Mike Dilger Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 The Theory in Outline Form: Jon Snow is a mix of Stark and Wildling His mother is Wylla Eddard tells Robert this Lord Beric's squire Ned (Edric Dayne) tells Arya this That's two independent cooroborations Wylla sounds like 'wild' Jon looks like a cross of Stark and Wildling He has a 'double helping' of stark He has 'more of the North in him' Whoever his mother is she left 'nothing of herself in him' He has no Targaryen traits No blonde hair No violet eyes No resistance to fire or heat Is not hot headed or mad Wargs wolves Ashara Dayne's child was killed by the Mountain Ashara Dayne was lady in waiting to Elia Martel, both her child and Aegon Targaryen were there at the Sack of Kings Landing The body was burned after and hard to identify, leading to a possible mix-up Young griff surfaces, supporting the idea that Elia's second child Aegon Targaryen is still alive Ashara Dayne commits suicide afterwards, and perhaps losing a child (and her brother Arthur) was enough to push her over the edge Young Griff with Jon Connington is Aegon Targaryen, not some impostor Since he wasn't killed (see bullet points above) Jon Connington always was on the Targaryen side, in Battle of the Bells, and while hiding the Young Griff Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and had a child at the Tower of Joy (See R+L=J, I concur with the R+L part) Rhaegar Targaryen sends kingsguard to protect the tower Rhaegar Targaryen names the tower the Tower of Joy Eddard Stark finds Lyanna in the tower in a bed full of blood We shall call this child "Child X". Details to come out in subsequent books. Eddard took Child X to House Dayne (Starfall) along with Arthur Dayne's sword, but then swapped it for his son Jon Snow Eddard went to House Dayne to deliver Child X and the sword Eddard found out then that Wylla got pregnant and delivered Jon Snow. Eddard had already married Catelyn, thus has to call Jon "Snow" Eddard and Wylla previously hooked up sometime around the start of Robert's Rebellion, details to come out in subsequent books Also explained in video form: https://videos.mikedilger.com/videos/watch/1e3f4068-1025-42f4-9eef-65ccd5e81d40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 49 minutes ago, Mike Dilger said: The Theory in Outline Form: Jon Snow is a mix of Stark and Wildling His mother is Wylla Eddard tells Robert this No, actually he does not. Read it carefully. 49 minutes ago, Mike Dilger said: Lord Beric's squire Ned tells Arya this He believes it, certainly. In a childs understanding of a tale they've been told by another child. 49 minutes ago, Mike Dilger said: That's two independent cooroborations No, its two similar but different versions of rumour, possibly fro the same fundamental source (Ned riding in to Starfall with Dawn, and Wylla nursing Jon). No more 'corroboration' than Cersei and Catelyn both suggesting Ashara Dayne as the mother. Or Bran 'corroborating' the story we hear from Robert about Lyanna being abducted and raped. You do realise that Robert's belief and Edric Dayne's belief are actually quite different? Robert thinks Wylla is the amazing chick that made Ned forget his honour once. Edric thinks Ned was in love with Ashara but bonking Wylla on the side. Neither Robert nor Edric have any personal experience of what they believe, both are just repeating what they've been told (I think it likely that Robert got it first from a report about Ned's trip to Starfall, then had a similar chat when they reconciled as the one we saw, where Robert makes assumptions and Ned simply doesn't correct them). Robert has explicitly never met Wylla and Edric wasn't born at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dilger Posted July 22, 2019 Author Share Posted July 22, 2019 > "... you know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?" "Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her." .... "I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."... I read that as Ned telling Robert that his bastard Jon Snow's mother is Wylla. But there are other interpretations. I fully get that it makes more sense for GRRM to start far from the truth and slowly leak information towards the real truth, and so this would be backwards revealing this so early on, so I get the motivation here. But not everything that has been assumed to be a secret to be revealed was necessarily intended by GRRM to be a secret to be revealed. Maybe some of them are just simple facts he didn't expect would be in dispute, and this only came into dispute because it contradicted R+L=J. Many people seem dead-set on R+L=J, but what I see are many handfuls of evidence against that have to be stretched or ignored in order to fit that narrative. I don't think Eddard would say "I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."... while lying to the King. That sounds like true contrition to me. You are right about Robert's and Edric's varying beliefs about Ned's relationship with Wylla. Of course they would vary, they are not first hand information. I don't see how that is relevant. Anyhow, we shall see what the Winds of Winter blows in, I'm sure more than a few mysteries will be cleared up and a few new ones will be born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dilger Posted July 22, 2019 Author Share Posted July 22, 2019 Actually I'm not dead set on Eddard being Jon's father. I'm just not at all convinced that Rhaegar is. That's the bit where it all falls down for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaedys Targaryen Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Mike Dilger said: Actually I'm not dead set on Eddard being Jon's father. I'm just not at all convinced that Rhaegar is. That's the bit where it all falls down for me. I agree with this; the biggest reason why I believe that Rhaegar is not Jon's father, is because it makes no sense that Lyanna would be unenthusiastic about marrying Robert for having fathered one child out of wedlock and then in the next breath run away with a married man with two trueborn children. I believe Lyanna is Jon's mother (they're both heavily associated with Blue Winter Roses), but someone else is Jon's father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ned's Little Girl Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 27 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said: I agree with this; the biggest reason why I believe that Rhaegar is not Jon's father, is because it makes no sense that Lyanna would be unenthusiastic about marrying Robert for having fathered one child out of wedlock and then in the next breath run away with a married man with two trueborn children. It wasn't so much because Robert had fathered a child out of wedlock; it was more that she was convinced he would not be able to remain faithful to her. 28 minutes ago, Vaedys Targaryen said: I believe Lyanna is Jon's mother (they're both heavily associated with Blue Winter Roses), but someone else is Jon's father. Then you would need to explain why Ned kept Jon's father's identity a strict secret from everyone, to the detriment of his honor (and his marriage to Catelyn, since Ned insisted upon raising Jon at Winterfell under right Catelyn's nose). Who in Westeros was more politically dangerous than Rhaegar that would require such absolute silence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TargBastard0 Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 11 hours ago, Mike Dilger said: Also explained in video form: https://videos.mikedilger.com/videos/watch/1e3f4068-1025-42f4-9eef-65ccd5e81d40 "Google Chrome is Not Allowed" - wtf dude, and im not using google chrome if you want someone to check your video fix it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dilger Posted July 22, 2019 Author Share Posted July 22, 2019 1 minute ago, bluntt said: "Google Chrome is Not Allowed" - wtf dude, and im not using google chrome if you want someone to check your video fix it LOL I forgot about that half-baked code. Sorry for the false positive and thanks for the test feedback! Should be working now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TargBastard0 Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 37 minutes ago, Mike Dilger said: LOL I forgot about that half-baked code. Sorry for the false positive and thanks for the test feedback! Should be working now. Ok, first question, how do you fight the argument coming from GRRM himself - the show runners correctly guessed who Jon Snow's mother is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dilger Posted July 22, 2019 Author Share Posted July 22, 2019 28 minutes ago, bluntt said: Ok, first question, how do you fight the argument coming from GRRM himself - the show runners correctly guessed who Jon Snow's mother is? Read those accounts carefully. In some accounts GRRM strokes his beard for a long time and then says "yeah, you got it." ("it" might mean the "rights to do the show", not "the question I asked many minutes ago"). In others, Benioff and Weiss just assumed they got it: "And we gave an answer - a shocking answer, and George at that point didn't actually say whether or not we were right or wrong. But the smile on his face - his smile was a tell and we knew we had passed the 'Wonka' test at that point, I think." Does GRRM actually say they guessed correctly? I'd be convinced if he did (and somewhat disappointed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 6 hours ago, Mike Dilger said: > "... you know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?" "Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her." .... "I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."... I read that as Ned telling Robert that his bastard Jon Snow's mother is Wylla. But there are other interpretations. Its not just an interpretation. Go back and read the whole conversation carefully. Ned does not tell Robert that his bastard's mother was Wylla. Robert asks Ned a woman's name that he's trying to think of. Robert tells Ned that Ned knows the woman he means, and then Robert (not Ned) states that the woman is Ned's bastard's mother. Ned answers with the name of the woman Robert is thinking of. Ned has not made any statement here about the woman. Robert has. Ned has merely left Robert's statement unchallenged. If you think that Ned told Robert, in this conversation, that Wylla is Jon's mother then Ned has deceived you as well as Robert - with the precise truth! Interpretation comes in elsewhere. Robert also lets us know that Ned told him this name once before (and Robert never met the woman). Interpretation comes in to what else Ned told Robert in that unseen previous conversation. Some people think that Ned must have previously told Robert a whole big story about Wylla as Jon's mother. However this idea is completely opposite to what we see from Ned throughout the books, and clashes with his otherwise consistent behaviour. Why does he avoid the subject and try so hard to change it if its a story he's already told Robert in the past? Why can't he tell it again? Nonsensical. Instead what we see from Ned is that every time the subject of Jon's mother comes up Ned gets angry and changes the subject saying the absolute minimum possible about it. Consequently, IMO it if far far more likely that the previous conversation that we didn't see went something like the one we did see. Robert makes assumptions, Ned closes the subject as fast as possible with minimum information given (that the woman's name is Wylla). So how did Robert make such an assumption? I think it is very likely that newly King Robert had a report (from Varys? Making himself useful to his new master as quickly as possible?) about Ned's trip to Starfall. Given all the other factors, what seems likely is that Ned rode in to Starfall to return Dawn, with Wylla nursing Jon (he would have needed a way to get the baby from ToJ to Starfall, and the ToJ crew would have needed a wetnurse for the baby in case anything happened to the weak and dying Lyanna - Wylla's apparent Starfall connection may indicate that Arthur Dayne arranged for her to be at ToJ, and the Ned just carried on using her with no other, nor better, option available). The whole Wylla thing is psychologically perfect for Robert. Robert knows Ned is far to deeply honourable to have dishonoured Ashara, a noblewoman, and ruined her life. But a common girl? Whose life he can then improve? He can believe that, and wants to, because it takes Ned off the pedestal of perfection that stands in opposition to Robert's own moral character and allows Robert to feel a little bit better about his own slatternly behaviour - after all, even the damnably perfect, stick up his arse, never-the-boy-you-were Ned slipped up once. 6 hours ago, Mike Dilger said: I fully get that it makes more sense for GRRM to start far from the truth and slowly leak information towards the real truth, and so this would be backwards revealing this so early on, so I get the motivation here. But not everything that has been assumed to be a secret to be revealed was necessarily intended by GRRM to be a secret to be revealed. Maybe some of them are just simple facts he didn't expect would be in dispute, and this only came into dispute because it contradicted R+L=J. Sorry, not sure what the point of this is. I don't think we should automatically assume anything be true, or false, but examine how each element fits into the whole. 6 hours ago, Mike Dilger said: Many people seem dead-set on R+L=J, but what I see are many handfuls of evidence against that have to be stretched or ignored in order to fit that narrative. There is no good evidence against it, only terribly weak mis-evidence. As I demonstrated above (you misread what Ned actually said to Robert) and below. 6 hours ago, Mike Dilger said: I don't think Eddard would say "I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."... while lying to the King. That sounds like true contrition to me. Sadness I think, not contrition (which means he'd choose to do it differently if he had the chance). You assume because Ned is truly saddened by his lies, it means that he really did dishonour Catelyn, but you neglect the fact that by allowing everyone to believe Jon is his bastard he actually did dishonour Catelyn - not physically (she herself thinks that that would be forgiveable given the circumstances), but emotionally in effectively telling the world he dishonoured her - perception becoming reality. 6 hours ago, Mike Dilger said: You are right about Robert's and Edric's varying beliefs about Ned's relationship with Wylla. Of course they would vary, they are not first hand information. I don't see how that is relevant. Its only relevant because you claimed that they were two corroborating sources. I point out that they are actually contradictory, and we are not at all sure they are independent. I for one think they both come from the 'fact' (I think its likely to be a fact) that Ned rode in to Starfall with Wylla and Jon. Starfall people therefore think Wylla is the mother, and Robert got a report about that visit so he also thinks Wylla is the mother. Notice also that the Starfall story (Edric's) is clearly not correct. We know Ned's character, and we know from Robert's comments and a few other things that he was always that honourable. Its not possible that Ned was in love with Ashara and bonking Wylla on the side. All that really demonstrates is that the Starfall story is born of ignorance (as are most of the stories floating around actually, since Ned isn't a talker, nor is HR, and everyone else who actually knows is dead). Not a corroboration of anything. 6 hours ago, Mike Dilger said: Anyhow, we shall see what the Winds of Winter blows in, I'm sure more than a few mysteries will be cleared up and a few new ones will be born. Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dilger Posted July 22, 2019 Author Share Posted July 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, corbon said: Its not just an interpretation. You are ascribing meaning to what Ned meant when he said "Her name was Wylla" beyond the words that GRRM wrote. It's your interpretation. I've re-read it with your interpretation in mind and it works, but I've re-read it with my interpretation in mind and it also works. Therefore it can be interpreted multiple ways. I in fact held your interpretation for years, so I'm not unfamiliar with it. I'm not saying that Ned said explicitly that Wylla is Jon's mother. I'm saying it is one possible interpretation of what he meant. 7 minutes ago, corbon said: Some people think that Ned must have previously told Robert a whole big story about Wylla as Jon's mother. I'm not one of those people. You can save those arguments for those folk. 7 minutes ago, corbon said: Why does he avoid the subject and try so hard to change it if its a story he's already told Robert in the past? Why can't he tell it again? Nonsensical. Because it makes him feel bad. He was dishonorable. Robert relishes the idea of sleeping with all the ladies, but Ned doesn't. 7 minutes ago, corbon said: There is no good evidence against it, only terribly weak mis-evidence. As I demonstrated above (you misread what Ned actually said to Robert) and below. I don't think you've actually demonstrated anything here except arrogance. Why don't you address why Jon Snow has no Targaryen traits? 7 minutes ago, corbon said: You assume because Ned is truly saddened by his lies... Please try to accurately represent what I'm saying, not what other people might have argued in the past. I think Ned feels guilt more strongly that most and is feeling guilty here (not sadness) and that he is not lying. 7 minutes ago, corbon said: Its only relevant because you claimed that they were two corroborating sources. I point out that they are actually contradictory, and we are not at all sure they are independent. It's fair to argue that they are not independent. But the evidence for that has to be more than a long series of speculations. But it's not fair to argue that they are contradictory. Some subparts of their claims may contradict, but other subparts cooroborate. You can't tar the entire issue with one brush as contradictory. The part that cooroborates is the critical part, that Ned and Wylla hooked up. 7 minutes ago, corbon said: I for one think they both come from the 'fact' (I think its likely to be a fact) that Ned rode in to Starfall with Wylla and Jon. Starfall people therefore think Wylla is the mother, and Robert got a report about that visit so he also thinks Wylla is the mother. Why do you hold the theory that Ned brought Wylla to Starfall? Is there evidence you can site? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted July 22, 2019 Share Posted July 22, 2019 5 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said: I agree with this; the biggest reason why I believe that Rhaegar is not Jon's father, is because it makes no sense that Lyanna would be unenthusiastic about marrying Robert for having fathered one child out of wedlock and then in the next breath run away with a married man with two trueborn children. R+L=J can include any scenario in which Jon was born to Lyanna and Rhaegar. It doesn't require Jon to have been born to a consensual relationship between them, though there are obviously many that think that most likely. That said, Lyanna is human, and was 12-16 when she was betrothed to Robert and later abducted by or rode off with Rhaegar. She is more than capable of being hypocritical, and making excuses for why it is different with Rhaegar, or just changing her mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbon Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 24 minutes ago, Mike Dilger said: You are ascribing meaning to what Ned meant when he said "Her name was Wylla" beyond the words that GRRM wrote. It's your interpretation. I've re-read it with your interpretation in mind and it works, but I've re-read it with my interpretation in mind and it also works. Therefore it can be interpreted multiple ways. I in fact held your interpretation for years, so I'm not unfamiliar with it. Its very simple fact. Robert asked one question. He expanded and expounded on that question, but Ned answered Robert's question. Anything else is adding things that are not in the text. 24 minutes ago, Mike Dilger said: I'm not saying that Ned said explicitly that Wylla is Jon's mother. I'm saying it is one possible interpretation of what he meant. Its a semantic error, not a possible interpretation. Ned did not tell Robert that Wylla was Jon;s mother. Period. Fact. Simple. 24 minutes ago, Mike Dilger said: I'm not one of those people. You can save those arguments for those folk. Just explaining where I'm coming from. 24 minutes ago, Mike Dilger said: Because it makes him feel bad. He was dishonorable. Robert relishes the idea of sleeping with all the ladies, but Ned doesn't. Not remotely good enough. We are talking about the way Ned shut down Catelyn when she asked about Ashara, as well as this conversation with Robert and perhaps even his abruptness with Cersei when she brought it up (he went from "I shall wear that as a badge of honour", dryly, to "listen up and listen hard (sic)" ). Its also not just feeling bad. He gets angry. Quote "You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours?(1) Becca? (2) No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? (3) No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? (4)You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"(5) "Her name was Wylla," (6)Ned replied with cool courtesy (7), "and I would sooner not speak of her."(8) "Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like (9) …" Ned's mouth tightened in anger. (10) "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me.(11) I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."(12) "Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn." "I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child." "You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed." He slapped a hand on his knee. "Well, I'll not press you if you feel so strong (13)about it, though I swear, at times you're so prickly(14) you ought to take the hedgehog as your sigil." 1) underlined, the question Robert asked. 2) Robert tries t answer himself, fails. 3) Again 4) Again. Still no response from Ned 5) Robert makes a statement that expands his question, but its still the original question. 6) Ned answers the question 7) with cool courtesy. This would be appropriate is it were merely uncomfortable for him because of his behaviour, but is still a story he has told Robert before. Ie not part of a secret. 8) Ned warns Robert off topic explicitly, still in the cool politeness stage 9) Robert indicates to us that he never actually met Wylla 10) Ned gets angry. This is not appropriate is if the King is merely probing an sad truth that Ned has explained in the past 11) Ned warns Robert off again, this time with an appeal to their bond. 12) Ned gives an excuse for his behavior - which is true, but both misleading and insufficient for a subject to be rude to his king over 13 Robert acknowledges that Ned has strong feelings 14) and complains that they are a bit unreasonable (which is true, except Robert misunderstands why Ned's feelings are so strong) 24 minutes ago, Mike Dilger said: I don't think you've actually demonstrated anything here except arrogance. Gee thanks. You'r the one who claimed there was evidence against R+L=J. The two examples you gave were both bad, and I showed you why. I can't explain the others unless you bring them up. 24 minutes ago, Mike Dilger said: Why don't you address why Jon Snow has no Targaryen traits? First because its a lme point - many Targaryens don't have 'Targaryen' traits, and where he has Lyanna's traits he can't have Rhaegar's. Secondly because of course the hidden prince trope (which GRRM is clearly subverting if he is using it) means that the hidden Prince can't have overtly Princely traits. Thirdly because its dubious at best, wrong at worst. I'll just add some links rather than laying everything out, but the short version is that Jon does have some physical traits that appear to match Targaryens and very definitely has non-physical traits that match Rhaegar in particular. https://www.quora.com/What-character-traits-did-Jon-Snow-take-after-Rhaegar-if-any https://asoiafuniversity.tumblr.com/post/136281388160/do-you-see-any-targaryen-traits-in-jon-in 24 minutes ago, Mike Dilger said: Please try to accurately represent what I'm saying, not what other people might have argued in the past. I think Ned feels guilt more strongly that most and is feeling guilty here (not sadness) and that he is not lying. Sorry - since you said contrition, and that was clearly wrong, I did my best to interpret. I happen to agree on both counts. What Ned feels most here is guilt, and that he is not lying. 24 minutes ago, Mike Dilger said: It's fair to argue that they are not independent. But the evidence for that has to be more than a long series of speculations. I didn't actually argue that they were not independent. I pointed out that you were assuming they were (when you claimed they corroborated each other), when we could not, and showed a more than plausible scenario where they are in fact directly related. 24 minutes ago, Mike Dilger said: But it's not fair to argue that they are contradictory. Some subparts of their claims may contradict, but other subparts cooroborate. You can't tar the entire issue with one brush as contradictory. The part that cooroborates is the critical part, that Ned and Wylla hooked up. If you are going to claim corroboration then you need to do much much better. Remember, what you are doing is showing why x theory is better than y theory. Its not enough to say 'two people both think they hooked up', corroboration! Heck, by that standard Bran corroborates Robert's abduction and rape story and does it far more consistently. We have far far more 'corroborations' by that standard of a N+A=J narrative. 24 minutes ago, Mike Dilger said: Why do you hold the theory that Ned brought Wylla to Starfall? Is there evidence you can site? Its a combination of many things. Note we are talking evidence, not proof. 1. ToJ + Ned's other memories and statements indicate Lyanna died at ToJ some time after the fight. 2. "Bed of Blood" and other clues show Lyanna almost certainly had a child before she died. 3. Before ToJ, there is no indication of a bastard. After ToJ there is. 4. Pretty much everyone except Robert and Starfall thinks Ashara was the most likely mother - because of the suicide after Ned was there, and then Ned having a bastard. 2+2=4 for them. 5. Starfall (and Robert) "knows' differently. They 'know' Ashara was not the mother, Wylla was. Why? What information do they have that is different from what others have? Well, Starfall probably knows Ashara's story in considerable detail. They know for sure she wasn't the mother even though that would look much better for them if she was, which means she probably wasn't pregnant leading up to Ned's arrival and didn't deliver her child around that time (instead, much earlier, having been disgraced at Harrenhal after getting pregnant then, way way way before the timeline for Ned's baby). So why do they think Wylla is the mother? 6. Ned required a wetnurse for Jon, in the south. A wetnurse accompanied Jon to the North, and was there when Cat arrived with Robb. But there is no hint of her at Winterfell in the books. So she must have left Winterfell 7. Wylla was a wetnurse at Starfall in later years, nursing Edric. How/why did she get that job? And be 'known' as Jon's Snow's wetnurse (milk brothers)/mother as well. Clearly she was Jon's nurse, if not mother. 8. Wherever Jon came from, Ned needed a wetnurse to move him around. Which was Wylla. If Jon came from ToJ Ned needed a wetnurse to get him to Starfall. And a wetnurse to get him from Starfall to Winterfell. And a wetnurse at Winterfell. One or all of those is Wylla. I don't see any reason to change. 9. The ToJ crew (KG) would have needed to prepare for Lyanna's baby. Who would be a royal family member and by the end, possibly heir to the throne. Such prep includes a weturse - Lyanna may be sick or weak (or dead) after the baby is born and they need to be prepared. 10. Arthur Dayne is from Starfall. He could have used his contacts to get a reliable wetnurse for Lyanna's child. Wylla, effectively hired by Arthur, being at ToJ, covers everything perfectly. She even covers the "they" who found Ned with Lyanna dead in his arms (given HR was supposedly the only other survivor of the fight, but we need at least one more non-combatant at ToJ to get a "they". She is hired/sourced/found by Arthur to be wetnurse and possible midwife/cook/cleaner/other at ToJ for the KG and Lyanna hiding there. After the fight Ned needs a wetnurse, she's there, and already loyal to Jon, not Robert or any other Rebel. He therefore takes her and Jon to Starfall to return Dawn before shipping back to the North. Starfall (and Robert's speculative report) therefore sees Ned ride in to Starfall with Wylla and Jon, hence their theory. Wylla and Jon go on to Winterfell, getting there before Cat and Robb. Ned calls in on Robert on the way where they reconcile over Lyanna's death and Ned must give Robert Wylla's name. But Robert doesn't get to meet Wylla. Once Jon is weaned, Wylla returns to Starfall (not her climate, either literally in the north or emotionally with Cat) where her faithful service is rewarded with a job there, later nursing Edric. Possibly Ned asked for here to be cared for (having returned Dawn, and not actually destroyed Ashara, Ned is practically a god to the Daynes - can you imagine how important him giving back that sword is to their House!) Since this narrative fits every known fact and tiny unexplained details (such as "they"), and fits completely with what we know about the characters and motivations of people involved, I think its a fair bet to being close to right, even if almost certainly it is wrong in some detail(s) or other. So for now, I'm going with "Ned rode in to Starfall with Wylla and Jon". New data in Winds of Winter could utterly change everything though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dilger Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 (stupid forum editor...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dilger Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 I'm glad you numbered those phrases corbon. In (6): "Her name was Wylla," you say "Ned answers the question" that was underlined at (1): "what was her name, that common girl of yours?" All I'm saying is that it is possible that in (6): "Her name was Wylla," Ned was responding to (5): "You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?" even though I'll admit that (5) is not technically phrased as a question, neither of us can honestly rule out that possibility. Neither gods nor devils have given either of us divine omnipotence to rule conclusively whether or not Ned was being pedantic (unless you are GRRM, but I doubt it). But this should have been obvious in my previous posts and yet you persist. So I'm not going to address this issue again, I'm quite settled on my view (that it could be interpreted multiple ways) and I don't really care if you wish to believe otherwise. So ... onward. As for the hidden prince trope... that is pure speculation. Evidential strength goes something along these lines: a) If a POV character sees or experiences something in real time as the chapter unfolds, that is strong evidence. b) If a character remembers something, that's a bit weaker, especially if worded in a way that is hard to interpret conclusively. c) If a character says something about their direct experience, that's weaker (they might lie). d) If a character says something that was hearsay, thats even weaker still. e) If a character dreams something, that's even weaker f) If it's not even in the books at all, and people are just speculating that is possible, that's the weakest stuff of all. The idea that Jon looks like a Stark and not a Targaryen because GRRM was subverting the Hidden Prince trope and that he was hiding Targaryen traits to not make it obvious... that falls squarely in category (f), weak sauce. It is useful for plastering over the cracks in a theory, as a way of explaining how the theory can't be ruled out, but there is no structural strength behind it. I've considered that Targaryen traits might be fairly recessive ones, and Stark traits fairly dominant, but when I survey the people with their hair and eye colors, that's not borne out very well. I haven't done the math, and perhaps I will, but it's not very clear. Of course he might have, by happenstance, just missed all the Targaryen traits during meiosis. But that's a stretch, and not a really good plot device. As for other traits potentially being Targaryen (being thinner, behavioural, etc), I'm not convinced the associations are any better than random. Again, I haven't run the numbers. As for the question about Wylla's travels, I will have to look into that more later. Thanks for presenting that case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colvinus Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 If GRRM makes Jon a bastard through and through then that presents more LotR parallels in Jon's storyline than there already are. Frodo = unassuming rando that saves the day because he's determined to do good. Jon (if a bastard) = unassuming sort-of-rando (warg/lord's son) who saves the day because he's determined to do good. Samwell ~ Samwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 Rhaegar's first child Rhaenys favored Elia Martell, just as his child with Lyanna favored her. Aegon V's first child Duncan favored Betha Blackwood. Rhaella's child Steffon almost certainly favored Ormund Baratheon. Maekar's first child Daeron likely favored Dyanna Dayne. Daeron II's first child Baelor favored Mariah Martell. Aegon IV's bastard Aegor favored Barba Bracken. Rhaenyra's eldest sons favored Harwin Strong. Aemon's daughter Rhaenys favored Jocelyn Baratheon. Alyssa's daughter Jocelyn favored Rogar Baratheon. Aerys clearly favored his mother rather than his rumored father Aerion Targaryen. Known Targaryen history is full of children of Targaryens who favored their non-Targ parent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TargBastard0 Posted July 23, 2019 Share Posted July 23, 2019 8 hours ago, Mike Dilger said: Read those accounts carefully. In some accounts GRRM strokes his beard for a long time and then says "yeah, you got it." ("it" might mean the "rights to do the show", not "the question I asked many minutes ago"). In others, Benioff and Weiss just assumed they got it: "And we gave an answer - a shocking answer, and George at that point didn't actually say whether or not we were right or wrong. But the smile on his face - his smile was a tell and we knew we had passed the 'Wonka' test at that point, I think." Does GRRM actually say they guessed correctly? I'd be convinced if he did (and somewhat disappointed). Yes he does: Quote Can it really have been more than a decade since my manager Vince Gerardis set up a meeting at the Palm in LA, and I sat down for the first time with David Benioff and D.B. Weiss for a lunch that lasted well past dinner? I asked them if they knew who Jon Snow’s mother was. Fortunately, they did. That was how it started. It ended last night. Source: http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/20/an-ending/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dilger Posted July 23, 2019 Author Share Posted July 23, 2019 I concede this theory. Bael's proof of recessive genes and Bluntt's GRRM reference are plenty enough for me. And the following statistics are quite convincing too: Wylla is mentioned only twice. Ashara is mentioned in only 5 chapters Lyanna is mentioned in 23 chapters (26, but some were a ship, some another girl) Prince Rhaegar Targaryen is mentioned in about 49 chapters (ignoring othe Rhaegars). Clearly the story is not about Wylla or Ashara Dayne in any significant way. And Lyanna and Rhaegar are clearly very important often mentioned characters. So fine. It was fun for a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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