Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Angel Eyes

Did Cersei help cause her mother’s death?

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

It’s known that Cersei wasn’t happy with her mother for separating her and Jaime after discovering one of their trysts and when her mother died giving birth to Tyrion, Cersei was happy to get the chance to go back to Jaime. We also know that Cersei is obsessed with what she wants and murdered her friend Melara for overhearing a prophecy. So is it possible that Cersei had a hand in her mother’s death, either to silence her before Tywin could hear of it or to be with Jaime (I have my own theory that she had Harlan Grandison murdered to open up a spot in the Kingsguard for Jaime)?

Edited by Angel Eyes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

I think that Johanna died after cessarean.

Based on this

https://www.nchmd.org/education/mayo-health-library/details/CON-20032297

it seems, that what Tyrion has is Disproportionate dwarfism (bowing of the legs; narrowing of the channel in the lower spine (spinal stenosis), resulting in pressure on the spinal cord and subsequent pain or numbness in the legs).

And it's written there, that "Women with disproportionate dwarfism may develop respiratory problems during pregnancy. A C-section (cesarean delivery) is almost always necessary because the size and shape of the pelvis doesn't allow for successful vaginal delivery."

Children with disproportionate dwarfism often have bigger heads, so cesarean is also necessary.

So, either afterwards Johanna died from bloodloss, or later from sepsis. And Cersei has nothing to do with it. Their mother died because midwives and maesters/doctors of their time were inadequate to deal with complicated pregnancies.

Edited by Megorova

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Anyone?...

“Very careless of you, old man”

Jaime and Cersei were both stressors to their mom.  Guilt by causing stress.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think Cersie was involved at all.  Women died birthing normal children, Tyrion's birth would have been very difficult.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that Johanna died after cessarean.

Based on this

https://www.nchmd.org/education/mayo-health-library/details/CON-20032297

it seems, that what Tyrion has is Disproportionate dwarfism (bowing of the legs; narrowing of the channel in the lower spine (spinal stenosis), resulting in pressure on the spinal cord and subsequent pain or numbness in the legs).

And it's written there, that "Women with disproportionate dwarfism may develop respiratory problems during pregnancy. A C-section (cesarean delivery) is almost always necessary because the size and shape of the pelvis doesn't allow for successful vaginal delivery."

Children with disproportionate dwarfism often have bigger heads, so cesarean is also necessary.

So, either afterwards Johanna died from bloodloss, or later from sepsis. And Cersei has nothing to do with it. Their mother died because midwives and maesters/doctors of their time were inadequate to deal with complicated pregnancies.

Is there any evidence that maesters or midwives can perform cesarean birth (and have the mother survive) or, for that matter, do they even try?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Is there any evidence that maesters or midwives can perform cesarean birth (and have the mother survive) or, for that matter, do they even try?

I dont know about maesters or midwives, but perhaps kings?

 

He laid the point of his sword between Daenerys's breasts and slid it downward, over the curve of her belly. "I want what I came for," he told her. "I want the crown he promised me. He bought you, but he never paid for you. Tell him I want what I bargained for, or I'm taking you back. You and the eggs both. He can keep his bloody foal. I'll cut the bastard out and leave it for him."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Is there any evidence that maesters or midwives can perform cesarean birth (and have the mother survive) or, for that matter, do they even try?

Most likely, mothers always die afterwards.

There's no direct information about this in the books, though possibly there's a hint that maester Marwyn does it. From the Wiki - "People say that Marwyn keeps the company of whores and hedge wizards, talks with hairy Ibbenese and pitch-black Summer Islanders in their own tongues, and sacrifices to queer gods at the little sailor's temples down by Oldtown’s wharves. Men speak of seeing him down by the undercity, in rat pits and black brothels, consorting with mummers, singers, sellswords and even beggars. Some even have whispered that he has killed a man with his fists once. He believes in many curious things.[3]" "In Essos Mirri Maz Duur mentions to Daenerys Targaryen that she was taught about human anatomy by a maester named Marwyn.[4]"

"Qyburn studied at the Citadel, and was as skilled a healer as Ebrose. However, he sought to surpass the archmaester, and instead of opening dead bodies to discover the secrets of the living as the Citadel has done for centuries, Qyburn opened living bodies to discover the secrets of death. When these unethical experiments, as well as his studies of necromancy, were discovered, Qyburn was stripped of his chain and his position as a maester. Nevertheless, he claims to understand the nature of life and death better than any man in Oldtown.[7]

Following his exile from Oldtown, Qyburn joined the Brave Companions.[4]He has respect for Marwyn of the Citadel, the only archmaester who liked Qyburn's way of thinking about the residue of souls after death,[11] but he calls the other archmaesters "grey sheep".[7]"

 

People know, that Marwyn frequents brothels. So, most likely, his superiors asked him about why did he went there. Probably, someone even was sent to spy after him, to find out, whether he broke maesters' vow of celibacy. And they didn't "fired" him, because the reason why he went into those brothels, wasn't for sex. Most likely, he was helping those women during childbirth, or with abortions.

I think, that Marwyn and Rhaegar knew each other, and Marwyn knew everything about the prophecy. So when they found out, that Lyanna is pregnant, Rhaegar had asked Marwyn to come to her, and to help her during childbirth. Lyanna was described as a child-woman, and that she was slim of frame. So, most likely, she had narrow hips, and because Jon was a big baby, Lyanna was unable to naturally give birth to him, and thus, Marwyn had to do caesarean on her. That's why she died in a bed of blood. It wasn't just an average chilbirth, he cut her open, to save her baby, and that's why there was a lot of blood afterwards, and why she died. After her death, he probably went to Essos, to find out more information about the prophecy, and also to learn more about various medicines and medical procedures. In Asshai he met Quaithe/Shiera Seastar, and became her disciple (learned magic from her), and Mirri Maz Duur (to whom he was teaching Western medicine). When Dany had complications with Rhaego's birth, Mirri had summoned with usage of magic, both of her ex-teachers, and their "apparitions" teleported (with usage of glass candles) into Drogo's tent. Though, there was no need to cut open Dany, she was able to give birth on her own. And Marwyn left early, while Shiera remained, and continued to assist Dany. This is Marwyn -> "Ser Jorah's face was drawn and sorrowful. "Rhaegar was the last dragon," he told her. He warmed translucent hands over a glowing brazier where stone eggs smouldered red as coals. One moment he was there and the next he was fading, his flesh colorless, less substantial than the wind. "The last dragon," he whispered, thin as a wisp, and was gone."

Those are just guesses, but it's likely, that they are correct. If their world is similar to our Medieval Ages, then caesarean method does exist in ASOIAF, even though it wasn't mentioned anywhere directly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/25/2019 at 3:32 PM, Angel Eyes said:

So is it possible that Cersei had a hand in her mother’s death, either to silence her before Tywin could hear of it or to be with Jaime

Possible, just not very likely. Her reaction is to torment Tyrion:

Quote

[Oberyn] "...When I commented that you seemed a poor sort of monster, your sister said, "He killed my mother," and twisted your little cock so hard I thought she was like to pull it off...." [ASOS - TYRION V]

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Joanna, no.  Cersei is not to blame for that.  She's not to blame for Harlan.  The only murder we can blame her for was the death of Melara and the lady wolf.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Unit A2 said:

Joanna, no.  Cersei is not to blame for that.  She's not to blame for Harlan.  The only murder we can blame her for was the death of Melara and the lady wolf.  

You don’t think so? She’s petty enough to murder Melara for wanting to have Jaime, and you don’t think that she wouldn’t have Harlan killed and make it not look suspicious? Just ask the second High Septon about that. And she also tried to have Tyrion killed in battle. Point is, she’s willing to kill people for getting between her and Jaime, smart enough to make it look like an accident (until Osney Kettleblack revealed the truth), and willing to try and get her relatives killed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Angel Eyes said:

You don’t think so? She’s petty enough to murder Melara for wanting to have Jaime, and you don’t think that she wouldn’t have Harlan killed and make it not look suspicious? Just ask the second High Septon about that. And she also tried to have Tyrion killed in battle. Point is, she’s willing to kill people for getting between her and Jaime, smart enough to make it look like an accident (until Osney Kettleblack revealed the truth), and willing to try and get her relatives killed.

The palace was surrounded by loyal people during her youth.  It won't be easy to bribe somebody to kill a white cloak.  She was only a teenage girl then.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×