surprised if the sparrows brought forth Tyrek before or after or during Cersei's trial to throw some more dirt at her, assuming the trial-by-combat unfolds as planned.

I don't think Robert's bastards are a necessity to denounce Cersei's children - not in a struggle against a Targaryen pretender during which Baratheon claimants look shabby and bad in any case. But it is certainly possible he was interested in Edric and Gendry for that reason (although one imagines he would have ensured Gendry went where Tyrek went if he had felt it necessary to have a son of Robert's handy when Tyrek was to come forth).