Targaryen-Baratheons - How fiery is the blood of the stag?

[Lord Varys]

@Bael's Bastard asked here when exactly George knew/came up with the idea that Robert Baratheon and his brothers had a rather recent Targaryen ancestor in their paternal grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen (the youngest child of King Aegon V).

The question of the dragon blood of House Baratheon is a rather interesting question - and at the same time very confusing, because there are contradictory statements about this.

The first hint that the Baratheons and Targaryens are interrelated goes back to the 'House Baratheon appendix' of AGoT:

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The youngest of the Great Houses, born during the Wars of Conquest. Its founder, Orys Baratheon, was rumored to be Aegon the Dragon’s bastard brother. Orys rose through the ranks to become one of Aegon’s fiercest commanders. When he defeated and slew Argilac the Arrogant, the last Storm King, Aegon rewarded him with Argilac’s castle, lands, and daughter. Orys took the girl to bride, and adopted the banner, honors, and words of her line. The Baratheon sigil is a crowned stag, black, on a golden field. Their words are Ours is the Fury.

It was long wondered whether Lord Orys was (allegedly) a bastard son of Aegon's father or mother but FaB finally confirmed that the rumors about Orys Baratheon claim he is a bastard son of Lord Aerion Targaryen, Aegon I's father. King Jaehaerys I himself believes the following (according to Archmaester Gyldayn):

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“Dragonseeds, they call them,” Jaehaerys said with obvious reluctance. “It is not a thing to boast of, but it has happened, mayhaps more often than we would care to admit. Such children are cherished, though. Orys Baratheon himself was a dragonseed, a bastard brother to our grandsire. Whether he was conceived of a first night I cannot say, but Lord Aerion was his father, that was well-known. Gifts were given…”

 Earlier in the book, when Gyldayn discusses the importance of Lord Rogar Baratheon at court of young Jaehaerys I he states the following:

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Blue-eyed and black-bearded and muscled like a bull, Lord Rogar was the eldest of five brothers, all grandsons of Orys One-Hand, the first Baratheon Lord of Storm’s End. Orys had been a bastard brother to Aegon the Conqueror and his most trusted commander. After slaying Argilac the Arrogant, last of the Durrandon, he had taken Argilac’s daughter to wife. Lord Rogar could thus claim that both the blood of the dragon and that of the storm kings of old flowed in his veins. No swordsman, his lordship preferred to wield a double-bladed axe in battle…an axe, he oft said, “large and heavy enough to cleave through a dragon’s skull.”

This makes it clear that in the opinion of Gyldayn at least the claims about Orys Baratheon being a half-brother of Aegon the Conqueror on his father's side gives his descendant the blood of the dragon - and thus a claim to the Iron Throne itself. An opinion that I think is implicitly reflected in this discussion of the Small Council of Jaehaerys I:

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Rogar Baratheon could not yield as gracefully, however, and his wife’s words woke in him a fury. In front of Grand Maester Benifer, Septon Mattheus, Lord Velaryon, and the rest, he spoke to her contemptuously. “You are weak,” he declared, “as weak as your first husband was, as weak as your son. Sentiment may be forgiven in a mother, but not in a regent, and never in a king. We were fools to crown Jaehaerys. He thinks only of himself, and he will be a worse king than his father was. Thank the gods that it is not too late. We must act now and put him aside.”
A hush fell over the chamber at those words. The Queen Regent stared at her lord husband in horror and then, as if to prove that he had spoken truly, began to weep, her tears running silent down her cheeks. Only then did the other lords find their tongues. “Have you taken leave of your senses?” asked Lord Velaryon. Lord Corbray, Commander of the City Watch, shook his head and said, “My men will never stand for it.” Grand Maester Benifer exchanged a glance with Prentys Tully, the master of laws. Lord Tully said, “Do you mean to claim the Iron Throne for yourself, then?”
This Lord Rogar denied vehemently. “Never. Do you take me for a usurper? I want only what is best for the Seven Kingdoms. No harm need come to Jaehaerys. We can send him to Oldtown, to the Citadel. He is a bookish boy, a maester’s chain will suit him.”
“Then who shall sit the Iron Throne?” demanded Lord Celtigar.
“Princess Aerea,” Lord Rogar answered at once. “There is a fire in her Jaehaerys does not have. She is young, but I can continue as her Hand, shape her, guide her, teach her all she must know. She has the stronger claim, her mother and father were King Aenys’s first and secondborn, Jaehaerys was fourth.” His fist slammed against the table then, Benifer tells us. “Her mother will support her. Queen Rhaena. And Rhaena has a dragon.”

As Master of Laws Prentys is rather likely to assume the worst of Lord Rogar if considers his own blood claim to the Iron Throne as a cousin of Aegon the Conqueror's grandchildren (half second cousin, to be exact), not just a random lord willing to usurp the throne without a blood claim. Especially if you keep in mind that this was barely 50 years after the Conquest, at a time when the desire of the great houses who once ruled their domains as kings (the Lannisters, Arryns, and Starks) would have still been rather high - the idea that Tully thought that Rogar Baratheon could intend to lay claim to the Iron Throne as a random lord who happened to be the Hand and the Protector of the Realm is just not very likely. If he had done - or had this been considered - then they would not only have been threatened by a Targaryen revolt from the still living descendants of the Conqueror, but also from those lords who would not have and accept some Stormlander to rule over them.

But even without that speculation we can, I think, agree on the basis of the belief of Jaehaerys I that Orys Baratheon (and thus all his descendants as well) was a half-brother of Aegon I that the Baratheons were accepted as bastard Targaryen cousins by the highest authority in the Realm. This doesn't confirm that this was truly the case, but it confirms that people believed it to be the case. There are no documents historians or scribes have uncovered that acknowledges Orys Baratheon as Lord Aerion Targaryen's son, but it is believed that this is the case.

Thus we can say that the Orys Baratheon mystery is somewhat closer to resolution than it was been for a long time.

But what about the later Baratheons? Are there other unions between them and House Targaryen? Before the well-known revelation that Princess Rhaelle Targaryen in Robert's grandmother?

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“No,” the old man said. “It must be you. Tell them. The prophecy … my brother’s dream … Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis … Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg’s little girl, she was how they came by it … their father’s mother … she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope … perhaps I wanted to … we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe.

It is noteworthy that Maester Aemon only references the most recent union between the dragon and the stag. He cites Rhaelle as the sole origin of the dragon blood of Robert and his brothers.

The 'House Baratheon appendix' of ADwD also reaffirms this, without mentioning Rhaelle's name, also making it clear that Robert's claim to the Iron Throne goes back to his paternal grandmother:

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In the 283rd year after Aegon’s Conquest, Robert of House Baratheon, Lord of Storm’s End, overthrew the Mad King, Aenys II Targaryen, to win the Iron Throne. His claim to the crown derived from his grandmother, a daughter of King Aegon V Targaryen, though Robert preferred to say his warhammer was his claim.

From FaB we also have Alyssa Velaryon taking a second husband in Lord Rogar Baratheon, thus giving her children Boremund and Jocelyn and all their descendants (it looks as if the ruling branch of House Baratheon is descended from Lord Boremund) whatever Targaryen blood she had (unclear at this point, although she may have had a Targaryen grandmother if the first Daemon Velaryon and Aerion Targaryen's wife Valaena Velaryon - who had a Targaryen mother - were full siblings).

The only other Targaryen-Baratheon union from FaB are Prince Aemon Targaryen and Lady Jocelyn Baratheon, half-aunt and half-nephew, whose descendants eventually took over House Velaryon (if Alyn Velaryon was Laenor Velaryon's son, Laenor's Alyn and Laena's Baela married each other to continue the line of House Velaryon). It is possible that the six daughters of Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower as well as the second Laena Velaryon turn out to be ancestors of certain Targaryens (their daughters could have married the sons of Daeron II) but whether any of those ended up marrying back into the Baratheon family tree to strengthen the dragon blood of that lineage is, at this point, completely unclear. Although it is entirely possible that, say, the second Laena Velaryon were to become the bride of Borros Baratheon's posthumous son.

But why do we speculate about additional Targaryen-Baratheon unions in additions to those we know? Because of Renly Baratheon's rather curious and silly remarks from ACoK:

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Renly shrugged. “Tell me, what right did my brother Robert ever have to the Iron Throne?” He did not wait for an answer. “Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer.”

The idea that the Baratheons didn't acquire the blood of the dragon only two generations ago is also indicated by Lady Olenna's remarks in ASoS:

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Her grandmother snorted. “Gallant, yes, and charming, and very clean. He knew how to dress and he knew how to smile and he knew how to bathe, and somehow he got the notion that this made him fit to be king. The Baratheons have always had some queer notions, to be sure. It comes from their Targaryen blood, I should think.” She sniffed. “They tried to marry me to a Targaryen once, but I soon put an end to that.”

Due to Olenna's advanced age her referring queer notions '[t]he Baratheons have always had' does not make it likely she is only referring to Steffon and his sons there but rather to Baratheons she knew or heard of in her youth, i.e. Lyonel and Ormund and whoever else was running around back then.

Renly must know who his own grandmother was, so he is not making sense there. It might be that he wanted to weaken Catelyn's claim that Stannis had the better legal claim to the Iron Throne, but the interesting question in this context is whether Renly's case about 'weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters' is based on any reality? Where there such weddings, and if so, did they really happen about a hundred years ago, or is this how as 'learned' a person as Renly refers to Alyssa Velaryon and Rogar Baratheon and Aemon Targaryen and Jocelyn Baratheon? If so, he is way off the mark since neither of those qualifies as 'a second son' or an 'elder daughter' (we don't know whether Alyssa had any sisters, but we do know that Jocelyn was the youngest child of Lord Rogar).

In fact, I'm quite vexed by the talk of 'second sons and elder daughters'. What's that supposed to even mean? Are we talking about Targaryens who were second sons who married an older Targaryen daughter? Or an elder Targaryen daughter who married a second son of House Baratheon? Considering there is no talk at this point of a Ruling Lady of House Baratheon married to a Targaryen prince who was a second son (and this scenario seems to be completely out of the question with the present Targaryen family tree in mind) one would imagine we would be talking about an elder daughter of House Targaryen who married a second son of House Baratheon from whom, in turn, Robert and his brothers are ultimately descended.

Is such a setting even possible in the family tree that we know at this point?

If work our way back the first unknown in the family tree are Duncan and Jenny - they could have had sons and daughters both, children that were deliberately omitted from the family tree to not spoil Dunk & Egg or events in the main series. But their children would be born too late and we also do know that Steffon Baratheon's wife was an Estermont, not some Targaryen. The same would go for the hypothetical sons or grandsons of Prince Maegor Targaryen, for a widowed Daenora Targaryen and for Vaella Targaryen, the daughter of Daeron the Drunk. She was born in 222 AC and is thus too young to be the mother of Ormund Baratheon (who is at this point not confirmed as son of the Laughing Storm - he could his grandson or even a nephew) who married himself in 245 AC. She would also not really count as an 'elder sister'. Egg's sister Princess Daella could technically be the mother of Ormund Baratheon, and she could have married into House Baratheon (although I don't believe that to be the case).

And thus we are basically done. There are no other Targaryen daughters left whose marriage status is unknown.

The only girls we have left to play with would be Elaena Targaryen's Penrose daughters - Laena, Jocelyn, and Joy (the names indicate that they might be descendants of Laena Velaryon and Jocelyn Baratheon through the female line). But since the boy Robin Penrose was the oldest child of Elaena by Ronnel Penrose neither of them really qualify as 'an elder daughter'. Still, it is possible that one of those daughters was married either to Lyonel Baratheon or his son or brother (if Ormund isn't a son but rather a grandson or nephew of Lyonel).

Such a union would also more or less qualify as having taken place about a hundred years before the series.

Another idea would be a repetition of the Alyssa Velaryon situation, i.e. a dowager queen taking a Lord or heir of Storm's End as second husband - Aegon III's wife and queen Daenaera Velaryon could do something like that. She is scarcely older than Borros Baratheon's posthumous son, for instance. True, Daenera herself is definitely a rather obscure Targaryen descendant herself, but as a queen she was rather close to the Iron Throne, anyway. This could also be done with a dowager queen Aelinor Penrose who, becoming a widow in 221 AC, could marry Ormund Baratheon's father in the 220s. As a cousin of Aerys I she would have at least some Targaryen blood (likely through the daughters of Aegon III's half-sisters). This would be basically the same setting as the idea that the Baratheons are descended from one of Elaena's Penrose girls.

Finally there is the possibility of Velaryon-Baratheon matches on the table - the second Laena Velaryon and, of course, other Velaryon daughters during the centuries. Boremund Baratheon, for instance, certainly would have had the standing to marry a daughter or granddaughter of Lord Daemon Velaryon.

A more obscure idea would be that a Baratheon ends up with some Blackfyre bride - although I've no idea how this could have worked.

But why is this discussion relevant insofar as the writing of the series is concerned?

I think the fact that the blood ties between the Targaryens and Baratheons were clearly unclear by the time ACoK was written casts and interesting light on prophecy stuff, most notably the stuff about the promised prince and Azor Ahai:

By the time of ADwD it is clear that - for House Targaryen at least - the promised prince would be a descendant of King Aerys II and Queen Rhaella. That's what the Ghost of High Heart prophesied. If George had known the details of his prophecy complex - a prophecy or prophecies he has yet to fully include into the text of the books! - by the time he was writing ACoK he would have likely connected that more with both Renly's talk about his Targaryen ancestors and, especially, with Melisandre and Stannis and the entire Azor Ahai story. Mel looks for the savior on Dragonstone but we don't yet know what made her believe that Stannis is the one. AFfC revealed that Stannis is a descendant of Aegon V through Rhaelle, but not of Jaehaerys II or Aerys II and Rhaella. As per the Ghost this definitely disqualifies him as the savior/promised prince.

On a conceptual level all this can - and likely does imply - that the savior/promised prince concept temporarily precedes all the 'prophetic grounding' in bloodlines. Originally we had the concept of a House Targaryen and a House Baratheon that were loosely interrelated due to a couple of marriages that took place in the distant past. But as the story grew this changed. Eventually, the prophesied savior character was put in a very specific bloodline and a very specific point in the family tree (after Aerys II-Rhaella). But those are background details that came later, they were not there yet when Dany hatched the dragon eggs, when the red comet rose, when the shadows came to Dragonstone to stay and Stannis burned the Seven.

It may not even be that the idea of the savior - and Stannis Baratheon as a false savior - was originally supposed to be interconnected with Stannis also being a Targaryen cousin. It could have been just George playing with the false savior theme set against a real savior - just as he is also playing with the idea of a real hidden prince against/or connected with the idea of a fake hidden prince. Stannis is introduced as the champion of a priestess from a foreign land, following a foreign religion. As ACoK progresses - especially with the House of the Undying - and even more so in ASoS there appear connections and ties between those concepts, but I don't think it makes sense for us to believe or assume that those things were all there from the start.

If they had been there we would have seen a much stronger focus of the kinship between Targaryen and Baratheon back in AGoT and also in ACoK - both because the close kinship between Robert and Rhaegar would have made the entire war more tragic (and the enmity and rivalry much more poignant) and because this would have provided an ideal background for the introduction of the false savior plot line around Stannis. But there is very little of this there, even in ASoS.

I think this should be kept in mind when discussing all that prophecy stuff and the meaning of how certain characters are related to each other.

It also may cast a light on the Rhaegar-Lyanna thing insofar as one might come to conclusion that it is misguided or even wrong to stress or focus on the union of bloodlines in the production of saviors or dragon heads or promised princes and overlook what likely was (and still is) at the heart of the author in all that - the actual romance/relationship/interaction of the characters he created, not so much from what kind of bloodline they came or how exactly their family tree looks like. Such trivial details come later. And, yeah, this post was still (and very deliberately) about such trivial details...

[Tyrion1991]

Do any houses like Hightower and Velaryon have a claim to the throne through Targaryen marriage?

[Aemon Darkbrother]

It's really that simple, Renly's words are inconsistent because George hadn't actually worked out a definitive Baratheon family tree. He just knew that the there was going to be additional unions of the dragon and the stag, after Orys.  

Personally I'm of the mind that magical kings blood is really just dragonblood. Hence princess Rhaelles blood in Stannis has actual significance outside of the political , namely in regards to Mel of course.  

[Emperor Stannis]

The whole King's blood thing is kind of weird. I also originally thought it was just Targaryen blood, yet some people claim that Mance's son and Asha have "King's blood", despite the fact they have no connection to the Targaryens.

[White26]

I also for a long time wondered if there is something behind this line:

Robert sat down again.

- "Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon."

- "You had the better claim, Your Grace."

Could it mean that Arryns and Starks alos have Targaryen blood, some distant marriages, or it only mean that he had the better claim because he was related to Targaryens and they not?

In the first outline of ASOIAF there were supposed to be more persons with a claim to Iron Throne. Jamie was supposed to be king after Joffrey killing everyone with better claim than his. So who knows. 

I also wonder if this line will have something to do with how the show ended...

[Emperor Stannis]

1 hour ago, White26 said:

I also for a long time wondered if there is something behind this line:

Robert sat down again.

- "Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon."

- "You had the better claim, Your Grace."

Could it mean that Arryns and Starks alos have Targaryen blood, some distant marriages, or it only mean that he had the better claim because he was related to Targaryens and they not?

In the first outline of ASOIAF there were supposed to be more persons with a claim to Iron Throne. Jamie was supposed to be king after Joffrey killing everyone with better claim than his. So who knows. 

I also wonder if this line will have something to do with how the show ended...

I am pretty sure it just means Ned and Jon weren't related to the Targaryens. The Targaryens have intermarried with the Arryns but none of their issue became Lord of the Eyrie. Alas the Targaryen family (and thus the Baratheons) have some Arryn blood in them, though Aemma Arryn, Rheanyra's mother.

[White26]

But then, Ned could say "We had no claim to the throne" so it is not that sure and left open to interpretation.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

3 hours ago, Emperor Stannis said:

The whole King's blood thing is kind of weird. I also originally thought it was just Targaryen blood, yet some people claim that Mance's son and Asha have "King's blood", despite the fact they have no connection to the Targaryens.

The Targaryens are not the only kings

Asha is the daughter of a king, while Mance himself was a king.

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Do any houses like Hightower and Velaryon have a claim to the throne through Targaryen marriage?

If the Velaryons of today are direct descendants of Alyn Velaryon and Baela Targaryen - and this seems to be the case - then, yes, they do have a claim to the Iron Throne. Three, in fact, since Alyn is legitimized as a son of Laenor Velaryon, the son of Princess Rhaenys, whereas Baela is the daughter of Laenor's sister and Daemon Targaryen. They would have an older claim from before the Conquest when at least one other Targaryen woman married into the family from whom they seem to be descended, but that would be a rather distant ancestry.

The six daughters of Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower would also have claims, of course, and through them all their descendants would have claims as well. At this point we have no idea who those people are, though. What's effectively confirmed is that the Penroses did have Targaryen blood even before Elaena married Ronnel since Aelinor Penrose is confirmed as Aerys I cousin on the Targaryen side. This means she is likely either descended from one of the six Targaryen-Hightower daughters or, a new possibility from FaB, from the second Laena Velaryon, the oldest child of Alyn and Baela.

Now we also know that Garmund Hightower is the third son of Lord Ormund and the youngest brother of Lord Lyonel. It is very unlikely that he continued the main line of House Hightower - that's the job of Lyonel's bastard sons by Lady Sam Tarly who were eventually legitimized after they married. But considering Lady Sam's ambitions I'd not be surprised at all if one of the younger daughters of Garmund and Rhaena (they are not yet married by 136 AC, and might not be for a couple of years, and we can reasonably assume that their six daughters are born over a longer period of time, say, a decade or so) was married to their first cousin once removed, i.e. to Sam's and Lyonel's grandson, the boy named Jon Hightower in the Hightower appendix of the MUSH (b. 152 AC), who also seems to be the same Jon Hightower who shortly served Aegon IV as Hand and who brought Serenei of Lys to court.

Considering the age issues around the Penroses chances are not that low that the second Laena Velaryon turns out to be the mother of Ronnel Penrose with Aerys I's queen Aelinor Penrose being Ronnel's daughter by a first wife (possibly one of the Hightower daughters) only for him to marry Princess Elaena after said was dead. Who the other Hightower daughters married is completely unclear, but my guess is to look for descendants among the families of wives of Daeron II's other sons - which would mean that Jena Dondarrion, Alys Arryn, and Dyanna Dayne could also be descendants of Garmund and Rhaena. This is especially convincing in the case of Jena since it seems to be a huge stretch that the Prince of Dragonstone be married to a Dondarrion without this causing some kind of uproar - an uproar that may not have happened if said Dondarrion was a Targaryen descendant herself. Egg's marriage to Betha Blackwood (a more prestigious house than the Dondarrions with close ties to the court and the royal family through Brynden Rivers) only didn't cause uproar because Egg was at the very end of the line of succession in 220 AC. But Baelor Breakspear was the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne when he married Jena Dondarrion.

But there are of course enough Targaryen-Hightower daughters around for some of them to marry into House Baratheon (which, of course, also some of the Penrose daughters by Princess Elaena could have done).

7 hours ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

It's really that simple, Renly's words are inconsistent because George hadn't actually worked out a definitive Baratheon family tree. He just knew that the there was going to be additional unions of the dragon and the stag, after Orys.  

Personally I'm of the mind that magical kings blood is really just dragonblood. Hence princess Rhaelles blood in Stannis has actual significance outside of the political , namely in regards to Mel of course.  

With the magic of 'king's blood' you raise another interesting point connected to my case about the sequence of events/development of themes above. George has confirmed that the magic of king's blood is a play with the medieval concept about this kind of thing - a thing that's also prevalent in many fantasy novels. But did he first have the idea of the magic of king's blood or first the explanation why the blood of his kings (or rather: some of them) was magical? I'd say it was the former.

If you look at Tolkien you also have the magic of king's blood in Aragorn - who could heal with his hands like the English kings of the middle ages were supposed to be able to do. But it is quite clear that this *magical trait* is not something that comes with a crown but is an inherent quality of Aragorn's magical bloodline, i.e. his descent for Melian the Maia and Lúthien on the one side, and Ingwe, Finwe, Fingolfin, Turgon, etc. on the other. The magic - divinity, even, if you count Melian as a divine/angelic being - in his blood is what made him and his ancestors first kings of Númenor and the Arnor and Gondor.

In Westeros we have the dragon kings who are also not riding dragons or hatching dragons from petrified eggs because all that comes with a crown, but the crown comes with the power the magical ability to hatch and ride dragons grants them.

In that sense, the magic of king's blood is actually the magic of the blood of the dragon in Westeros, just as the magic of king's blood in Middle-earth can actually be broken down to the magic in the blood of the descendants of Half-Elves.

5 hours ago, White26 said:

I also for a long time wondered if there is something behind this line:

Robert sat down again.

- "Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon."

- "You had the better claim, Your Grace."

Could it mean that Arryns and Starks alos have Targaryen blood, some distant marriages, or it only mean that he had the better claim because he was related to Targaryens and they not?

In the first outline of ASOIAF there were supposed to be more persons with a claim to Iron Throne. Jamie was supposed to be king after Joffrey killing everyone with better claim than his. So who knows. 

I also wonder if this line will have something to do with how the show ended...

People speculated a lot whether this implied any distant kinship between the Targaryens and Starks or Arryns, but at this point there is no indication for that. Of course, we cannot rule out some distant kinship while we don't know the entire Velaryon family tree including all the male and female branches, or into what families the various Baratheons married into. Also, the six Targaryen-Hightowers and various Targaryen-Plumms, Targaryen-Penroses, and Targaryen-Martells are unaccounted for.

But it is quite clear that neither the Starks nor the Arryns have acquired any Targaryen blood through a direct marriage between the two houses.

[Aemon Darkbrother]

13 hours ago, White26 said:

I also for a long time wondered if there is something behind this line:

Robert sat down again.

- "Damn you, Ned Stark. You and Jon Arryn, I loved you both. What have you done to me? You were the one should have been king, you or Jon."

- "You had the better claim, Your Grace."

Could it mean that Arryns and Starks alos have Targaryen blood, some distant marriages, or it only mean that he had the better claim because he was related to Targaryens and they not?

In the first outline of ASOIAF there were supposed to be more persons with a claim to Iron Throne. Jamie was supposed to be king after Joffrey killing everyone with better claim than his. So who knows. 

I also wonder if this line will have something to do with how the show ended...

House Strong comes to mind. 

George tells us a tale of a son of Rhaenyra who forges a strong bond with Eddard's ancestors. While we know the prince ultimately losses his life, the whole forbidden union angle between him and Sara Snow is so very reminiscent of Jon's possible origin that you can't help but wonder. Did a descendant of Sara find they're way back into the main branch of house Stark?

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In that sense, the magic of king's blood is actually the magic of the blood of the dragon in Westeros, just as the magic of king's blood in Middle-earth can actually be broken down to the magic in the blood of the descendants of Half-Elves.

Yeah you can see how it would be such an easy thing for GRRM to conflate the two, king's blood and magic blood.

15 hours ago, Emperor Stannis said:

The whole King's blood thing is kind of weird. I also originally thought it was just Targaryen blood, yet some people claim that Mance's son and Asha have "King's blood", despite the fact they have no connection to the Targaryens.

Yes Mance is an interesting one to tackle. Pure speculation here but I often wonder if magic in Asoiaf really is just one thing with many names. More specifically if we're talking magic blood could we really be talking blood of valaryia or even something similar but even older? The children with their arguably reptilian features masked in mammalian language and their pale hair and wild beauty, is it possible that to have the blood of the first men is no different than to have the blood of our Targaryen/ Baratheon kings? Dala and Val who are supposedly strong with the blood of the fist men, where does their beauty really come from? Or even if one looks to Craster, with his pale hair , sheepskin clothing and incestuous lifestyle could the blood of the dragon flow through him? Is "Kings blood" strong in the north? Belief is a funny thing when it comes to magic. How many people have to believe your king before the magic sets in? Is it really Mances kingship that gives Aemon Steelsong his power? Did jon really remove "Kingsblood" from the equation by placing baby Monster in Mel's hands?

 

[Lord Varys]

4 minutes ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

House Strong comes to mind. 

George tells us a tale of a son of Rhaenyra who forges a strong bond with Eddard's ancestors. While we know the prince ultimately losses his life, the whole forbidden union angle between him and Sara Snow is so very reminiscent of Jon's possible origin that you can't help but wonder. Did a descendant of Sara find they're way back into the main branch of house Stark?

Would be very odd if it did - but the story definitely makes it clear that hot Stark-Targaryen sex was, perhaps, not unheard of prior to Rhaegar and Lyanna. Not to mention that Egg may also lay some, well, dragon eggs if he ever visits Winterfell...

4 minutes ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

Yeah you can see how it would be such an easy thing for GRRM to conflate the two, king's blood and magic blood.

I don't think it is a conflation, it is rather that a real world medieval concept (which has been used in other fantasy novels) made it into his story, where it is framed and interpreted in a medieval way - i.e. as the magical power of king's blood, because being king is something very special in this world (like in our world, being crowned king means you go through a sacred ritual where your person is transformed and set apart from 'lesser men', etc.).

Beneath that there is also another explanation which, in case of the Targaryen and Baratheon kings of Westeros is that they come from a lineage of people who have 'the blood of the dragon' which, while originally having nothing to do with a medieval monarchy (Valyria was a Freehold without kings), helped them to establish themselves as kings in Westeros.

Those Westerosi believing in king's blood and the Targaryens and their descendants being different from lesser men (something that goes back to the blood of the dragon they acquired back in Valyria) conflate the fact that their royal family has 'special magical blood' with the idea that what makes them special has something to do with them wearing crowns and being kings.

But they would have exactly the same blood if they were not kings. They could (and did) ride dragons back in Valyria as well. They are not changed or become special blood because they become kings - just as no men in our world actually change in some coronation ritual.

4 minutes ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

Yes Mance is an interesting one to tackle. Pure speculation here but I often wonder if magic in Asoiaf really is just one thing with many names. More specifically if we're talking magic blood could we really be talking blood of valaryia or even something similar but even older? The children with their arguably reptilian features masked in mammalian language and their pale hair and wild beauty, is it possible that to have the blood of the first men is no different than to have the blood of our Targaryen/ Baratheon kings? Dala and Val who are supposedly strong with the blood of the fist men, where does their beauty really come from? Or even if one looks to Craster, with his pale hair , sheepskin clothing and incestuous lifestyle could the blood of the dragon flow through him? Is "Kings blood" strong in the north? Belief is a funny thing when it comes to magic. How many people have to believe your king before the magic sets in? Is it really Mances kingship that gives Aemon Steelsong his power? Did jon really remove "Kingsblood" from the equation by placing baby Monster in Mel's hands?

The wildlings don't really have the same concept of hereditary kingship as the people of the Seven Kingdoms. They have no use for a concept like king's blood. Dalla and Val to me just underline the fact that Mance as the most powerful wildling could have the best women - i.e. the most beautiful, the healthiest, etc.

Melisandre seems to know that Stannis has the blood of the dragon, but even if she didn't know that - it is quite clear that blood magic and blood sacrifice do work regardless who the sacrificed person is. And if the Azor Ahai story teaches us anything, then that personal sacrifice - i.e. the killing of a loved one or family member - is most effective.

That is likely also why 

Spoiler

Euron Greyjoy intends to sacrifice both his brother Aeron as well as his former mistress Falia Flowers who is carrying Euron's own child.

That indicates likely that whatever spell is going to be worked with those sacrifices is going to be rather powerful.

[Aemon Darkbrother]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think it is a conflation, it is rather that a real world medieval concept (which has been used in other fantasy novels) made it into his story, where it is framed and interpreted in a medieval way - i.e. as the magical power of king's blood, because being king is something very special in this world (like in our world, being crowned king means you go through a sacred ritual where your person is transformed and set apart from 'lesser men', etc.).

 

Sorry I was on the phone typing, I should have been clearer. What I meant to say was that I suspected George was/is purposefully conflating these ideas. Kingsblood = Magic blood Magic blood= Dragon Blood and Dragon blood/Cotf Blood= Same thing. The real world/in world medieval concept serving as a cover for such truths.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Would be very odd if it did - but the story definitely makes it clear that hot Stark-Targaryen sex was, perhaps, not unheard of prior to Rhaegar and Lyanna. Not to mention that Egg may also lay some, well, dragon eggs if he ever visits Winterfell...

It's true that the history is too unclear at the moment to find any more clues of substance on the matter. The tale of Jace's trip up north does seem to add weight behind Eddard's words to Robert. Words that frankly I wouldn't take lightly considering Robert's own ties to the dragon. If one found that line of dialogue to be taken literally, if not by Ned, then by our author, this union would be an excellent place to point as the parallel to Jon's possible conception are definitely there. We can only glean so much from a story told from the perspective of southern gossip and the only real places we can hope to learn anymore would be through a future Bran POV or, as you say, Dunk n Egg. 

[The hairy bear]

On 7/24/2019 at 2:56 AM, Lord Varys said:

Renly must know who his own grandmother was, so he is not making sense there. It might be that he wanted to weaken Catelyn's claim that Stannis had the better legal claim to the Iron Throne, but the interesting question in this context is whether Renly's case about 'weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters' is based on any reality

Renly is only 21. Both his parents died the year he was born. He lives in a court where the Targaryens are anathema and no one would dare to remark that the Baratheon's grandmother was one. And he is more interested towards tourneys and martial prowesses than books and lineages.

Renly surely knows who was his grandmother. But he may not know the year she was married, or when she was born.

I'm saying all this because I think that the quote

"Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer.”

could be Renlys inaccurate, exaggerated way to refer to the union of Ormund and Rhaelle.

I suggest this because if someone had to bring up a wedding to justify Roberts ascension to the throne, it had to be that one. The problems here are that Rhaelle would not be the eldest daughter (Saera was older), and the wedding was not a hundred years past (only 55 years past). But I think that those inaccuracies could be attributed to Renly's not knowing the facts exactly (this "talk" would have happened when Renly was 5, and it's an issue that wouldn't be much discussed later) and him wanting to diminish the importance of Robert's lineage in order to make his point.

 

On 7/24/2019 at 2:56 AM, Lord Varys said:

Are there other unions between them and House Targaryen? Before the well-known revelation that Princess Rhaelle Targaryen in Robert's grandmother?

I'd say it's likely, because Baela's Velaryons, Rhaena's Hightowers, and Elaenna's Plumms and Penroses must have married somewhere.

The Penroses seem to be a good option, because they are bannermen to the Baratheons, and Elaena had three daughters. The temporal window is narrow, though. The World Book says that Elaenna's second marriage was done at King Daeron's behest, so it couldn't happen before 184. That means Laena Penrose (the first girl) would be born at 185 at the earliest, and could not marry before year 200. Therefore, she couldn't be Lyonel's mother (he was jousting at Ashford at 209), but she could be her wife and/or Ormund's mother.

On 7/24/2019 at 2:56 AM, Lord Varys said:

 It is possible that the six daughters of Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower as well as the second Laena Velaryon turn out to be ancestors of certain Targaryens (their daughters could have married the sons of Daeron II)

It certainly seems a good bet. Perhaps with the exception of Maekar's wife, since George once implied that House Dayne had no Targaryen ancestors.

On 7/24/2019 at 1:07 PM, White26 said:

But then, Ned could say "We had no claim to the throne" so it is not that sure and left open to interpretation.

But perhaps Ned wanted to remark that Robert had the best claim in all Westeros, not only in relation to him and Jon.

It's hard to see how a Targ-Stark union could exist. Fire and Blood 1 showed that none took place before 136. And the World Book brought us the family tree of the Starks since Cregan's grandfather, complete with the wives of all the Lords of Winterfell. It is true that the Targ ancestor could come from the lines of some of the Stark wives (such as Marna Locke or Arya Flint), but I can't see how a Taragaryen lady could end up marrying second rate houses in the distant North.

[Lord Varys]

10 hours ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

Sorry I was on the phone typing, I should have been clearer. What I meant to say was that I suspected George was/is purposefully conflating these ideas. Kingsblood = Magic blood Magic blood= Dragon Blood and Dragon blood/Cotf Blood= Same thing. The real world/in world medieval concept serving as a cover for such truths.

Yeah, I'd agree with that more or less. My caveat would be that I really don't see anything about the blood of the Children of the Forest being a special thing. The talents of greenseeing and skinchanging don't seem to pop up frequently in particular bloodlines. While the Targaryens still had dragons every generation brought forth multiple dragonriders and no Targaryen who wanted to claim a dragon failed to establish a bond. But we don't hear about there being a high(er) concentration of skinchangers and greenseers among the Starks.

There is a chance that the crannogmen have Children of the Forest among their ancestors, but whether this gave them an innate magical potential (like Jojen's green dreams) or whether it allowed them to preserve certain magical techniques and traditions they learned from the Children remains to be seen. It is also quite clear that there are no skinchanger families or dynasties among the wildlings - and despite the fact that the skinchangers are always ostracized and forced to leave the company of normal people to live among their own kind they still fail to produce more skinchangers by breeding among their own.

Finally, we have Bloodraven and the Children use statistics to explain the gift of skinchangers and greenseers to Bran. They don't talk about special blood but simple probability and chance.

10 hours ago, Aemon Darkbrother said:

It's true that the history is too unclear at the moment to find any more clues of substance on the matter. The tale of Jace's trip up north does seem to add weight behind Eddard's words to Robert. Words that frankly I wouldn't take lightly considering Robert's own ties to the dragon. If one found that line of dialogue to be taken literally, if not by Ned, then by our author, this union would be an excellent place to point as the parallel to Jon's possible conception are definitely there. We can only glean so much from a story told from the perspective of southern gossip and the only real places we can hope to learn anymore would be through a future Bran POV or, as you say, Dunk n Egg. 

The problem with the idea of there being a child of Sara Snow and Jacaerys Velaryon is that if such a child existed - and Mushroom's story of there having been a marriage - would mean that this child would already be about a year old by the time Aegon III was crowned. But as the child of Rhaenyra's oldest son Sara's son or daughter would have as good or even a better claim to the Iron Throne than Aegon III had. Why didn't Lord Cregan insist to crown his nephew or niece instead of Aegon the Younger? And if the child was female why didn't he insist it be married to Aegon III instead of Jaehaera? Or at least be chosen as bride for the young king after Jaehaera's early death?

I think we should not read Ned's quote there as indication that Ned himself had a claim to the throne, but that Robert's claim was the best claims of all the claimants that were out there besides the surviving Targaryens and other cousins they may have had. The Penroses and Tarths and Plumms and Martells certainly all also had claims. And Jon Arryn actually could have had a claim if he the marriage of Alys Arryn and Rhaegel Targaryen indicates that the Arryns are descended from either Baela's or Rhaena's descendants. It would be a very remote claim but a claim nonetheless.

However, despite us knowing the family tree of the Starks there is still the possibility that the Starks are also descended from the same child of Baela or Rhaena the Arryns would be. If the second Laena Velaryon married an Arryn (or one of the daughters of Rhaena) then one of her Arryn daughters could have married into House Royce, producing Beron Stark's wife Lorra Royce, the ancestor of the present Stark generation. Such a transfer is also possible for one of the ladies of Winterfell ruling in the North. If a Mormont can win a younger Hightower daughter at a tourney, then another northern lord could also marry one of the younger daughters of Garmund Hightower (himself only a third son) and Rhaena Targaryen.

And there are also speculations that Melantha Blackwood might be descended from one of Bloodraven's full siblings - Mya and Gwenys. In fact, we should also include these two in our deliberations. They are great bastards themselves, and they would have been legitimized by Aegon IV's decree. And as sisters to a man loyal to Daeron II who later also served as Hand they could have actually made rather prestigious matches.

Considering that both girls are actually older than Bloodraven we can count the oldest of them, apparently Mya, as an 'elder sister' if we consider Renly's quote, meaning this Mya Rivers/Targaryen could actually be the mother of the Laughing Storm if she married into House Baratheon. And if that guy was only a second son who later became the heir to Storm's End (that Lord Baratheon celebrates the birth of a grandson in 200 AC implies the man was rather old at the time, with him possibly not being the father of Lyonel). If that was the case then this scenario could actually be the 'elder daughter' of House Targaryen who married a second son of House Baratheon, eventually strengthening their claim because the later generations of House Baratheon are descended from that second son.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Renly is only 21. Both his parents died the year he was born. He lives in a court where the Targaryens are anathema and no one would dare to remark that the Baratheon's grandmother was one. And he is more interested towards tourneys and martial prowesses than books and lineages.

Renly surely knows who was his grandmother. But he may not know the year she was married, or when she was born.

One can try to explain it away in this way, but I don't think this flies. I think there is no chance that a grown-up member of the royal family doesn't know who his paternal grandmother was. It is also a stretch to pretend the Targaryens were anathema at the court - Robert lived in the Targaryen castle in the Targaryen city and sat on the Targaryen throne, and his dynasty very much continued as they had before. There is no real break with the past - just as, we presume, all Orys Baratheon changed when he took over the Stormlands was the name. Everything else remained the same.

You also have to keep in mind that Renly grew up at Storm's End (as far as we know), the castle he later ruled in his own right. And there is no reason to believe that the grave of Princess Rhaelle Targaryen, married Lady Rhaelle Baratheon, is not directly besides whatever graves were made for Lord Steffon and Lady Cassana.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I'm saying all this because I think that the quote

"Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer.”

could be Renlys inaccurate, exaggerated way to refer to the union of Ormund and Rhaelle.

I'd say it is a hint that the author hadn't yet decided that he would give Robert and his brothers as recently a Targaryen ancestor as they have. Because it would have been rather easy to reference Rhaelle in a rather dismissive manner - sort of along the lines 'My grandmother was some daughter of Aegon V, but we all know that Robert won the throne by beating Rhaegar to pulp, not because his blood claim was so strong.' That would have had the same quality but would have been much more accurate.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

The Penroses seem to be a good option, because they are bannermen to the Baratheons, and Elaena had three daughters. The temporal window is narrow, though. The World Book says that Elaenna's second marriage was done at King Daeron's behest, so it couldn't happen before 184. That means Laena Penrose (the first girl) would be born at 185 at the earliest, and could not marry before year 200. Therefore, she couldn't be Lyonel's mother (he was jousting at Ashford at 209), but she could be her wife and/or Ormund's mother.

Yeah, that was my thinking there, too. Lyonel could have taken one of the Penrose girls to wife. However, it would also work if Laena Penrose, the eldest, did not marry Lyonel but his younger brother, who could then be the father or grandfather of Ormund. We only know that Lyonel had a daughter, not that he had son(s). And the fact that Ormund seems to have had only one child (Steffon) strongly implies he was a rather young fellow when he married the equally young Rhaelle in 245 AC, meaning he is likely of the generation of Lyonel's grandchildren or a son he fathered late in life on a second or third wife. But if Ormund were to be descended from a second son then this could also meet the criteria of 'elder daughter' and 'second son'.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

It certainly seems a good bet. Perhaps with the exception of Maekar's wife, since George once implied that House Dayne had no Targaryen ancestors.

He could have changed his mind there ... or Dyanna Dayne is another Aemma Arryn, meaning the only (surviving) scion of a Targaryen-Hightower/Velaryon union who was then absorbed back into the Targaryen family tree without there being any further offspring from that union. It could also be that this would be a cadet branch Dayne, anyway, sort of like Garmund and Rhaena make up a cadet branch of House Hightower.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

But perhaps Ned wanted to remark that Robert had the best claim in all Westeros, not only in relation to him and Jon.

Yeah, also a case I made above. The strength of Robert's claim compared to the strength of the claims of the Targaryen cousins from House Tarth, Penrose, Plumm, Martell, Velaryon, etc.

2 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

It's hard to see how a Targ-Stark union could exist. Fire and Blood 1 showed that none took place before 136. And the World Book brought us the family tree of the Starks since Cregan's grandfather, complete with the wives of all the Lords of Winterfell. It is true that the Targ ancestor could come from the lines of some of the Stark wives (such as Marna Locke or Arya Flint), but I can't see how a Taragaryen lady could end up marrying second rate houses in the distant North.

As I laid out above this could actually work with the Targaryen-Hightower girls, especially by means of Lorra Royce or possibly Melantha Blackwood. But since Jorah got a daughter of Lord Hightower for a bride, a Locke could also marry, say, the youngest daughter of the third son of a long-dead Lord of Oldtown.

But I'm not particularly convinced that George wants to go down this route. If he wanted, he would have likely given us a Targaryen princess marrying into House Manderly after all. Such unions were on the table two times and nothing came of that.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

Quote

“Dragonseeds, they call them,” Jaehaerys said with obvious reluctance. “It is not a thing to boast of, but it has happened, mayhaps more often than we would care to admit. Such children are cherished, though. Orys Baratheon himself was a dragonseed, a bastard brother to our grandsire. Whether he was conceived of a first night I cannot say, but Lord Aerion was his father, that was well-known. Gifts were given…”

Out of topic but is it confirmation that Orys's mother is smallfolk/slave since Jaehaerys doesn't exclude possibility of first night? If Orys's mother was Westerosi/Valyrian noble  Jaehaerys would know that. Baratheon could be where Orys's mother was from or name of Valyrian god.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Out of topic but is it confirmation that Orys's mother is smallfolk/slave since Jaehaerys doesn't exclude possibility of first night? If Orys's mother was Westerosi/Valyrian noble  Jaehaerys would know that. Baratheon could be where Orys's mother was from or name of Valyrian god.

If Orys Baratheon was a dragonseed fathered in a first night then chances are not that bad that he comes from a smallfolk background. I don't think slave, since the Targaryens would not need the first night or any other excuse to make out with their slaves - not to mention the times for slaves on Dragonstone should have been over by the time of Lord Aerion.

Both the name 'Orys' as well as the name 'Baratheon' sound Valyrian, so it seems he comes from a modest Valyrian family. The first night is not necessarily limited to lord and smallfolk, but could also involve, one assumes, modest Dragonstonian nobility - say, the family of some sworn sword, retainer, petty lord, etc. - and their relation to their dragonlord masters. But it is certainly possible that 'Baratheon' was the name of a servant or official or craftsmen family with Valyrian roots. Aenar the Exile didn't only take Valyrian nobility with him to Dragonstone.

If Orys was a dragonseed conceived in a first night this would cast an interesting light on the situation. It seems to me that in the Seven Kingdoms the children fathered in a first night are not born as bastards. Bastard are children born out of wedlock, and the first night means the mother of the child does have a husband who simply doesn't have the right to claim her maidenhead. Considering that it is not necessarily easy to determine who fathered a child on a woman who was claimed a by a lord in first night if the child resembled the mother and the husband took a day or a week after the lord.

In that sense, the idea would be that an Orys Baratheon conceived in a first night would actually bear the family name of his legal father not his mother. Lord Aerion Targaryen never officially acknowledged or legitimized the child, but the gifts that were given would imply that he clandestinely or privately acknowledged the boy as his seed. If that is what happened it would still not be proof that Lord Aerion was right - Orys didn't have Valyrian hair (although he may have had Valyrian eyes if those black eyes of his actually mean dark purple eyes), and if the husband of Orys' mother also shared her bed around the time of his conception he could have been the father, too.

And I think we should extend that to all 'bastards' fathered in a first night, even those in the Seven Kingdoms. Those children were not fathered on unmarried women or women who committed adultery. Instead, they were doing something that was in accordance with Westerosi customs and laws. If a lord claiming his right of first night later declared the child his and took it to be raised as his bastard he or she may have gotten a bastard name. But if it was raised as the child of the husband it would have been the child of the husband, bearing his name (if he had one).

In fact, we can take Jaehaerys I's story as given by Gyldayn at face value and still don't have to read this is as 'confirmation' that Orys was Lord Aerion's son. Just that the Targaryens had reason to think this was true.

And in general - it doesn't seem that dragonseeds were truly acknowledged the same way bastards were in the Seven Kingdoms. The Targaryens gave lavish gifts to the mothers of such children, but if an army of Waters were running around on Dragonstone it should have been much more evident from what 'dragonseed line' the bastard dragonriders during the Dance were descended. A man like Rennifer Longwaters still knows he is descended from the bastard of a royal princess.

[Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

But Rogar Baratheon is only praised with his roots to Durrandon and Targaryen families. If Orys's adopted father or mother was from Valyrian noble family Glydayn or Yandel would use it for glorification of Rogar and Robert.

[Lord Varys]

28 minutes ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

But Rogar Baratheon is only praised with his roots to Durrandon and Targaryen families. If Orys's adopted father or mother was from Valyrian noble family Glydayn or Yandel would use it for glorification of Rogar and Robert.

It doesn't have to be a 'noble family' as that. The Qoherys family isn't praised or glorified for their Valyrian roots, either, indicating that, while they have a Valyrian name, the are not exactly noteworthy in their own right. And it is quite clear that whatever Baratheons there may have been besides Orys clearly did never anything noteworthy or praiseworthy. Else we would have heard about Baratheon relations of Orys - (half-)siblings, parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts, nephews, nieces, cousins, etc.

But I'm not sure if I expressed this correctly: 'Baratheon' could also be the name of a Valyrian smallfolk family. People who had been modest free citizens back in Valyria and who had been clients of Lord Aenar accompanying him to Dragonstone. The Valyrians were refined and civilized people, very much like the Free Cities are, and you don't have to be have a noble house or a lot of possessions to have a family name.

If it was true that a Targaryen taking his right of the first night was seen as a blessing on Dragonstone, then chances are not that bad that Lord Aerion would have actually not only slept with peasants or fishers who couldn't do anything about, but also with the wives of his own retainers, sworn swords, men-at-arms, officials, etc. In that sense Orys could have a less modest background but that's not really necessary. His parents could have been peasants or fishers or smiths or farmhands, etc. with a Valyrian family name.

But it is quite clear that the name 'Orys Baratheon' is very much Valyrian - just as the names of Orys' grandsons reinforces the fact that the Baratheons of his generation had not yet completely forgotten their Valyrian roots. Rogar (the much better name, in my opinion!) is evocative of 'Rhaegar', Borys is just 'Orys' with a 'b' attached (and another version of the name, Gorys, as in Gorys Edoryen of Volantis, sort of confirm that even more). Orryn is another version/play with 'Orys', one assumes, and Garon isn't that far away from the -on names like 'Daeron', 'Aegon' and so forth. And Ronnal is somewhat evocative of Dany's Rhaegal or Rhaegel.

George should have perhaps reconsidered the name Davos for Rogar's apparent father since that name doesn't sound Valyrian at all. Jocelyn Baratheon also comes completely out of the left field (would have made sense if it had been the name of his mother or his first wife). Boremund doesn't sound bad, and Borros seems to be another variation of the Borys name which seems to be go back to Orys.

By the time of the 3rd century the Baratheons seem to have been routinely using Andal or First Men given names - Lyonel, Ormund, Steffon, Robert don't sound Valyrian at all. Stannis and Renly are somewhat odd, though.

[The Commentator]

On 7/23/2019 at 8:56 PM, Lord Varys said:

@Bael's Bastard asked here when exactly George knew/came up with the idea that Robert Baratheon and his brothers had a rather recent Targaryen ancestor in their paternal grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen (the youngest child of King Aegon V).

The question of the dragon blood of House Baratheon is a rather interesting question - and at the same time very confusing, because there are contradictory statements about this.

The first hint that the Baratheons and Targaryens are interrelated goes back to the 'House Baratheon appendix' of AGoT:

It was long wondered whether Lord Orys was (allegedly) a bastard son of Aegon's father or mother but FaB finally confirmed that the rumors about Orys Baratheon claim he is a bastard son of Lord Aerion Targaryen, Aegon I's father. King Jaehaerys I himself believes the following (according to Archmaester Gyldayn):

 Earlier in the book, when Gyldayn discusses the importance of Lord Rogar Baratheon at court of young Jaehaerys I he states the following:

This makes it clear that in the opinion of Gyldayn at least the claims about Orys Baratheon being a half-brother of Aegon the Conqueror on his father's side gives his descendant the blood of the dragon - and thus a claim to the Iron Throne itself. An opinion that I think is implicitly reflected in this discussion of the Small Council of Jaehaerys I:

As Master of Laws Prentys is rather likely to assume the worst of Lord Rogar if considers his own blood claim to the Iron Throne as a cousin of Aegon the Conqueror's grandchildren (half second cousin, to be exact), not just a random lord willing to usurp the throne without a blood claim. Especially if you keep in mind that this was barely 50 years after the Conquest, at a time when the desire of the great houses who once ruled their domains as kings (the Lannisters, Arryns, and Starks) would have still been rather high - the idea that Tully thought that Rogar Baratheon could intend to lay claim to the Iron Throne as a random lord who happened to be the Hand and the Protector of the Realm is just not very likely. If he had done - or had this been considered - then they would not only have been threatened by a Targaryen revolt from the still living descendants of the Conqueror, but also from those lords who would not have and accept some Stormlander to rule over them.

But even without that speculation we can, I think, agree on the basis of the belief of Jaehaerys I that Orys Baratheon (and thus all his descendants as well) was a half-brother of Aegon I that the Baratheons were accepted as bastard Targaryen cousins by the highest authority in the Realm. This doesn't confirm that this was truly the case, but it confirms that people believed it to be the case. There are no documents historians or scribes have uncovered that acknowledges Orys Baratheon as Lord Aerion Targaryen's son, but it is believed that this is the case.

Thus we can say that the Orys Baratheon mystery is somewhat closer to resolution than it was been for a long time.

But what about the later Baratheons? Are there other unions between them and House Targaryen? Before the well-known revelation that Princess Rhaelle Targaryen in Robert's grandmother?

It is noteworthy that Maester Aemon only references the most recent union between the dragon and the stag. He cites Rhaelle as the sole origin of the dragon blood of Robert and his brothers.

The 'House Baratheon appendix' of ADwD also reaffirms this, without mentioning Rhaelle's name, also making it clear that Robert's claim to the Iron Throne goes back to his paternal grandmother:

From FaB we also have Alyssa Velaryon taking a second husband in Lord Rogar Baratheon, thus giving her children Boremund and Jocelyn and all their descendants (it looks as if the ruling branch of House Baratheon is descended from Lord Boremund) whatever Targaryen blood she had (unclear at this point, although she may have had a Targaryen grandmother if the first Daemon Velaryon and Aerion Targaryen's wife Valaena Velaryon - who had a Targaryen mother - were full siblings).

The only other Targaryen-Baratheon union from FaB are Prince Aemon Targaryen and Lady Jocelyn Baratheon, half-aunt and half-nephew, whose descendants eventually took over House Velaryon (if Alyn Velaryon was Laenor Velaryon's son, Laenor's Alyn and Laena's Baela married each other to continue the line of House Velaryon). It is possible that the six daughters of Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower as well as the second Laena Velaryon turn out to be ancestors of certain Targaryens (their daughters could have married the sons of Daeron II) but whether any of those ended up marrying back into the Baratheon family tree to strengthen the dragon blood of that lineage is, at this point, completely unclear. Although it is entirely possible that, say, the second Laena Velaryon were to become the bride of Borros Baratheon's posthumous son.

But why do we speculate about additional Targaryen-Baratheon unions in additions to those we know? Because of Renly Baratheon's rather curious and silly remarks from ACoK:

The idea that the Baratheons didn't acquire the blood of the dragon only two generations ago is also indicated by Lady Olenna's remarks in ASoS:

Due to Olenna's advanced age her referring queer notions '[t]he Baratheons have always had' does not make it likely she is only referring to Steffon and his sons there but rather to Baratheons she knew or heard of in her youth, i.e. Lyonel and Ormund and whoever else was running around back then.

Renly must know who his own grandmother was, so he is not making sense there. It might be that he wanted to weaken Catelyn's claim that Stannis had the better legal claim to the Iron Throne, but the interesting question in this context is whether Renly's case about 'weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters' is based on any reality? Where there such weddings, and if so, did they really happen about a hundred years ago, or is this how as 'learned' a person as Renly refers to Alyssa Velaryon and Rogar Baratheon and Aemon Targaryen and Jocelyn Baratheon? If so, he is way off the mark since neither of those qualifies as 'a second son' or an 'elder daughter' (we don't know whether Alyssa had any sisters, but we do know that Jocelyn was the youngest child of Lord Rogar).

In fact, I'm quite vexed by the talk of 'second sons and elder daughters'. What's that supposed to even mean? Are we talking about Targaryens who were second sons who married an older Targaryen daughter? Or an elder Targaryen daughter who married a second son of House Baratheon? Considering there is no talk at this point of a Ruling Lady of House Baratheon married to a Targaryen prince who was a second son (and this scenario seems to be completely out of the question with the present Targaryen family tree in mind) one would imagine we would be talking about an elder daughter of House Targaryen who married a second son of House Baratheon from whom, in turn, Robert and his brothers are ultimately descended.

Is such a setting even possible in the family tree that we know at this point?

If work our way back the first unknown in the family tree are Duncan and Jenny - they could have had sons and daughters both, children that were deliberately omitted from the family tree to not spoil Dunk & Egg or events in the main series. But their children would be born too late and we also do know that Steffon Baratheon's wife was an Estermont, not some Targaryen. The same would go for the hypothetical sons or grandsons of Prince Maegor Targaryen, for a widowed Daenora Targaryen and for Vaella Targaryen, the daughter of Daeron the Drunk. She was born in 222 AC and is thus too young to be the mother of Ormund Baratheon (who is at this point not confirmed as son of the Laughing Storm - he could his grandson or even a nephew) who married himself in 245 AC. She would also not really count as an 'elder sister'. Egg's sister Princess Daella could technically be the mother of Ormund Baratheon, and she could have married into House Baratheon (although I don't believe that to be the case).

And thus we are basically done. There are no other Targaryen daughters left whose marriage status is unknown.

The only girls we have left to play with would be Elaena Targaryen's Penrose daughters - Laena, Jocelyn, and Joy (the names indicate that they might be descendants of Laena Velaryon and Jocelyn Baratheon through the female line). But since the boy Robin Penrose was the oldest child of Elaena by Ronnel Penrose neither of them really qualify as 'an elder daughter'. Still, it is possible that one of those daughters was married either to Lyonel Baratheon or his son or brother (if Ormund isn't a son but rather a grandson or nephew of Lyonel).

Such a union would also more or less qualify as having taken place about a hundred years before the series.

Another idea would be a repetition of the Alyssa Velaryon situation, i.e. a dowager queen taking a Lord or heir of Storm's End as second husband - Aegon III's wife and queen Daenaera Velaryon could do something like that. She is scarcely older than Borros Baratheon's posthumous son, for instance. True, Daenera herself is definitely a rather obscure Targaryen descendant herself, but as a queen she was rather close to the Iron Throne, anyway. This could also be done with a dowager queen Aelinor Penrose who, becoming a widow in 221 AC, could marry Ormund Baratheon's father in the 220s. As a cousin of Aerys I she would have at least some Targaryen blood (likely through the daughters of Aegon III's half-sisters). This would be basically the same setting as the idea that the Baratheons are descended from one of Elaena's Penrose girls.

Finally there is the possibility of Velaryon-Baratheon matches on the table - the second Laena Velaryon and, of course, other Velaryon daughters during the centuries. Boremund Baratheon, for instance, certainly would have had the standing to marry a daughter or granddaughter of Lord Daemon Velaryon.

A more obscure idea would be that a Baratheon ends up with some Blackfyre bride - although I've no idea how this could have worked.

But why is this discussion relevant insofar as the writing of the series is concerned?

I think the fact that the blood ties between the Targaryens and Baratheons were clearly unclear by the time ACoK was written casts and interesting light on prophecy stuff, most notably the stuff about the promised prince and Azor Ahai:

By the time of ADwD it is clear that - for House Targaryen at least - the promised prince would be a descendant of King Aerys II and Queen Rhaella. That's what the Ghost of High Heart prophesied. If George had known the details of his prophecy complex - a prophecy or prophecies he has yet to fully include into the text of the books! - by the time he was writing ACoK he would have likely connected that more with both Renly's talk about his Targaryen ancestors and, especially, with Melisandre and Stannis and the entire Azor Ahai story. Mel looks for the savior on Dragonstone but we don't yet know what made her believe that Stannis is the one. AFfC revealed that Stannis is a descendant of Aegon V through Rhaelle, but not of Jaehaerys II or Aerys II and Rhaella. As per the Ghost this definitely disqualifies him as the savior/promised prince.

On a conceptual level all this can - and likely does imply - that the savior/promised prince concept temporarily precedes all the 'prophetic grounding' in bloodlines. Originally we had the concept of a House Targaryen and a House Baratheon that were loosely interrelated due to a couple of marriages that took place in the distant past. But as the story grew this changed. Eventually, the prophesied savior character was put in a very specific bloodline and a very specific point in the family tree (after Aerys II-Rhaella). But those are background details that came later, they were not there yet when Dany hatched the dragon eggs, when the red comet rose, when the shadows came to Dragonstone to stay and Stannis burned the Seven.

It may not even be that the idea of the savior - and Stannis Baratheon as a false savior - was originally supposed to be interconnected with Stannis also being a Targaryen cousin. It could have been just George playing with the false savior theme set against a real savior - just as he is also playing with the idea of a real hidden prince against/or connected with the idea of a fake hidden prince. Stannis is introduced as the champion of a priestess from a foreign land, following a foreign religion. As ACoK progresses - especially with the House of the Undying - and even more so in ASoS there appear connections and ties between those concepts, but I don't think it makes sense for us to believe or assume that those things were all there from the start.

If they had been there we would have seen a much stronger focus of the kinship between Targaryen and Baratheon back in AGoT and also in ACoK - both because the close kinship between Robert and Rhaegar would have made the entire war more tragic (and the enmity and rivalry much more poignant) and because this would have provided an ideal background for the introduction of the false savior plot line around Stannis. But there is very little of this there, even in ASoS.

I think this should be kept in mind when discussing all that prophecy stuff and the meaning of how certain characters are related to each other.

It also may cast a light on the Rhaegar-Lyanna thing insofar as one might come to conclusion that it is misguided or even wrong to stress or focus on the union of bloodlines in the production of saviors or dragon heads or promised princes and overlook what likely was (and still is) at the heart of the author in all that - the actual romance/relationship/interaction of the characters he created, not so much from what kind of bloodline they came or how exactly their family tree looks like. Such trivial details come later. And, yeah, this post was still (and very deliberately) about such trivial details...

Christs.  Talk about minutiae.  My dear Lord Varys.  Only you could want to dissect this matter to such a degree.  I hope you would not begrudge a fellow for going off the path of your trail, Lord Varys San.   

Fire And Blood taught us a lot.  Dragons are kind of mild even if they vary in personality.  They’re calm and predictable for beings of such power.  A Stag is a testosterone fueled creature and is therefore more agitated.  See how Robert was horny and unsuited for the quiet life.  Stags act on instinct.  You might have trouble domesticating a stag.  That’s why geldings are made when it comes to horses.  Dragons hunt but do not seem to have a lot of anxiety.  To get to the point, a Stag will have a more volatile personality.  It’s not a good mix.

[LynnS]

I couldn't possibly add anything to this conversation, but I do find it interesting.  Any suggestion that the Baratheons had any firey blood, has been a taboo subject in the past.  So reading about it, from someone who knows the material is novel and thought provoking, if not everyone's cup of tea.