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U.S. Politics: Trump of the Will


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2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

For example homophobia  wasn’t as a big a problem for Rome before Christianity took over the empire. 

It depends on what part of Rome's history you are looking at. At one stage the common belief was sodomy was only to be used on another man and only as a act of dominance. The values changed over time. At one later stage, yes, as with the Greeks, homosexuality, pederasty, female sodomy, bestiality and even pedophilia became common place and acceptable.

I personally have nothing against whatever anyone gets up to in their bedrooms, so long as it is between consenting adults - so no children, animals or people that say no. But, as for what society and especially society's youth should be exposed to at what time, that is another matter.

Consider the Roman Colosseum (considering just about all of what I mentioned above, plus all manner of killing was carried out for public spectacle) - what acts were depraved enough to negatively effect society?

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Mostly by racists who thinks their race not being the clear majority/a monopoly of power in society, is in it itself a bad thing.

It’d be bad in it of itself if America would have non-whites as the majority because non-whites would inevitably “destroy” America’s culture. Indirectly discounting non-whites Americans as real Americans.

It's nothing to do with racism, color or ethnicity - its to do with keeping a value system that generates a better future for a given cultures offspring.

Say I wanted to become Japanese - it is on me to learn the language, prove that I can abide by the cultural values and show that I have something to add to Japanese cultural as a whole. Otherwise, why should the Japanese take me? Why would any culture logically want to take another person that didn't fit or add to it? (note - that is rhetorical, I know many of the reasons most Western countries are currently employing wholesale immigration).

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If Secularism is a defining characteristic of “Western culture” 

I'm not sure that it is, it is just thrown around as being. I would argue that Western Culture is currently lost and in decline and, though I am not religious, I would also argue that Western Cultures belief sets were built upon Greek, Roman and Christian values over time. Now, I see a time when values are being fractured and dissipated, not growing in one direction or another. There are historical precedents for this occurring before and it never seems to end well.

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5 hours ago, Triskele said:

Double post sans apology.

Vanity Fair article here (limited clicks*) on GOP insiders saying that Kamala Harris is making them afraid.  This is a good example of my hypothetical from upthread.   I still probably have Warren as my #1, but if things evolve and someone else like Harris looks strongest I can be persuaded, big time.  

*I really hate how much the internet has moved to limited free articles in recent years.  I have a NYT subscription, but that's like it.  So all of these times I'm trying to give y'all fair warning I'm in the same boat, and I just try to be selective with many of the other outlets.  

I don't see why you would hate that, unless you want journalists to work for free. Ad sales are nowhere near lucrative enough to sustain most newspapers and magazines after Google, Facebook and other social media platforms got into the market. 

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37 minutes ago, ummester said:

Explain this, if every human culture was to become equally multicultural, where would the diversity be? 

I don't think you know what words mean. 

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13 minutes ago, mormont said:

I don't think you know what words mean. 

It's nice that you are resorting to playing the man over the ball, because you obviously don't want to deal with the question, so I will rephrase it for you:

Diverse = different

Multicultural = many cultures combined together

If every human culture was equally multicultural - ie, every culture on Earth contained the same combination of cultural elements - how would any culture than be diverse from another? They wouldn't - they would all be the same. Global multiculturalism will dilute cultural diversity to none.

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3 minutes ago, ummester said:

It's nice that you are resorting to playing the man over the ball, because you obviously don't want to deal with the question, so I will rephrase it for you:

Diverse = different

Multicultural = many cultures combined together

If every human culture was equally multicultural - ie, every culture on Earth contained the same combination of cultural elements - how would any culture than be diverse from another? They wouldn't - they would all be the same. Global multiculturalism will dilute cultural diversity to none.

Those may be the definitions you want to use. They are not what the words mean.

Multicultural societies are by definition diverse. They contain within them diversity. That is what those words mean. 

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4 minutes ago, mormont said:

Multicultural societies are by definition diverse. 

Yes and departments of defense have nothing to do with starting wars.

They are only diverse until they become a new cohesive culture or collapse. If they cohere and multiculturalism spreads globally, it will remove cultural diversity, they is no way around that logic.

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35 minutes ago, mormont said:

Multicultural societies are by definition diverse. They contain within them diversity. That is what those words mean. 

Yes and no. Claude Levi-Strauss wrote very interesting things about this very specific point some fifty years ago.

Ummester's point is hardly as silly as you want to make it. Unless you claim to be as good an anthropologist as Levi-Strauss.

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2 hours ago, ummester said:

It depends on what part of Rome's history you are looking at. At one stage the common belief was sodomy was only to be used on another man and only as a act of dominance. The values changed over time. At one later stage, yes, as with the Greeks, homosexuality, pederasty, female sodomy, bestiality and even pedophilia became common place and acceptable.

To the bolded no.  Beasitlty was never accepted in Greece anymore than it is now.  And I must say I question why you’re talking about raping children and animals as if  homosexuality acceptance is as grotesque as that. 

Also, I said less of a problem. Not non-problem. Rome was throughout it’s history patriarchal society. A man assuming the “feminine” role in sex, having more stigma associated with it is certainly problematic. Though I would say less so than society looking at any sort of behavior something that deserves torture, or death. 

2 hours ago, ummester said:

I personally have nothing against whatever anyone gets up to in their bedrooms, so long as it is between consenting adults - so no children, animals or people that say no. But, as for what society and especially society's youth should be exposed to at what time, that is another matter

Youths and society being exposed to people of the same-sex couples  kissing or in dating generally won’t leave much more a scar on them than seeing heterosexual couples doing the same thing. No one is arguing that everyone watch while two guys have hardcore gay sex in public. Just not get angry, at seeing a same-sex couple in any part of society do things like a heterosexual couple would/could do with no real controversy. 

2 hours ago, ummester said:

It's nothing to do with racism, color or ethnicity - its to do with keeping a value system that generates a better future for a given cultures offspring.

No it definitely does. Which is why white-supremacists generally bemoan that America would lose its culture if America became non-white.

And again  what cultural values are under attack by mostly secular, mostly Christian, immigrants to US who come from countries who are Democratic in some form or at least nominally such? What cultural values do the majority of these immigrants have that are jeopardizing the greatness of America’s Western culture?

Hell what exact awesome values are you concerned about being preserved in general?

2 hours ago, ummester said:

Consider the Roman Colosseum (considering just about all of what I mentioned above, plus all manner of killing was carried out for public spectacle) - what acts were depraved enough to negatively effect society?

Yeah you saying you have no problem with what people do in their bedrooms, so long as it’s consenting, is kinda undercut by you lumping same-sex activety, with murder, the rape of children, and the rape of animals.

Two consenting guys kissing is not something that will negatively effect society nor would I call it depraved.

Killing people, rape, generally do negatively impact society and are depraved.

It’s really not that complicated.

 

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1 hour ago, ummester said:

It's nice that you are resorting to playing the man over the ball, because you obviously don't want to deal with the question, so I will rephrase it for you:

Diverse = different

Multicultural = many cultures combined together

If every human culture was equally multicultural - ie, every culture on Earth contained the same combination of cultural elements - how would any culture than be diverse from another? They wouldn't - they would all be the same. Global multiculturalism will dilute cultural diversity to none.

Co-existing together, not combined. It's an important distinction. Though not that it really matters I guess, because by your definition of culture myself, an atheist Métis person, Justin Trudeau, a Christian of Scottish and French Canadian descent, and Jagmeet Singh, a Sikh of Indian descent, are all the same culture because we're secular and speak English. I personally wouldn't have called the Métis sash and the Sikh turban just variation within a culture, but I'm coming around to it.

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34 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Yes and no. Claude Levi-Strauss wrote very interesting things about this very specific point some fifty years ago.

Ummester's point is hardly as silly as you want to make it. Unless you claim to be as good an anthropologist as Levi-Strauss.

If you're attempting to recruit Levi-Strauss for the anti-multicultural position, I don't think it's my credentials that are relevant. Levi-Strauss believed that diversity within a culture was the source of all progress, after all. He didn't believe that all cultures were equal, but then that's not what multiculturalism means either: it's just another caricature that those opposed to multiculturalism like to trot out for some easy hits. And it's easily countered. Because if you truly believe, as ummester claims to, that Western culture is the greatest that exists, then multiculturalism can be no threat to it. Other cultures should not be able to challenge or replace it. 

It's always entertaining to me how those who most loudly insist on how superior Western culture is are so worried about how vulnerable and frail it is. Perhaps because they sense that 'Western culture' is an ill-defined mix of stuff that arose from and still relies on multiculturalism. They see the paradox: they want to make static a thing that has always evolved. 

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On 7/20/2019 at 1:41 PM, HoodedCrow said:

Hmm, I guess Ormond is okay with hebephilia, and ephebophilia? After you are 14, a teen is fair game for mall predators? Priest predators? Moore was also accused of attempted forced sex with a minor. Still okay? I took several post grad psychiatry courses. Maybe you could clarify, Ormond:)

You know, it's just offensive to accuse me of being "OK" with something just because I want people to use the correct terminology for it. No clarification should be necessary. 

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1 hour ago, mormont said:

If you're attempting to recruit Levi-Strauss for the anti-multicultural position,

I don't need to attempt anything, he made his positions quite clear (just as he was explicit in deriding delusions of superiority btw). 

This specific point is not easy to address, which is why it invites some nuance, even if it is misused. Misrepresentations, strawmans, and oversimplifications will not help. 

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14 hours ago, ummester said:

The flip side is also true, diversity can bee seen as a euphemism for cultural destruction. Multiculturalism is, in itself, an oxymoron - as cultures are always singular.

Only for xenophobes and racists. 

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I think you will find it is the swing against progressivism that is growing more rapidly ATM, as progressive politics become more and more detached from what most people understand as normal social limits.

Negative. It's just a loud, angry minority, largely comprised of old white people who are afraid of how society is changing. They've always had absolute power and they're seeing it slowly slipping through their fingers. That's what's driving right wing politics in the West these days.

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@DMC,

I heard a study discussed on NPR the other day, but couldn’t find it because they never cited the authors. It compared all major parties in Western nations, and it’s findings were that the Republican Party was most closely associated with Marie Le Pen’s National Rally. Any idea which study that was?

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Negative. It's just a loud, angry minority, largely comprised of old white people who are afraid of how society is changing. They've always had absolute power and they're seeing it slowly slipping through their fingers. That's what's driving right wing politics in the West these days.

Ok - wait and see.

You are deluded if you think old angry white people have all the power. The Davos and Bildeberg groups are composed of more than just Caucasians and there are as many homeless whites on the streets of most Western cities as other ethnic groups now.

I am lucky - I know it - I have a good, permanent high paying Federal job in a Western country. Right place, right time and worked well enough to secure my status - but I look at the streets, even in my small Western city and see the homeless (white and other) multiply by the day.

This is not a blip on the radar. There is human feces building up in Western streets and the plague is back in some of our biggest cities. I traveled Africa in the 90s - I saw dead African children on the roadside ignored by the people leading me through their city because they had to make coin. What is brewing in most of the West now will put central Africa in the 90s to shame.

What is driving right wing politics is the the progressive arm of the lefts refusal to even acknowledge that things are crumbling and need repair. The total detachment from the reality that the average Westerner is staring down the barrel of daily.

Don't be seduced by your online 'Utopia'. Go out and look at how the real world, the real streets of your cities, have changed over the last 20 years. Something is terribly wrong and more wake up to it every day.

4 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

Co-existing together, not combined. It's an important distinction. Though not that it really matters I guess, because by your definition of culture myself, an atheist Métis person, Justin Trudeau, a Christian of Scottish and French Canadian descent, and Jagmeet Singh, a Sikh of Indian descent, are all the same culture because we're secular and speak English. I personally wouldn't have called the Métis sash and the Sikh turban just variation within a culture, but I'm coming around to it.

Yes, defining where culture begins and ends is difficult, I agree. All one can take is a snapshot at a point in time (see above). But I would argue that what you are arguing is a horse v cart/ chicken v egg type issue.

My POV is that if a culture has shared language and values, cohesion will follow. You seem to be suggesting that cohesion leads to the facets I feel are needed to create it?

It is my belief that the root of any society is the family unit - the male/female breeding pair and the extended family it provides. A culture that re-enforces reproduction, upbringing and future potential for its offspring will therefore be the most successful. I don't suggest this out of any form of bigotry, or suggestion that one form of sexuality is better or worse than another (for instance I am fully aware that gay men tend to be the most creative and intellectual in any society) only out of of understanding of the biological requirements of existence.

If the West stops making babies, and Islamic and/or Asian cultures continue to - the West will decline and the other cultures will rise - there is no way around this, it is just the nature of biological existence. Due to lack of baby production because of self interest and decadence, the West is ramping up immigration, which will hasten its decline. It has happened before and will happen again. Society, culture and civilizations rise and fall. 

What saddens me is that the West, for a brief while, was the closest to Utopia human existence ever became. We will get back there again - but I wont see it, nor you, or your children, or even our children's children. We are going to regress hard and take a while to recover from where we are at now.

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That... was quite the read. Now that you mention it there were five dead African children in my parking space just yesterday. 

That they were alive before I pulled into it is not germane to this conversation.

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50 minutes ago, ummester said:

If the West stops making babies, and Islamic and/or Asian cultures continue to - the West will decline and the other cultures will rise - there is no way around this, it is just the nature of biological existence.

Can't wait for this, tbh. I can finally find some decent falafel in the mid west.

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1 hour ago, ummester said:

What is driving right wing politics is the the progressive arm of the lefts refusal to even acknowledge that things are crumbling and need repair. The total detachment from the reality that the average Westerner is staring down the barrel of daily.

Setting aside your nonsensical rant, this is actually the exact opposite of what’s actually happening. Liberals badly want to cure society’s ills. Conservatives, OTOH, couldn’t be bothered to spend a penny on them unless they’re for people that look like them. In fact, they actually advocate for policies that would make them worse, i.e. ending Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security for starters. S***, Trump just moved to end welfare benefits for three million people. Pray tell how that helps people who are struggling?

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1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Setting aside your nonsensical rant, this is actually the exact opposite of what’s actually happening. Liberals badly want to cure society’s ills. Conservatives, OTOH, couldn’t be bothered to spend a penny on them unless they’re for people that look like them. In fact, they actually advocate for policies that would make them worse, i.e. ending Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security for starters. S***, Trump just moved to end welfare benefits for three million people. Pray tell how that helps people who are struggling?

Socialism only works with cultural homogeneity. Think about it - In marriage, you are happy to share with your spouse. You get a divorce and you don't want to share. Culture is ultimately no different.

Believe it or not, I actually lean towards socialism. I believe that the true test of a society is how well it treats its least fortunate. But we have to define whom a society encompasses before we can work out how best to treat them. it cant't be the whole fucking planet - there are too may cultures with too many of their own issues to sort through.

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