U.S. Politics: Trump of the Will

[ummester]

1 minute ago, Ser Reptitious said:

Ok, I'm genuinely curious. When exactly was that Utopian moment? And what made it so?

Late 80s/early 90s - because no subset of humanity had ever been as free. But we also sowed the seeds for our own destruction in that time, by re-enforcing corporate law introduced in the 70s. Greed - it fucks humanity up every time.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

19 minutes ago, Raja said:

Can't wait for this, tbh. I can finally find some decent falafel in the mid west.

There’s a ton of good falafel here in Minneapolis.

I always use food as an example though when people complain about cultural changes. Americans constantly told Italians to go back to Italy at the beginning of the 20^th century. Now pizza is among the most popular foods in the country. And to all those people who see what’s going on at the Southern border as a good thing, you can pry my taco out of my cold dead hands!

[maarsen]

19 hours ago, Fragile Bird said:

 

What I saw on Fb said the real Donald Trump, but hey, maybe it was faked. Maybe the Russians did it. 

I never doubted what you saw but I am sure saner heads got Trump to delete it as quickly as possible. Considering that Mueller admitted that Trump is compromised by Russians, Trump basically blew a gasket hence the stream of invective. 

My take is Trump thinks Mueller has seen the piss tape or has a copy. And that is when the gasket blew. 

[Larry of the Lawn]

7 minutes ago, ummester said:

Socialism only works with cultural homogeneity. Think about it - In marriage, you are happy to share with your spouse. You get a divorce and you don't want to share. Culture is ultimately no different.

Believe it or not, I actually lean towards socialism. I believe that the true test of a society is how well it treats its least fortunate. But we have to define whom a society encompasses before we can work out how best to treat them. it cant't be the whole fucking planet - there are too may cultures with too many of their own issues to sort through.

Ah you must be thrilled about the hard working, devoutly Christian masses from Central America immigrating to the US then?  With birth rates declining among native born citizens surely these immigrants who share the "western values" you espouse are a boon to you?  

[ummester]

3 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

Ah you must be thrilled about the hard working, devoutly Christian masses from Central America immigrating to the US then?  With birth dates declining among native born citizens surely these immigrants who share the "western values" you espouse are a boon to you?  

Well, I'm not American, so it doesn't particularly bother me - however, what I understand about the US border crisis thingy is that a lot of the immigrants showing up aren't even from South America - so surely someone must be asking the question, how are they getting to the US border?

[ummester]

36 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

That... was quite the read. Now that you mention it there were five dead African children in my parking space just yesterday. 

That they were alive before I pulled into it is not germane to this conversation.

So you live in South Africa then?

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 minutes ago, ummester said:

Socialism only works with cultural homogeneity. Think about it - In marriage, you are happy to share with your spouse. You get a divorce and you don't want to share. Culture is ultimately no different.

Believe it or not, I actually lean towards socialism. I believe that the true test of a society is how well it treats its least fortunate. But we have to define whom a society encompasses before we can work out how best to treat them. it cant't be the whole fucking planet - there are too may cultures with too many of their own issues to sort through.

Also, anytime you randomly lead with “socialism” as a pejorative, you’ve already lost the argument.

[ummester]

1 minute ago, Tywin et al. said:

Also, anytime you randomly lead with “socialism” as a pejorative, you’ve already lost the argument.

Yep, obviously you misunderstand what I am saying.

I'm an old lefty - from back when the left actually made sense and stood for the working class of a given nation,  before it was overtaken by progressive corporate zealots.

[A True Kaniggit]

42 minutes ago, Raja said:

Can't wait for this, tbh. I can finally find some decent falafel in the mid west.

Are you claiming the only thing currently in your  area is..... awful falafel?

[TrueMetis]

1 hour ago, ummester said:

Yes, defining where culture begins and ends is difficult, I agree. All one can take is a snapshot at a point in time (see above). But I would argue that what you are arguing is a horse v cart/ chicken v egg type issue.

My POV is that if a culture has shared language and values, cohesion will follow. You seem to be suggesting that cohesion leads to the facets I feel are needed to create it?

Not really suggesting anything so much as taking the piss out of your overly broad definition of culture.

Quote

If the West stops making babies, and Islamic and/or Asian cultures continue to - the West will decline and the other cultures will rise - there is no way around this, it is just the nature of biological existence. Due to lack of baby production because of self interest and decadence, the West is ramping up immigration, which will hasten its decline. It has happened before and will happen again. Society, culture and civilizations rise and fall.

I suppose I need state this more explicitly because you don't seem to be getting it. Plenty of people from Islamic and Asian cultures are, by the definition you gave, of the same culture as many of us in the west. You're definition of culture has no boundaries, national or otherwise. And is formed solely on ideals and language. As such, two British guys who were born in the same hospital, who's ancestry can be traced pretty much entirely to Britain, who lived next to each other their entire lives, who enjoys the same sports, traditions, idioms, etc. Can be separate cultures because one wants the government to be secular, and the other believes in making religious laws. While that secular British bloke has the same culture as some random Iranian guy, even if they share no sports, traditions idioms, etc. Because that Iranian guy also believes in secular government and speaks English.

Like you can't blame immigration for this when by you're definition of culture being an immigrant tells us nothing of whether someone has a different culture regardless of where they are from.

[Raja]

15 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Are you claiming the only thing currently in your  area is..... awful falafel?

Ye - even though MI has some really nice places ( Dearborn), I spent 5/6 years in Bahrain, and man those falafels were out of this world. Haven't found something that comes close.

[ummester]

17 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

I suppose I need state this more explicitly because you don't seem to be getting it. Plenty of people from Islamic and Asian cultures are, by the definition you gave, of the same culture as many of us in the west. You're definition of culture has no boundaries, national or otherwise. And is formed solely on ideals and language. As such, two British guys who were born in the same hospital, who's ancestry can be traced pretty much, who lived next to each other their entire lives, who enjoys the same sports, traditions, idioms, etc. Can be separate cultures because one wants the government to be secular, and the other believes in making religious laws. While that secular British bloke has the same culture as some random Iranian guy, even if they share no sports, traditions idioms, etc. Because that Iranian guy also believes in secular government and speaks English.

Like you can't blame immigration for this when by you're definition of culture being an immigrant tells us nothing of whether someone has a different culture regardless of where they are from.

Re random Iranian guy in Britain  - my definition would suggest he is British if he puts English common law above Islam. If he holds Islam up as a greater source of philosophical truth and social values than British common law, than he is not culturally British. Values and language - its not hard. Adopt the values and language of the culture you migrate into and all is well, do not adapt and things will turn out badly.

WHEN IN ROME, DO AS THE ROMANS DO - it really is that simple. Rome will change at its own pace, You never have the right to dictate that change. As soon as you try to dictate the rate of change, you hasten the collapse of Rome.

Re tracing back human history - sure it is massively complicated. The origins of the West are in the proto Indo European - this is distinct from Asian and African cultures. This does not mean there was no cross pollination of ideas and genetics before the GrecoRoman civilizations but a clear line can still be traced from the tribes of the Black Sea until the modern West.

[Martell Spy]

43 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

There’s a ton of good falafel here in Minneapolis.

I always use food as an example though when people complain about cultural changes. Americans constantly told Italians to go back to Italy at the beginning of the 20^th century. Now pizza is among the most popular foods in the country. And to all those people who see what’s going on at the Southern border as a good thing, you can pry my taco out of my cold dead hands!

We are coming for the taco trucks, like it or not. You can eat a hot dog like a real American.

[TrueMetis]

1 minute ago, ummester said:

Re random Iranian guy in Britain  - my definition would suggest he is British if he puts English common law above Islam. If he holds Islam up as a greater source of philosophical truth and social values than British common law, than he is not culturally British. Values and language - its not hard. Adopt the values and language of the culture you migrate into and all is well, do not adapt and things will turn out badly.

Re tracing back human history - sure it is massively complicated. The origins of the West are in the proto Indo European - this is distinct from Asian and African cultures. This does not mean there was no cross pollination of ideas and genetics before the GrecoRoman civilizations but a clear line can still be traced from the tribes of the Black Sea until the modern West.

I didn't say he was in Britain mate. Nor did I say that the culture these two were part of was British. Because by your definition of "values and language" British Culture isn't a thing, unless you're going to argue that in my example of the two British guys one of them isn't British I guess.

[Zorral]

8 hours ago, ummester said:

A culture is singular.

Explain this, if every human culture was to become equally multicultural, where would the diversity be? Cultural diversity only exists because cultures (plural) are unique and singular - mixing them all together into a super culture destroys the diversity each originally had. Over time, removing diversity and competition leads to total stagnation.

The very declaration that culture is singular is the founding plank in the platform of white supremacists and racists EVERYWHERE across the globe.  It's nonsense, written, spoken and believed by racist trolls, who refuse to study legitimate cultural work.

Can you say that New York City has culture?  How many cultures go into making that culture.

Only racists and ignorants would say anything else.

 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

16 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

We are coming for the taco trucks, like it or not. You can eat a hot dog like a real American.

Ha, tricks on you. I’ve got a walking taco. You’ll never catch me!!!

[ummester]

5 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

I didn't say he was in Britain mate. Nor did I say that the culture these two were part of was British. Because by your definition of "values and language" British Culture isn't a thing, unless you're going to argue that in my example of the two British guys one of them isn't British I guess.

So you are an advocate for some global humanity?

British culture is a thing by my definition  - English language and common law based on an evolution from ancient cultures, through Christianity and the enlightenment, to what Britain accepts as social convention now.

I can fully accept that humanity has a common ancestry from Africa - I have no issue with the concept that all humans are genetically and potentially equal. What I argue is that, over the long run, tribes of humans spit off and both integrated and re-integrated with other sapient species across the globe. It is likely that climatic and other changes effected both sociological and civilization development during this time. It is reasonable to accept that what was a definable human culture was in a constant state of flux.

Yet, as I mentioned before, culture is a snapshot, based on history and present position. British culture is as definable as Japanese culture, or Chinese culture - based on the currently (and to some extent historically) shared ideas of linguistics and belief. Yes, there will always be outliers and variations but that does not negate that there is a general middle to the normal curve about which a given cultures language and values relate.

[ummester]

26 minutes ago, Zorral said:

The very declaration that culture is singular is the founding plank in the platform of white supremacists and racists EVERYWHERE across the globe.  It's nonsense, written, spoken and believed by racist trolls, who refuse to study legitimate cultural work.

Can you say that New York City has culture?  How many cultures go into making that culture.

Only racists and ignorants would say anything else.

 

Yep, you can try and accuse my philosophy of that if you want but I find your argument far more totalitarian.

Not once have I ever based the idea of culture on skin color - as noted previously in the threat, I am not even white.

As for New York - I have never been there - always felt too much like a hive of scum and villainy form my perspective. When human cities get too big, they are always as much a home to disease bearing rats as humans. We are meant to live in smaller populations than what our cities require to subsist. All that aside, New York, like LA, is not the US, right? Both places are the cesspools of what the US represents. I mean why else would 911 have occurred? I don't know if that was Saudis or Mossad or even the CIA - what I do know is that the twin towers were symbolic of US greed across the globe. What I understand is the symbolism, without relating to the individual human details - New York has been pinged as symbolically corrupt for a very long time. I mean, given this is a GoTs forum NY and LA are basically Kings Landing, in a symbolic sense.

[aceluby]

3 minutes ago, ummester said:

Yep, you can try and accuse my philosophy of that if you want but I find your argument far more totalitarian.

Not once have I ever based the idea of culture on skin color - as noted previously in the threat, I am not even white.

As for New York - I have never been there - always felt too much like a hive of scum and villainy form my perspective. When human cities get too big, they are always as much a home to disease bearing rats as humans. We are meant to live in smaller populations than what our cities require to subsist. All that aside, New York, like LA, is not the US, right? Both places are the cesspools of what the US represents. I mean why else would 911 have occurred? I don't know if that was Saudis or Mossad or even the CIA - what I do know is that the twin towers were symbolic of US greed across the globe. What I understand is the symbolism, without relating to the individual human details - New York has been pinged as symbolically corrupt for a very long time. I mean, given this is a GoTs forum NY and LA are basically Kings Landing, in a symbolic sense.

What are you basing this on?  Movies? 

[ummester]

2 minutes ago, aceluby said:

What are you basing this on?  Movies?  

We live in a popular culture culture. Just trying to find globally relatable terms.

But seriously, if you try to think of what cities on Earth are the most decadent, NY and LA must be pretty close to the top of most lists. I have been to LA , way back in the 90s, and everyone I met there said the place sucked and wanted to leave.