Why isn’t Winterfell a city? Why not White Harbour as the Northern Capital?

[The Young Maester]

16 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Think harder.  England's capital was Winchester until the Norman Conquest.  But in any case, in medieval geopolitics, the capital is wherever the king is, not a fixed location.  The court has all the functions of government traveling with it, so if the court isn't in, say, Paris, then Paris is just another town.  Indeed, under Louis XI Tours was effectively the capital of France, because his favorite residence was in/near that city.  The Kingdom of Castile didn't even have a permanent "capital"

England became a major medieval nation when William the conqueror came in. When Alfred rebuilt Winchester the town grew slowly, since England was at constant war with Viking’s, Winchester pretty much became a fortress to rally the troops. If Winchester had remained as the capital of England, it would’ve grown into a major city by the 12th century, but not as big as London.

In this case The North isn’t the ancient kingdoms of Castile or France where some of its Kings decided to hold court on different provinces of the land, or travel with the court. The North has had a permanent capital for a thousand years. Same for every kingdom in Westeros. Kings Landing became the largest city in Westeros because of its trade hub location and because it was the permanent capital of a continent the size of Africa. 

Once London was established as the capital of England, the city grew and now its one of the largest or most important cities in the World. Some people even say that if we had a world order, London would be it’s capital.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If at all possible it's better to have an inland capital. Coastal capitals are too vulnerable to attacks by enemy navies and pirates.

But Winterfell is not the "capital" of the North. None of the regions really has a capital, unless you count KL in the Crownlands. What they do have is the seat of each ruling family. In Dorne that switches between Sunspear and the Water Gardens, but the others are static.

Capitals move around, but castles tend to stay where they are.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 7/23/2019 at 3:36 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

I think George also wanted to sharply contrast the Spartan and martial culture of the North. Noble savages. Compared to the decadence of urban Kings Landing; reflecting the South. So having Winterfell be a fortress highlights this.

Not sure why the Kings of Winter wouldn’t want to stay close to where the money and people are. 

The Dothraki would be the noble savages. Emphasis on the savage part.

The Kings of Winter stayed in Winterfell for reasons of magic, to do with the Others, most likely. The castle was probably built on the site of a major battle in the War for the Dawn. You know...where winter fell. The line "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is not just something they say. There's a reason why the Starks need to hold that castle, and things will go south (so to speak) if they don't. Granted none of the characters know this, but even Catelyn who wasn't born a Stark seems to sense that it's more than just words.

[Nittanian]

22 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Are there another wintertownS? Or do people living in areas ruled by either house Umber, Karstark or Bolton have their own places to survive winter? I assume that people living near either Barrowtown or White Harbor move there during winters, but people living areas ruled by houses mentioned above live so far from those places and Wintertown itself that they could have build their own wintertowns.

There are other northern towns, but they haven't been named yet.

Quote

The most prominent towns in the North are the "winter town" beneath the walls of Winterfell and Barrowton in the Barrowlands. (TWOIAF The North)

 

[Tyrion1991]

20 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Think harder.  England's capital was Winchester until the Norman Conquest.  But in any case, in medieval geopolitics, the capital is wherever the king is, not a fixed location.  The court has all the functions of government traveling with it, so if the court isn't in, say, Paris, then Paris is just another town.  Indeed, under Louis XI Tours was effectively the capital of France, because his favorite residence was in/near that city.  The Kingdom of Castile didn't even have a permanent "capital"

 

Westeros is too advanced to be compared to Anglo Saxon England. War of the Roses and the Hundred Years War are the time periods George draws inspiration from. That means London.

Westeros is neither a comfortable palace nor a large metropolitan area; it’s a fortress. What King who could live in White Harbour would insist on living in a desolate backwater? If the starks can go anywhere then they don’t need to be in Winterfell.

[Tyrion1991]

14 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The Dothraki would be the noble savages. Emphasis on the savage part.

The Kings of Winter stayed in Winterfell for reasons of magic, to do with the Others, most likely. The castle was probably built on the site of a major battle in the War for the Dawn. You know...where winter fell. The line "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" is not just something they say. There's a reason why the Starks need to hold that castle, and things will go south (so to speak) if they don't. Granted none of the characters know this, but even Catelyn who wasn't born a Stark seems to sense that it's more than just words.

 

The  Northerners are noble savages. You have this emphasis on them living hand to mouth, having this spiritual connection to nature with the Weirwoods “your gods are the ones with all the rules” and a stress on a rustic humble honour stripped of all the false artifice of corrupt southern ways. They might be our POV but that’s what they are. The savage aspect is because they are also violent killers who chop peoples heads off, keep a penal colony, fight genocidal wars against the Wildlings and used to sacrifice people to trees. They’re also prone to keeping Direwolves and all the Northern Lords are harsh brooding and brutal men who love killing.

Well actually it really is just something they say along with “Winter is coming” since they are ignorant of the true meaning. Dead people. Lots of them. Stripped of that context these are idiotic statements. Ah, winter is coming but if I live in Dorne that winter is a mild breeze? Maybe you shouldn’t have tried to people Siberia when winters last a decade Mr Stark. 

Yes, George has set up magic being a reason to live in Winterfell. Has Stark has a destiny there and all that. But, ignorant of that they probably would just wander off and hold court elsewhere.

 

[cpg2016]

22 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

England became a major medieval nation when William the conqueror came in. When Alfred rebuilt Winchester the town grew slowly, since England was at constant war with Viking’s, Winchester pretty much became a fortress to rally the troops. If Winchester had remained as the capital of England, it would’ve grown into a major city by the 12th century, but not as big as London.

Is this a joke?  England was one of the most advanced states in Western Europe prior the Norman Conquest.  In fact it was the conflict against the Vikings and the degree of centralization of administration and taxation which laid the foundation for later Plantagenet success.  You can argue that "Winchester would have grown" until you're blue in the face - the reality was that it didn't.  I could be a billionaire if I had invented Amazon, but I didn't.  

22 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

In this case The North isn’t the ancient kingdoms of Castile or France where some of its Kings decided to hold court on different provinces of the land, or travel with the court. The North has had a permanent capital for a thousand years. Same for every kingdom in Westeros. Kings Landing became the largest city in Westeros because of its trade hub location and because it was the permanent capital of a continent the size of Africa. 

Once London was established as the capital of England, the city grew and now its one of the largest or most important cities in the World. Some people even say that if we had a world order, London would be it’s capital.

I'm not really sure what you want out of this.  You said most medieval nations had capitals that were based in a large (for the time) city.  This is demonstrably untrue - I gave you three distinct examples, and you poorly refuted only one of them.  Winchester was the "capital" such as it was.  Your rebuttal of this is circular reasoning - you're saying that because Winchester was small, it couldn't be a true capital, because a true capital is populous.

I'll remind you that the Stormlands, the Vale, the Kingdom of Isles and Rivers, and the Reach are ALSO pre-unification Kingdoms, and none of them are based around a city, but around a castle.  So... you know, again, your argument is wrong on it's face.  You can't make the claim that a continuously unified kingdom would have a populous capital when we see that isn't the truth in the majority of cases, and this is consistent with real world history, in which many medieval kingdoms had itinerant courts and so never developed a populous political center

[cpg2016]

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Westeros is too advanced to be compared to Anglo Saxon England. War of the Roses and the Hundred Years War are the time periods George draws inspiration from. That means London.

Umm.... that is ONE of the inspirations.  Essos is Renaissance Italy.  Dorne is Moorish Spain.  The Reach is Aquitaine under Eleanor/Richard.  The War of the Five Kings as an event is based on the War of the Roses; the influences for all of Planetos span time and space.  Those three influences I mentioned?  None are contiguous with either the War of the Roses or the Hundred Years War (save perhaps the Renaissance).

3 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Westeros is neither a comfortable palace nor a large metropolitan area; it’s a fortress. What King who could live in White Harbour would insist on living in a desolate backwater? If the starks can go anywhere then they don’t need to be in Winterfell.

I think you meant Winterfell.  The Starks can go anywhere.  They choose to live in Winterfell.  It has plenty of advantages.  It is explicitly noted as comfortable, since it's fed by hot springs and has it's own greenhouse.  It isn't luxurious, but those are not synonyms, sir.  And this idea that a "capital" must be located in a large urban area... well, the capital is where the court is, and the court is where the king is.  Both Henry II and Richard I spent barely any time in England despite being kings, and the court travelled with them.  Even after this ceased to be the case, the capital wasn't London but was Westminster, and it was only when those two municipalities merged that the administrative capital technically became London.  Because it's the capital today, and because it was the economic center of the Kingdom of England, people wrongly assume it was always the capital.  For most of the medieval period it was not.  In fact it wasn't a particularly important town until relatively late in the medieval period.

But your last point is instructive.  The Starks choose to stay in Winterfell.  Where you would go is immaterial; they stay.  Just like the Durrandons stayed in Storms End and the Gardeners in Highgarden and the Arryns in the Eyrie and the Lannisters in Casterly Rock.... do I need to go on, or is this sufficient evidence that you're wrong?  You know, that almost every other pre-Conquest kingdom has a capital which is in no way, shape, or form in the most populous city?

[Tyrion1991]

47 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Umm.... that is ONE of the inspirations.  Essos is Renaissance Italy.  Dorne is Moorish Spain.  The Reach is Aquitaine under Eleanor/Richard.  The War of the Five Kings as an event is based on the War of the Roses; the influences for all of Planetos span time and space.  Those three influences I mentioned?  None are contiguous with either the War of the Roses or the Hundred Years War (save perhaps the Renaissance).

I think you meant Winterfell.  The Starks can go anywhere.  They choose to live in Winterfell.  It has plenty of advantages.  It is explicitly noted as comfortable, since it's fed by hot springs and has it's own greenhouse.  It isn't luxurious, but those are not synonyms, sir.  And this idea that a "capital" must be located in a large urban area... well, the capital is where the court is, and the court is where the king is.  Both Henry II and Richard I spent barely any time in England despite being kings, and the court travelled with them.  Even after this ceased to be the case, the capital wasn't London but was Westminster, and it was only when those two municipalities merged that the administrative capital technically became London.  Because it's the capital today, and because it was the economic center of the Kingdom of England, people wrongly assume it was always the capital.  For most of the medieval period it was not.  In fact it wasn't a particularly important town until relatively late in the medieval period.

But your last point is instructive.  The Starks choose to stay in Winterfell.  Where you would go is immaterial; they stay.  Just like the Durrandons stayed in Storms End and the Gardeners in Highgarden and the Arryns in the Eyrie and the Lannisters in Casterly Rock.... do I need to go on, or is this sufficient evidence that you're wrong?  You know, that almost every other pre-Conquest kingdom has a capital which is in no way, shape, or form in the most populous city?

 

Well the North being 600 years behind the rest of Westeros is quite a funny thought. Not sure how they have plate armour and can keep 20k men in the field for several years with a Saxon society.

I didn’t realise the Starks had mismanaged their realm so much. Then again they haven’t clocked the boltons might be actually really bad so they’re obviously a few screws loose. Plus they still believe that war is a question of Northern valour rather than real things like wealth and management; things the Northerners detest as beneath them. It’s contemptible that they think they’re better than the Wildlings. They are a vile and wretched people who’ve done nothing to warrant an inch of respect or adoration.

No I still think George made Winterfell a castle without a city because it sharpens the distinction between the North and South.

 

 

 

[The Young Maester]

2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

Is this a joke?

I dont see how my opinions are a joke. They might be a joke to u but not to me. 

 

2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

England was one of the most advanced states in Western Europe prior the Norman Conquest.  In fact it was the conflict against the Vikings and the degree of centralization of administration and taxation which laid the foundation for later Plantagenet success.  You can argue that "Winchester would have grown" until you're blue in the face - the reality was that it didn't.  I could be a billionaire if I had invented Amazon, but I didn't.  

Here i would go "is this a joke?"but i am not going to disrespect your own opinion, after all we all have our own opinions and i am going to respect that.

Prior to Norman conquest England was a backward kingdom, To Western Europe England was an uncivilised kingdom that lacked the proper hierarchy of the feudal society. William and his Normans revolutionised England into becoming a feudal society. So stating that it was an advanced state in western Europe is rather wrong. Some people might argue that England already had a feudal society (which is kinda true), but this anglo-saxon feudalism wasn't what you call proper medieval feudalism. This is where historians that support the anglo-saxons and those that support the Normans start to clash. And yes Winchester would've have grown into the largest city in England if it had remained as its capital. But William choose London.

 

2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

I'm not really sure what you want out of this.  You said most medieval nations had capitals that were based in a large (for the time) city.  This is demonstrably untrue - I gave you three distinct examples, and you poorly refuted only one of them.  Winchester was the "capital" such as it was.  Your rebuttal of this is circular reasoning - you're saying that because Winchester was small, it couldn't be a true capital, because a true capital is populous.

Yes medieval kingdoms established a capital in a province and this province will naturally grow into a larger settlement with time. Castille never had a permanent capital until some king made Toledo the actual capital. This caused Toledo to grow as a city, but later on Toledo started to decline when some Spanish king moved the capital of Spain to Madrid. To the French Paris has always been considered its capital. And yes from time to time some french king would hold court on multiple places like in artois. But Paris was always the capital where most French kings resided and look how big Paris was by 1200. The English held Paris for a while during the 100 years war, and the french king was forced to hold court in different provinces. 

I never said Winchester couldn't be England's capital, dont put words in my mouth. I said Winchester would've grown into a city if it had remained as England's capital. 

 

2 hours ago, cpg2016 said:

I'll remind you that the Stormlands, the Vale, the Kingdom of Isles and Rivers, and the Reach are ALSO pre-unification Kingdoms, and none of them are based around a city, but around a castle.  So... you know, again, your argument is wrong on it's face.  You can't make the claim that a continuously unified kingdom would have a populous capital when we see that isn't the truth in the majority of cases, and this is consistent with real world history, in which many medieval kingdoms had itinerant courts and so never developed a populous political center

You are confusing my argument here. My argument refers to the post of this topic. 

Why isn’t Winterfell a city? Why not White Harbour as the Northern Capital?

The argument is that a permanent capital causes that said capital to have an increase in population and later on a large town or city. The argument is against the fact that none of these westerosi capitals have a large settlement around its hold-fasts. Henceforth real medieval kingdoms are being used as an example of why a permanent capital results with a large populous around it. This is a fiction and we are debating the realism of it. You are saying that real world kingdoms never developed a populous political center, this truth only applies to kingdoms that never had a Permanent Capital. The Empire of Abyssinia never had a capital, and instead the emperor would travel around his kingdom with his court. But when one of the Emperors established a capital in the middle of a mountain, the province grew into the largest city in the Kingdom. Same goes for castille, and the mongols who once settled themselves with a permanent capital this capital would've had a large increase in population. 

[Colvinus]

Lazy writing.

[Reekazoid]

On 7/23/2019 at 10:19 PM, Aebram said:

Winterfell has those natural hot springs. They would have attracted people to the area even before there was a castle there.

This. In a land where winters last for years this would have been an ideal location as the inhabitants would always have warmth, sustenance, and running potable water.   It also kept the ground from freezing so they could grow food even in winter, especially once they figured out greenhouses. 

 

White harbor is a more sensible location for commerce to be sure and that is reflected by the wealth of the Manderlys. 

[The Commentator]

The North is the backwoods of Westeros. It can only support one real city and it is on the coast.  Winterfell is an outpost, like what Dragonstone was before the Arrival of the Targaryens.  Winterfell still is.

 

[Aebram]

A big city needs a lot of support from the surrounding countryside. City dwellers depend on the country for food, as well as other resources like wool, leather, wood, stone, etc. This means that the local farmers must be productive enough to grow surplus food that they can sell. In the North, because of the colder climate, it's probably much harder to do that. So it makes sense that the only large city would be on the coast, where it has access to food and other resources brought in by ships.

[The Commentator]

7 minutes ago, Aebram said:

A big city needs a lot of support from the surrounding countryside. City dwellers depend on the country for food, as well as other resources like wool, leather, wood, stone, etc. This means that the local farmers must be productive enough to grow surplus food that they can sell. In the North, because of the colder climate, it's probably much harder to do that. So it makes sense that the only large city would be on the coast, where it has access to food and other resources brought in by ships.

Agree

[Tyrion1991]

40 minutes ago, Aebram said:

A big city needs a lot of support from the surrounding countryside. City dwellers depend on the country for food, as well as other resources like wool, leather, wood, stone, etc. This means that the local farmers must be productive enough to grow surplus food that they can sell. In the North, because of the colder climate, it's probably much harder to do that. So it makes sense that the only large city would be on the coast, where it has access to food and other resources brought in by ships.

 

Then how can the Starks be the most powerful house in the North if they don’t have the most land and more importantly people? The Tsars of Russia didn’t build a castle in Siberia and make it their capital.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 7/24/2019 at 9:59 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Iam assuming they were a bit more than a few dozen houses?

Also Aachen is pulling from the Dark Ages which was very deurbanised whereas Westeros is strongly based on 15th century England. Which should mean cities.

Pavia was still a city though.

 

Well a ten year winter should put a block on human habitation period. There are enough issues living in Siberia for a few months of the year in the real world. Never mind for a premodern society. The Mongols moved their capital out of their homelands for a reason.

If it’s a naval trading hub then you would expect it to have developed like the Volga river in Russia with small towns and cities. Not the fortress of solitude and the few hundred inhabitants we’re presented with.

If the population increased then you would expect large numbers of vacant houses and for the city or town to be walled. Neither I recall being the case do this is obviously just a few hamlets for a few hundred people.

If winter came then migrating south to a warmer climate or the coast makes much more sense than travelling inland where it’s going to be coldest. Plus you would have to risk travel and then built shelter on site at Winterfell. It’s much easier to have built shelters long in advance where you know there is food.

Plus, if all the winter grain stores are collected at Winterfell then you would expect people to inhabit the area.

I am not sure why White Harbour wouldn’t become more dominant among the North as a result of living in such a barren and impoverished region. If the land is poor then the starks shouldn’t be able to maintain or equip a large number of men at arms. This should make controlling their bannerman much more difficult. The seat with the money and the people has the advantage.

Again I am still going with George opting for the rule of cool with this one. He wanted the north to simultaneously be a great feudal military power and be this martial warrior society that doesn’t do things like build cities and towns. 

Read the books, PLEASE!

A short summary;

-even during the summer the population of Winter town is in the thousands, not low hundreds.

-It has vacant houses made of stone and wood.

-In Winter, it can house over 10000 people, as seen with it being able to house some 10000 soldiers, on top of the already existing townsfolk.

-Winterfell predates Wolf’s Den by thousands of years, which itself predates WH by thousands of years.

-WH is not the only port of the North, even on the eastern side, it’s just the largest one.

- Not all the grain is stored in WF! Do you think all the lords just pack up and leave their castles come winter and go to WF? When winter comes, in addition to it’s normal population, people from the nearby villages and the mountain clans travel there.

[Aebram]

47 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Then how can the Starks be the most powerful house in the North if they don’t have the most land and more importantly people? The Tsars of Russia didn’t build a castle in Siberia and make it their capital.

Fair question. I'm not an expert on actual history like some others here, but I'll take a shot.

When the First Men settled the North, they had Kings, not Lords, who fought with each other for power. The Starks originally settled on the coast, in the old Wolf's Den castle, in what is now White Harbor. So at that time, they did have access to resources brought in by ship.

Once the Starks became the Kings in the North, they had enough resources to construct a new seat at Winterfell. The hot springs there gave it an additional source of food, and also of warmth.  Firewood is probably as important as food in a long Northern winter.  Yes, there are plenty of trees, but fresh-cut wood doesn't burn well. In a cold climate, the logs need to sit around for a few years to "season."

IIRC, after Winterfell became the seat, the Wolf's Den was home to lesser branches of House Stark, and some of them did in fact rebel against their King. But at that time, White Harbor must have been much smaller than it is now. I suppose that in an all-out war today, White Harbor could beat Winterfell, because access to shipping would be more effective than hot springs. But House Manderly has ruled there for 600 years, and they don't seem like the rebellious type. 

 

[Tyrion1991]

1 hour ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Read the books, PLEASE!

A short summary;

-even during the summer the population of Winter town is in the thousands, not low hundreds.

-It has vacant houses made of stone and wood.

-In Winter, it can house over 10000 people, as seen with it being able to house some 10000 soldiers, on top of the already existing townsfolk.

-Winterfell predates Wolf’s Den by thousands of years, which itself predates WH by thousands of years.

-WH is not the only port of the North, even on the eastern side, it’s just the largest one.

- Not all the grain is stored in WF! Do you think all the lords just pack up and leave their castles come winter and go to WF? When winter comes, in addition to it’s normal population, people from the nearby villages and the mountain clans travel there.

 

Still on my shelf and looking at them right now. Of course I’ve read them; a few times actually. But you may have noticed, but these are meaty tomes. An offhand line can mean little and less. 

Also the Starks wolf fetish is kind of getting dull, if not a little creepy. This is an age where wolves dragging off your children to eat them was a thing. Nice people don’t do that. Plus it just shows a blatant lack of imagination and an ego to call yourself Kings of Winter.

Well if they’ve went to the trouble of building a large town, it’s seems incredibly strange to leave it derelict for decades or more during the summer. They should be falling apart.

How was Theon able to take Winterfell if there were thousands of people in this Winter Town? Seriously all I am picturing is Santa’s grotto atm. How did none of them see the Bolton’s sack winterfell? I doubt they could have killed absolutely everyone in Winter Town. Or is Winter Town at such a convenient distance they can’t see these things?

How do these people avoid dying of exposure and hunger on the journey to Winterfell? This seems poorly thought out just so you can argue that the Starks are offering shelter to the people; instead of just having an existing city. Starks have a habit of their good intentions killing people don’t they?

Mountain clans? Oh I get it, this is like Scotland and Braveheart isn’t it? Wow! That’s so original and really drives home how the Northerners are this proud warrior society untainted by Andal corruption. Not a bunch of long faced freaks who think they’re gods gift and trying to be edgy. 

[Jaak]

On 7/26/2019 at 12:30 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

Well the North being 600 years behind the rest of Westeros is quite a funny thought. Not sure how they have plate armour and can keep 20k men in the field for several years with a Saxon society.

King Berengar I of Italy ruled from Pavia, which was a city. Not a big city, mind you - having been capital of Italy for 400 years had not made Pavia overshadow nearby Milan, and both were as yet far overshadowed by Rome.

The Saxon society led by King Otto I in Palace of Werla, unaccompanied by a city, was the one who could march men over Alps and crown Emperors of Holy Empire.

Even when, in 11th, 12th, 13th century, cities did grow up in Germany, like Cologne, Frankfurt am Main, Nuremberg... none of them became a permanent Capital of Kaisers. It was only in 17th century that Kaiser finally got a capital in Vienna.