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Depiction of fighters in ASoIaF


Aldarion

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OK, I did some work on how body structure affects fighting performance. Result is here:

https://militaryfantasy.home.blog/2019/07/23/medieval-weapons-and-body-type/

What I am interested in now is how does Martin depict great fighters in ASoIaF? I know that they range gamut from small to huge - Oberyn Martell, Barristan Selmy, Ned Stark are IIRC about average, Rhaegar was probably lanky, whereas Robert Baratheon and Gregor Clegane are described as huge. This I do not have a problem with.

What I do have a problem with is how combat and weapons are depicted. King Robert's warhammer here weights 10 lbs - which is already rather large (a polehammer would have weighted 5 lbs). Yet it is stated that Robert's warhammer could have been "scarcely lifted" by Ned Stark, who happens to not be a toddler. This is clearly epic-poem-style exaggeration, as something so heavy normal man could have barely lifted it would have been completely unusable as a weapon even for a 300 lbs giant.

But what are other specifics about Martin's depiction of combat in ASoIaF, what caught your eye (like above did for me)?

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Regarding warhammers, this video is good:

 

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Theres a difference between making a world feel grounded to a general audience and making it realistic.

It is first and foremost a story and a fantasy at that. So it’s purpose isn’t to communicate real world historical facts you can get in a textbook. It’s to write in a way that’s compelling and lends drama to what he’s writing.

The main problem is that the combat is over dramatised. Characters dying at dramatic moments or failing through some personal foible to tell us a moral lesson rather than a stray arrow. Case in point, Verdus Egan against Bronn. That’s essentially George coming out against the whole idea of fighting with honour and a little bit of the stereotype of Knights being unable to fight in their own armour. It reflects on Lysa and what she’s doing to Tyrion; plus characterises Bronn. Rather than Vardus just nicking unarmoured Bronn once and then putting a dagger through his throat once he falls over. Which goes back to the fact that storytelling always comes before realism.

Its all a question of taste. For me it doesn’t break my immersion and I am here for the fantasy elements. Whilst it can be neat to point out these things, I just did one on why Winterfell is stupid as the Northern capital, it should never be dictating the story.

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16 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Theres a difference between making a world feel grounded to a general audience and making it realistic.

It is first and foremost a story and a fantasy at that. So it’s purpose isn’t to communicate real world historical facts you can get in a textbook. It’s to write in a way that’s compelling and lends drama to what he’s writing.

The main problem is that the combat is over dramatised. Characters dying at dramatic moments or failing through some personal foible to tell us a moral lesson rather than a stray arrow. Case in point, Verdus Egan against Bronn. That’s essentially George coming out against the whole idea of fighting with honour and a little bit of the stereotype of Knights being unable to fight in their own armour. It reflects on Lysa and what she’s doing to Tyrion; plus characterises Bronn. Rather than Vardus just nicking unarmoured Bronn once and then putting a dagger through his throat once he falls over. Which goes back to the fact that storytelling always comes before realism.

Its all a question of taste. For me it doesn’t break my immersion and I am here for the fantasy elements. Whilst it can be neat to point out these things, I just did one on why Winterfell is stupid as the Northern capital, it should never be dictating the story.

Yep. It's got dragons and ice demons plus a city of 500K people with retconned sewers and pipes for drinking water.

Some details were important to the story, others were not or didn't merit much consideration.

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GRRM signed off on the reproduction hammer being some monstrous block Grond thing, it's still fantasy and almost all the warfare and combat is less grounded than people like to make out. It can be fun to pick apart and discuss from a real world angle but ultimately realistic warfare and combat often does not a good fantasy story make. 

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Roberts Warhammer weighs 10 pounds. That on itself makes him invincible. I don’t know how Rhaegar managed to survive more than one minute facing this Warhammer. One swing of that massive beast and it would break whatever is on its path. Like a knight could try to block the attack with his shield, but with a Warhammer of that size and weight plus adding the unnatural strength of Robert, it would shatter the shield and break it, and most possibly the arm holding it would suffer major bruises or broken bones. Even if you attempted to block it with a Valyrian sword, the sword would just fall off your hand due to the heavy impact. 

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9 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Roberts Warhammer weighs 10 pounds. That on itself makes him invincible. I don’t know how Rhaegar managed to survive more than one minute facing this Warhammer. One swing of that massive beast and it would break whatever is on its path. Like a knight could try to block the attack with his shield, but a Warhammer of that size and weight plus adding the unnatural strength of Robert. That shield would be shattered and broken, and most possible the arm holding it would suffer major bruises or broken bones. Even if you attempted to block it with a Valyrian sword, the sword would just fall off your hand due to the heavy impact. 

That is the idea, I think. Robert is basically made to seem less of a real person, and more of an epic hero in the vein of Achilles or Ajax.

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3 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

That is the idea, I think. Robert is basically made to seem less of a real person, and more of an epic hero in the vein of Achilles or Ajax.

True. He is constantly described as a Warrior or a warrior King. Not an excellent swordsmen or Knight. Tho Barristan says he was a good knight. He will likely become the stuff of legend, up there with Aegon the conqueror, and the young dragon.

And you’d think that this 10 pound Warhammer would require both hands even for the likes of Robert, or the mountain. But no Bobby B uses One Hand whilst his other hand he has his shield. The fact that he can wield his shield at the same time, is already unnatural on itself. 

But I am not gonna complain in a fiction that has dragons, magic, and many other things. Robert is one of my favourite characters, and I would’ve loved to see more of his warrior side. 

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