What made Ser Gerold Stay?

[JNR]

On 7/29/2019 at 6:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

I think we can take it as a given that Aerys II knew perfectly well where Hightower, Dayne, and Whent were after Rhaegar had returned to court and what their mission was (even if he himself didn't give the order).

You're right; he almost certainly did. 

However, the canon never establishes what that mission/order was. 

In time we'll find out, and some on this site will be quite shocked.  They really shouldn't be.  The canon all but gives it away.

On 7/29/2019 at 6:58 PM, Lord Varys said:

But in the end it is also quite clear that we don't know at this point whether Aerys II ever told or implied to the rebels that he had Lyanna Stark.

We know such a concept cannot be found anywhere in roughly two million words of canon, or the World book for that matter... even though it would have been profoundly relevant in numerous passages, such as Ned's chat with Robert in the crypts about Lyanna.

So it's a little like saying "We don't know at this point whether Aerys invented pizza." 

That's true; we don't.  It's possible he did.  But it seems preposterously unlikely.

Meanwhile, we do know the app contains blatantly false information, such as Melisandre's place of origin.  The canon shows us it's definitely not Asshai; the app maintains it is Asshai. 

Why is that?  Maybe it's because the app is only like the appendices in the books -- it only reflects general beliefs, not objective truths.

Another example.  Let's suppose the app is objective truth.  If so, then R+L=J is completely exploded as a theory, because the app states flatly that Jon's father is Eddard, that the Stark kids are his siblings (and not his cousins), etc, etc.  Thus, Jon's father cannot possibly be Rhaegar Targaryen.

Another example.  The app states flatly that Rhaegar's son Aegon died in King's Landing, and also that he has used Young Griff as an alias.  But this is a total contradiction, because if he died in King's Landing, he never used Young Griff as an alias... and if he used Young Griff as an alias, he never died in King's Landing.

So these are our only choices:

1. The app is like the appendices, and contains widely-held beliefs, but its information is not objectively true at all

2. The app contains objective truths

For me, the only choice. the obvious choice, is 1.

 

[Lord Varys]

17 hours ago, Chancho said:

Well KG Whent went to harrenhal and sundely we got the greatest tourney of all, with rhaegar wanting to gather with all the greatests lords of the realm to chat some important business (and perhaps "changes being made"), most of this kingsguard were probably on board with rhaegar suckerpunching the king.. Gerold being the commander was at least giving a blind eye by then.

We actually do know that Rhaegar trusted some Kingsguard more than others (Dayne, Whent) because Selmy tells us as much in ADwD. He implied back then already that something had been going on behind the Harrenhal tourney but he himself had not known anything about that.

It is pretty likely that Hightower didn't know more than Selmy about all that - but he certainly would have known all about the king's suspicions in relations to Rhaegar considering that he sat on the Small Council.

However, it is pretty clear that Aerys II grew much worse during the events leading up to the Rebellion (burning the Starks, demanding the heads of Ned and Robert) and during the actual war where he also continued to burn a lot of people.

Thus one certainly can make the case that Hightower's view of Aerys pre-Rebellion changed during the Rebellion.

The fever dream is no good evidence for anything, anyway, and Jaime's memories of discussions with both Darry and Hightower certainly don't have to be read as confirmation that these men were die-hard Aerys loyalists - if just confirms that they really wanted Jaime to behave and not openly resist the king to get himself killed or to actually snap and become a kingslayer. He was a young man who obviously struggled with his duties.

17 hours ago, Chancho said:

it's not like Martin took of his ass... It's very george martin making kingsguard being a bunch of hypocrites...

There is certainly also expected that Aerys II's Kingsguard will be cast down from those pedestals they have been put on. They were just human beings, too, and we already learned that Lewyn Martell didn't keep his vows, we have reason to believe that Whent and Dayne conspired with Rhaegar against their king, etc.

[Ckram]

5 hours ago, JNR said:

So these are our only choices:

1. The app is like the appendices, and contains widely-held beliefs, but its information is not objectively true at all

2. The app contains objective truths

What about #3 "the app has truths, errors and beliefs but we can't tell which is which"?

Honest question, not trying to mock you nor favoring my points. Just wanna know your opinion.

[Wolfbynature]

To me it is very obvious what happened. G.R.R.M. gives us a hint when he shows us Jamie Lannister´s fate. Vows are there to be broken. And to turn the KG´s loyalty from Aerys to Rhaegar, their vows did´nt needet to be broken, just a little bent. 

So there was´nt just a secret merriage (R + L) there was a kind of secret "crowning" as well. There was a inner circle that accepted Rhaegar as the new King. Therefore, e.g. Hightower accepted the order of his new King Rhaegar to protect the new royal familiy. Therefore he stayed at the Tower of Joy and did´nt returned to the  "dethroned" Aerys II. Even after Rheagars death, because there was an new heir, Lyanna´s child. 

[Lord Varys]

28 minutes ago, Wolfbynature said:

To me it is very obvious what happened. G.R.R.M. gives us a hint when he shows us Jamie Lannister´s fate. Vows are there to be broken. And to turn the KG´s loyalty from Aerys to Rhaegar, their vows did´nt needet to be broken, just a little bent. 

So there was´nt just a secret merriage (R + L) there was a kind of secret "crowning" as well. There was a inner circle that accepted Rhaegar as the new King. Therefore, e.g. Hightower accepted the order of his new King Rhaegar to protect the new royal familiy. Therefore he stayed at the Tower of Joy and did´nt returned to the  "dethroned" Aerys II. Even after Rheagars death, because there was an new heir, Lyanna´s child. 

Not sure I buy that all that much, but I certainly buy and have often put forth the idea that, if we draw something from the fever dream (which I'm not all that keen of doing), the vow the KG there reference is not the vow(s) of the Kingsguard, but rather a vow they may have sworn to Rhaegar around the time he left. A vow to protect her and her unborn child against anyone and anything.

The Kingsguard certainly are free to swear additional vows, and we see one of them actually doing that during the Dance of the Dragons:

Quote

Ser Rickard Thorne was commanded to deliver two-year-old Prince Maelor to Lord Hightower. Princess Jaehaera, a sweet and simple girl of six, was put in the charge of Ser Willis Fell, who swore to bring her safely to Storm’s End.

If Fell swore an additional vow to bring Jaehaera to Storm's End, Hightower, Dayne, and Whent could also have sworn additional vows to keep Lyanna and her unborn child safe.

[Ckram]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

A vow to protect her and her unborn child against anyone and anything.

This kind of vow really fits with the KG behavior in the fever dream (and with general idea we have regarding what happened at the tower of joy).

However, examing from Rhaegar's perspective, this is a rather dull vow to ask from them if he really contemplated the chance of defeat.

Save Rhaegar been overly confident due to a "guy in love" positive perspective of the future (naming the Tower "of Joy" and his "changes will be made when I comeback" speech points to that direction), he should had known better and had a escape plan for his family. Or at least his child, in case Lyanna had birth complications.

In fact, did he need to make escape plan for Lyanna in case her brother or her bethroted won the war? Or at that time it was clear for everybody that Robert would take the Throne over dead children's bodies?

So I think it's odd to ask Gerold, Dayne and Whent to fight to the death no matter who was in the Iron Throne after the Trident or who came to rescue Lyanna if the Targaryen had lost the war.

[JNR]

On 7/31/2019 at 5:26 PM, Ckram said:

What about #3 "the app has truths, errors and beliefs but we can't tell which is which"?

Honest question, not trying to mock you nor favoring my points. Just wanna know your opinion.

Well, I agree with your description.  But your #3 is essentially the same as my #1, because truth is a subset of belief -- a smaller circle inside a larger one.

Most of what's believed is in fact the truth.  The Starks are a Great House, Ned was Lord of Winterfell, he had a sister named Lyanna, and at Harrenhal, Rhaegar gave her a crown of winter roses... etc.  All widely believed, and all quite true.

But the app and appendices both express some beliefs that are almost certainly not true.  It's our challenge to try to work them out, if we can.  GRRM is a tricksy bird and constantly writes tiny puzzles into his fiction.

Just as an example of what I mean, consider this little gem from AGOT.  I'll divide it into logical chunks for discussion.

Quote

(1) Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. (2) It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but (3) for Ned it was a bitter memory.

(1) is Ned's direct memory.  It is true as far as I'm concerned.

(2) is a bit trickier because of the boldfaced, which to me means it is only a rumor... not a fact.  It is not established that Rhaegar named the tower that, but only that people say that he did. 

(3) is obviously another memory and is true.  Ned has no fondness for what happened there.