Lord Tywin Frequented Brothels (Theory)

[LynnS]

I think it's likely that Tywin used Alayaya's brothel and women were brought into the Hand's Tower by Varys.  I don't think it matters whether Tywin had it built, but rather that he made use of it.  Varys would likely ingratiate himself by making Tywin aware of the tunnel.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

7 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Well Catelyn came to King's Landing on her own will, but Littlefinger found out and help arrange the secret meeting in the brothel for Ned.
Perhaps Joanna came to King's Landing on her own will too.

That wasn't my point. You brought up the (speculative) idea of Joanna being hidden from Aerys in a brothel as a parallel to the in-book example of Catelyn being hidden in a brothel. But there actually aren't any ways that the two things are parallel. Except for (possibly) Joanna came to Kings Landing without Tywin's knowledge, but we can't know that because there's no evidence for it.

Even if Joanna did that (BIG if) then she either hid herself in a brothel (which is not what Catelyn did) or Tywin hid her there (which is not what Ned did). So if your argument is that the in-book example of Catelyn hiding in a brothel can be understood as a repetition of an earlier event involving Joanna Lannister hiding in a brothel, it's pretty useless because it's not actually very similar.

 

 

[The Map Guy]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think it's likely that Tywin used Alayaya's brothel and women were brought into the Hand's Tower by Varys.  I don't think it matters whether Tywin had it built, but rather that he made use of it.  Varys would likely ingratiate himself by making Tywin aware of the tunnel.

Just pointing out for the case of Jaime & Cersei, they were conceived in 265 AC ... Varys was brought into King's Landings in 278 AC.

5 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

So if your argument is that the in-book example of Catelyn hiding in a brothel can be understood as a repetition of an earlier event involving Joanna Lannister hiding in a brothel, it's pretty useless because it's not actually very similar.

Wife of the Hand secretly hides in a brothel to avoid detection of the current King.
Aside from motive, how is that not similar?

The theory has holes, but I believe more light would be shed on this secret tunnel in Fire & Blood Part II.

Besides, it is to address a connection to a MAJOR THEORY ... is Jaime & Cersei Targaryens?

If that is less interesting, we can go back to the OP and talk about minor theories. Who does the sex tunnel belong to? Who is the horny Hand and which whore(s)? How does that affect the story or ending of ASOIAF?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

Just pointing out for the case of Jaime & Cersei, they were conceived in 265 AC ... Varys was brought into King's Landings in 278 AC. 

Right, I'm just saying that Tywin knew about the tunnel and Varys about the secret passageway into the Hand's bedroom.  Whether or not Varys is involved; it does bring up the question of Tywin's potential bastards. 

[Bronn Urgandy]

On 7/26/2019 at 12:48 AM, The Ned's Little Girl said:

That wasn't my point. You brought up the (speculative) idea of Joanna being hidden from Aerys in a brothel as a parallel to the in-book example of Catelyn being hidden in a brothel. But there actually aren't any ways that the two things are parallel. Except for (possibly) Joanna came to Kings Landing without Tywin's knowledge, but we can't know that because there's no evidence for it.

Even if Joanna did that (BIG if) then she either hid herself in a brothel (which is not what Catelyn did) or Tywin hid her there (which is not what Ned did). So if your argument is that the in-book example of Catelyn hiding in a brothel can be understood as a repetition of an earlier event involving Joanna Lannister hiding in a brothel, it's pretty useless because it's not actually very similar.

 

 

Well, I mean I don’t know if I buy the theory myself, but it is pretty similar, the only differences are semantic, but core of the issue is the same ‘man visits brothel to find wife who is hidden there’

[The Ned's Little Girl]

2 hours ago, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

Well, I mean I don’t know if I buy the theory myself, but it is pretty similar, the only differences are semantic, but core of the issue is the same ‘man visits brothel to find wife who is hidden there’

No, the differences are not merely semantic. The similarity to Catelyn's event is literally the only thing the theory has as support; there's zero actual evidence of it. So the similarities had better be pretty dang persuasive.

Did Joanna Lannister hide in Kings Landing because one of her sons was nearly murdered and she suspected the family of the queen as the culprits? Not likely, but Catelyn did. Did Catelyn Stark hide in Kings Landing because the king lusted after her? Nope, that was supposedly Joanna. So the reason for each being there is totally different.

Was Joanna Lannister hidden in a brothel by a quasi-family member who did it as an insult to both her and her husband? Naw, that was Catelyn again. So the reason a brothel was used is totally different.

Did Joanna's husband house her in a brothel? Don't know - it's possible, but totally different than Catelyn. Did Joanna place herself in the brothel? Again, don't know - it's possible, but totally different from how Catelyn ended up there.

As they say, the devil is in the details. 

[The Map Guy]

5 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

As they say, the devil is in the details. 

And the clues & foreshadowing, and how GRRM writes in circle

Tyrion/Tysha/guards + Tyrion/Shae/Tywin + with a little sprinkle of the story Ned/Catelyn/hiding-in-brothel =
Joanna hiding in a brothel on during her visit to King's Landing in 265 AC to see her husband Tywin ... but King Aerys found out and use her like a whore

Tyrion gestured impatiently with the bow. "Tysha. What did you do with her, after my little lesson?"
"I don't recall."
"Try harder. Did you have her killed?"
His father pursed his lips. "There was no reason for that, she'd learned her place . . . and had been well paid for her day's work, I seem to recall. I suppose the steward sent her on her way. I never thought to inquire."
"On her way where?"
"Wherever whores go."
[...]
Tyrion ASOS XI

 

Pentos. Well, it was not King's Landing, that much could be said for it. "Where do whores go?" he heard himself ask.
"Whores are found in brothels here, as in Westeros. You will have no need of such, my little friend. Choose from amongst my servingwomen. None will dare refuse you."
[...]
Tyrion began his explorations with the kitchen, where two fat women and a potboy watched him warily as he helped himself to cheese, bread, and figs. "Good morrow to you, fair ladies," he said with a bow. "Do you know where whores go?" When they did not respond, he repeated the question in High Valyrian, though he had to say courtesan in place of whore. The younger, fatter cook gave him a shrug that time.
He wondered what they would do if he took them by the hand and dragged them to his bedchamber. None will dare refuse you, Illyrio claimed, but somehow Tyrion did not think he meant these two. The younger woman was old enough TO BE HIS MOTHER, and the older was likely her mother. Both were near as fat as Illyrio, with teats that were larger than his head. I could smother myself in flesh. There were worse ways to die. The way his lord father had died, for one. I should have made him shit a little gold before expiring. Lord Tywin might have been niggardly with his approval and affection, but he had always been open-handed when it came to coin. The only thing more pitiful than a dwarf without a nose is a dwarf without a nose who has no gold.
[...]
The washerwoman gave him one last glance, picked up her basket, and walked away. I cannot seem to hold a wife for very long, Tyrion reflected. Somehow his flagon had gone dry. Perhaps I should stumble back down to the cellars. The strongwine was making his head spin, though, and the cellar steps were very steep. "Where do whores go?" he asked the wash flapping on the line. Perhaps he should have asked the washerwoman. Not to imply that you're a whore, my dear, but perhaps you know where they go. Or better yet, he should have asked his father. "Wherever whores go," Lord Tywin said. She loved me. She was a crofter's daughter, she loved me and she wed me, she put her trust in me.
The empty flagon slipped from his hand and rolled across the yard. Tyrion pushed himself off the bench and went to fetch it. [...]
Tyrion I ADWD

[...]
He may well be a Targaryen after all. "If it please Your Grace." Tyrion got down on his hands and knees and began to crawl about the deck, gathering up pieces.
Tyrion VI ADWD

 

Eh, I'm too lazy to explain all this ... but all the bold is probably double-meaning/foreshadowing to A+J=J&C. Read and interpret as you like.

And for those that ask why Tyrion can't be conceived with secret sex tunnel? It's because Joanna was publicly in King's Landing during the year of Tyrion's conception. There is no need for a secret sex tunnel for Tywin if everyone knows your wife is already in the city.

Also, for 265 AC ... Tywin doesn't need to use the tunnel to go to the brothel. Tunnels work both ways. Joanna can walk the tunnel from the brothel to Tywin's room.

So where do whores go? ... brothels and the Tower of the Hand

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 7/25/2019 at 12:32 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

Not definite a proof. But a strong clue none the less. Give me examples, Father/Mother and Son/Daughter beheaving like crazed Targaryens. 

If you're talking about Cersei and Joffrey, the author has said that Joffrey is just a spoiled brat with too much power--he's not insane.
 

In 300+ years of Targaryens in Westeros and on Dragonstone there is exactly ONE instance of a parent and child both being mad, and even that isn't rock solid as there's some debate whether Viserys was actually insane or just majorly screwed up by what happened in his life and not having the temperament and background to deal with any of it. Not sure what examples you're looking for given that the text doesn't give us any among actual, known, mad Targaryens.

On 7/25/2019 at 12:32 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

LOL Tyrion clues are weak. Every smart guy would want a dragon. Particularly one abused and wanting revenge.

Tyrion clues are far more plentiful. Weak is in the eye of the beholder. And no, not every smart guy would want a dragon. Some very smart ones would not want that level of power, the possibility of beginning to abuse said power, or the responsibility if controlling a dragon. 

On 7/25/2019 at 12:32 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

Other evidences? I didn't use Tyrion references, for Cersei et Joffrey:

Again, GRRM said Joffrey is not mad. Tyrion never knew Aerys. He was a child when the Mad King was killed. All he knows about him are stories, and his line is more in keeping with what the future holds if nobody gets Joffrey under control.

As for Cersei, power corrupts, and Tyrion was exaggerating to make a point. Cersei is not as bad as any of the three he mentioned...so far. Besides which lack of gentleness, lack of selflessness, and lack of wisdom are not exclusive to the Targaryens by any means. They ruled for almost 300 years and Cersei is not exercising the power of their throne. Comparisons are inevitable.

On 7/25/2019 at 12:32 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

Or the fire, Tyrion feared the Wildfire, Cersei was mad with it. Burning the Tower of the Hand:

That's the only thing that even comes close to an actual possible clue for Cersei having any Targ blood. Quite frankly, she's too stupid to fear it as she should. But there's no evidence that Aerys Targaryen was the only person in Planetos with pyromania. We simply don't know enough about wildfire's history to say for certain that it's a solid clue for Cersei. She wouldn't be the first power hungry maniac to be entranced by something powerful, destructive and seemingly magical (and admittedly in-universe actually magical). 

On 7/25/2019 at 12:32 AM, BalerionTheCat said:

Or Genna's words:

Not literal, but... Jaime has Lanister blood. But Tyrion is the ONE 100% Tywin"s. And sometimes words have more meaning that the teller intended.

Not literal, no. Tyrion is Tywin in miniature, with a crappy upbringing. That's what Genna is saying. Tyrion is Tywin writ small, as they say. Words can have more meaning than the teller intended yes, but sometimes the curtains are just blue. Case in point: Genna says Jaime is more Tygett or Gerion, and last I knew no one was theorizing that Joanna slept with one or both of them.

 

On 7/25/2019 at 11:05 AM, The Map Guy said:

I didn't know dragon dreams were a criteria for being a Targaryen. I don't recall Jon Snow having any

They are one potential way GRRM could clue us in to Targaryen ancestry. And sometimes the Targs who dream them go mad, or in the case of Aegon V's older brother become a drunk because he couldn't deal with the dreams.

Known dragon dreamers:

-Daenys the Dreamer
-Daeron the Drunken
-Daeron Blackfyre the Second
-Maester Aemon
-our Daenerys.

There were probably others, but these are the ones for whom we have solid proof. Jon not having had one doesn't rule him out, but there are plenty of clues about his parentage (which point to Ned at least believing he's got dragonblood), whereas the theory that Aerys is the father of the Lannister twins is less-supported by the text. And hardly anyone ever gets into the possibility that one of the twins could be Aerys' but the other be Tywin's.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 7/26/2019 at 12:07 AM, The Map Guy said:

Wife of the Hand secretly hides in a brothel to avoid detection of the current King.
Aside from motive, how is that not similar?

Well there's the fact that Catelyn was NOT hiding in a brothel. Littlefinger's men showed up where she was staying and took her to him.  He arranged the brothel bit, and he did it to tweak Ned's nose.

We're lacking a Littlefinger-like player involved in the Joanna/Tywin/Aerys triangle putting Joanna at Chataya's to irk Tywin. And Tywin would not have reacted any better to his wife in a brothel than Ned did, so I don't see him coming up with the idea. It's far more likely that Tywin thought Joanna was safe from Aerys' attentions once she married him. The tunnel was to bring female companionship to a Hand discretely, not to bring the Hand's wife in secret. It's not dishonorable for a man to sneak his own wife in to his bed.

[Lucia Targaryen]

There's a theory that Donnel Hill of the Night's Watch is Tywin's bastard. 

[Dofs]

On 7/23/2019 at 11:42 AM, hnv said:

pretty much accepted as a fact at this point

Shouldn't be until we know for certain what happened between Shae/Tywin/Varys as George has said he hasn't yet revealed everything that happened there.

[The Map Guy]

On 8/3/2019 at 12:24 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

whereas the theory that Aerys is the father of the Lannister twins is less-supported by the text. And hardly anyone ever gets into the possibility that one of the twins could be Aerys' but the other be Tywin's.

"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast. You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak . . . but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year. Men are such thundering great fools. Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."
{Jaime V AFFC}

 

On 8/3/2019 at 12:33 AM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

We're lacking a Littlefinger-like player involved in the Joanna/Tywin/Aerys triangle

Perhaps we will find out in F&B Part II ... and I guess this pimp's name is ... Middlefinger!

But seriously, this Middlefinger fellow is a REYNE that escaped Tywin's wrath at Castamere in 261 AC.

After Tywin floods the Castamere tunnels and having House Reyne wiped out, Middlefinger-Reyne pretends to be an ally to Joanna and arranges the secret sex tunnel in King's Landing ... but this was a revenge trap to mess up Tywin's legacy. Middlefinger secretly betrays Tywin & Joanna by notifying King Aerys that Joanna was in town in 265 AC. Middlefinger knows Aerys has a thing for Joanna, and Aerys forces Joanna to sleep with him ... conceiving Jaime & Cersei Lannister-Targaryen bastards ... to mess up Tywin's legacy as revenge for the Rains of Castamere.

Do I have proof of this Middlefinger character and the secret revenge sex tunnel plot?

Yes ... only if you believe in sigil theories and map theories. 

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Entry/House_Reyne/

The sigil of House Reyne: is a silver background (silver = secondary), with a red lion (like a red Targaryen dragon), a little golden tongue (a little bit of Lannister, Joanna) ... and finally the TWIN RED FORKED tail of the sigil.

If anyone read my Rhaegar Ruby Map theory, it suggests the twin red forks of the Trident represent Jaime & Cersei as secret Targaryens.

Revenge of House Reyne = Jaime & Cersei NOT being the children of Tywin Lannister, thanks to Middlefinger! 

I think A+J=J&C is important to the story and important to GRRM, that GRRM would work out all the little logistics and little details to support A+J=J&C.