Ramsay and Euron

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Sigella said:

 

Milgram experiment gives this one to @John Suburbs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Most people does torture and kill if instructed to by an authority figure. F'd up and sad, it is probably why it keeps happening: the unpleasantness of killing someone gets taken out of the equation when the one who orders it doesn't have to do it himself (or even watch it). Like Cersei having ptsd after seeing Qyburn working the Blue Bard - by her own order. 

Awesome topic! Thanks

I can sort of feel for both of them actually.

I see little bastard Ramsay being a bit unruly, prompting Reek to appear and Ramsay (imagining Roose might care about him if he was more like Reek, flayed man-mentality and all) modelling himself on an extremely off-putting madman. I have no qualms seeing Reek giving Ram and his mother living hell and destroying them both and building something to his liking with the pieces of what was left either. A woman and a child are easy targets for a large man within closed doors.

Euron is more complicated. Too coherent and clear to be scizophrenic (which could explain his more creative endeavours). Too indifferent to be a sadist. Too much suffering inflicted on others for having any empathy at all. So pure psychopathy.

Living without empathy or conscience must be pretty harrowing. You have nothing and no one that matters and there isn't a thing you can do that will feel meaningful because nothing can have any meaning. Gives me the picture of someone who spends their whole life standing all alone in an elevator. And if that is your life you're gonna do a lot messed up stuff in hunt of something that feels meaningful.

No excuses for their acts but I can certainly feel sad for those images.

Interesting take. 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Gregor - kills baby Aegon, rapes Elia & several other women, holds his brothers face to a fire, kills Ser Hugh of the Vale, gang rapes a 13 year old girl with the help of his men, makes Vargo eat himself

Under orders, probably also under orders, as a youth and was not punished if anything rewarded as he became a knight soon after, honestly i think on accident Hugh should not have been on that field.

Gregors a notorious rapist among other things, but with all of his rapes and murders added together it still wouldn't come close to the command he was given during the war of 5. The man commited mass amounts of war crimes (as directed) but not by himself. He may have force fed Vargo himself but he didnt physically burn the riverlands, nor did he physically torture and murder a large amount of their population; That was the army of smallfolk and western peasants that followed a knight into war. 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ramsay - probably killed Domeric, actively participates in flaying people, including Theon, uses his dogs to hunt down women to rape, flay, & kill them, locks up Lady Hornwood & let's her starve to death after forcibly taking her hand & lands, murders 2 peasant boys to pretend they are Bran & Rickon, performs countless atrocities to Theon - performs them, not orders them. 

Maybe, thats mostly Skinner, still Skinner, those are the dogs but i see what your saying, Hornwood was terrible though maybe some of it was Reek, that was Theon, that was Skinner and Sour Alyn and them.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Joff - probably the least on this list but still has things he has done himself. Cuts a pregnant cat open, cuts Mycah, mistreats Sansa & threatens to rape her

As a child, orders Sandor to murder Mycha, thats the KG.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

So the others not getting their hands dirty is clearly false. 

Your right, all of their hands are dirty, but especially Eurons. But the orders they give out are often far more terrible then theyre actual deeds. 

Joffrey shooting a crossbow into a crowd is inexcusable, but it's not nearly as many people as he wanted to put to the sword for rebelling. Nor is Eurons brief civil war compared to the war he just started nor the Westerosi slavetrade thats funding it.

Now can Ramsay the Lord of Winterfell be possibly more awful then what we saw in Dance? We gotta wait for that

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes the one that performs it without being ordered to. In the case of Ramsay for instance - he performs cruelties beyond measure to countless individuals but he has not been ordered to do this. He does it of his own accord. Just because he feels like it. My argument is that someone like Ramsay is more evil than someone like Tywin who has ordered atrocities but is not commiting them himself. 

Most of Ramsays actions are not what I would say "just because he feels like it."

He captured Hornwood, Winterfell, Moat Cailin. He started from the bottom, now hes here. Despite his perversions he still fought to get to where he is today. Tywin was born to be where he is today. 

Tywin was never in a position to commit most of these atrocities, just like Gregor

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I would argue Gregor is responsible for Gregor, the Tickler, & the brave companions. Tywin may be responsible for giving Gregor a direction to unleash himself but he is hardly responsible for Gregor's cruelty. Gregor was a cruel individual long before he met Tywin & would be regardless of Tywin's direction or not, albeit possibly on someone else. 

Tywin knows Gregors cruel, and when Tyrion promised his head, Tywin renigged. And honestly, Gregor was born to be Tywins subject, if its not him itd have been some other fucker smashing Aegons head. 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Even if Roose knew that Reek would corrupt Ramsay (which he didn't according to him, he says he doesn't know if Reek corrupted Ramsay or the other way around) you can still not blame all of Ramsay on Roose. There are too many other factors at play. Certainly some blame lies with his mother for allowing Reek to stay if he was corrupting Ramsay & with Reek himself for doing it, however, Ramsay is given Reek AFTER his mother's pleas for help due to Ramsay being unruly so evidence shows he was having issues well before Reek. 

I dont mean to put it all on Roose, but rather largely influenced by Bolton. To flay is to honor tradition. When Old Nan talked of a Bolton who wore the skin of a Stark, I think skinchanger. With Ramsay naming his bitches Kyra and such, I think skinchanging. Theres reason to the madness of Ramsay, thats one of the scariest things about him

Its like the Ghiscari. They live/lived in an evil culture. It cant be easy to come out a moral person.

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Listen, I'm not disregarding Roose's contribution to Ramsay, I'm saying Roose cannot be the only one at fault 

Agreed. Father, mother, great great grandfather, migraines and opioid addictions (being under orders) all of these are bullshit reasons. The only one to fault for ones hideous actions is oneself

[Hugorfonics]

49 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Tywin is a Machiavellian character, and just like Machiavelli, Tywin is often condemned as evil. But doesn't Tywin do what he does for the honor and glory of his house (however morally misguided)? And isn't that the objective of all lords, great and small, in the world of ASOIAF? 

The objects to win. Tywin got murdered by his son and within a few months his kingdoms already evaporating.

Look, everyone wants to rule the world. Nothing wrong with that lol. But do the ends justify the means?  

Was it necessary to kill Aegon? Was it necessary to inflict the Rains of Castamere?

Tywin always reminded me of Michael Corleone. He had this "dream" of going legit, not just being the best and actually ruling instead of just being above the law. He was a monster. (Who died alone)

39 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Victarion is a brute, but doesn't he show some redeaming quality qhen the looks on with distaste at how Euron treats Lord Hewett's household? And the way he encourages Maester Kerwin to man up? Of course that was before he sacrificed the lad. 

Not really, hes got distaste for Hewett because it reminds him if how Euron humiliated Vic. 

Kerwins ok, not great tho. I mean what's a maester with a knife going to do against sailors of the iron fleet?

Like whats Vic up to now? Pirating so he can gather a force to murder and kidnap to get a larger force to kinslay. Mans not batting 1000 lol

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Under orders, probably also under orders, as a youth and was not punished if anything rewarded as he became a knight soon after, honestly i think on accident Hugh should not have been on that field

I'm not sure what that has to do with our discussion? Under orders he is still doing the deed & some of what he has done was not under orders. I wasn't arguing whether or not he was punished? Hugh should not have been on that field but Gregor did not kill him on accident. 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Gregors a notorious rapist among other things, but with all of his rapes and murders added together it still wouldn't come close to the command he was given during the war of 5. The man commited mass amounts of war crimes (as directed) but not by himself. He may have force fed Vargo himself but he didnt physically burn the riverlands, nor did he physically torture and murder a large amount of their population; That was the army of smallfolk and western peasants that followed a knight into war

Again, not sure where you are going with this? 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Maybe, thats mostly Skinner, still Skinner, those are the dogs but i see what your saying, Hornwood was terrible though maybe some of it was Reek, that was Theon, that was Skinner and Sour Alyn and them

What??? Lol I'm really confused. Ramsay flays people also. What are the dogs? Reek may have participated in Lady Hornwood but the text specifically says Ramsay did it. What was Theon? The Millers kids? IIRC it was kind of left up to interpretation on who actually did the deed but I was under the impression Theon ordered or ok'd & Ramsay carries it out. 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

As a child, orders Sandor to murder Mycha, thats the KG.

Right but I'm not talking about what Joff ordered Sandor or the KG to do. I'm talking about what Joff did his self. The things I listed are things Joffrey did with his own hand. 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Your right, all of their hands are dirty, but especially Eurons. But the orders they give out are often far more terrible then theyre actual deeds

Well, the post I was responding to was your post saying none of these folks "get their hands dirty" not about whether or not their orders are worse than their deeds. 

 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Most of Ramsays actions are not what I would say "just because he feels like it."

He captured Hornwood, Winterfell, Moat Cailin. He started from the bottom, now hes here. Despite his perversions he still fought to get to where he is today. Tywin was born to be where he is today. 

Tywin was never in a position to commit most of these atrocities, just like Gregor

Then why does Ramsay do these things if not because he wants to? Because "he started from the bottom, now he's here" doesn't make a lot of sense to me as a reason. 

I'm not sure what Tywin being in a position to commit the acts him self has to do with what we were talking about. I think if Tywin wanted to do these things rather than order them he could & would. 

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tywin knows Gregors cruel, and when Tyrion promised his head, Tywin renigged. And honestly, Gregor was born to be Tywins subject, if its not him itd have been some other fucker smashing Aegons head. 

Yes Tywin knows Gregor's cruel that's why he picks him for the tasks he does. Because Gregor is cruel with or without Tywin's orders. If Gregor is going to murder, maim, & rape regardless if he is given orders too or not how is the person giving the orders solely responsible for Gregor as a person? What do you mean by "Gregor was born to be Tywin's subject"? I'm sure Tywin would have found someone else to kill Aegon if Gregor didn't exist the same as Gregor would have found his own list of horrible things to do even if Tywin didn't exist. 

[Sigella]

14 hours ago, nyser1 said:

Tywin killed tens of thousands? Really?

 

Anyhow you are forgetting one of the most important intrinsic motivators: intent. Tywin is ruthless and willing to take drastic measures for the purpose of securing his family's power. However, he does not always. “When your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you.” – Tywin, ASOS

 

 

 

Ramsay does cruel things because he enjoys it. There is a difference.

I was unclear: Tywin probably haven't killed anyone by himself, but he is responsible for all the atrocities committed in the Riverlands. It was he who decided to raid/invade so its on him - clean hands and all.

What he did to Tysha and Tyrion certainly wasn't because they were enemies who got served blood and fire.

13 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. I think that's quite an exaggeration about Tywin but regardless the premise is the same. 

I would argue Gregor is responsible for Gregor, the Tickler, & the brave companions. Tywin may be responsible for giving Gregor a direction to unleash himself but he is hardly responsible for Gregor's cruelty. Gregor was a cruel individual long before he met Tywin & would be regardless of Tywin's direction or not, albeit possibly on someone else. 

Yeah sure, Gregor would still be a monster but even if he wanted to kill and torture on Riverlands-scale if not for Tywin giving him an army and the go ahead, he couldn't have: he would have continued rarely leaving his keep and doing bad shit there - rumours of that swirled in aGoT.

Of corse cruel people will commit atrocities in war but when its not them choosing the war, responsibility for it should be on the people who chose  the war.

 

I disagree completely with the arguments about Ramsay being worse because he is a sadist and Tywin being ok because he isn't. People being tortured to death by the Tickler hardly take any solace in lord Tywin not getting aroused by it. Theon doesn't seem to believe that Ramsays arousal is the worst part of it.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

27 minutes ago, Sigella said:

disagree completely with the arguments about Ramsay being worse because he is a sadist and Tywin being ok because he isn't. People being tortured to death by the Tickler hardly take any solace in lord Tywin not getting aroused by it. Theon doesn't seem to believe that Ramsays arousal is the worst part of it.

I didn't say Tywin was ok. Tywin is bad. But on an evil scale he isn't up there with Ramsay to me. 

It's all a matter of opinion I suppose. How do you measure evil? In your mind it's by the amount of deaths caused. In mine it's the manner of the atrocity. Who is more evil?  A person who kills 10 people by shooting them in the head or a person who holds 2 people captive & tortures them to death? Yes, killing the 10 has affected more lives so I assume that is what is worse to you. But what being able to torture someone to death says about that person's psyche tells me that person is "more evil" 

I never said Theon thought the worst part about it was Ramsay's arousal. I'm saying when discussing "evilness", IMO the person that takes joy in the torture of another human being is worse than a person who doesn't on a psychological level. 

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well no, I'm not sure where you came up with any of that because I sure didn't say it. 

Yes Adolph Hitler, Stalin, etc killed people. I never suggested they didn't. 

Yes Tywin is in control of his actions, knows what he is doing, knows how his actions will affect people. 

To me though the person that actually performs the torture of another human being is more evil than the person who ordered it. It's much easier for someone to disconnect themselves from a situation if they are not actively participating. Perhaps if Tywin had to perform any atrocities that he ordered himself he wouldn't do them. We don't know because he doesn't. We do know that Euron, Gregor, Joffrey, Ramsay are capable & willing to perform torture & that to me makes them more evil. 

So the guards at Auschwitz who released the gas are more evil than the man who architected the entire Holocaust?

Sorry, but IMO, the man who orders the evil acts and then disconnects himself from those acts is the more evil. Euron, Gregor and the others you mention  perform these evil acts of their own volition, not because someone orders them to (at least, in the case of Gregor, if Tywin is to be believed). So they own those acts. If a subordinate commits an act because he is ordered to by a superior and will face some form of punishment if he does not commit said act, then IMO, the larger evil belongs to the one who ordered it -- in large part because they are instigating these acts but are too cowardly to carry them out themselves. 

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, Sigella said:

 

Milgram experiment gives this one to @John Suburbs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Most people does torture and kill if instructed to by an authority figure. F'd up and sad, it is probably why it keeps happening: the unpleasantness of killing someone gets taken out of the equation when the one who orders it doesn't have to do it himself (or even watch it). Like Cersei having ptsd after seeing Qyburn working the Blue Bard - by her own order. 

And when you look at the sheer size and scale of the misery that Tywin has unleashed over the land, the sum total of his evil orders is far beyond Euron, Joffrey, Gregor, et. al. combined -- by multiple orders of magnitude. The only other character who even comes close is Dany.

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Tywin is a Machiavellian character, and just like Machiavelli, Tywin is often condemned as evil. But doesn't Tywin do what he does for the honor and glory of his house (however morally misguided)? And isn't that the objective of all lords, great and small, in the world of ASOIAF? 

True. I never said he didn't have a reason to do all the things he's done. But at the end of the day, House Lannister is the single most important thing to him personally -- more so than his children and even his beloved wife. So by unleashing all of this terror across the land, resulting in tens of thousands of deaths, he is acting to benefit his own self-interests. Pure evil precisely because it is so cold and calculating, unlike the actions of Euron, Joffrey, etc., who are themselves the victims of either a physical or emotional deformity that is beyond their control.

[Hugorfonics]

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The Millers kids? IIRC it was kind of left up to interpretation on who actually did the deed but I was under the impression Theon ordered or ok'd & Ramsay carries it out. 

I assumed Theon killed them.

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Well, the post I was responding to was your post saying none of these folks "get their hands dirty" not about whether or not their orders are worse than their deeds. 

Word. I just meant to say that the majority of their crimes are done by their men, just like Tywin. 

Sure Gregor and Ramsay are notorious rapists where Tywin is only known (or assumed) to rape Shae. But Tywins an old man, not physically strong enough to sin like Gregor or Rams nor brave enough to fight on the front lines. 

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 the same as Gregor would have found his own list of horrible things to do even if Tywin didn't exist. 

Probably not. Gregor and his men burnt and massacred the Riverlands. If he never went to war he wouldn't have been given the opportunity to pillage on the grand scale that he did

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Then why does Ramsay do these things if not because he wants to? Because "he started from the bottom, now he's here" doesn't make a lot of sense to me as a reason. 

In the game you win or die, the unrecognized bastard had to work bravely, brilliantly and hard to get where he is today.

And just like Tywin relying on fear, Ramsay utilizes fear as well

Quote

Tales are told of you, Ramsay. I hear them everywhere. People fear you."

"Good."

 

4 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

IMO the person that takes joy in the torture of another human being is worse than a person who doesn't on a psychological level. 

Do we know for sure that Ramsay takes pleasure in torturing Theon? He certainly appears to but that may be a facade in relations to his fear mongering

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 The only other character who even comes close is Dany.

Dany? She doesnt war for the honor of her house. (like Stark, Greyjoy, Lannister, Baratheon, etc) She wars for the freedom of all people in a hugely populated region.

When Tywin a'okd Casatmere did the ends justify the means? Course not. When Dany butchered the elite of Aspator did the ends justify the means? Hell yea!

[John Suburbs]

19 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Dany? She doesnt war for the honor of her house. (like Stark, Greyjoy, Lannister, Baratheon, etc) She wars for the freedom of all people in a hugely populated region.

When Tywin a'okd Casatmere did the ends justify the means? Course not. When Dany butchered the elite of Aspator did the ends justify the means? Hell yea!

Yeeaah, OK. One could argue that what she is really warring for is to take personal possession of the Iron Throne, for the honor of her house, of course. And while freedom is always preferable to bondage, the fact is she slaughtered thousands of men who were merely living in the culture that had been accepted as perfectly normal for thousands of years, none of whom had ever done Dany any harm. And afterward, it's not like these newly freed slaves are living the good life, but that is more an error in judgement than an act of evil.

This is why I said the jury is still out on Dany. Her heart is in the right place, but her methods are brutal, and as a wise man once said, "Most of the evil in this world is done by people with good intentions."

 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Yeeaah, OK. One could argue that what she is really warring for is to take personal possession of the Iron Throne,

Is this what you are arguing? Cuz id disagree, as would her staff who told her not to fight Yunaki or Merreen, as it has nothing to do with the IT

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

. And while freedom is always preferable to bondage, the fact is she slaughtered thousands of men who were merely living in the culture that had been accepted as perfectly normal for thousands of years, none of whom had ever done Dany any harm.

Slaughtered thousands (is that the number) of great masters. Good riddance. Just because they didn't do Dany harm doesn't mean theyre not harmful to humanity. 

For thousands of years the evilness of Slavers Bay has been thriving while Boltons have been flaying. Its wrong and needs to stop.

And frankly, anyone whos aware of evil and is able to quell it yet doesnt, is nothing but an accessory

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

. And afterward, it's not like these newly freed slaves are living the good life, but that is more an error in judgement than an act of evil.

There naturally living a better life because its theirs. Not the great masters

[Sigella]

5 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I didn't say Tywin was ok. Tywin is bad. But on an evil scale he isn't up there with Ramsay to me. 

It's all a matter of opinion I suppose. How do you measure evil? In your mind it's by the amount of deaths caused. In mine it's the manner of the atrocity. Who is more evil?  A person who kills 10 people by shooting them in the head or a person who holds 2 people captive & tortures them to death? Yes, killing the 10 has affected more lives so I assume that is what is worse to you. But what being able to torture someone to death says about that person's psyche tells me that person is "more evil" 

I never said Theon thought the worst part about it was Ramsay's arousal. I'm saying when discussing "evilness", IMO the person that takes joy in the torture of another human being is worse than a person who doesn't on a psychological level. 

True, sorry about that.

I don't just count the deaths though. I make an estimate of total suffering and think the one who is responsible for the biggest amount is more evil, because "most evil acts" wins over "most awful personality" in my personal evil-meter.

I don't really count actions in war either - only what would be war crimes; like torture, rape and senseless killing (think Lommy Greenhands). War and battlefields can certainly contain a lot of suffering and evil acts but they aren't committed against innocent civilians with no part in the war so its not really as evil. Inflicting prolonged torture on someone is the worst of the worst in my mind so its maybe hairsplitting to say which kind of torturer is the worst. But maybe it could be argued that the torturer who takes pleasure in it actually inflicts more pain because he is into it, rather than someone who doesn't.

All this is my opinions, its a very subjective and interesting topic.

 

4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And when you look at the sheer size and scale of the misery that Tywin has unleashed over the land, the sum total of his evil orders is far beyond Euron, Joffrey, Gregor, et. al. combined -- by multiple orders of magnitude. The only other character who even comes close is Dany.

1 daughters to some suspected son of the harpy gets questioned sharply

2 wine seller gets dragged behind the silver to death after trying to murder her

3 child-crucifiers gets crucified

I only count 1 since the rest are severe punishments for legit crimes, so not innocents. If you say "victim blaming" I swear I will jump off a cliff.

Show spoiler:

Spoiler

Some of us still nurses a small hope that things won't be like the abomination but that is another discussion for another part of the forum.

Anyway, that gives Dany one evil-point for every daughter (we don't know how many there were, do we?) putting her well below fellow evil-doers like Cersei, Victarion and Walder Frey. Also we don't know if sharply means to the death, so it could be the daughters didn't die making the evil points worth less than others.

I think Drogo or the businessmen of Slavers Bay easily could be en par with Tywin though  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Sure Gregor and Ramsay are notorious rapists where Tywin is only known (or assumed) to rape Shae. But Tywins an old man, not physically strong enough to sin like Gregor or Rams nor brave enough to fight on the front lines

Why do you think Tywin raped Shae? I don't remember that.

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Probably not. Gregor and his men burnt and massacred the Riverlands. If he never went to war he wouldn't have been given the opportunity to pillage on the grand scale that he did

You're right he probably wouldn't have the oppurtunity to do it on the scale he did because without Tywin he wouldn't have had an army behind him. But he undoubtedly would find someone to murder, maim, & inflict pain upon. 

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

the game you win or die, the unrecognized bastard had to work bravely, brilliantly and hard to get where he is today.

And just like Tywin relying on fear, Ramsay utilizes fear as well

I see what you are saying. I guess for my purposes this falls into "because he wants to". He definitely utilizes it to his advantage. I only used the term to differentiate from those who were given orders to do something vs those who would not. Idk how bravely Ramsay has played the game though. 

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Do we know for sure that Ramsay takes pleasure in torturing Theon? He certainly appears to but that may be a facade in relations to his fear mongering

I mean I guess we don't know what is in Ramsay's heart but he appears to enjoy it so I'm just basing my assumption off of the only info we have. 

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

True, sorry about that

No need to be sorry! Just a friendly discussion here

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

I don't just count the deaths though. I make an estimate of total suffering and think the one who is responsible for the biggest amount is more evil, because "most evil acts" wins over "most awful personality" in my personal evil-meter

Sure, I can understand that & definitely see where you are coming from. "Evil" to me is what is inside said person. While we don't get to see 'inside' of Tywin or Ramsay I'm basing my assumption on what we see of their actions. IMO someone who has not committed any atrocity could potentially be more evil than someone who has. For example: let's say we have a man - let's call him Bob. Bob, in his heart, is a good man. He loves his children & wife. He doesn't find joy in harming anyone or anything. One day he comes home early from work to find his wife & another man in bed together. Bob snaps & shoots both of them killing them both. We have a second man. Let's call him Dave. Dave lusts after children, does not have the capability to love anyone or anything. He has a craving to inflict pain, humiliation, indignation, and any other form of suffering he can think of on another human being. He has not, as of yet, acted on these urges. 

In this scenario Dave is the more evil of the two, to me. Bob isn't great, he killed two people. But Bob snapped & lost control of himself. He feels remorse & wishes he wouldn't have done it. Dave is happy to do these things, he wants to them & if he did he would not feel any remorse. 

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

don't really count actions in war either - only what would be war crimes; like torture, rape and senseless killing (think Lommy Greenhands). War and battlefields can certainly contain a lot of suffering and evil acts but they aren't committed against innocent civilians with no part in the war so its not really as evil. Inflicting prolonged torture on someone is the worst of the worst in my mind so its maybe hairsplitting to say which kind of torturer is the worst. But maybe it could be argued that the torturer who takes pleasure in it actually inflicts more pain because he is into it, rather than someone who doesn't.

All this is my opinions, its a very subjective and interesting topic

Agreed. It's hard to say sometimes who is 'more evil' or when choosing between 2 absolutely atrocious acts, which is worse. It all boils down to how you feel about it I suppose. 

This topic makes me wonder: would I rather be tortured & maimed but left alive, or given a clean, quick death. My initial instinct is to say the clean, quick death but thinking further I'm not so sure. There would be less suffering with death but I would miss out on so much. My kids growing up, my grand kids growing up. Where while the torture may change me beyond repair I would still be around to work on it & try to enjoy life. I don't know. It's a tough scenario. 

[Hugorfonics]

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Why do you think Tywin raped Shae? I don't remember that.

Idk, I kinda think so. Though who really knows what the deal with Shae was?

Quote

She pulled the blankets up to her chin, as if that would protect her.

"Were you expecting someone taller, sweetling?"

Big wet tears filled her eyes. "I never meant those things I said, the queen made me. Please. Your father frightens me so." She sat up, letting the blanket slide down to her lap. Beneath it she was naked, but for the chain about her throat. A chain of linked golden hands, each holding the next

Its weird that Shae was in his bed, its hard to think she was thrilled to be there

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

You're right he probably wouldn't have the oppurtunity to do it on the scale he did because without Tywin he wouldn't have had an army behind him. But he undoubtedly would find someone to murder, maim, & inflict pain upon. 

In medieval times, with that hight, probably. With that helmet and armor almost definitely. Like Rorge with Sandors armor, he turned from a regular criminal into a war criminal.

Though I want to stress this point, Gregors been rewarded every step of the way. His treatment to his brother (and something about his sister) was hushed up and he was soon to be knighted, he became infamous in the sack of KL and was given crucial command during the war of 5. When Tyrion promised justice for Ellia Tywin acted ignorant.

Sandor on the other hand, though he has been handsomely rewarded has found, or finding, redemption. (Gravedigger) This may have started after Blackwater or maybe after the RW, maybe even later. 

Point being, if one Clegane can redeem himself why not the other? Furthermore if major events in current times were absent (like the existence of Tywin) then whos to say the path of redemption wouldn't be shorter?

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I see what you are saying. I guess for my purposes this falls into "because he wants to". He definitely utilizes it to his advantage. I only used the term to differentiate from those who were given orders to do something vs those who would not. 

The thing is Ramsay didnt abduct or marry Hornwood because he wanted to (he probably flayed and raped her for that though, though who knows, it could have mainly beem Reek and it could have been to spread fear) he did it to become a Lord of Westeros. He didnt peel the faces off the millers boy for fun either, he did it to "kill Bran and Rickon" Perhaps he tortured/changed Theon "because he wants to" "have his Reek back" or perhaps its so he could take Moat Cailin in less then an hour with no blood spilt. 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Idk how bravely Ramsay has played the game though. 

Attacking Hornwoods pretty brave, so is sitting in jail under an alias, befriending the man who conquers the castle then breaking the seige to the castle, (outnumbered 5 to 1) but not before shaking hands with the man who arrested you and then showing your face while chopping off his arm, and then burning the castle. 

Hes a brave guy

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 I mean I guess we don't know what is in Ramsay's heart but he appears to enjoy it so I'm just basing my assumption off of the only info we have. 

The Hound says they all enjoy this type of shit, from the smallfolk to the Ned

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, I can understand that & definitely see where you are coming from. "Evil" to me is what is inside said person. While we don't get to see 'inside' of Tywin or Ramsay I'm basing my assumption on what we see of their actions. IMO someone who has not committed any atrocity could potentially be more evil than someone who has. For example: let's say we have a man - let's call him Bob. Bob, in his heart, is a good man. He loves his children & wife. He doesn't find joy in harming anyone or anything. One day he comes home early from work to find his wife & another man in bed together. Bob snaps & shoots both of them killing them both. We have a second man. Let's call him Dave. Dave lusts after children, does not have the capability to love anyone or anything. He has a craving to inflict pain, humiliation, indignation, and any other form of suffering he can think of on another human being. He has not, as of yet, acted on these urges. 

In this scenario Dave is the more evil of the two, to me. Bob isn't great, he killed two people. But Bob snapped & lost control of himself. He feels remorse & wishes he wouldn't have done it. Dave is happy to do these things, he wants to them & if he did he would not feel any remorse. 

(Lol reminds me of that song Guilty Conscience) 

To me, theyre both insane. Bob (Grady) was momentarily while Dave is, uh not. Both men are sick and need help. 

2 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This topic makes me wonder: would I rather be tortured & maimed but left alive, or given a clean, quick death. My initial instinct is to say the clean, quick death but thinking further I'm not so sure. There would be less suffering with death but I would miss out on so much. My kids growing up, my grand kids growing up. Where while the torture may change me beyond repair I would still be around to work on it & try to enjoy life. I don't know. It's a tough scenario. 

I agree. As Tyrion said, death is so final

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

37 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Its weird that Shae was in his bed, its hard to think she was thrilled to be there

I think Shae was in his bed because he paid her to be there, the same as Tyrion had. I can't imagine she was any less thrilled about Tywin's bed than Tyrion's but I suppose it's possible he raped her. Although you would think if she had just been raped Tyrion would have noticed some signs of her distress. 

 

39 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

being, if one Clegane can redeem himself why not the other? Furthermore if major events in current times were absent (like the existence of Tywin) then whos to say the path of redemption wouldn't be shorter?

Sure, I mean anything is possible. But in this particular story one Clegane brother appears to be on the path to redemption & the other most certainly is not. 

 

41 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

thing is Ramsay didnt abduct or marry Hornwood because he wanted to (he probably flayed and raped her for that though, though who knows, it could have mainly beem Reek and it could have been to spread fear) he did it to become a Lord of Westeros. He didnt peel the faces off the millers boy for fun either, he did it to "kill Bran and Rickon" Perhaps he tortured/changed Theon "because he wants to" "have his Reek back" or perhaps its so he could take Moat Cailin in less then an hour 

I understand. Maybe "because he wanted to" was a poor choice of words. What I meant was without an order by someone else, of his own accord. 

Again, anything is possible & it could have been mostly Reek but I think if that were the case the author would have said something like "Ramsay, with the help of Reek..." Or "Reek, on Ramsay's orders..." Or even just "Reek did it." He doesn't though. He says Ramsay did it. 

45 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Attacking Hornwoods pretty brave, so is sitting in jail under an alias, befriending the man who conquers the castle then breaking the seige to the castle, (outnumbered 5 to 1) but not before shaking hands with the man who arrested you and then showing your face while chopping off his arm, and then burning the castle

Lots of people attack people during war. Not saying they are sissies but it's a common thing in the series & not meant to be shown as a particularly brave feat. 

Befriending the man who conquered the castle etc is cunning but not necessarily brave IMO. Although I suppose there is something to be said for being outnumbered. I don't remember it being 5-1 though. 

48 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Hound says they all enjoy this type of shit, from the smallfolk to the Ned

No, the Hound says they all enjoy killing. Not torture. 

[Hugorfonics]

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I understand. Maybe "because he wanted to" was a poor choice of words. What I meant was without an order by someone else, of his own accord. 

Word. To me, theres little difference between Roose ordering Rams to terrorize the North and Ramsay taking it on his own accord to do it. 

If anything, I respect the hustle. Ramsay is a self made man who can think for himself, kinda like Petyr. Not many characters are like that

12 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Although I suppose there is something to be said for being outnumbered. I don't remember it being 5-1 though. 

Quote

"How many men did you lose?" Theon asked Red Helm as he dismounted.

"Twenty or thirty." The torchlight glittered off the chipped enamel of his visor. His helm and gorget were wrought in the shape of a man's face and shoulders, skinless and bloody, mouth open in a silent howl of anguish.

"Ser Rodrik had you five-to-one."

"Aye, but he thought us friends. A common mistake. When the old fool gave me his hand, I took half his arm instead. Then I let him see my face."

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. To me, theres little difference between Roose ordering Rams to terrorize the North and Ramsay taking it on his own accord to do it. 

If anything, I respect the hustle. Ramsay is a self made man who can think for himself, kinda like Petyr. Not many characters are like that

 

I stand corrected. 5-1 are pretty big odds. You're right about him being self-made, I suppose it's just hard for me to give an attribute I consider to be good - like brave, to someone like Ramsay. 

[Hugorfonics]

58 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I stand corrected. 5-1 are pretty big odds. You're right about him being self-made, I suppose it's just hard for me to give an attribute I consider to be good - like brave, to someone like Ramsay. 

Well you already gave him cunning so whats another attribute? Lol.

Ive always liked the bad guy. From Jafar, to Darth Vader and the Joker. They've always fascinated me.

Ramsay Bolton is a different breed. Ive never seen a villain like this and cant help but be in awe throughout his pages

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

22 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Well you already gave him cunning so whats another attribute? Lol.

Ive always liked the bad guy. From Jafar, to Darth Vader and the Joker. They've always fascinated me.

Ramsay Bolton is a different breed. Ive never seen a villain like this and cant help but be in awe throughout his pages

Oh definitely! I enjoy a good bad guy too! Ramsay is very well written & I think if there is a villain of the series, he may be it. It's like a train wreck! You are scared to look, but can't look away!