Lord Tywin Frequented Brothels (Theory)

[Winter prince]

I do a lot of travel and have started listening to ASOIAF on Audible.  Excellently narrated by Roy Dotrice, even if I don't agree with the way he pronounced everything.  But I noticed something I hadn't in other reads.

Tyrion III has the evidence to the theory:

When Tyrion asks how the brothel came to have a secret entrance, Varys explains that the tunnel was dug for another Hand who would not enter the house openly.  I will add the actual quote when I grab my book but Varys states that the Hand's honor wouldn't allow for him to be seen entering a brothel.

Tywin's true secret that he lays with whores if found out by Tyrion later when he encounters Shae in his father's bed chamber.  But I believe this tunnel was placed for Tywin when he was the Hand for Aerys so that he can maintain his perfect image but give in to his needs.

[hnv]

pretty much accepted as a fact at this point

[rotting sea cow]

2 hours ago, hnv said:

pretty much accepted as a fact at this point

Indeed. Even one of the prostitutes (Marie?) working at Alayaya might be Tywin's bastard.

 

[The Sunland Lord]

I believe it is Tywin too, but one word makes me doubt it: "honour". Was ever Tywin burdened with honour? More like, pride. 

[John Suburbs]

3 hours ago, Winter prince said:

I do a lot of travel and have started listening to ASOIAF on Audible.  Excellently narrated by Roy Dotrice, even if I don't agree with the way he pronounced everything.  But I noticed something I hadn't in other reads.

Tyrion III has the evidence to the theory:

When Tyrion asks how the brothel came to have a secret entrance, Varys explains that the tunnel was dug for another Hand who would not enter the house openly.  I will add the actual quote when I grab my book but Varys states that the Hand's honor wouldn't allow for him to be seen entering a brothel.

Tywin's true secret that he lays with whores if found out by Tyrion later when he encounters Shae in his father's bed chamber.  But I believe this tunnel was placed for Tywin when he was the Hand for Aerys so that he can maintain his perfect image but give in to his needs.

This is the most likely explanation, but we cannot yet rule out other possibilities. Varys never says exactly when the tunnel was dug, and the building is quite old -- the turret on top suggests it was some kind of defensive post before it became a brothel. So the Hand in question could have lived some time ago.

Even during Varys's time in King's Landing, there have been multiple Hands besides Tywin: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelstead, Rossart and Jon Arryn. Of these, I think we can rule out Rossart and Connington -- Rossart was only Hand for two weeks and JonCon was out warring most of the time. Chelstead only served for a few months as well, but before that he was Master of Coin, so it's possible he commissioned the tunnel as MoC and completed it as Hand.

Likewise, Merryweather was Hand for nearly two years -- plenty of time to get it done. And I don't think we can entirely rule out Jon Arryn, who may have had a predilection for young flesh that didn't nag him all the time.

[The Map Guy]

I'm a believer in the Aerys + Joanna = Jaime & Cersei theory.

TWOIAF suggests that Aerys & Joanna were not in the same city during the twins conception in 265AC ... but doesn't mean Joanna couldn't have secretly came to King's Landing. (Besides, where in TWOIAF suggest that Tywin & Joanna were in the same city in 265 AC?)

I believe this tunnel is where Tywin sneaked off to meet Joanna hiding in the brothel, and the actual "honor" was making sure Aerys doesn't find out she is in town.

But too bad, Aerys probably found out eventually ... A+J=J&C.

I guess Fire & Blood Part II would shed some more light about Joanna's whereabouts in 265 AC ... perhaps this secret tunnel too.

 

And I only came up with this idea because Ned & Catelyn secretly met at a brothel in King's Landing ... almost reflecting Tywin & Joanna.

[Winter prince]

23 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I believe it is Tywin too, but one word makes me doubt it: "honour". Was ever Tywin burdened with honour? More like, pride. 

That is an interesting point... He definitely was more pride than honor

[Winter prince]

6 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I'm a believer in the Aerys + Joanna = Jaime & Cersei theory.

TWOIAF suggests that Aerys & Joanna were not in the same city during the twins conception in 265AC ... but doesn't mean Joanna couldn't have secretly came to King's Landing. (Besides, where in TWOIAF suggest that Tywin & Joanna were in the same city in 265 AC?)

I believe this tunnel is where Tywin sneaked off to meet Joanna hiding in the brothel, and the actual "honor" was making sure Aerys doesn't find out she is in town.

But too bad, Aerys probably found out eventually ... A+J=J&C.

I guess Fire & Blood Part II would shed some more light about Joanna's whereabouts in 265 AC ... perhaps this secret tunnel too.

 

And I only came up with this idea because Ned & Catelyn secretly met at a brothel in King's Landing ... almost reflecting Tywin & Joanna.

This is quite the interesting theory... This is also the first I've seenof A+J=J&C versus A+J=T

[Universal Sword Donor]

Man I do not like that Aerys is the dad theory.

But yes it's safe to say most people, if they know of the tunnel, think Tywin is the Hand in question.

[BalerionTheCat]

The tunnel was quite possibly dug for Tywin.

12 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I believe this tunnel is where Tywin sneaked off to meet Joanna hiding in the brothel, and the actual "honor" was making sure Aerys doesn't find out she is in town.

But what's the point of visiting his wife in a Brothel? Any other house would suffice (or a different house each time).

12 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I'm a believer in the Aerys + Joanna = Jaime & Cersei theory.

None the less, either Tywin went to Casterly Rock. Or she came to KL. Tywin was the Hand. I imagine it was not common for him (or any Hand) to leave KL. Joanna going to KL is more likely. If so, either man could then be the father.

I'm also convinced of A+J=C&J. It has sufficient evidences for me. Cersei and Joffrey mental state, much like some Targaryens. The Valonqar word and Jaime, Cersei's only true brother. Aerys last command to Jaime: "Bring me your father’s head, if you are no traitor."

[cpg2016]

7 hours ago, Winter prince said:

That is an interesting point... He definitely was more pride than honor

But I'm not sure Tywin would know the difference.  He often confuses "the honor of his House" with his overweening pride in the Lannister name and Lannister supremacy

[The Map Guy]

5 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Man I do not like that Aerys is the dad theory.

Why not? Too many Targaryens fighting for the Iron Throne in the story?

• Robert Baratheon/Targaryen - Robert's Rebellion - Civil War in Westeros
• Daenerys true-born Targaryen - Reclamation of Westeros
• fAegon Blackfyre(probably)/Targaryen - Another Blackfyre Rebellion (probably) - Foreign Invasion of Westeros
• Cersei, Jaime, Joffery, Myrcella, Tommen Lannister/Targaryen - Infiltration of the Westerosi Throne (current winner)
• The Dark Sister Rebellion (with the Others) Stark/Targaryen - Magical Invasion of Westeros

 

4 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

But what's the point of visiting his wife in a Brothel? Any other house would suffice (or a different house each time).

I guess. But its probably safer going to a brothel to avoid suspicion.

If Tywin went to a house, Aerys' spies would follow him and question why he went in.
If Tywin went to a brothel, Aerys' spies would just assume Tywin wanted some action.

Or perhaps Tywin has a trustworthy pimp and the pimp was able to hide Joanna in the brothel (like Littlefinger/Cat/Ned/brothel story). But I guess with A+J=J&C, the pimp didn't hide her well enough. We all know pimpin ain't easy.

 

Anyways, its the same story with the Night's Watch & Moles Town. When Jon deserted, he and the rest of the group returned to Castle Black with an alibi (if needed) of going to Moles Town for the girls.

Also Tyrion brought Shae to King's Landing, even though he was not suppose to. He was trying to hide her from Tywin ... but in the end, Tywin slept with Shae anyways.
For A+J=J&C, Tywin brought Joanna to King's Landing, even though he was not suppose to. He was trying to hide her from Aerys ... but in the end, Aerys slept with Joanna anyways. 

I don't think A+J=T, but who knows ... I just know GRRM writes in circles, and everything points to Tyrion being Tywin's son.

 

4 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

None the less, either Tywin went to Casterly Rock. Or she came to KL. Tywin was the Hand. I imagine it was not common for him (or any Hand) to leave KL. Joanna going to KL is more likely. If so, either man could then be the father.

Well if Tywin went to Casterly Rock to conceive with Joanna in 265AC, then the A+J=J&C theory is dead. Luckily, nothing in TWOIAF suggested that Tywin was in Casterly Rock in 265 AC. He was there just for the twins' birth the following year. And you're right about King's Landing, either Tywin or Aerys could be the father.

Maury Povich: In the case of Jaime & Cersei ... Tywin ... you ARE NOT the father!
Tywin: NOoooOOOOo!!
Maury Povich: In the case of Tyrion ... Tywin ... you ARE the father!
Tywin: NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

I am bias, I do want Jaime to be Aerys' son. I do believe it will mean something in the future ... and we don't need Maury to prove it ... it will be proven in a cooler way in ADOS. 

4 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

The Valonqar word and Jaime, Cersei's only true brother

O wow thanks. I never saw it that way. If Tywin+Joanna=Jaime& Cersei ... why did GRRM use a Valyrian word for Maggy/Cersei prophecy? Why George?

[The Ned's Little Girl]

17 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

And I only came up with this idea because Ned & Catelyn secretly met at a brothel in King's Landing ... almost reflecting Tywin & Joanna.

But it wasn't Ned who hid Catelyn in the brothel - that was Littlefinger who did that.

Even if Tywin needed a place to hide his wife from the king (a huge if), why would he use a brothel? Doesn't seem like his style. He's not poor; he could just buy a house and have her stay there.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Dancy is Tywin's bastard. 

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

8 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

I'm also convinced of A+J=C&J. It has sufficient evidences for me. Cersei and Joffrey mental state, much like some Targaryens. The Valonqar word and Jaime, Cersei's only true brother. Aerys last command to Jaime: "Bring me your father’s head, if you are no traitor."

Madness can occur in any family and GRRM has said that Joffrey was just a spoiled teeange boy who was given too much power and not enough restrictions. When Cersei and Jaime start having dragon dreams, or showing any actual Targaryen tendencies beyond incest, then there'll be a case for this.

Jaime didn't cut Aerys' head off. If he had, I'd give more credence to that line of thinking.

There is far more in the way of clues for Tyrion to have Targ blood than C&J: the deformity, the heterochromia, the preference for burned meat, the mixed black and white blond hair, the dragon obsession, the reading (admittedly that one's a stretch, but name one Lannister known for their love of the written word). Then there's the fact that GRRM added to the TWOIAF that Joanna went to KL for a celebration the year before Tyrion was born, while she had been at CR for three years when C&J were born.

Yes, Tywin probably was the Hand of the Tunnel. And if Joanna was visiting him and found it, and where it lead, I wouldn't be surprised if she decided to get a little of her own back, resulting in Tyrion and in Tywin not knowing whether the kid was his, and blaming himself and his own whoring for killing Joanna--but projecting all of that onto Tyrion instead of dealing with it.

Realistically though, all three are probably Tywin's. The potential clues are to throw us off, and maybe to cause interesting false ideas in the characters that color their interactions with one another.

 

[CandleWisps]

I'm not sure I buy into this one, if only because it has been strongly established that Tywin's feelings for Joanna seemed genuine (as far as a warm feeling can be genuine for Tywin) and deep. He was never the "same" after her death, never smiled after it, Tywin was "ruled" by Lady Joanna, etc. Also, the fact that he never took a second wife to create more heirs, especially after Jaime joined the KG and his well-known disgust with the idea of having Tyrion inherit CR, speaks to his depth of affection for her.

Regardless of him fulfilling his "needs" with Shae or any other whore a good while after her death, I don't see him being the Hand to create the tunnel to spare his "honor" (pride), as I genuinely don't believe he would have been with whores during his tenure under Aerys--even with Joanna being away at CR most of the time to be kept away from the King.

Might it possibly have been one of the Targ Hand's? We know for a fact there were a number of Targ Kings who were never shy about their frequents to brothels, or even having their "dalliances" just brought straight to the castle, but some of the Targaryen Hand's might have operated differently under the rule of their brothers/nephews/uncles/etc. I can't seem to recall who was Hand under Baelor, but that would certainly have been a Hand who wouldn't want something like that to get out

[BalerionTheCat]

6 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

I do believe it will mean something in the future

For Jaime, I don't know.

But I had this theory in the past, before discovering A+J=C&J.: The Red Keep cat mystery. 

Could be simpler now. Because Aegon V wife was Betha Blackwood. Rhaenys will be the 3rd head.
The last drop of evidence is both the cat and Myrcella missing an ear.

 

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Madness can occur in any family

Not definite a proof. But a strong clue none the less. Give me examples, Father/Mother and Son/Daughter beheaving like crazed Targaryens. 

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

the preference for burned meat

LOL Tyrion clues are weak. Every smart guy would want a dragon. Particularly one abused and wanting revenge.

Other evidences? I didn't use Tyrion references, for Cersei et Joffrey:

Quote

Cersei is as gentle as King Maegor, as selfless as Aegon the Unworthy, as wise as Mad Aerys

Quote

Not Robert the Second," Tyrion said. "Aerys the Third." 

Or the fire, Tyrion feared the Wildfire, Cersei was mad with it. Burning the Tower of the Hand:

Quote

It is beautiful, she thought, as beautiful as Joffrey, when they laid him in my arms....

Cersei felt too alive for sleep. The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve. "The flames are so pretty. I want to watch them for a while."

Or Genna's words:

Quote

"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna’s breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there’s some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak ... but Tyrion is Tywin’s son, not you. I said so once to your father’s face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."

Not literal, but... Jaime has Lanister blood. But Tyrion is the ONE 100% Tywin"s. And sometimes words have more meaning that the teller intended.

[The Map Guy]

15 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

But it wasn't Ned who hid Catelyn in the brothel - that was Littlefinger who did that.

Even if Tywin needed a place to hide his wife from the king (a huge if), why would he use a brothel? Doesn't seem like his style. He's not poor; he could just buy a house and have her stay there.

Well Catelyn came to King's Landing on her own will, but Littlefinger found out and help arrange the secret meeting in the brothel for Ned.
Perhaps Joanna came to King's Landing on her own will too.

And less suspicion of going to a brothel. If Tywin was followed by Aerys' spies through the secret tunnels and ended up at someone's home ... it would implant suspicion or treasonous thoughts in Aerys' head. If Tywin was followed through the secret tunnels and end up at a brothel, the reasonable assumption is that Tywin just wanted to relieve himself, but would not show his face publicly.

14 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Dancy is Tywin's bastard. 

Maybe ... but only after Joanna's death. Who knows, maybe we'll never find out.
Going through the comments, I saw the Charles Dance = Tywin comment ... haha its funny because its true. Tywin is probably based off a Charles Dance character from the 1990s. IIRC, Charles Dance didn't audition for the role, he was asked to play it, probably a personal request by GRRM. GRRM probably felt like he hit the jackpot with Charles Dance, and GRRM personally added the extra scenes with him & Arya at Harrenhal/Gods Eye in GoT. In this movie, Charles Dance's single eye explodes in the end! Sorry for the spoiler.

12 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

When Cersei and Jaime start having dragon dreams, or showing any actual Targaryen tendencies beyond incest

I didn't know dragon dreams were a criteria for being a Targaryen. I don't recall Jon Snow having any

11 hours ago, CandleWisps said:

I'm not sure I buy into this one, if only because it has been strongly established that Tywin's feelings for Joanna seemed genuine (as far as a warm feeling can be genuine for Tywin) and deep. He was never the "same" after her death, never smiled after it, Tywin was "ruled" by Lady Joanna, etc

Tywin's deep love for Joanna could compel him to dig a secret tunnel to see her. I'm sure he can't stand the separation between King's Landing & Casterly Rock. And with Tywin's 'deep love' and 'honor' ... he CANNOT let Aerys find out.

10 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

But I had this theory in the past, before discovering A+J=C&J.: The Red Keep cat mystery. 

I think 'Balerion' the tomcat is more of an Easter Egg, but in my head canon ... it is a wordplay for Jaime. The Arya connection is that Jaime & Arya are both left handed. I believe 'Balerion' is the wordplay of 'Bear' & 'Lion' ... where 'Bear' is Longclaw wielded with a left hand, and 'Lion' is Jaime. 'Tomcat' is related Jaime, since tomcats = male lions. And we all know George loves the football team New York Jets! 'Tomcat' is the fighter jet F-14 ... like the ones in the movie Top Gun! 

[CandleWisps]

31 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Tywin's deep love for Joanna could compel him to dig a secret tunnel to see her. I'm sure he can't stand the separation between King's Landing & Casterly Rock. And with Tywin's 'deep love' and 'honor' ... he CANNOT let Aerys find out.

I'd say the only thing that makes me doubt this is timing. If Joanna was coming to KL often enough to require a whole separate tunnel to be dug beneath the brothel (no easy task, as it would've been time consuming and rumors would have spread), then surely people would have made note of the Lady of CR being absent for long stretches of time, and often. Certainly either Jaime or Cersei would have mentioned their mother going "away" intermitently for no discernible reason. It's possible she could've just said "going to see your dad, don't tell anyone", and come up with an excuse to tell her vassals, but if her going was an endeavor to secrecy, certainly someone somewhere would have noticed that Joanna was not where she said she was going to be.

It's not outside of the realm of possibility, but it's a lot more work and provides a lot more opportunity for discovery/curiosity in the hands of anyone being interested in Joanna's dealings. Her leaving for any sort of frequency would more likely have the rumor mill turning out that she was cheating on Tywin with all these "unverified" travels. Travel is neither easy nor quick in Westeros.

That, and simply the way it's mentioned by Varys leads me to believe the tunnel has been around for a good long while.

[The Map Guy]

16 minutes ago, CandleWisps said:

If Joanna was coming to KL often enough to require a whole separate tunnel to be dug beneath the brothel (no easy task, as it would've been time consuming and rumors would have spread)

It's not that bad if you are the Hand of the King.

17 minutes ago, CandleWisps said:

then surely people would have made note of the Lady of CR being absent for long stretches of time, and often

Perhaps. But for Tywin to make babies with Joanna, Tywin would have to leave King's Landing ... and that was not noted either (except to witness the birth of Jaime/Cersei).

17 minutes ago, CandleWisps said:

Certainly either Jaime or Cersei would have mentioned their mother going "away" intermitently for no discernible reason. It's possible she could've just said "going to see your dad, don't tell anyone", and come up with an excuse to tell her vassals

The whole point of this was for the conception of Jaime & Cersei ... therefore Jaime & Cersei doesn't exist now lol

21 minutes ago, CandleWisps said:

Travel is neither easy nor quick in Westeros

Take a boat like Catelyn did (also like Ned & Howland did after TOJ) ... with a boat, there are less eyes watching compared to roads.
 

23 minutes ago, CandleWisps said:

That, and simply the way it's mentioned by Varys leads me to believe the tunnel has been around for a good long while.

It could be.
Perhaps Tywin didn't make the tunnel that led to the brothel. Perhaps the tunnel already existed, and Tywin made a new brothel at the end of the tunnel lol.