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Tyrion1991

Could Dany conquer Dorne with a Dothraki horde?

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6 minutes ago, Crona said:

I don’t know how Rome or the Mongols conquered those areas and those examples really don’t hold weight to a fantasy world. I also don’t know about those conquests so I can’t really speak to them.

‘Actually Daeron and pretty much Aegon conquered Dorne. Daeron was very crafty in using the Greenblood which is actually a weak point.  The problem was that they had difficulty holding the place because there was constant rebellions and whoever they appointed would be overthrown. 

Dorne doesn’t really have cities or towns, the only ones they have is the Greenblood and the Shadow City. It is inhospitable and the ones who live there had to adapt to the climate and uses their resources for the best they can. We don’t have enough information to show us how the Dornish were able to be so mobile during conquests but I suspect they may have a tunnel system. 

Their rivers are mobile and the Greenblood is a weak point, but the issue is that it is hard to hold a place where the people don’t want you there and you have to constantly fight them. The Martells hold Dorne by sheer loyalty, in fact I am sure many houses can defeat the Martells within Dorne. 

 

Well if we’re playing the fantasy card then Dany should have fire mages who can see the future and where the Dornish are hiding. Plus controlling the weather and summoning shadows to hunt people down who defy them. That sword cuts both ways. They could do things like quiet sandstorms and possibly even raise the dead who don’t then need to eat or drink. If magic starts coming into play then Dany is far more likely to possess the tools to crack Dorne.

If they have no cities and towns then how are they considered one of the great houses of Westeros? If the land is that inhospitable then it shouldn’t have advanced beyond nomadic camel traders similar to the Sahara desert. They should have a tiny population and be unable to Marshall or sustain a large army. Yet they have actually invaded the reach and storm lands.

Because if the dothraki take a place they have a habit of killing everyone or dragging them into slavery. If Dorne does not submit and Dany has banned slavery then that only leaves killing them. Dead men can’t rebel. You seem to believe that Dany is going to do what her ancestors did and meekly take the castles once she’s fought to secure them rather than put them to the sword. Once she does that, she controls the only parts of Dorne where people can live and settles them with Ghiscari. At that point Dany can just leave the ten thousand remaining Dornish nomads in the desert to fade into obscurity.

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6 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Well if we’re playing the fantasy card then Dany should have fire mages who can see the future and where the Dornish are hiding. Plus controlling the weather and summoning shadows to hunt people down who defy them. That sword cuts both ways. They could do things like quiet sandstorms and possibly even raise the dead who don’t then need to eat or drink. If magic starts coming into play then Dany is far more likely to possess the tools to crack Dorne.

If they have no cities and towns then how are they considered one of the great houses of Westeros? If the land is that inhospitable then it shouldn’t have advanced beyond nomadic camel traders similar to the Sahara desert. They should have a tiny population and be unable to Marshall or sustain a large army. Yet they have actually invaded the reach and storm lands.

Because if the dothraki take a place they have a habit of killing everyone or dragging them into slavery. If Dorne does not submit and Dany has banned slavery then that only leaves killing them. Dead men can’t rebel. You seem to believe that Dany is going to do what her ancestors did and meekly take the castles once she’s fought to secure them rather than put them to the sword. Once she does that, she controls the only parts of Dorne where people can live and settles them with Ghiscari. At that point Dany can just leave the ten thousand remaining Dornish nomads in the desert to fade into obscurity.

Except none of the magic in the books has done any of this. So far they have only told of vague prophecies, a shadow baby, ability to heal an arm, resurrection, and I think Mel killed an eagle with fire. So far none of them have been to pin point exact locations, or change the weather. It is a fantasy world but there are rules of magic in the story.

Well the Dornish have an entire region and there is an entire history written about their formation. From petty kings to Nymeria, the history is in the World of Ice and Fire book, I would recommend to read them for a better understanding. Basically if someone found land then they’ll declare their own, and they are proclaimed king. Dorne cannot really produce a large army and much of their regions are poor. In fact they really don’t mesh with the rest of the other  regions. They really didn’t invade the Stormlands or the Reach only bands of raiders that decided to be jerks which caused their neighbors to hate them. Either way they were always pushed back and didn’t hold those regions. 

Dorne is a large place, there is no way Dany or Dothraki would be able to kill everyone in that region. 

 

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Sure.  The Dothraki cannot be stopped.  If Dorne could feed their horses, so can the Dothraki.  The guerilla hiding tactics that the Dornish employed against the Conqueror is not going to work against the Dothraki.  The Dothraki will have no qualms setting whole Dornish towns to the flames to bring out the men who are hiding.  All the Dothraki will have to do is take control of the major ports in Dorne.  Even the Dornish cannot eat sand.  Rhaenys was too lenient on the yellow toad.  She could have punished the Dornish who stayed behind.  Dornish will can be broken.  

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Even if she somehow conquers it, she won't be able to hold it unless she'll decide to become the Queen of Dorne and Dorne only. But seeing as her goal is to conquer the whole of Westeros, at most she'll have to pass Dorne and take down as many insurgents as possible before moving on.

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Posted (edited)

Sure Dany and a Dothraki horde could conquer Dorne. Just like  Daeron did but she'll run into the same problem he did. Conquering Dorne isn't the issue, holding on to a conquered Dorne is.

Edited by Daemon The Black Dragon

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10 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Sure Dany and a Dothraki horde could conquer Dorne. Just like  Daeron did but she'll ran into the same problem he did. Conquering Dorne isn't the issue, holding on to a conquered Dorne is.

 

Why? Rome conquered Egypt and held it for centuries.

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17 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Why? Rome conquered Egypt and held it for centuries.

The same reasons Daeron l only held Dorne for 3 or 4 years after he conquered it. 

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We should also remember who is holding Dorne now... Doran, he is not that military guy, he could surrender to Dany before the conquest was even complete.

He is slow to act, and not decive enough.

 

Doran ruling, I belive Dorne could be conquered.

Oberyn ruling, I belive it cannot. He is too stuborn (wanting to keep fighting even after the sack of KL), and would keep revolting again and again.

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Posted (edited)

Unless it is a war of extermination I do not see Dany having stability in any region invaded and/or conquered.

Edited by nyser1
typo

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Posted (edited)
On 7/20/2019 at 8:51 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

A lot of people are saying that Dorne can’t be conquered and has never fallen to an invader. They said exactly the same thing about the North and then Ironborn. They said Storms End and Moat Calin couldn’t fall and they did; easily. So I really think some suspicion is needed whenever a faction claims they are invincible and can’t be conquered. Especially when Doran has already admitted Dorne exaggerates it’s strength and number of troops largely from its past reputation.

So Danys ancestor Aegon failed to conquer Dorne because they used guerilla tactics and surrendered the country. 

Now, this tactic worked wonders against a Tyrell host of knights not used to the weather and climate. Lots of heavy horse and infantry in these big columns that were easy for the Dornish to raid.

Which I can’t envisage occurring with the Dothraki and I think Dorne trying the same playbook could be disastrous. The Dothraki army is extremely mobile, consists of large amounts of light cavalry and are familiar with fighting in warm climates. They are THE definitive raiders and could chase down or even hunt the Dornish. Even IF Dany decides to check the violence of the Dothraki we see what they do to places they capture in Lhazar. When the Martells abandoned the useless and weak; the Knights of Summer didn’t kill them but the Dothraki would. Millions of Dornish would die and the Dothraki would strip the land bare. Once that happens, there won’t be any food and water; which would cause starvation. At that point they can either ask for terms or flee the country.

Also, I think it’s very likely that Dany is going to cause another great migration like Nymeria. Certainly the Dothraki and I hope also the freed slaves of Essos. If the Dornish surrender the country then she can just people it with Ghiscari and Dothraki settlements filled with people loyal to her. This won’t be just an army of conquest Dorne is fighting like with Aegon. Which opens up a possibility not available to Aegon in that she can conquer Dorne without conquering the Dornish. 

Plus Dany has at the end of ADWD went full Fire and Blood. So there isn’t going to be any slow escalation like there was with Aegon. If Dorne fights then she probably will just destroy Sunspear and any castle whilst the Dothraki pillage the countryside.

Really, Dorne would need to defeat the Dothraki in battle like the Mamlucks did to the Mongols. But, the mongols didn’t have dragons. 

Could the old playbook work? Maybe George will go there, but I think George drew inspiration from the Crusades with the Dornish war and that’s not applicable to what’s essentially a Mongol invasion. If they surrender the country then they’ll all die of hunger and thirst.

Dorne kinda was conquered once already though....the Martells were minor lords before Nymeria came, with thier help, she conquered six kingdoms and ruled over a united Dorne.

To answer the question: Yea probably, especially if she had some local support 

Edited by Back door hodor

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Posted (edited)
On 7/21/2019 at 11:00 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

But Dany would not be Nymeria. She would not marry a Martell. Then conquer the remaining rebel houses with him. Aegon failed because he had no qualms burning armies on the battlefield. But he stopped at burning cities and non-fighting people. To conquer Dorme, Daenerys will need to scorch everything. Maybe she will. If pushed by Dothrakis, red priests and sellswords... The Fire counterpart of the Ice threat. 

I thought he did scorch their castles? He just couldn't kill them all, because they ran away. The limitations of dragons will always be shown somehow.

I think the main issue is that Dany won't be able to conquer Dorne and hold it because she doesn't know the landscape, climate, history, or people and so they can use that lack of knowledge against her. Girl doesn't even know how Dorne was brought into the 7k the first time. 

 

 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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On 7/22/2019 at 9:34 PM, Andrew Yang for President said:

Sure.  The Dothraki cannot be stopped.  If Dorne could feed their horses, so can the Dothraki.  The guerilla hiding tactics that the Dornish employed against the Conqueror is not going to work against the Dothraki.  The Dothraki will have no qualms setting whole Dornish towns to the flames to bring out the men who are hiding.  All the Dothraki will have to do is take control of the major ports in Dorne.  Even the Dornish cannot eat sand.  Rhaenys was too lenient on the yellow toad.  She could have punished the Dornish who stayed behind.  Dornish will can be broken.  

:agree:

If there is a people tougher than the Dornish it is the Dothraki.  

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On 8/24/2019 at 11:53 AM, Arthur Peres said:

We should also remember who is holding Dorne now... Doran, he is not that military guy, he could surrender to Dany before the conquest was even complete.

He is slow to act, and not decive enough.

 

Doran ruling, I belive Dorne could be conquered.

Oberyn ruling, I belive it cannot. He is too stuborn (wanting to keep fighting even after the sack of KL), and would keep revolting again and again.

Oberyn won't be able to hold Dorne against the Dothraki.  He can hide out in the mountains and live off, what, lizard stew.  If the Dornish can't fight the Lannisters head on they sure as hell can't take on the Dothraki.  

The Dothraki will not have the same problems as the Targaryen expeditions of the past.  The Targaryens were dependent on their bannermen, who in turn depended on their smallfolk.  They can't stay and occupy Dorne indefinitely.  Fields have to be plowed.  They had families to come home to.  The Dothraki can occupy Dorne and wait it out for as long as needed.  

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On 8/24/2019 at 2:10 PM, The Transporter said:

That would obviously depend on the size of the horde.  Had Drogo's khalsar remained intact and she took them to Dorne, YES.

I think Dany will end up having all of the Dothraki united into one khalasar.

Which means that the Dothraki can completely conquer and overrun Dorne in a matter of weeks.

16 hours ago, Tai Pan said:

Oberyn won't be able to hold Dorne against the Dothraki.  He can hide out in the mountains and live off, what, lizard stew.  If the Dornish can't fight the Lannisters head on they sure as hell can't take on the Dothraki.  

The Dothraki will not have the same problems as the Targaryen expeditions of the past.  The Targaryens were dependent on their bannermen, who in turn depended on their smallfolk.  They can't stay and occupy Dorne indefinitely.  Fields have to be plowed.  They had families to come home to.  The Dothraki can occupy Dorne and wait it out for as long as needed.  

This is why I think Dany's invasion will be so scary and 

Dany will be completely changing everything. The Dothraki, the Ghischari and all of the other freedmen coming to Westeros with Dany have left their families and their old lives (if they even had any). They are going to need new homes and new occupations.

So unlike the conquering Westerosi armies of the place, if/when Dany sicks the Dothraki on the Dornish, the Dothraki are going to need a place to stay after. Which makes future revolts and guerrilla tactics impossible because then you are outnumbered on your own turf.

On 8/24/2019 at 5:34 PM, nyser1 said:

Unless it is a war of extermination I do not see Dany having stability in any region invaded and/or conquered.

I do...the Crownlands.

That's about it though. She is going to have to fight tooth and nail to achieve stability.

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On 7/21/2019 at 2:39 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

I know, Brans already being corrupted by the Three Eyed Crow. Jon’s on his way to becoming the Night King. Arya is eating people and has joined a Cthulhu cult. Sansa is about to murder her cousin and become the Bat lady of Harrenhal. Somebody needs to kill all the Starks and end the Children’s conspiracy to destroy humanity. If we kill all the Starks then that will cut off the magic feeding the Others return. If they are cold made flesh then they are part of that magic and have got to go. If you just kill Dany then you’ll have Ice become supreme because of Bran.

I mean it would be rather odd for Dany to be the source of all fire magic, requiring her death and yet the Ice comes from this inhuman source that can be destroyed separately to the Starks and the Children of the Forest. It’s not balance unless both the families of ice and fire die. 

Fun fact: Stark spelt backwards without the K is Rats.

These are some very good points. Well, except about the one about Arya eating people.

It almost seems as if our beloved author is bias towards Ice.

On 7/21/2019 at 6:25 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

How was Rome able to conquer North Africa?

How were the Mongols able to conquer Iran?

All of the reasons you list should have made these conquests impossible. Yet they happened. Desert regions are not impossible to conquer. If anything, the first empires arose in these regions and they are easier to conquer because the population is concentrated in cities and river valleys.

With Russia you can actually point and say “never been conquered due to harsh winter”. The same cannot be said of desert regions generally.

If the country is so harsh and inhospitable then this should be a weakness. Drone shouldn’t be able to support a large population or wage a protracted war if its like the Sahara. It shouldn’t be able to wage an effective guerilla war if it’s like Egypt because they need the tax base, food and water. Millions of people can’t just flee into the deserts and abandon the river valleys. A town dweller in Sunsoear should be as useless in the desert as a Ghiscari.

The way George describes it Dorne simultaneously has more people in it than medieval Egypt, Syria or Iraq and a similar level of wealth (making it worth conquering) but can suddenly revert to being nomadic tribes at the drop of a hat whilst still having the manpower to launch invasions into the Reach and Stormlands. Either it’s a rich country like Egypt or it’s the Sahara; George is saying it’s both. This doesn’t add up to me.

For example, if the rivers are not navigable then how is Dorne rich? How does it have towns? How can the Martells govern the country? How does an army from Sunspear cross all these impassable deserts to the boneway if they are the equivalent of the Sahara?

 

First of all, Rome never really conquered North Africa. All they had were the coasts and the Lower Nile. And they could barely hold onto that at times.

But I totally agree: GRRM seems to have made Dorne an amalgamation of Spain (military might and culture), Egypt/Syria (wealth, resources, population) and southern Algeria (geography and climate). It's a bit odd and counterintuitive but it is what it is. 

The Greenblood and the Torrentine Rivers are navigable with the Greenblood being the largest and the most important out of the two. The Greenblood is so big that Doran feels like that he could feasibly hide Dany and her armies on ships within the Greenblood.

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The supply lines would be a nightmare. And under constant harassment. There's only two viable ways in. Compare that to the abundance of accessible coastline in the north. Or the practically non existent borders of the Riverlands. The Dornish would let you make headway inland just to cut you off when you're not looking. 

The Dornish wouldn't hold castles and forts to the last man. They leave them to be occupied and then make life for the inhabitants unbearable. In-fact, for the average person who isn't accustomed to their heat, life in general is pretty unbearable as it is. 

I think it is possible to conquer them. But you'd need an ally within it's borders. That's sort of how Nymeria did it. She buddied up to the Martells. Maybe one day there'll be a conqueror who's bloody minded enough to throw wave after wave at them and eventually break them down. But that's stupid. And it would just be asking for another power to see you distracted and make their move on your lands. The best way for Dany to take Dorne would be to ally with the Yrnwoods and/or the Daynes. If not the Martells themselves, of course.  

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1 hour ago, Victor Newman said:

She can quite easily conquer Dorne with a united Dothraki people.  

The dothraki hordes would die of thirst and starvation far before it came close to conquering Dorne. They have basically no food to forage and they can't take stone castles. Good luck with that

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I guess. Conquest (and region stability) would be made much easier if she could exploit tensions between the Martells and another Dornish house. Yronwood, perhaps? She'd have to know about the tension first though.

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