Ramsay and Euron

[Sigella]

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, I can understand that & definitely see where you are coming from. "Evil" to me is what is inside said person. While we don't get to see 'inside' of Tywin or Ramsay I'm basing my assumption on what we see of their actions. IMO someone who has not committed any atrocity could potentially be more evil than someone who has. For example: let's say we have a man - let's call him Bob. Bob, in his heart, is a good man. He loves his children & wife. He doesn't find joy in harming anyone or anything. One day he comes home early from work to find his wife & another man in bed together. Bob snaps & shoots both of them killing them both. We have a second man. Let's call him Dave. Dave lusts after children, does not have the capability to love anyone or anything. He has a craving to inflict pain, humiliation, indignation, and any other form of suffering he can think of on another human being. He has not, as of yet, acted on these urges. 

In this scenario Dave is the more evil of the two, to me. Bob isn't great, he killed two people. But Bob snapped & lost control of himself. He feels remorse & wishes he wouldn't have done it. Dave is happy to do these things, he wants to them & if he did he would not feel any remorse. 

Nice take

At first I was sure that Bob is more evil; if Dave was born or made into what he is but is holding it back from the world he is actually on the hero scale if completely suppressed - keeping all the misery within his own fantasies instead of inflicting it on innocents and saving them from it.

BUT if he consumes illegal kinds of pornography depicting real people and/or distributing it he slides right back into evil, because that makes him part responsible for it being produced. I don't think Dave able to resist that kinds of stuff, so that is what it would come down to for me. 

19 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Agreed. It's hard to say sometimes who is 'more evil' or when choosing between 2 absolutely atrocious acts, which is worse. It all boils down to how you feel about it I suppose. 

This topic makes me wonder: would I rather be tortured & maimed but left alive, or given a clean, quick death. My initial instinct is to say the clean, quick death but thinking further I'm not so sure. There would be less suffering with death but I would miss out on so much. My kids growing up, my grand kids growing up. Where while the torture may change me beyond repair I would still be around to work on it & try to enjoy life. I don't know. It's a tough scenario. 

It's super exiting finding out how others think about this stuff. Its not a conversation that comes up in social situations so I've never had it before.

 

I'm gonna stew a bit on this and get back to you.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 7/29/2019 at 12:21 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

A Surfeit of Rulers, Fire & Blood

Can we see any sign of love or compassion or pity in the hearts of Ramsay or Euron? 

George already said, people have more in common in comparison to their differences.  The point may be this.  Even the villains are humans and they are not always the source of the problem.  The Starks have caused more damage to Westeros compared to the Freys.  Yet, at first glance, they appear to be the good people.  It's time to stop sorting people into good and bad.  The differences are small.  It was wrong for Catelyn to spark war over Bran even though Jaime deserved to be jailed for what he did.  There is crude justice in Ice and Fire.  Jaime lost his hand even though a direct correlation doesn't exists with the maiming of Bran.  Both these guys will have to reinvent themselves after the loss of limbs.  Jon Snow betrayed the Night's Watch and wrongfully executed a sworn brother.  He in turn got executed by the sworn brothers.  Jorah sold poachers to the slavers.  Look what happened to him: he got sold into slavery.  Tyrion killed his father in a fit of emotions and somebody might do the same to him in the future.  Sansa went behind her father's back, chose to keep the truth about Micah.  Somebody might do the same to Sansa.  Myranda Royce is likely.  

Love can be destructive too.  Growing love in the hearts of Euron might not lead to anything good.  Sansa loved Joffrey and it didn't create anything good.  Just saying.  S

[John Suburbs]

On 8/2/2019 at 3:11 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Is this what you are arguing? Cuz id disagree, as would her staff who told her not to fight Yunaki or Merreen, as it has nothing to do with the IT

Slaughtered thousands (is that the number) of great masters. Good riddance. Just because they didn't do Dany harm doesn't mean theyre not harmful to humanity. 

For thousands of years the evilness of Slavers Bay has been thriving while Boltons have been flaying. Its wrong and needs to stop.

And frankly, anyone whos aware of evil and is able to quell it yet doesnt, is nothing but an accessory

There naturally living a better life because its theirs. Not the great masters

She slaughtered hundreds of great or wise or whatever masters, and then thousands of wives, children, freedmen and others who were merely living their lives in the culture they were born into. And in the end she made life worse for all the survivors, including the freed slaves. So who has been more harmful to humanity here?

This is one of the main themes in Dany's arc, epitomized by the former slave who once held a position of high honor in his master's house as a teacher and a healer but who now finds himself with no position, living in squalor and fearing for his life in an increasingly lawless city.

So just like Tywin, Dany has good intentions in her own mind, but her actions unleashed the four evils of war, famine, disease and death. Many people in the story already consider her to be an evil, tyrant dragon queen. Let's see how the story plays out to see if she can redeem herself.

[John Suburbs]

On 8/2/2019 at 3:30 PM, Sigella said:

1 daughters to some suspected son of the harpy gets questioned sharply

2 wine seller gets dragged behind the silver to death after trying to murder her

3 child-crucifiers gets crucified

I only count 1 since the rest are severe punishments for legit crimes, so not innocents. If you say "victim blaming" I swear I will jump off a cliff.

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Some of us still nurses a small hope that things won't be like the abomination but that is another discussion for another part of the forum.

Anyway, that gives Dany one evil-point for every daughter (we don't know how many there were, do we?) putting her well below fellow evil-doers like Cersei, Victarion and Walder Frey. Also we don't know if sharply means to the death, so it could be the daughters didn't die making the evil points worth less than others.

I think Drogo or the businessmen of Slavers Bay easily could be en par with Tywin though  

With this standard, you side with @Lyanna<3Rhaegar that just because Tywin didn't kill anyone personally, then he is less evil than those who did so under his orders.

Dany made decisions and issued the orders that led directly to the deaths of thousands of people (not all of them slavers) who were merely living the lives they were born into, and even led those she was rescuing into war, famine, disease and death. She has far more blood on her hands than the few you mentioned -- second only to Tywin in my reckoning.

 

[Sigella]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

With this standard, you side with @Lyanna<3Rhaegar that just because Tywin didn't kill anyone personally, then he is less evil than those who did so under his orders.

Dany made decisions and issued the orders that led directly to the deaths of thousands of people (not all of them slavers) who were merely living the lives they were born into, and even led those she was rescuing into war, famine, disease and death. She has far more blood on her hands than the few you mentioned -- second only to Tywin in my reckoning.

 

No. Tywin is responsible for war crimes in the Riverlands, I also said that I don't count wars, only what would be war crimes.

Famine is only a legit evil point if you've stolen the peoples food, same with diseases. People following Dany and dying because of it isn't on her i my mind.

Same with punishments for crimes, I''ve got no problem at all with rapers getting gelded or crucifiers of kids getting crucified themselves.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

With this standard, you side with @Lyanna<3Rhaegar that just because Tywin didn't kill anyone personally, then he is less evil than those who did so under his orders.

Dany made decisions and issued the orders that led directly to the deaths of thousands of people (not all of them slavers) who were merely living the lives they were born into, and even led those she was rescuing into war, famine, disease and death. She has far more blood on her hands than the few you mentioned -- second only to Tywin in my reckoning.

 

Just to be clear I don't think the person giving the order holds no blame or is necessarily a good person but "I did it under orders" is no excuse to me. If you carry out some vile deed, whether you were told to or not, you are more evil than a person who has not carried out said vile deed, whether they are the ones that told you to or not. Tywin is no angel but he would not be capable of the things Gregor does - that's why he has Gregor - because Gregor is more evil than him & is happy to bring him self to do the things Tywin does not. 

[Hugorfonics]

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

She slaughtered hundreds of great or wise or whatever masters, and then thousands of wives, children, freedmen and others who were merely living their lives in the culture they were born into.

She did not slay thousands of wives and children. Not sure where you got that from. Sack of Merreen? Because in Yunkai and Aspator added up the total death count for the wives and children was 0. In fact hardly anybody died at Yunkai.

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

. And in the end she made life worse for all the survivors, including the freed slaves. So who has been more harmful to humanity here?

The Slavers, dude. Lol. 

Life is better now.  Like, fundamentally incomparable, she has given them their freedom. 

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This is one of the main themes in Dany's arc, epitomized by the former slave who once held a position of high honor in his master's house as a teacher and a healer but who now finds himself with no position, living in squalor and fearing for his life in an increasingly lawless city.

Thats a story by Daxos, it may be true. Though it may not. Either way, Dany has allowed her subjects to give themselves back into slavery.

Clearly not many took the deal as Merreen is still filled with the mouths and stomachs of freedmen.

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So just like Tywin, Dany has good intentions in her own mind, 

Wait, what? 

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

, Dany has good intentions in her own mind, but her actions unleashed the four evils of war, famine, disease and death.

She did not unleash the disease, and it was the slavers who brought upon the famine. As for this war and death, sometimes war is the answer, like in the face of evil.

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Many people in the story already consider her to be an evil, tyrant dragon queen. 

Only the slavers from Yunkai and Volantis think that. Most people consider her Mysha. (Or azor ahai reborn)

9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Let's see how the story plays out to see if she can redeem herself.

Almost all characters in asoiaf are in some desperate need of redemption, somehow Daenerys is not on that list

[Targaryen Restoration]

On 8/2/2019 at 5:24 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Why do you think Tywin raped Shae? I don't remember that.

You're right he probably wouldn't have the oppurtunity to do it on the scale he did because without Tywin he wouldn't have had an army behind him. But he undoubtedly would find someone to murder, maim, & inflict pain upon. 

I see what you are saying. I guess for my purposes this falls into "because he wants to". He definitely utilizes it to his advantage. I only used the term to differentiate from those who were given orders to do something vs those who would not. Idk how bravely Ramsay has played the game though. 

I mean I guess we don't know what is in Ramsay's heart but he appears to enjoy it so I'm just basing my assumption off of the only info we have. 

No need to be sorry! Just a friendly discussion here

Sure, I can understand that & definitely see where you are coming from. "Evil" to me is what is inside said person. While we don't get to see 'inside' of Tywin or Ramsay I'm basing my assumption on what we see of their actions. IMO someone who has not committed any atrocity could potentially be more evil than someone who has. For example: let's say we have a man - let's call him Bob. Bob, in his heart, is a good man. He loves his children & wife. He doesn't find joy in harming anyone or anything. One day he comes home early from work to find his wife & another man in bed together. Bob snaps & shoots both of them killing them both. We have a second man. Let's call him Dave. Dave lusts after children, does not have the capability to love anyone or anything. He has a craving to inflict pain, humiliation, indignation, and any other form of suffering he can think of on another human being. He has not, as of yet, acted on these urges. 

In this scenario Dave is the more evil of the two, to me. Bob isn't great, he killed two people. But Bob snapped & lost control of himself. He feels remorse & wishes he wouldn't have done it. Dave is happy to do these things, he wants to them & if he did he would not feel any remorse. 

Agreed. It's hard to say sometimes who is 'more evil' or when choosing between 2 absolutely atrocious acts, which is worse. It all boils down to how you feel about it I suppose. 

This topic makes me wonder: would I rather be tortured & maimed but left alive, or given a clean, quick death. My initial instinct is to say the clean, quick death but thinking further I'm not so sure. There would be less suffering with death but I would miss out on so much. My kids growing up, my grand kids growing up. Where while the torture may change me beyond repair I would still be around to work on it & try to enjoy life. I don't know. It's a tough scenario. 

No.  Thoughts and fantasies not carried out are not punishable.  Actions are punishable.  It's not immoral to have bad thoughts as long as they remain just that, thoughts.  No harm, no crime.  Arya has a To-Kill List and that is sickening.  She's a nut case.  But if all she did is to keep that list but never act on it or never got to act on it, no, it's not evil.  It became evil when she actually started carrying through with the list.  She became evil the moment she took out one person on that list.  I will say she crossed to evil when she started to take action in order to prepare for that list.  The murder of the insurance underwriter.  

Let's examine your drama.  Dave is not evil because he has done no harm.  Bob is the evil of the two.  Snapping and losing temper is not an excuse.  It doesn't take away his guilt.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

No.  Thoughts and fantasies not carried out are not punishable.  Actions are punishable.  It's not immoral to have bad thoughts as long as they remain just that, thoughts.  No harm, no crime.  Arya has a To-Kill List and that is sickening.  She's a nut case.  But if all she did is to keep that list but never act on it or never got to act on it, no, it's not evil.  It became evil when she actually started carrying through with the list.  She became evil the moment she took out one person on that list.  I will say she crossed to evil when she started to take action in order to prepare for that list.  The murder of the insurance underwriter.  

Well to begin with I never said thoughts were punishable so that doesn't really pertain to my argument. 

There are plenty who would argue that it most definitely is evil to have a 'kill list' whether or not it is acted upon. 

2 hours ago, Targaryen Restoration said:

Let's examine your drama.  Dave is not evil because he has done no harm.  Bob is the evil of the two.  Snapping and losing temper is not an excuse.  It doesn't take away his guilt.  

So, if I'm understanding your argument you are saying Arya wasn't evil prior to the insurance man incident but was evil directly upon the incident? That doesn't make much sense does it? People don't "turn" evil in a few seconds or minutes. Typically they start out different & it grows from there until it is finally acted upon. 

I never said losing control & snapping was an excuse or that it takes away his guilt. Are we arguing who should be punished or who is evil? You appear to be arguing something I'm not in disagreement with. 

Dave's evilness is not negated because he has caused no harm. Was Jeffrey Dahmer not evil until he killed someone? That's ridiculous. Jeffrey Dahmer & Dave are always going to be who they are whether they acted out their fantasies or not. People don't just wake up evil one day. It's always there, it just takes a while to show it's ugly face sometimes. 

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, Sigella said:

No. Tywin is responsible for war crimes in the Riverlands, I also said that I don't count wars, only what would be war crimes.

Famine is only a legit evil point if you've stolen the peoples food, same with diseases. People following Dany and dying because of it isn't on her i my mind.

Same with punishments for crimes, I''ve got no problem at all with rapers getting gelded or crucifiers of kids getting crucified themselves.

Quote

"Unsullied!" Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. "Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see."

So right off the bat, Dany is ordering the death of every freeborn man in Astapor above the age of twelve, regardless of whether they are slaves or not. Then she orders all slaves released, not just the Unsullied who follow orders to the word, who then proceed to revolt against their masters. It is inconceivable, therefore, that the killings were restricted to just the slave masters and not their wives, daughters, infant children and virtually every free person in the city, and probably even a fair number of house slaves as well. All of this was done on Dany's orders. Then the same thing happened in Merreen, on her orders.

As a direct result of these orders, the four evils of war, famine, disease and death were unleashed upon the land.

So how can anyone possibly claim that Tywin actions are war crimes, but Dany's are not? They are both ordering the deaths of thousands of people who have not done anyone harm -- they were just living their lives as their people have for generations.

[John Suburbs]

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Just to be clear I don't think the person giving the order holds no blame or is necessarily a good person but "I did it under orders" is no excuse to me. If you carry out some vile deed, whether you were told to or not, you are more evil than a person who has not carried out said vile deed, whether they are the ones that told you to or not. Tywin is no angel but he would not be capable of the things Gregor does - that's why he has Gregor - because Gregor is more evil than him & is happy to bring him self to do the things Tywin does not. 

I didn't say you believed that, but from your earlier comments I take your meaning to be that the person who gives the order is less evil than the person who does the deed. But Gregor would not have done many of the things he has done if not ordered to by Tywin. In my book, that makes Tywin the greater evil because his orders are resulting in far more death and misery than Gregor could do in a lifetime.

Just because you don't see these horrific events on the page doesn't make them any less evil. Imagine all of the women and girls, thousands of them, who were raped and murdered during the Sack of King's Landing. Imagine the anguish of the parents who watched as their children were cut in half before their eyes. Each and every one of these acts was done by an individual, but Tywin is responsible for all of them, tens upon hundreds upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands of brutal rapes and murders, all because of one man.

Think of it this way: if you took away Gregor, took away Lorch, took away all of the soldiers who committed atrocities in Tywin's name, the result would still be the same because there are always plenty of men to replace them. If you took away Tywin and replaced him with a less ruthless lord like Tytos or Ned, none of this evil would have taken place at all.

[Sigella]

23 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

So right off the bat, Dany is ordering the death of every freeborn man in Astapor above the age of twelve, regardless of whether they are slaves or not. Then she orders all slaves released, not just the Unsullied who follow orders to the word, who then proceed to revolt against their masters. It is inconceivable, therefore, that the killings were restricted to just the slave masters and not their wives, daughters, infant children and virtually every free person in the city, and probably even a fair number of house slaves as well. All of this was done on Dany's orders. Then the same thing happened in Merreen, on her orders.

As a direct result of these orders, the four evils of war, famine, disease and death were unleashed upon the land.

So how can anyone possibly claim that Tywin actions are war crimes, but Dany's are not? They are both ordering the deaths of thousands of people who have not done anyone harm -- they were just living their lives as their people have for generations.

Again not a war crime and not comparable to torturing people to death. Not many sackings follows those kinds of orders anyway, so its a better invasion than most to me, especially as it is at least in part a means to end the despicable ghiscari way of work.

Its a harsh punishment but no torture-murder.

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

She did not slay thousands of wives and children. Not sure where you got that from. Sack of Merreen? Because in Yunkai and Aspator added up the total death count for the wives and children was 0. In fact hardly anybody died at Yunkai.

The Slavers, dude. Lol. 

Life is better now.  Like, fundamentally incomparable, she has given them their freedom. 

Thats a story by Daxos, it may be true. Though it may not. Either way, Dany has allowed her subjects to give themselves back into slavery.

Clearly not many took the deal as Merreen is still filled with the mouths and stomachs of freedmen.

Wait, what? 

She did not unleash the disease, and it was the slavers who brought upon the famine. As for this war and death, sometimes war is the answer, like in the face of evil.

Only the slavers from Yunkai and Volantis think that. Most people consider her Mysha. (Or azor ahai reborn)

Almost all characters in asoiaf are in some desperate need of redemption, somehow Daenerys is not on that list

She cast off the shackles of slaves in Astapor and Meereen and launched their revolts. How on earth do you imagine that no women or children were killed? 

Life is better? They are starving both within and without the walls of Meereen, with armies closing in on them and the pale mare running rampant. She gave them freedom to die horrible miserable deaths. This is one of the major themes of Dany's arc.

Zaro tells a story about a once-wealthy spice merchant who is now digging ditches to water bean fields. IIRC, the slave spoke to Dany directly, or maybe I'm getting my books and shows mixed up again. Either way, the story is valid. Many slaves were perfectly happy with their positions, so Dany has done nothing but bring an end to their comfortable lives and cast them into desperate poverty.

Tywin does not wake up each morning and ask himself what evil things he can do that day because he is such an evil man. Tywin's intentions are pure in his own mind: he wants to bring law, order and prosperity back to the kingdom; he wants to preserve the honor and enhance the fortunes of House Lannister, he wants to destroy the rebels who would deprive the rightful king of his crown . . . Sometimes war is the answer to the evils of rebellion.

There was no famine and little disease in the region until Dany showed up. Her actions have resulted in a humanitarian crisis of the first order.

Only the people of the north and riverlands think Tywin is a tyrant. The people of Lannisport think he is a hero and will likely build a statue of him. They also think Robb is an evil tyrant due to all the pillaging and plundering he did in the westerlands.

Dany is in serious need of redemption. She has brought more death and misery to innocent people than virtually everyone on the planet, save Tywin Lannister.

[John Suburbs]

6 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Again not a war crime and not comparable to torturing people to death. Not many sackings follows those kinds of orders anyway, so its a better invasion than most to me, especially as it is at least in part a means to end the despicable ghiscari way of work.

Its a harsh punishment but no torture-murder.

Well, Tywin only ordered a few murders as well, and no tortures as far as I can tell. If Dany is not responsible for the sacks of Astapor and Meereen, then Tywin is not responsible for the sack of King's Landing, nor is he responsible for what Gregor and his men got up to in the riverlands, nor is he responsible for what the Freys did at the Red Wedding. These were all done as means to end the despicable work of mad kings and usurpers to his grandson's rightful crown.

Why does Dany get a pass for everything that is done in her name, but Tywin does not?

 

[Starkz]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, Tywin only ordered a few murders as well, and no tortures as far as I can tell. If Dany is not responsible for the sacks of Astapor and Meereen, then Tywin is not responsible for the sack of King's Landing, nor is he responsible for what Gregor and his men got up to in the riverlands, nor is he responsible for what the Freys did at the Red Wedding. These were all done as means to end the despicable work of mad kings and usurpers to his grandson's rightful crown.

Why does Dany get a pass for everything that is done in her name, but Tywin does not?

 

Totally agree. Even without GRRM comments about Daenerys, it’s obvious to the avid reader that she isn’t a good person or someone you should root for. @Sigella is just ignoring and making excuses for Daenerys. She tortures, murders and kills people in greater numbers and efficiency than Tywin ever could and her dragons aren’t even in full play yet. Tens of thousands have died because of her and cities have been decimated beyond repair. When Dany finally comes to Westeros it will be the end of her. Come the end of the story everyone will realize the type of person Dany is.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

I didn't say you believed that, but from your earlier comments I take your meaning to be that the person who gives the order is less evil than the person who does the deed. But Gregor would not have done many of the things he has done if not ordered to by Tywin. In my book, that makes Tywin the greater evil because his orders are resulting in far more death and misery than Gregor could do in a lifetime.

Just because you don't see these horrific events on the page doesn't make them any less evil. Imagine all of the women and girls, thousands of them, who were raped and murdered during the Sack of King's Landing. Imagine the anguish of the parents who watched as their children were cut in half before their eyes. Each and every one of these acts was done by an individual, but Tywin is responsible for all of them, tens upon hundreds upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands of brutal rapes and murders, all because of one man.

Think of it this way: if you took away Gregor, took away Lorch, took away all of the soldiers who committed atrocities in Tywin's name, the result would still be the same because there are always plenty of men to replace them. If you took away Tywin and replaced him with a less ruthless lord like Tytos or Ned, none of this evil would have taken place at all.

I understand what you are saying but Tywin doesn't order Gregor to do every nasty detail. He more or less just unleashes him because he knows what he will do. Tywin says himself he didn't order Gregor to rape Elia but he did anyway. You can't just take these people away & expect it all would have happened the same because Tywin was still involved. If Tywin had no one available to do the dirty deeds they wouldn't have gotten done - on the other hand if Gregor was not receiving orders from Tywin he would still be committing evil deeds. 

You can't really believe that, Gregor, under Ned would have been a good person? 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

Again not a war crime and not comparable to torturing people to death. Not many sackings follows those kinds of orders anyway, so its a better invasion than most to me, especially as it is at least in part a means to end the despicable ghiscari way of work.

Its a harsh punishment but no torture-murder.

She also didn't order the murder of everyone above the age of 12 whether they were slaves or not. She ordered the killing of the SLAVERS. I'm with you. No torture, murder, & not a war crime. A harsh punishment for some harsh people. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 minutes ago, Starkz said:

Totally agree. Even without GRRM comments about Daenerys, it’s obvious to the avid reader that she isn’t a good person or someone you should root for. @Sigella is just ignoring and making excuses for Daenerys. She tortures, murders and kills people in greater numbers and efficiency than Tywin ever could and her dragons aren’t even in full play yet. Come the end of the story everyone will realize the type of person Dany is.

I disagree & I think @John Suburbs is exaggerating quite a bit about the effects of Dany's breaking of chains. Daenerys is harsh but shows mercy. She is trying to fix a very horrible place & naturally there are consequences but do you really think Daenerys ordering the slavers to be killed is along the same lines as peasants getting "tickled" or Tysha being gang raped? 

[Starkz]

6 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree & I think @John Suburbs is exaggerating quite a bit about the effects of Dany's breaking of chains. Daenerys is harsh but shows mercy. She is trying to fix a very horrible place & naturally there are consequences but do you really think Daenerys ordering the slavers to be killed is along the same lines as peasants getting "tickled" or Tysha being gang raped? 

I think torturing children in front of their fathers is one of the worse things I’ve read that has happened in the books and is en-par with the things Ramsay does. I think conquering a city and leaving it behind with incapable people and then not coming to their aid letting them all die starting the bloody flux which will bring her death count into the hundreds of thousands before even setting foot in Westeros is along the same lines as the worst of the worse.

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, Tywin only ordered a few murders as well, and no tortures as far as I can tell. If Dany is not responsible for the sacks of Astapor and Meereen, then Tywin is not responsible for the sack of King's Landing, nor is he responsible for what Gregor and his men got up to in the riverlands, nor is he responsible for what the Freys did at the Red Wedding. These were all done as means to end the despicable work of mad kings and usurpers to his grandson's rightful crown.

Why does Dany get a pass for everything that is done in her name, but Tywin does not?

 

I'd agree if Dany had every suspected Son of the Harpy questioned sharply, if she allowed Skahaz to torture-murder her hostages or followed any of Daario's advice on ruling. But she hasn't, so I won't.

 

You seem keen on overlooking what I've said so I'll say it again: I don't count war or battlefields only what would be war crimes. So I'm not chiding Tywin for going to war, it's setting Gregor, the Tickler and Brave Companions loose on civilians I have a problem with. I.e torture-murder.