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The Boys (Amazon)


AncalagonTheBlack

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The lack of awareness in this thread of what constitutes an Australian accent really surprises me. I thought Ausssie accents were more widely known. I really can't understand how anyone could regard Urban's accent as anything other than a poorly executed lower-class English accent.

I think it's a bit unfair for Starr to take the piss out of Urban for the accent. Starr had several seasons of Banshee to refine his American accent. I think Urban really only had a few scenes in Ragnarok to try on his lower-class Brit accent.

I do have to admit that I completely failed to recognise that Homelander is played by Antony Starr. But in my defence I haven't yet watched the entirety of any TV series he's been in. So when he's disguised with short blonde hair and clean shaven I can be forgiven for not recognising him. The Boys is the first of his TV shows that I've watched an entire season.

6 hours ago, Corvinus said:

I think Karl Urban watched Snatch or maybe Lock, Stock & 2 Smocking Barrels in preparation for his role, and did something like that. His accent does seem to be a bit of a running joke throughout between Homelander saying "nice accent" and the one cop asking him what kind of accent is that. I could definitely hear a bit of his native NZ accent, so hopefully it was all on purpose. It might be that Butcher is someone who partially grew up in Australia, and partially in the UK. 

Piss off with that. If there is a deliberate NZ overtone to his English accent then Butcher definitely partially grew up in NZ.

6 hours ago, Heartofice said:

All I will say is that Butcher has to be Australian. His use of ‘you’re a good cunt’ was very revealing.

Wrong, we (though not me personally), use that phrase too.

In terms of performance, I think Antony Starr should at least be considered for an Emmy as best supporting actor.

I watched a Youtube that speculated about how supes are going to break in season 2, it suggested

Spoiler

Maeve (will find her heart), Starlight (obviously), the Deep (because of being permanently sidelined and excluded from the military), and A-Train (finding out about Compound V and trying to deal with his addiction) will all break from Vought. So Homelander and Black Noir would be the only current members of the 7 to stay with Vought.

Personally I think A-Train and the Deep don't (yet) have the courage to leave Vought, but maybe they will during season 2, though I think both may also end up hating Vought but staying because they want to status and wealth that comes with being a Vought supe.

I also predict that Starlight will be the second supe to prove to be fertile, either by the end of Season 2, or in season 3, if there is one.

 

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So...hmm. I've read the comics and enjoyed them, problems and all. And this series is good, but boy is it not the comics. To whit:

Spoiler

Changing Butcher's origin story like that is really really odd. He isn't remotely the tough guy that he is in the comics, certainly not the brawler that will get into any fight. We got a smidgen of that in the fight with translucent, but only just. But really, changing his wife not dying in front of him and his blaming supes for it makes him go from a guy with a reasonable, if not extreme, plot of vengeance to, well, someone who is kind of insane and wants to kill supes because...reasons? And he's just this kind of homeless dude with no resources and money? 

And that's his motivation - what's MMs and Frenchie's? They have almost no backstory in the show, but what they have gives them no reason to go after supes whatsoever. Why would MM do it? He isn't trying to get revenge on Vought like he was in the books; his brother didn't die of getting V, and his mother didn't mutate either. Heck, his whole nickname makes zero sense. Frenchie is a better character in the show, but there's also very little reason that he would be doing what he's doing. 

Starlight throwing up at the end of the season means she's pregnant, and god that sucks. Just...don't do that plotline please. Just don't. 

The final ep made so little actual sense. How did Starlight find them in this supermax facility? I guess she had security clearances so maybe she could ask around. Okay...so how did A-Train find them? He just...shows up? The fuck? 

Butcher being not part of the CIA or anything like that along with the Boys makes things very weird. So, basically, they're terrorists? I mean, in one part they went to a hospital and brutally killed a bunch of security guards. In another part they wiped out a bunch of random people who were getting carried out in body bags. Why aren't they in jail for, like, ever? In the comic this made some sense because the CIA was actually covering for them some (and Vought didn't want to get too into it). But here, they've got basically nothing at all. 

I don't get what the fuck they're doing with the Deep. I'm sure they thought it was super funny or whatever, but I just don't care about him and every second he's on he's wasting my time. 

I do like that they're expanding Starlight's role and character. I like that they're also showing a similar story to 15 million credits - the idea that even rebellion will be packaged and marketed and exploited. In the end you're part of the system whether you want to be or not. I like that Hughie is more competent, I like Frenchie not being, well, so incredibly weird, and the Homelander is absolute perfection. I liked Stilwell while she lasted as well, and thought she did great as the somewhat cold corporate stooge. I don't buy for a second that Vought would let Homelander's son live a normal life in suburbia, especially when they grew him in a lab. 

I'm also a bit disappointed that the supes have not been such total fuckups. Maeve, A-Train, Deep, Translucent - they're not really particularly weird. A-Train in particular isn't anything special either. We haven't gotten into any of the horrible things that they get up to save, I guess, the Believe guy. Maeve even was a hero for a bit and was heroic. This goes into the weird messaging of the story that Wert and others talked about - the story talks about how Supes are huge perverts and lawless and whatnot, but they're really not particularly hideous save Homelander; the rest are just kind of okay people. Again, I don't know why Butcher would have a hard on for Supes in general when it's only Homelander that appears to be bad, and even that seems to be him fucking Butcher's wife as the 'bad' stuff he does. 

 

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There was quite a bit of backstory that was setup, but with barely any reveals. For example, Lamplighter

Spoiler

is mentioned to have retired from the Seven at the start of the series. Later we learn he killed the old lady's grandkids, and Frenchie was somehow responsible for that because he went off mission plan. But we don't learn more. Is Lamplighter really retired, or actually dead, and Vought covered it up? I saw a bit of a comics spoiler saying he joins or joined The Boys. 

I'm glad the show got renewed, because while the world was pretty well constructed, the story needs a clearer big picture, and as Kalbear mentioned above, some characters are in dire need of backgrounds to explain their motivations.

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2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

So...hmm. I've read the comics and enjoyed them, problems and all. And this series is good, but boy is it not the comics. To whit:

  Hide contents

Changing Butcher's origin story like that is really really odd. He isn't remotely the tough guy that he is in the comics, certainly not the brawler that will get into any fight. We got a smidgen of that in the fight with translucent, but only just. But really, changing his wife not dying in front of him and his blaming supes for it makes him go from a guy with a reasonable, if not extreme, plot of vengeance to, well, someone who is kind of insane and wants to kill supes because...reasons? And he's just this kind of homeless dude with no resources and money? 

And that's his motivation - what's MMs and Frenchie's? They have almost no backstory in the show, but what they have gives them no reason to go after supes whatsoever. Why would MM do it? He isn't trying to get revenge on Vought like he was in the books; his brother didn't die of getting V, and his mother didn't mutate either. Heck, his whole nickname makes zero sense. Frenchie is a better character in the show, but there's also very little reason that he would be doing what he's doing. 

Starlight throwing up at the end of the season means she's pregnant, and god that sucks. Just...don't do that plotline please. Just don't. 

The final ep made so little actual sense. How did Starlight find them in this supermax facility? I guess she had security clearances so maybe she could ask around. Okay...so how did A-Train find them? He just...shows up? The fuck? 

Butcher being not part of the CIA or anything like that along with the Boys makes things very weird. So, basically, they're terrorists? I mean, in one part they went to a hospital and brutally killed a bunch of security guards. In another part they wiped out a bunch of random people who were getting carried out in body bags. Why aren't they in jail for, like, ever? In the comic this made some sense because the CIA was actually covering for them some (and Vought didn't want to get too into it). But here, they've got basically nothing at all. 

I don't get what the fuck they're doing with the Deep. I'm sure they thought it was super funny or whatever, but I just don't care about him and every second he's on he's wasting my time. 

I do like that they're expanding Starlight's role and character. I like that they're also showing a similar story to 15 million credits - the idea that even rebellion will be packaged and marketed and exploited. In the end you're part of the system whether you want to be or not. I like that Hughie is more competent, I like Frenchie not being, well, so incredibly weird, and the Homelander is absolute perfection. I liked Stilwell while she lasted as well, and thought she did great as the somewhat cold corporate stooge. I don't buy for a second that Vought would let Homelander's son live a normal life in suburbia, especially when they grew him in a lab. 

I'm also a bit disappointed that the supes have not been such total fuckups. Maeve, A-Train, Deep, Translucent - they're not really particularly weird. A-Train in particular isn't anything special either. We haven't gotten into any of the horrible things that they get up to save, I guess, the Believe guy. Maeve even was a hero for a bit and was heroic. This goes into the weird messaging of the story that Wert and others talked about - the story talks about how Supes are huge perverts and lawless and whatnot, but they're really not particularly hideous save Homelander; the rest are just kind of okay people. Again, I don't know why Butcher would have a hard on for Supes in general when it's only Homelander that appears to be bad, and even that seems to be him fucking Butcher's wife as the 'bad' stuff he does. 

 

I'm not too bothered by Butcher's motivations

Spoiler

I think it's an interesting thing to examine. A person who thinks their wife was raped and murdered by a supe / corporation, probably fed that BS by Mallory for her own reasons / vendetta against Vought / Supes. But now it's revealed that not only was his wife definitely not murdered, the sex with Homelander might well have been totally consenual. Jumping to conclusions on the basis of limited information is not exactly unrealistic. Govts have justified starting wars in the real world, for their own reasons, based on this kind of thing.

This revelation should cause a crisis of conscience in a normal person, so how will Butcher respond? And even while revising the original motivations for wanting to destroy Vought and Homelander, do the truth's he's uncovered since then justify him continuing on his course?

 

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4 hours ago, Corvinus said:

There was quite a bit of backstory that was setup, but with barely any reveals. For example, Lamplighter

  Hide contents

is mentioned to have retired from the Seven at the start of the series. Later we learn he killed the old lady's grandkids, and Frenchie was somehow responsible for that because he went off mission plan. But we don't learn more. Is Lamplighter really retired, or actually dead, and Vought covered it up? I saw a bit of a comics spoiler saying he joins or joined The Boys. 

I'm glad the show got renewed, because while the world was pretty well constructed, the story needs a clearer big picture, and as Kalbear mentioned above, some characters are in dire need of backgrounds to explain their motivations.

Err no, with respect to lamplighter. 

Spoiler

Lamplighter gets handed over to the boys in order to make amends for what lamplighter did, which was go off and murder Mallory's grandkids. It was in response to butcher trying to blackmail one of the seven. Homelander, iirc, basically obliterates a platoon of specops forces that were going to back up butchers team just to show he can, and then he hands over lamplighter. 

Lamplighter is then executed by Mallory. And that's when they disband. 

In the comic they use V to resurrect lamplighter for a bit but the resurrection doesnt work very well and hes basically useless, so they retire him. And that's when starlight joins the team. 

 

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5 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Err no, with respect to lamplighter. 

  Reveal hidden contents

Lamplighter gets handed over to the boys in order to make amends for what lamplighter did, which was go off and murder Mallory's grandkids. It was in response to butcher trying to blackmail one of the seven. Homelander, iirc, basically obliterates a platoon of specops forces that were going to back up butchers team just to show he can, and then he hands over lamplighter. 

Lamplighter is then executed by Mallory. And that's when they disband. 

In the comic they use V to resurrect lamplighter for a bit but the resurrection doesnt work very well and hes basically useless, so they retire him. And that's when starlight joins the team. 

 

I don't know the comics at all, but my point was that there was something setup with Lamplighter but no payoff yet. But thanks for the comics rundown, at least I know there's more material they can adapt.

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I think I liked this more than most on the thread so far... we polished it off in a day.... I thought urban was terrific, and Starr was friggin fantastic... a completely charming sociopath...  I read the comics, and I was cool with the changes, especially the Deep... 

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19 hours ago, Kalbear said:

So...hmm. I've read the comics and enjoyed them, problems and all. And this series is good, but boy is it not the comics. To whit:

  Hide contents

Changing Butcher's origin story like that is really really odd. He isn't remotely the tough guy that he is in the comics, certainly not the brawler that will get into any fight. We got a smidgen of that in the fight with translucent, but only just. But really, changing his wife not dying in front of him and his blaming supes for it makes him go from a guy with a reasonable, if not extreme, plot of vengeance to, well, someone who is kind of insane and wants to kill supes because...reasons? And he's just this kind of homeless dude with no resources and money? 

And that's his motivation - what's MMs and Frenchie's? They have almost no backstory in the show, but what they have gives them no reason to go after supes whatsoever. Why would MM do it? He isn't trying to get revenge on Vought like he was in the books; his brother didn't die of getting V, and his mother didn't mutate either. Heck, his whole nickname makes zero sense. Frenchie is a better character in the show, but there's also very little reason that he would be doing what he's doing. 

Starlight throwing up at the end of the season means she's pregnant, and god that sucks. Just...don't do that plotline please. Just don't. 

The final ep made so little actual sense. How did Starlight find them in this supermax facility? I guess she had security clearances so maybe she could ask around. Okay...so how did A-Train find them? He just...shows up? The fuck? 

Butcher being not part of the CIA or anything like that along with the Boys makes things very weird. So, basically, they're terrorists? I mean, in one part they went to a hospital and brutally killed a bunch of security guards. In another part they wiped out a bunch of random people who were getting carried out in body bags. Why aren't they in jail for, like, ever? In the comic this made some sense because the CIA was actually covering for them some (and Vought didn't want to get too into it). But here, they've got basically nothing at all. 

I don't get what the fuck they're doing with the Deep. I'm sure they thought it was super funny or whatever, but I just don't care about him and every second he's on he's wasting my time. 

I do like that they're expanding Starlight's role and character. I like that they're also showing a similar story to 15 million credits - the idea that even rebellion will be packaged and marketed and exploited. In the end you're part of the system whether you want to be or not. I like that Hughie is more competent, I like Frenchie not being, well, so incredibly weird, and the Homelander is absolute perfection. I liked Stilwell while she lasted as well, and thought she did great as the somewhat cold corporate stooge. I don't buy for a second that Vought would let Homelander's son live a normal life in suburbia, especially when they grew him in a lab. 

I'm also a bit disappointed that the supes have not been such total fuckups. Maeve, A-Train, Deep, Translucent - they're not really particularly weird. A-Train in particular isn't anything special either. We haven't gotten into any of the horrible things that they get up to save, I guess, the Believe guy. Maeve even was a hero for a bit and was heroic. This goes into the weird messaging of the story that Wert and others talked about - the story talks about how Supes are huge perverts and lawless and whatnot, but they're really not particularly hideous save Homelander; the rest are just kind of okay people. Again, I don't know why Butcher would have a hard on for Supes in general when it's only Homelander that appears to be bad, and even that seems to be him fucking Butcher's wife as the 'bad' stuff he does. 

 

Spoiler

I dunno, in the show Butchers motivation was that his was wife was raped ( or possibly he knew she just shagged him) and then possibly murdered. I think that is pretty good motivation. 

I also don’t think he is just so homeless guy with resources. It seems clear from previous conversations that the CIA either provides for him now or did in the past or there is at least some sort of relationship there, even if he burnt some bridges. Frenchie at least seems to have access to resources from what I could tell.

What I’m getting a lot of from this thread is that people want everything explained as well. I’m happy with MM’s motivation for killing supes, clearly something has happened and they haven’t told us, but we don’t need to know that yet to understand that he has motivation ( not as much as Butcher)

Either way I think this is a great show, I’ve loved every minute of it, it’s superior to pretty much every Netflix Marvel show so far except maybe S1 of DD. I’m not sure I agree with any of the criticism I’ve seen so far of the show, especially around ‘what it’s trying to say?!’. 

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11 minutes ago, Heartofice said:
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I dunno, in the show Butchers motivation was that his was wife was raped ( or possibly he knew she just shagged him) and then possibly murdered. I think that is pretty good motivation. 

I also don’t think he is just so homeless guy with resources. It seems clear from previous conversations that the CIA either provides for him now or did in the past or there is at least some sort of relationship there, even if he burnt some bridges. Frenchie at least seems to have access to resources from what I could tell.

What I’m getting a lot of from this thread is that people want everything explained as well. I’m happy with MM’s motivation for killing supes, clearly something has happened and they haven’t told us, but we don’t need to know that yet to understand that he has motivation ( not as much as Butcher)

Either way I think this is a great show, I’ve loved every minute of it, it’s superior to pretty much every Netflix Marvel show so far except maybe S1 of DD. I’m not sure I agree with any of the criticism I’ve seen so far of the show, especially around ‘what it’s trying to say?!’. 

On Butcher's motivation:

Spoiler

I think it's great motivation to go after Homelander. I think it's not particularly good motivation to go after all supes in general. Why would he hate A-Train, or Starlight even? I mean, Butcher thinks that Hughie doing anything with her is a horrible idea because she's a supe...and that's it. He believes every single supe is totally fucking evil. But at least so far the only reason we have for that is that he's pissed at Homelander...and a lot of the supes are hypocrites. 

On resources in general:

Spoiler

I think he has some money (though throughout the show they were looking to get some money) but they don't have any kind of clout. They are constantly on the run, constantly having to hide, constantly worried about being found out by the law - but that doesn't jive with the kind of big-profile things they're doing. The part with the shootout and the Female should have caused a city-wide manhunt alone. They weren't protected then. Blowing up an apartment with C-4 is another one like that - when you have a massive explosion it tends to attract witnesses and attention. In the comics they explain this by having the CIA cover them up over and over. In this? They got nothing.

On the rest of the motivation:

Spoiler

I don't want MM's spelled out, and I don't need Frenchie's specifically either. But it's...well, it's weird to call him MM when he doesn't have powers. He got that nickname in the comics because his mom got some V through the air and food after working in a Vought plant and developed weird powers, and he became super weak and frail except when nursing - and he had to do that for his entire life. He had a vendetta against Vought because his dad fought them in court for decades, finally won, and then his brother died (due to a V mutation) and his father just couldn't take it any more and died as well.

And none of that - his nickname, his backstory, his motivation - can be even close to the same in this story. As it stands, I don't think they did a good job of even hinting why he'd give up his wife and daughter to basically become a terrorist. So no, they don't need to spell it out, but they do need to give more than a 'was a soldier of Mallory's' as an explanation. 
 

As I said above, I like the show. It's high-cost, well done, and Homelander is likely going to become the next version of Walter White. 

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57 minutes ago, Martini Sigil said:

I think I liked this more than most on the thread so far... we polished it off in a day.... I thought urban was terrific, and Starr was friggin fantastic... a completely charming sociopath...  I read the comics, and I was cool with the changes, especially the Deep... 

My problem with the Deep is they set him up as a monster yet spend the rest of the time making him seem a bit of a victim. I guess the intention is to make him out to be a pathetic idiot but he was trying to help sea-life and being ignored which i felt was valid. I guess it could be intentional but usually it's ill advised to make

a rapist

sympathetic or endearing. I'm only 4 episodes in but feel his actions and his victim haven't really been explored properly. It may be resolved in remaining episodes so i'll wait and see.

Also a strange change from the comic where Homelander was responsible for what the Deep did in episode 1.

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1 hour ago, red snow said:

My problem with the Deep is they set him up as a monster yet spend the rest of the time making him seem a bit of a victim. I guess the intention is to make him out to be a pathetic idiot but he was trying to help sea-life and being ignored which i felt was valid. I guess it could be intentional but usually it's ill advised to make

  Hide contents

a rapist

sympathetic or endearing. I'm only 4 episodes in but feel his actions and his victim haven't really been explored properly. It may be resolved in remaining episodes so i'll wait and see.

Also a strange change from the comic where Homelander was responsible for what the Deep did in episode 1.

I hear ya... and you're not wrong... I never viewed him as sympathetic though... pathetic maybe, but a loser with powers.... and I think that the loss of that stupid head thing he wore in the comic is a big improvement... LOL

Side note... of all the dumb, nerdy shit I own, one of my favs is that I have all 12 issues of The Boys autographed by Garth Ennis... who was a delight in person.

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Having watched the first four episodes in one go on Saturday, I've not been motivated to finish the series off. I will, just got sidetracked by other things.

I think my main issue with the show is how absolutely contemptuous it is not just towards superheroes but it feels people who like superhero stories. At times there's a real anger to it, although it's more of the "trying too hard to be edgy" kind. Obviously pairing Ennis, who dislikes superheroes, with Eric Kripke who seems to really hate them (the recent interview with him going a bit nuts and yelling that in real life every superhero would be Bill Cosby was very odd), might not have been the best idea there. Perhaps going with someone who was capable of a bit more nuance.

It also might have been better if the Seven hadn't just been the Justice League with the file numbers sawn off. At least when Moore did Watchmen he picked some much more obscure heroes to riff of.

25 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

There were 12 graphic novels, which is what I assume they meant.

 

Quote

 

do any episodes pass the bechdel test? serious question. the title and trailer don't make me feel confident that it treats its non-male characters well or gives them much to do.

 

In the first four, I don't think so. I can only recall one conversation between two female characters by themselves and it lasts about 5 seconds in a toilet stall.

Oh hang on, there's a couple of scenes where one of the staff asks Starlight to get ready for a mission or something, which might pass muster. It's very low hanging fruit.

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3 hours ago, Underfoot said:

do any episodes pass the bechdel test? serious question. the title and trailer don't make me feel confident that it treats its non-male characters well or gives them much to do.

Yes, several do. The Mary Sue gave it a surprisingly good review in that way. I won't lie, it's mostly men, but the women have a lot to do, and the women are in general the better characters in the show with better arcs (aside from Homelander). In particular Stillwell is amazing. 

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4 hours ago, Underfoot said:

do any episodes pass the bechdel test? serious question. the title and trailer don't make me feel confident that it treats its non-male characters well or gives them much to do.

I'm still not very good at naturally assessing TV / movies, I have to make a conscious effort, and my conscious brain if often not highly engaged when watching pop culture. I'm more likely to notice overt sexism / racism / homophobia when in a passive viewing mode. I didn't get that kind of vibe from the show. I do get a better steer on homophobic content of shows from my son, being gay he's much more alert to such content than I am.

Spoiler

Deep's gill rape scene seemed really odd to me. Why would a supe allow some mundane person to sexually abuse him in that way? He certainly doesn't lack for physical power to stop it, and the woman had no mental or psychological hold over him (like he was able to convince Starlight he had). I can only imagine he decided to accept the pain as some kind of self-flagellation / punishment for killing the dolphin. In which case he wasn't really gill raped. So that scene generated no sympathy in me. Being sent to purgatory in some shit hole town and having no role in the military is getting off lightly for what he did to Starlight, IMO. My sympathy for him is more compartmentalised to his genuine concern for the marine ecosystem and the wellbeing of  marine life held captive for entertainment purposes and that he gets no buy in from others in this regard. But that's because I have sympathy for those issues, not for him personally.

 

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49 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I'm still not very good at naturally assessing TV / movies, I have to make a conscious effort, and my conscious brain if often not highly engaged when watching pop culture. I'm more likely to notice overt sexism / racism / homophobia when in a passive viewing mode. I didn't get that kind of vibe from the show. I do get a better steer on homophobic content of shows from my son, being gay he's much more alert to such content than I am.

  Reveal hidden contents

Deep's gill rape scene seemed really odd to me. Why would a supe allow some mundane person to sexually abuse him in that way? He certainly doesn't lack for physical power to stop it, and the woman had no mental or psychological hold over him (like he was able to convince Starlight he had). I can only imagine he decided to accept the pain as some kind of self-flagellation / punishment for killing the dolphin. In which case he wasn't really gill raped. So that scene generated no sympathy in me. Being sent to purgatory in some shirt hole town and having no role in the military is getting off lightly for what he did to Starlight, IMO. My sympathy for him is more compartmentalised to his genuine concern for the marine ecosystem and the wellbeing of  marine life held captive for entertainment purposes and that he gets no buy in from others in this regard. But that's because I have sympathy for those issues, not for him personally.

 

 

2 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Yes, several do. The Mary Sue gave it a surprisingly good review in that way. I won't lie, it's mostly men, but the women have a lot to do, and the women are in general the better characters in the show with better arcs (aside from Homelander). In particular Stillwell is amazing. 

thanks - may give it a try some day but it's not high on my list 

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10 hours ago, Kalbear said:

 

Spoiler

It seems clear why Butcher is obsessed with going after Homelander, but his hate for Supes in general could just be overflow from that, or my assumption is that his time working with Mallory has soured him on Supes and him being able to see just how appalling most of them are compared to how they are portrayed has made him truly hate them. Again, I don't need it spelled out for me.

I do agree however that the Boys do seem to make some high profile hits that should end with bigger consequences. They did manage to kill Translucent with Vought not immediately caring however. Plus it does seem that the CIA/FBI are less than enamoured with the Supes and so might not work too hard to investigate.

 on MM and Frenchies motivations, I feel like maybe you reading the comics means you are over thinking it or creating expectations that a non reader doesn't have. I haven't read them and I'm perfectly fine to fill in the blanks here. There has clearly been events that have happened in the past we aren't privy to and I;m happy to wait it out and see if they reveal more later.

 

8 hours ago, Werthead said:

I think my main issue with the show is how absolutely contemptuous it is not just towards superheroes but it feels people who like superhero stories.

Maybe, though I'm not sure this is in any way a negative. It is cynical about a world in which superheroes exist, about how that would play out. If you watch the whole season you'd find out the reasons why the Supes are generally broken people as well, so in some ways its not a comment on how Superheroes would be, but more about how this set of superheroes under these circumstances behave. 

I do think there is a sort of optimism in the show however when it comes to

 

Supes. There is a thread of the story about how some people do just want to do some good and help people out but get beaten down and prevented from doing it. Like we all want to see these guys be heroes but commercialism prevents it.

 

8 hours ago, Underfoot said:

do any episodes pass the bechdel test? serious question. the title and trailer don't make me feel confident that it treats its non-male characters well or gives them much to do.

I detected a couple of scenes that didn't pass the test in the show and so I smashed the tv in pieces with a hammer and sent an angrily worded letter to the producers. Hopefully we can all do the same.

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10 hours ago, Martini Sigil said:

I hear ya... and you're not wrong... I never viewed him as sympathetic though... pathetic maybe, but a loser with powers.... and I think that the loss of that stupid head thing he wore in the comic is a big improvement... LOL

Side note... of all the dumb, nerdy shit I own, one of my favs is that I have all 12 issues of The Boys autographed by Garth Ennis... who was a delight in person.

It probably is more pathetic and comedy character than sympathetic. Plus, not looking as bad/scary as Homelander isn't exactly hard.

Pleased to hear Ennis was a gent when you met him. It's always nice when creators take time for fans. Those 12 issues signed are probably worth quite a bit now the show is out :)

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4 hours ago, The Anti-Targ said:

I'm still not very good at naturally assessing TV / movies, I have to make a conscious effort, and my conscious brain if often not highly engaged when watching pop culture. I'm more likely to notice overt sexism / racism / homophobia when in a passive viewing mode. I didn't get that kind of vibe from the show. I do get a better steer on homophobic content of shows from my son, being gay he's much more alert to such content than I am.

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Deep's gill rape scene seemed really odd to me. Why would a supe allow some mundane person to sexually abuse him in that way? He certainly doesn't lack for physical power to stop it, and the woman had no mental or psychological hold over him (like he was able to convince Starlight he had). I can only imagine he decided to accept the pain as some kind of self-flagellation / punishment for killing the dolphin. In which case he wasn't really gill raped. So that scene generated no sympathy in me. Being sent to purgatory in some shit hole town and having no role in the military is getting off lightly for what he did to Starlight, IMO. My sympathy for him is more compartmentalised to his genuine concern for the marine ecosystem and the wellbeing of  marine life held captive for entertainment purposes and that he gets no buy in from others in this regard. But that's because I have sympathy for those issues, not for him personally.

 

Your hidden comments sum up my conflicted feelings regarding the character. Thanks for helping clarify in my head regarding sympathy for the issues, not the character.

 

6 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Yes, several do. The Mary Sue gave it a surprisingly good review in that way. I won't lie, it's mostly men, but the women have a lot to do, and the women are in general the better characters in the show with better arcs (aside from Homelander). In particular Stillwell is amazing. 

It's a good example of how the Bechdel test can be uninformative or at least misrepresent. That said i can't think of a scene that would pass. Starlight's conversation with her agent might count but at least one of those conversations was about her beating some men up and there were often two PR guys around in other scenes. All the women who work for VA in a non "hero" capacity seem to particularly strong with Stillwell sitting at the top.

 

9 hours ago, Werthead said:

I think my main issue with the show is how absolutely contemptuous it is not just towards superheroes but it feels people who like superhero stories. At times there's a real anger to it, although it's more of the "trying too hard to be edgy" kind. Obviously pairing Ennis, who dislikes superheroes, with Eric Kripke who seems to really hate them (the recent interview with him going a bit nuts and yelling that in real life every superhero would be Bill Cosby was very odd), might not have been the best idea there. Perhaps going with someone who was capable of a bit more nuance.

It also might have been better if the Seven hadn't just been the Justice League with the file numbers sawn off. At least when Moore did Watchmen he picked some much more obscure heroes to riff of.

 

The contempt is a Garth Ennis thing - he seems to really hate superheroes and does get digs in at how they are published and marketed and occasionally takes a pop at readers of superhero comics. But he's been surprisingly successful so comic fans don't seem to be upset about a bit of mockery. So I'd say Kripke is merely doing a good job of translating it to screen. I don't think it's actually as mocking as Garth Ennis' comics are to be honest.

To be fair the seven are meant to be the justice league so it was an active choice by Ennis to do so. He's saying "this is what I think the Justice League would be like". I agree, it has the added bonus of being expedient when creating new characters as well. When the Boys was released the Justice League were still far more recognisable than the Avengers. Homelander is clearly an amalgamation of Superman and captain america though. 

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