Sandor and Brienne Parallels

[Platypus Rex]

A list of parallels below.  I use First Person, mainly so I can use gender-neutral constructions:

• I have been referred to as "The Hound" [1].
• I am a superior fighter, typically using sword, shield and metal armor.
• I am thought by some to be hideous.  I wear my hair long.  I am very tall, about 6'8" to 6'10".  I am muscular.  I appear to be about 29 years old [2].  My eyes would appear grey in dim light [3].  
• I have suffered severe injuries on one side of my face, with flesh missing; I have also sustained a sword wound to the upper thigh; and an injury to my forearm.
• I have served on a kingsguard, but am not a knight.
• I have fled from my prior kingsguard employment, and am considered a criminal and fugitive by some.  I have been accused of at least one crime I did not commit.
• I won a tournament, attended by my king.  Loras Tyrell was the other finalist.  In the last combat of the tournament, an incident occurred involving Loras and an alleged dirty trick.  As a result, I was declared the victor.
• At this same tournament, I seized an opportunity to fight, in hand-to-hand combat, a fierce landed knight, against whom I bear a bitter grudge.  [4] This grudge relates to a hurt I sustained years ago, when still a child.
• Lady Stark [5] and I were nearby when a young king, freshly crowned and newly wed, was murdered.  We had no involvement in the murder but nonetheless had to flee for our lives. [6]
• I was severely injured in a fight at the Crossroads Inn.  Afterwards, I begged Lady Stark [5] for mercy.  But she had no mercy.
• At the Crossroads Inn, I was with with a child, dressed like a boy, aged about 10-12.  I had earlier captured this skinny, underfed child outside a ruin, during a rainstorm.  After this we had traveled together, and sometimes helped each other in combat.  We had been searching for surviving relatives of Lady Stark [5].
• I have been captured by the Brotherhood without Banners.  My trial was held in a cave, before their undead leader, who held a fiery blade.   Thoros was present.   Lem Lemoncloak, one-eyed Jack and Lady Stark [5] were among my accusers.  I was accused of being a traitor and a Lannister servant.  I was offered a chance to vindicate myself with my sword.  
• The one I love is a reputed kingslayer; formerly a romantic idealist, idealizing knighthood, until experiences at Kings Landing caused disillusionment.  The age difference between us is about 16 years.
• The one who injured my face was a monster in human form.  He was enormous.  He spent time in the black cells below the Red Keep.  At one point, he became silent and never spoke thereafter.  He was slain with a spear.  He was associated with "the Hound" [7]
• I have defeated Jaime Lannister in combat [8].  
• I had an older brother and at least one younger sister.  All my siblings have died.
• A poor companion of mine, of short acquaintance, was slain by a Bloody Mummer.  I buried him in a quiet isolated place by the sea, near a cave, and among walls of un-mortared stone. [9]

To which I might add (though it would be cheating) "If certain fan theories are true, I have died and been reborn, through the aid of a holy man, with a reputation for miraculous powers of healing."  I happen to believe both theories, so this seems less like cheating to me than it might seem to you.

It is a curious list.  And I cannot help thinking there are other parallels I have missed or overlooked.

NOTES

1. Jaime jokes that Brienne is "the Hound with teats, except she has no teats".  
2. Sandor is about 29.  Brienne is about 19, but when last seen by Jaime, he remarks that she seems to have aged 10 years.
3. Brienne's eyes are blue, which would appear grey in dim light.  Sandor's eyes, when seen by Sansa by torchlight, when he was drunk and angry, appeared grey.
4. Brienne fought Red Ronnet Connington at Bitterbridge; Sandor fought Gregor Clegane, at the Hand's Tourney.
5. In these three cases, "Lady Stark" refers to Arya in Sandor's case; but to Lady Stoneheart in Brienne's case.
6. Thank you to @Seams for suggesting this idea.
7. Biter is associated with Rorge; Gregor is associated with Sandor.
8. Sandor unhorsed Jaime at the Tourney of the Hand; Brienne defeated Jaime just before they were attacked by the Bloody Mummers.
9. This is a slight cheat, in that it assumes the gravedigger is Sandor.  The gravedigger buried Brother Clement, who was slain by Rorge, at the Quiet Isle.  Brienne buried Dick Crabb, who was slain by Shagwell, at The Whispers.   It is also possible (though this is speculative) that Brother Clement is also a Crabb.  The only other times where the name "Clement" appears in ASOIAF, it is in connection with the Crabb family.

[The Map Guy]

Also, Sandor protected the Stark girls ... Arya & Sansa (SANSAN!)

I think in the future Brienne will protect a Stark boy ... Bran (BRIBRAN! or BRABRIENNE! or BRANBRI! or ... you know what I mean)

[Seams]

Brienne and Lady Stark escape from the scene of King Renly's death; The Hound and Arya escape from the scene of King Robb's death.

If The Hound is now The Gravedigger on the Quiet Isle, there is a parallel to Brienne making Shagwell dig the grave for Nimble Dick at Crackclaw Point. There is another place, earlier, when Brienne wants to cut down the bodies of people who were hanged in order to give them a decent burial.

[Platypus Rex]

7 hours ago, Seams said:

Brienne and Lady Stark escape from the scene of King Renly's death; The Hound and Arya escape from the scene of King Robb's death.

Thanks.  I added that one in.

7 hours ago, Seams said:

If The Hound is now The Gravedigger on the Quiet Isle, there is a parallel to Brienne making Shagwell dig the grave for Nimble Dick at Crackclaw Point. There is another place, earlier, when Brienne wants to cut down the bodies of people who were hanged in order to give them a decent burial.

This one is intriguing, but I'm not sure what to make of it yet.  It may foreshadow a parallel that has not yet come to pass.

[Platypus Rex]

9 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Also, Sandor protected the Stark girls ... Arya & Sansa (SANSAN!)

I think in the future Brienne will protect a Stark boy ... Bran (BRIBRAN! or BRABRIENNE! or BRANBRI! or ... you know what I mean)

You remind me that there are 3 Lady Starks, and not 2.  Perhaps I should look for parallels between Brienne's interactions with Catelyn and Sandor's interactions with Sansa (as well as Arya).  I can't think of any interactions either have had to the Stark boys, so maybe that's in the future, like you said.

The curious thing about these parallels is that they are very "pun-like".  The underlying reality is often vastly different, even though it seems to have been set up so one can use similar language to describe them.   What game might GRRM be playing?  

[Platypus Rex]

I added an entry about Gregor / Biter.

[The Map Guy]

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

You remind me that there are 3 Lady Starks, and not 2.

Aye, but that is why I said 'girls'.

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I can't think of any interactions either have had to the Stark boys, so maybe that's in the future, like you said.

"What does [Lady Stoneheart] want of me?"
"She wants her son alive, or the men who killed him dead," said the big man. "She wants to feed the crows, like they did at the Red Wedding. Freys and Boltons, aye. We'll give her those, as many as she likes. All she asks from you is Jaime Lannister."
Brienne VIII AFFC

In context, the son is Robb. But since GRRM is genius, he cleverly writes double meanings all the time (I try to mimic his technique when I post things in this forum ) Currently, the son is Robb, but the sentence could also foreshadow Bran's fate in future books (BRIBRAN!). And don't worry about Rickon, he is safe with OSHA.

[Platypus Rex]

I added an entry about defeating Jaime.  Both are described as muscular, so I also threw that in.

[Edited to remove a brain-fart where I forgot I was supposed to be looking for Sandor/Brienne parallels and not Jaime/Brienne parallels].

[Platypus Rex]

On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 2:11 PM, Seams said:

If The Hound is now The Gravedigger on the Quiet Isle, there is a parallel to Brienne making Shagwell dig the grave for Nimble Dick at Crackclaw Point. There is another place, earlier, when Brienne wants to cut down the bodies of people who were hanged in order to give them a decent burial.

I tried pursuing this a little more.  We can say that Brienne "buried" Dick Crabb.  Shagwell may have dug the grave, but Brienne, Hyle Hunt and Pod filled it up again.  And Brienne was in charge of the entire operation

Nimble Dick was killed by Shagwell, the Bloody Mummer/Brave Companion.  The Gravedigger on the Quiet Isle was digging a grave for Brother Clement, who died of infection after being maimed by Rorge, who has also been a "Brave Companion/Bloody Mummer".

A search for "Clement" on the "Search of Ice and Fire", leads to two other hits.  One in AFFC where, Dick Crabb lists a "Clement" Crabb, among those who either fought for Rhaegar at the Trident, or who was on the Kingsguard, or both.  We can rule out "both" as all Kingsguard members at the time of the Battle of the Trident are accounted for.  The other hit is in the WORLD book, which mentions a Ser Clement Crabb as being on the Kingsguard 200+ years ago.  It is unclear if Nimble Dick was referring to that Clement Crabb or a more recent one.

The Wiki assumes the former.  However, Brother Clement was 48 years old when he died, making him old enough to have fought alongside Rhaegar at the Trident.  Also, the Elder Brother says that many join the Quiet Isle to escape horrors, apparently including horrors of war.

But if Brother Clement is a Crabb (a big if) we could add:

• After poor Crabb, my companion, was slain by a Bloody Mummer, I buried him in a grave in a quiet isolated place by the sea, near a cave and among walls of un-mortared stone. 

But "Crabb" would be cheating in Sandor's case.  So if I add such an entry, I would have to be:

• After my poor companion was slain by a Bloody Mummer, I buried him in a grave in a quiet isolated place by the sea, near a cave and among walls of un-mortared stone. 

Of course, it is also cheating to assume the gravedigger is Sandor.  But there is almost universal agreement among fans on this point.

 

[Platypus Rex]

I added some more details to the Arya/Podrick parallel (9th entry).  There was more there than I thought.  Specifically, Sandor/Brienne captured Arya/Podrick outside a ruin during a rainstorm ….

[Seams]

On 7/27/2019 at 4:04 PM, Platypus Rex said:

I tried pursuing this a little more.  We can say that Brienne "buried" Dick Crabb.  Shagwell may have dug the grave, but Brienne, Hyle Hunt and Pod filled it up again.  And Brienne was in charge of the entire operation

...

Of course, it is also cheating to assume the gravedigger is Sandor.  But there is almost universal agreement among fans on this point.

The Gravedigger parallel struck me, in part, because of a scene I have been reading and re-reading in the Dunk & Egg story, The Sworn Sword. Because Brienne is supposedly a descendant of Dunk, I think we are supposed to compare them.

Early in the story, Dunk sets off to figure out why the stream serving the Standfast lands and crops has suddenly gone dry. He comes upon a dam that has been put in place by a group of "diggers": men who are working for Lady Rohanne, using picks and shovels to dig canals across her land to channel the water to her pear trees and (it turns out) her moat. Dunk's fellow sworn sword, Ser Bennis, cuts one of the diggers on the cheek. Dunk objects but the offense has been given and the injury to the digger becomes a central part of the conflict between Lady Rohanne and Ser Eustace Osgrey.

The "claret on the cheek" (as Ser Bennis describes the sword wound) is similar to The Hound's injured cheek. (Also similar, of course, to Bloodraven's wine stain birthmark on his cheek and, later, to the bite on Brienne's cheek.) In an attempt to defuse the conflict, Dunk will later cut himself on his own cheek while he treats with Lady Rohanne.

The diggers in the Dunk & Egg novella are not burying bodies, but there is a message about letting go of the past and/or the end of an era and the reconciliation of old and young, dead and living, Blackfyre and Targaryen, in the story. The resolution occurs when Dunk "dies" (he gets better) and Lady Rohanne visits the grave in the blackberries (berry = bury) of her first love.

If you haven't read the Dunk & Egg stories, I apologize for introducing a tangent to your main point. If you have read them, I think there is a lot of helpful information to be mined from the shared motifs. The novellas are helping me a lot to sort out symbolism in the main series.

[Platypus Rex]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

The Gravedigger parallel struck me, in part, because of a scene I have been reading and re-reading in the Dunk & Egg story, The Sworn Sword. Because Brienne is supposedly a descendant of Dunk, I think we are supposed to compare them.

I'm not a big believer in Brienne as a descendant of Dunk (which I know most consider to be heresy). 

I'm not sure whether GRRM means us to compare Brienne and Dunk.  But then again, I'm not sure he intends us to compare Brienne and Sandor either.  Assuming these Brienne/Sandor parallels mean anything, it may be that he does not intend us to notice whatever it is he is setting up.

One could, of course, try to devise an analogous list of parallels between Brienne and Dunk, following the same set of rules (a set of First Person statements, which would be equally true if spoken by either Brienne or Dunk).  I suppose you could play the game with any set of two characters.   I doubt it would be nearly as impressive as the list here, but maybe I'm wrong.  I have not yet seriously tried.

If you COULD do an equally impressive list of parallels for ANY two characters, it would show this to be meaningless exercise.  But I think my list has gone a bit beyond that.  Or am I just deluding myself with my own creative ability to use identical language to describe vastly different situations?

4 hours ago, Seams said:

Early in the story, Dunk sets off to figure out why the stream serving the Standfast lands and crops has suddenly gone dry. He comes upon a dam that has been put in place by a group of "diggers": men who are working for Lady Rohanne, using picks and shovels to dig canals across her land to channel the water to her pear trees and (it turns out) her moat. Dunk's fellow sworn sword, Ser Bennis, cuts one of the diggers on the cheek. Dunk objects but the offense has been given and the injury to the digger becomes a central part of the conflict between Lady Rohanne and Ser Eustace Osgrey.

The "claret on the cheek" (as Ser Bennis describes the sword wound) is similar to The Hound's injured cheek. (Also similar, of course, to Bloodraven's wine stain birthmark on his cheek and, later, to the bite on Brienne's cheek.) In an attempt to defuse the conflict, Dunk will later cut himself on his own cheek while he treats with Lady Rohanne.

Sure.  But a direct parallel between Brienne and Dunk would seem more impressive than one between Brienne and any person Dunk happened to run into.

How could I hammer this into a statement that would be equally true if spoken by (say) Brienne and Dunk?  "At one time during my career, someone in my vicitity, not necessarily excluding me, sustained an injury to the cheek".   I would imagine most warriors could say the same.

[Platypus Rex]

I added another curious parallel from the Bitterbridge/Hand tourneys:

• At this same tournament, I seized an opportunity to fight, in hand to hand combat, a fierce landed knight, against whom I bore a bitter grudge.   This grudge related to a hurt I sustained years ago, when still a child.

This refers to Red Ronnet (for Brienne at Bitterbridge) or to Gregor (for Sandor, at the Hand's Tourney). 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I love these parallel threads. I, unfortunately, never have much to add to them though. I always follow them when I find one because I enjoy reading them. I must say I don't recall every reading one quite like yours in that it's very straight forward (versus some that parallel symbolic things) AND has many exact parallels. Bravo! 

I've often wondered if there are any characters that have an opposing or opposite parallel to each other like Character X did this & Character Y did the opposite of that. Maybe one day I'll get around to digging into it deeper to see if any clear cut parallels exist. 

Back to your thread though - you've clearly established the parallels between the two - what do you think they mean? What is the George trying to convey with it? Do you think it could give us any insight into future character arcs for either of them? 

For instance maybe Brienne has done something that Sandor does not yet have a parallel action for, but will later? I think that sort of thing would be pretty hard to spot but would be interested in your thoughts on it. 

[Gingin]

Both Arya and Podrick are skinny and underfed when they are found, respectively, by Sandor and Brienne.

[The Map Guy]

On 7/28/2019 at 6:30 PM, Platypus Rex said:

I'm not sure whether GRRM means us to compare Brienne and Dunk.

I have a wacky theory. Its to foreShadow the Tragedy of Summerhall.

Brienne fails to protect King Renly.
Dunk fails to protect King Egg.

[Platypus Rex]

14 hours ago, Gingin said:

Both Arya and Podrick are skinny and underfed when they are found, respectively, by Sandor and Brienne.

Thanks.  I threw that in.

[Platypus Rex]

On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 10:36 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Back to your thread though - you've clearly established the parallels between the two - what do you think they mean? What is the George trying to convey with it?

Hazarding a guess, I would say the purpose is some kind of illusion, deception, or fake out.

My reason is that the parallels seem somewhat superficial, in that they depend on very different people or situations, that have been set up so that they can be described in identical language.

Suppose, for instance, that we were to encounter one character under circumstances that leads to the initial assumption, that it is another character.  Then this character starts referring to incidents in his/her past.   It might then seem that the initial mistake had been confirmed.  Especially if seen from the POV of a character that remembers the wrong incidents.

Quote

Do you think it could give us any insight into future character arcs for either of them? 

For instance maybe Brienne has done something that Sandor does not yet have a parallel action for, but will later? I think that sort of thing would be pretty hard to spot but would be interested in your thoughts on it. 

Hmm.  Well, I have noticed another set of curious parallels involving Edric Dayne and Podrick Payne:

• I am a very shy boy, about 12 years old, who has lost his father.  I was last seen somewhere in the Riverlands, with the Brotherhood Without Banners.
• My first name ends (phonetically) in "...dric".  My last name ends in "...ayne".  I have a one-syllable nickname ending in "...d."
• I would probably recognize Dornish heraldry, if I saw it. [1]
• I have served as a squire to a Lord.  I loyally stood by my lord in a battle at a river where fiery missiles flew.  I saved my injured lord by pulling him from a river.  My lord has a price on his head.  But my lord is now gone.

Pod is an associate of Brienne.  But Ned is not, as far as we know, an associate of Sandor.  But if it is true that all these weird parallels revolve around Brienne and Sandor, perhaps Sandor and Edric WILL be associates, in the not too distant future.  After all, Edric no longer seems to be with the Brotherhood Without Banners; so I guess he's due to show up somewhere else soon enough. 

So, based on the foregoing, perhaps we can anticipate a Sandor/Edric connection.  And, going even further out of a limb, perhaps we can anticipate the following additional Brienne/Sandor parallels:

• My coat of arms features a shooting star against a purple backdrop. [2]
• I wield a big sword that was formerly known as "Ice", but now has a different name.[3]

That's all I got, at least for now ….

[1]  Podrick, because he was trained in Dornish heraldry by Tyrion.  Edric, because he is a Dornish Lordling.

[2] This refers to the arms of House Dayne, as well as Dunk's shield.  Dunk's shield is described in the text as having a sunset backdrop, but in artist's illustrations, this generally darkens to purple at the spot where the shooting star appears, for contrast.

[3] The "Ice" we know was melted down to make two swords, one being Brienne's blade "Oathkeeper".  But Ned Stark's "Ice" is not the original "Ice", having been forged only 400 years ago.  This has led some fans to speculate that the sword "Dawn" is in fact the original "Ice".

[Gingin]

On 7/30/2019 at 4:36 AM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

For instance maybe Brienne has done something that Sandor does not yet have a parallel action for, but will later? I think that sort of thing would be pretty hard to spot but would be interested in your thoughts on it. 

I’ve noticed that currently Brienne has a suitor (Ser Hyle Hunt) and a love interest (Jaime), while Sandor has something going on with Sansa but no known suitor.