Big Question regarding Inheritance

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I put it to you that you overestimate the “realism” of this series. It is a fantasy tale, in the end.

A tale dealing with two magical bloodlines at its heart.

That claim has nothing to do with what you claimed before. There certainly could be 'two magical bloodlines' at the heart of the story (I don't buy that, of course - this is a story about individuals, not bloodlines, and especially not magical bloodlines), but there is no indication or need whatsoever to imagine or believe that those bloodlines go back thousands of years in unbroken male succession or existed this long as royal or even noble bloodlines.

The author wants and does play with unreliability of old stories, and he always reinforces this when readers ask him about legendary figures of the past.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 7/20/2019 at 6:39 PM, Lord Varys said:

The Lannister case had the husband of a Lannister princess - Joffrey Lydden - take the Lannister name when he was chosen as King of the Rock by a council in the West.

This was obviously a rather special case, taking place during the Andal power grab in the West.

I wasn't referring to Joffrey Lydden but to their descent from Lann himself. And while it could be said that's all legend, the same could be said of the Starks being descended from Brandon the Builder.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 7/20/2019 at 1:52 PM, HelenaExMachina said:

Given there has never in apparently 8000 years been a ruling Lady Stark/Queen Stark, I would suggest that almost the exact opposite of your last guess is true

My post had nothing to do with whether or not there has ever been a ruling female Stark.

[dsjj251]

On 7/20/2019 at 6:39 PM, Lord Varys said:

The Lannister case had the husband of a Lannister princess - Joffrey Lydden - take the Lannister name when he was chosen as King of the Rock by a council in the West.

This was obviously a rather special case, taking place during the Andal power grab in the West.

The general problem here is that in as patriarchal world as Westeros it simply makes no sense that women would be treated the way they are and then men actually go by the names of their mothers or grandmothers rather than their fathers. Sure, a Harry the Heir would inherit the Eyrie and the Vale because of his Arryn grandmother, but a son honoring his father would keep his father's name. He would also not be ashamed of his father's name, nor would he really see the need to change it. He can include the Arryn banner into his own - as Harry has already done.

And if you go to the Velaryon claimants to the Iron Throne then neither Jacaerys nor Laenor have any reason to favor the names of their mothers over the names of their fathers. Especially not Laenor, who is the son of the great Sea Snake, a man more formidable than any of the sons of the Old King. Who needs the Targaryen name if he is descended from the greatest man of the 1st century AC?

The Baratheons were always described as the descendants of Orys Baratheon, the alleged half-brother of Aegon the Conqueror. FaB did not confirm that Orys was Lord Aerion's bastard son, but it did very much reinforce the fact that people believed this to be the case - which makes the Baratheons a non-incestuous, illegitimate cadet branch of House Targaryen. They may be black-haired, but they are Targaryens anyway.

George later made Robert and his brothers even closer cousins of the Targaryens by making their paternal grandmother Princess Rhaelle Targaryen, a daughter of Aegon V and sister of Jaehaerys II.

You are certainly right that George's obsession with house/family names does actually not fit with the naming habits in the real middle ages. Kings and nobles were indeed referenced via their estates and castles.

House name and Family name arent actually the same thing in European ,medieval monarchies. 

So for example, if Rhaenyra  's son had ascended the throne, his title could have be.

King Jacaerys Velaryon of House Targaryen, First of His Name.

 

Dynasty(House) intact, but a change in the family name. Or he could have changed his last name. Multiple male monarchs who ascended to the throne through the female line actually did have their mothers names, although all the examples I see , show them having that name since birth, and never took their father's names. 

Also, Aemon and Baelon were both great warriors. Not sure why anyone sees Corlys are great. 

 

[White26]

Don't pay too much attention to family names. They were not a thing in medieval world. Henry I didn't care that his grandson, future Henry II would have different "house name". Henry I didn't have a house name to begin with. Marin knew this yet his world seems more static than real medieval world, yet he found a solution for that.

Most obvious is that a heir can choose his mother's or wife's family name so Joffrey Lydden, when married Lannister princess, became Joffrey Lannister and with him began younger, Andal, Lannister branch. So present Lannisters are descendant from Lann the Clever only in female line. There are other possibilities, like you mentioned, "making" cadet branch like Lannister of Darry etc. Joining house names and sigils like house Nymeros Martell.

So Martin is aware of real medieval world's fluidity with family names. We call French dynasties Capetians and later Valois but house Valois was in fact the same house as Capetians, descended in male line. We should also remember this line:

"I will, ser," said Leobald, and only then raised the matter of Lady Hornwood. Poor thing, with no husband to defend her lands nor son to inherit. His own lady wife was a Hornwood, sister to the late Lord Halys, doubtless they recalled. "An empty hall is a sad one. I had a thought to send my younger son to Lady Donella to foster as her own. Beren is near ten, a likely lad, and her own nephew. He would cheer her, I am certain, and perhaps he would even take the name Hornwood".

So with Sansa and Tyrion, their son could take a name 'House Lannister of Winterfell" with Lion and Wolf as his sigil (badass) or name "Lannister Stark" like Martells, or even a Stark name like Joffrey Lydden. Same goes for Velaryons, they could call themselfs Targaryens, there was even a line in Fire&Blood when one of the boys says he is true Targaryen.

[cpg2016]

I think it's pretty clear that any son of Tyrion and Sansa's is going to be surnamed "Stark" for purely political reasons.  Maintaining links with tradition is important, and one of the traditional political precepts of the North is that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.  Tyrion is no fool, and has no cause to love his family anyway.

And to whoever said Northerners are small-minded for wanting traitorous Boltons over a physically handicapped Tyrion + Sansa... well, that's kind of ridiculous.  First off, Sansa's marriage is widely regarded, and rightly so, as a sham.  Women may not have many options but they are nominally supposed to have a choice in marriage, which is why they're asked to accept their husband.  Sansa can claim she's done it under duress.  She can claim she didn't swear before a heart tree.  Lots of ways out of that.  And it's quite clear the North doesn't want a Bolton in charge, and they're waiting for the slightest possible cause to revolt and put a Stark back in Winterfell.