How did the Starks aquire the sword ICE?

[LynnS]

The Starks have had the sword for 400 years.  Any ideas how they acquired it? 

[Tyrion1991]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

The Starks have had the sword for 400 years.  Any ideas how they acquired it? 

 

I am not sure when the Doom happened. But Iam assuming that the Targaryens could make a tidy profit pawning their magic swords. The trade could have been a gesture of goodwill. It could have even been for furs of woodland animals; don’t think they have those on dragon stone or Valyria. 

I mean I am not sure if it really is a Valyrian Steel blade. It wouldn’t surprise me if George gave a unique and First Man origin to the blade. It doesn’t make sense for this ancient house of winter to be carrying around a tainted Valyrian blade that it relatively speaking only just acquired. It’s probably some Children of the Forest “Ice made steel” weapon or something like that. It’s inconsistent for Ice to be a Valyrian blade since it’s a creation of fire.

[LynnS]

58 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

I am not sure when the Doom happened. But Iam assuming that the Targaryens could make a tidy profit pawning their magic swords. The trade could have been a gesture of goodwill. It could have even been for furs of woodland animals; don’t think they have those on dragon stone or Valyria. 

I mean I am not sure if it really is a Valyrian Steel blade. It wouldn’t surprise me if George gave a unique and First Man origin to the blade. It doesn’t make sense for this ancient house of winter to be carrying around a tainted Valyrian blade that it relatively speaking only just acquired. It’s probably some Children of the Forest “Ice made steel” weapon or something like that. It’s inconsistent for Ice to be a Valyrian blade since it’s a creation of fire.

That's interesting.  I really don't have a clue.  But the notion that they acquired them from Targaryens seem plausible to me.

As to whether or not it's actually valyrian steel or something else, that's also a good question.  Although we do have Tobho Mott reforging Ice for Tywin (with some difficulty).

I agree, it's inconsistent or anachronistic to call a valyrian steel sword "ice".  Where does that come from?

It's been suggested on another thread, that the Targaryens gave valyrian swords to those who yielded, in exchange for the original sword used to build the Iron Throne, (to cement their allegiance).  That also seems possible to me.

I also have the notion that the original sword Ice, and the crown of the Kings of Winter, can be found somewhere in the crypts of Winterfell.

Thanks for weighing in.

 

[Ckram]

Maybe it's not exactly 400, maybe i'ts around 400 hundred years old.

The starks might have purchased it before the doom, because they needed to replace the original Ice, which might have been lost with Brandon Shipwrigth disappearance.

Valyrian steel swords seemed to be becoming a thing in Westeros just before the Doom. Both Longclaw and Brightroar were acquired around 500 years ago.

Maybe the Doom even have something to do with an excessive amount of valyrian steel production to meet demand from Westeros and other parts of the world.

Who knows.

[Free Northman Reborn]

They bought it.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 7/25/2019 at 2:36 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

 

I am not sure when the Doom happened. But Iam assuming that the Targaryens could make a tidy profit pawning their magic swords. The trade could have been a gesture of goodwill. It could have even been for furs of woodland animals; don’t think they have those on dragon stone or Valyria. 

I mean I am not sure if it really is a Valyrian Steel blade. It wouldn’t surprise me if George gave a unique and First Man origin to the blade. It doesn’t make sense for this ancient house of winter to be carrying around a tainted Valyrian blade that it relatively speaking only just acquired. It’s probably some Children of the Forest “Ice made steel” weapon or something like that. It’s inconsistent for Ice to be a Valyrian blade since it’s a creation of fire.

There have been multiple swords named Ice.

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There have been multiple swords named Ice.

Oh! Interesting.  I'm going to post this comment in full:

ALL

Quote

 

During a re-read of AGOT, I noticed that the Ice sword Ned carried which was made in Valyria was not the original Ice sword.

Here is the passage.

"I am always proud of Bran," Catelyn replied, watching the sword as he stroked it. She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. The name it bore was older still, a legacy from the age of heroes, when the Starks were Kings in the North.

I assumed that there was one sword forged during the Age of Heroes (possibly Bran the Builder's sword) that was passed down through the centuries in the Stark household. Though some still argue whether the last line in the above quote references a sword/swords.

I chanced upon some interesting information here. The thread seems to be a debate whether Dawn is Lightbringer.

And here is a quote from Ran who runs the Westeros forums and the co-author of the World of Ice and Fire book.

The original Ice is from the Age of Heroes. There were numerous swords named Ice after it. King Torrhen (not Tallard) gave a sword to Aegon, probably, but that was just some sword -- not the greatsword Ice that had been in the family for ~200 years at that point. Aegon did not give it to Torrhen.

What Cat tells us of in ACoK is that he (and all the other defeated kings) gave up their crowns to Aegon as well, and no one knows what became of those. Hence Robb's crown being a remake of the ancient crown of the Kings of Winter.

So what we now know about the Ice sword is:

• The Ice sword Ned possesses was made in Valyria, 400 years ago.

• The first Ice sword existed during the Age of Heroes. (This could be Bran the Builder's sword).

• There were multiple Ice swords in the Stark household.

• The first Ice sword was most likely retired in the Winterfell crypts.

I am hoping the new World of Ice and Fire book gives us more information on the swords in ASOIAF.

 

 

[Tyrion1991]

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There have been multiple swords named Ice.

 

The Starks lack of imagination continues to amaze me.

[Jaak]

I dislike the theory of Targaryens having sold Valyrian swords at a large scale.

Basically because themselves ended up with only two attested swords.

[Platypus Rex]

Perhaps "Dawn" is the original "Ice".

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

They may have gained it from the Targaryens as the price for surrendering their crown and sword . Those who didn't  resist the Targaryen take over got something out of it besides a whole skin . Young king Arryn got to ride a dragon . King Torrhen Stark's price was going to be a little bit more . Ice is  at lease three hundred years old the same age as the Targaryen dynasty , and I doubt that the Targaryen at first colonized then fled to Dragonstone they and their allies brought over two Valyrian swords over .

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

They may have gained it from the Targaryens as the price for surrendering their crown and sword . Those who didn't  resist the Targaryen take over got something out of it besides a whole skin . Young king Arryn got to ride a dragon . King Torrhen Stark's price was going to be a little bit more . Ice is  at lease three hundred years old the same age as the Targaryen dynasty , and I doubt that the Targaryen at first colonized then fled to Dragonstone they and their allies brought over two Valyrian swords over .

And tell me why did the Valyrians decide to give the insignificant Mormonts a VS blade? Not just some cheese knife either but a hand and a half sword.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

They may have gained it from the Targaryens as the price for surrendering their crown and sword . Those who didn't  resist the Targaryen take over got something out of it besides a whole skin . Young king Arryn got to ride a dragon . King Torrhen Stark's price was going to be a little bit more . Ice is  at lease three hundred years old the same age as the Targaryen dynasty , and I doubt that the Targaryen at first colonized then fled to Dragonstone they and their allies brought over two Valyrian swords over .

Others have said there is historical precedent for it in Anglo-Saxon history, something GRRM would know about.  The problem is that there is no evidence in the text that Aegon ever did any such thing.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Perhaps "Dawn" is the original "Ice".

Yes, I think that has crossed many minds.  A white sword pale as milk glass sounds like it should be called Ice.

[LynnS]

36 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And tell me why did the Valyrians decide to give the insignificant Mormonts a VS blade? Not just some cheese knife either but a hand and a half sword. 

Indeed and it's not as if the Mormonts had the funds to actually buy one either; when the Lannister's with all their gold, couldn't buy one for love or money.

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, Jaak said:

I dislike the theory of Targaryens having sold Valyrian swords at a large scale.

Basically because themselves ended up with only two attested swords.

Yes, the Targs came with their swords but do we know anything about how the other houses acquired their swords or when?  Is it possible that there were a smattering of these swords among high status Andals?  Were they then acquired through marriage alliances?

[Loose Bolt]

4 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And tell me why did the Valyrians decide to give the insignificant Mormonts a VS blade? Not just some cheese knife either but a hand and a half sword.

I suspect that Mormonts paid Iron Price for that sword. Or there once was very lucky Iron Born captain who gained that sword by raiding a Valyrian ship, but his or one of his kins luck run out when he tried to raid Bear Island and so a man who killed that unlucky raider got nice sword :)

[The hairy bear]

21 hours ago, Jaak said:

I dislike the theory of Targaryens having sold Valyrian swords at a large scale.

It would never be a "large scale" sale anyway. Brightroar, Heartsbane and Longclaw were acquired by the Lannisters, Tarlys and Mormonts a century before the Doom. The only known Valyrian sword that Targaryens could be suspect of selling would be Ice. But as Ckram says, when Catelyn thought Ice was forged "four hundred years ago" she could easily be rounding off the figure. The Doom was only 413 years before.

That said, who knows what economical difficulties the Targaryens endured when they moved to Dragonstone and were cut off from the rest of their kin. Perhaps they had to purchase the castle from the Valyrian family that previously owned it, perhaps they had to wage wars for supremacy in the zone, perhaps they had to buy food for their retinue during a cruel winter...

On 7/27/2019 at 6:20 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

The Starks lack of imagination continues to amaze me.

They're not the only ones. Apparently the Corbray's Lady Forlorn is also a reused name.

I'd say that it's a Westerosi tradition to maintain the sword's name in the families. Just as it's customary to change one's name if you inherit a particular holding, the names of the ancestral swords may also be immutable.

[Corvo the Crow]

18 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I suspect that Mormonts paid Iron Price for that sword. Or there once was very lucky Iron Born captain who gained that sword by raiding a Valyrian ship, but his or one of his kins luck run out when he tried to raid Bear Island and so a man who killed that unlucky raider got nice sword :)

Hoares for all their wealth and power don’t/didn’t have one. I always suspected they lost it along with the island.

[JNR]

On 7/27/2019 at 11:05 AM, LynnS said:

And here is a quote from Ran who runs the Westeros forums and the co-author of the World of Ice and Fire book.

The original Ice is from the Age of Heroes. There were numerous swords named Ice after it. King Torrhen (not Tallard) gave a sword to Aegon, probably, but that was just some sword -- not the greatsword Ice that had been in the family for ~200 years at that point. Aegon did not give it to Torrhen.

This is either simply incorrect or there has been some misunderstanding in the reporting.

AGOT establishes that Ice is "four hundred years old," which means it was forged four hundred years ago.

We also know Aegon invaded Westeros three hundred years ago. 

Thus we know that Ice was only one hundred years old at the time of the Conquest, and could not possibly have been owned by the Starks for "~200 years" at that point.

For that matter, the canon never establishes when the Starks first acquired Ice (only when it was forged).