Ramsay and Euron

[Sigella]

6 minutes ago, Starkz said:

I think torturing children in front of their fathers is one of the worse things I’ve read that has happened in the books and is en-par with the things Ramsay does. I think conquering a city and leaving it behind with incapable people and then not coming to their aid letting them all die starting the bloody flux which will bring her death count into the hundreds of thousands before even setting foot in Westeros is along the same lines as the worst of the worse.

Since when does diseases become Dany's fault?  

[Starkz]

3 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Since when does diseases become Dany's fault?  

War leads to disease. The bloody flux was a direct result of Dany’s actions and it’s foolish to think it’s not connected to her.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

43 minutes ago, Starkz said:

I think torturing children in front of their fathers is one of the worse things I’ve read that has happened in the books and is en-par with the things Ramsay does. I think conquering a city and leaving it behind with incapable people and then not coming to their aid letting them all die starting the bloody flux which will bring her death count into the hundreds of thousands before even setting foot in Westeros is along the same lines as the worst of the worse.

Show me where it explicitly stated children were tortured in front of their fathers. 

She can't be held responsible for the bloody flux!! How can that be her fault?!

[Starkz]

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Show me where it explicitly stated children were tortured in front of their fathers. 

She can't be held responsible for the bloody flux!! How can that be her fault?!

The Wineseller business man and his daughters were tortured for information Daenerys herself notes that they likely do not have. The first reports of the bloody flux were after Dany left Astapor and it began to spread immediately after her host was there. It’s no coincidence. If I have to spell it out for you, following the massacre at Astapor combined with tens of thousands of freed slaves on the move and mingling, this is where it began as a direct result of yours truly, Daenerys. The bloody flux didn’t just come out of no where. Barristan himself notes of how it is the greatest bane to every army. All of these things combined all point back to the beginning which is Daenerys.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, Starkz said:

The Wineseller business man and his daughters were tortured for information Daenerys herself notes that they likely do not have. The first reports of the bloody flux were after Dany left Astapor and it began to spread immediately after her host was there. It’s no coincidence. If I have to spell it out for you, following the massacre at Astapor combined with tens of thousands of freed slaves on the move and mingling, this is where it began as a direct result of yours truly, Daenerys. The bloody flux didn’t just come out of no where. Barristan himself notes of how it is the greatest bane to every army. All of these things combined all point back to the beginning which is Daenerys.

It's been a while since I've read the books so are you talking about the people Daenerys agrees to "question sharply"? Because that's hardly proof children were tortured. 

Let me spell it out for you: no matter how many times you say it or how bad you want it to be true, Daenerys cannot be held responsible for a disease that killed people. This is pretty basic common sense but since you are not only not grasping it but decided to take it a step further and imply you have to take it slow for me since I just can't seem to get it let me be more explicit: Unless Daenerys willingly & knowingly spread a communicable disease on purpose, she cannot be at fault for a disease that comes to a city that may or may not arrived with her host ESPECIALLY when she never had said disease. This is absolutely ridiculous. If one child gives another a cold at school is the first child an evil little thing to be blamed for the seconds cold? That's the equivalent of what you are saying. 

[Hugorfonics]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

She cast off the shackles of slaves in Astapor and Meereen and launched their revolts. How on earth do you imagine that no women or children were killed? 

So, She, did not slaughter thousands of women and children. 

Some were killed during the battle until Dany gained full control of the city. I doubt the amount of women and children casualty was in the thousands though as we'd have probably heard about that specifically

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Life is better?

Significantly

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

They are starving both within and without the walls of Meereen, with armies closing in on them and the pale mare running rampant. She gave them freedom to die horrible miserable deaths. This is one of the major themes of Dany's arc.

No one is forcing the freedmen to follow Dany. In fact shed prefer if they didnt. However if the freedmen leave Danys jurisdiction they would no longer be free, so they dont. (Tyrion reflected that theres always a choice between bondage and freedom, its just itd be free of life, perhaps the freedmen are now rationally choosing that choice) When the freedmen started to get murdered Dany starting policing, when they got sick she did her best to combat the disease. Saving people, that is the major theme in Danys arc.

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Zaro tells a story about a once-wealthy spice merchant who is now digging ditches to water bean fields. IIRC, the slave spoke to Dany directly, or maybe I'm getting my books and shows mixed up again. Either way, the story is valid. Many slaves were perfectly happy with their positions, so Dany has done nothing but bring an end to their comfortable lives and cast them into desperate poverty.

(Its Xaro, with an x. And i don't think he ever met Dany (though Im not even convinced hes real lol))

Dude. No slave is perfectly happy with their position. I mean... Life is sacred, and its yours. Some perhaps are brainwashed like fucking Theon, but theyre far from happy.  Furthermore a major theme in asoiaf is thinking of your kids and their children. Meanwhile the child of a slave is a slave. I stress, no slave is happy. 

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Tywin does not wake up each morning and ask himself what evil things he can do that day because he is such an evil man. 

No one does

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

. Tywin's intentions are pure in his own mind: 

No theyre not. Lets take the rape of Ellia as our example. 

When questioned by his child he expresses no remorse nor guilt for the crime. "The blood was in him" I think was the phrase. Very dismissive and far from self incriminating. 

When promised to give Dorne the head of Gregor, Tywin declined. The reason behind, was all the Western knights and warriors that the Hand has at disposal, are "lesser beasts"

Tywin was fully aware that hes not pure of heart.

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

, he wants to destroy the rebels who would deprive the rightful king of his crown . . . Sometimes war is the answer to the evils of rebellion.

... Hes not the rightful king.

And rebellion isnt coherently evil man. Slavery and Flaying are.

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

There was no famine and little disease in the region until Dany showed up. Her actions have resulted in a humanitarian crisis of the first order.

Because her enemies burnt all the land surrounding Meereen and are attempting to put her population into bondage.

I don't understand how you can blame Dany when these are directly caused by the slavers. I mean, theyre catapulting plagued corpses into the city! Lol

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Only the people of the north and riverlands think Tywin is a tyrant. The people of Lannisport think he is a hero and will likely build a statue of him. They also think Robb is an evil tyrant due to all the pillaging and plundering he did in the westerlands.

No. Ask the Dornish how they feel about Tywin. Or that western lord who didnt pay his taxes or some shit, so Tywin got some singer to play the rains of castamere in his hall, lol guess who paid his taxes. Not even his sister liked him.

Robb didnt pillage or plunder the West. He took the Crag. What is he going to plunder his wife?

6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Dany is in serious need of redemption. She has brought more death and misery to innocent people than virtually everyone on the planet, save Tywin Lannister.

Oh, you wanna play that game? Sansa Stark. My girls carbon footprint is long. Ned, Robert, Joffrey, Lysa all fell to the existence of Sansa. Not to mention Robbs only obtainable goal in his war, or the upcoming war of 3 queens...

[Sigella]

19 hours ago, Starkz said:

War leads to disease. The bloody flux was a direct result of Dany’s actions and it’s foolish to think it’s not connected to her.

I don't hold people responsible for butterfly effects from their actions because it would be silly.

1 Dany frees the slaves

2 A big bunch starts to follow after her to Mereen

3 They set up camp outside with bad sanitary conditions

4 They get diseases

It's totally unreasonable laying blame for something that wasn't her choice. If we start blaming people for stuff 4 causality joints away then Sansa killed Ned, Walder Frey is to blame for hangings of his offspring, Rob is to blame for the Red Wedding, Arya for the deaths of Mycah and Syrio Forel... I could go on because it's aSoIaF down the rabbit hole and read with funny goggles.

 

edit: A direct result is something that happens at the second joint - as a direct result of no. 1. 

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Starkz said:

Totally agree. Even without GRRM comments about Daenerys, it’s obvious to the avid reader that she isn’t a good person or someone you should root for. @Sigella is just ignoring and making excuses for Daenerys. She tortures, murders and kills people in greater numbers and efficiency than Tywin ever could and her dragons aren’t even in full play yet. Tens of thousands have died because of her and cities have been decimated beyond repair. When Dany finally comes to Westeros it will be the end of her. Come the end of the story everyone will realize the type of person Dany is.

Lol, thanks for that. Not to be contrarian, though, I don't think Dany is all that bad. I don't think she has killed as many innocents as Tywin yet (although she has killed far more than he did at her age), and we can tell that her heart is in a good place, which I don't think we can say for Tywin.

That's why I think the jury is still out for Dany. She may become the most ruthless tyrant the world has ever seen, or she might find a way to achieve her goals without committing any more crimes against humanity. We'll have to see what happens.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I understand what you are saying but Tywin doesn't order Gregor to do every nasty detail. He more or less just unleashes him because he knows what he will do. Tywin says himself he didn't order Gregor to rape Elia but he did anyway. You can't just take these people away & expect it all would have happened the same because Tywin was still involved. If Tywin had no one available to do the dirty deeds they wouldn't have gotten done - on the other hand if Gregor was not receiving orders from Tywin he would still be committing evil deeds. 

You can't really believe that, Gregor, under Ned would have been a good person? 

 

No, of course not. But if you removed Gregor from the scene, then the relative handful of rapes and murders he committed would not have happened. If you removed Tywin, then the extermination of the Reynes and Castemeres would not have happened, the thousands of people killed in the sack of King's Landing would not have happened, the death and destruction in the riverlands would not have happened. All of this stemmed from the actions of one man. He literally has the most blood on his hands than any other player.

So if you want to gauge evil by the brutality that one individual inflicts upon another, then sure, Gregor is high on the list. I measure evil by the scale of brutality inflicted upon all of humanity, and by that measure Tywin Lannister is far and away more evil than anyone else in the story -- with maybe the possible exception of Kraznys.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I disagree & I think @John Suburbs is exaggerating quite a bit about the effects of Dany's breaking of chains. Daenerys is harsh but shows mercy. She is trying to fix a very horrible place & naturally there are consequences but do you really think Daenerys ordering the slavers to be killed is along the same lines as peasants getting "tickled" or Tysha being gang raped? 

It's not just the slavers being killed, though. It's thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of innocents -- wives, children, free men -- getting caught up in this, not to mention the thousands of her followers who are now starving to death and dying of the pale mare inside and outside of Meereen.

This is a far worse situation than existed at King's Landing in the lead up to the Battle on the Blackwater, and it was Tywin Lannister who alleviated that situation by brokering peace with the Tyrells and reopening the Rose Road. What has Dany done to fix the problems in Meereen? She flew off on Drogo's back leaving her followers to the tender mercy of the very same slavers that she was supposedly rescuing them from.

And as we've seen, Dany is not above ordering small folk to be tickled as well.

Tywin is trying to fix a horrible unjust place as well, where sons of high lords can be kidnapped at will on trumped up charges, where greedy rebels seek to usurp the crown of their rightful king, where mad kings and their equally mad sons disorder and economic chaos to a land he tried so hard to lift up. Everybody has their excuses for committing evil, violent acts, and it invariably boils down to "this evil is necessary for the greater good that will come later."

So please don't get the idea that I am anti-Dany. My only goal is to apply the same standards when judging Dany's, Tywin's and other people's actions. Both Dany and Tywin have killed thousands of innocents in their quest to achieve their goals, both have unleashed famine and disease on those who were not directly affected by their violence, both are striving to preserve and enhance their own power in the Game of Thrones. So why do people condemn Tywin but then give Dany a pass when she does the exact same thing?

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Sigella said:

I'd agree if Dany had every suspected Son of the Harpy questioned sharply, if she allowed Skahaz to torture-murder her hostages or followed any of Daario's advice on ruling. But she hasn't, so I won't.

 

You seem keen on overlooking what I've said so I'll say it again: I don't count war or battlefields only what would be war crimes. So I'm not chiding Tywin for going to war, it's setting Gregor, the Tickler and Brave Companions loose on civilians I have a problem with. I.e torture-murder.

Unleashing an army of slaves to run riot through cities to slay every tokar-wearing resident above the age of 12, regardless of whether they were actual slavers or not? That doesn't qualify as a war crime to you? The only difference between Dany's assault on Astapor and Tywin's on the riverlands is we see first-hand what Gregor and Co. were up to. But just because we readers did not get an eyewitness account of what happened in Astapor or Meereen doesn't make it any less brutal, nor should it excuse the person who ordered it from bearing responsibility for the evil that she created.

[John Suburbs]

18 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

So, She, did not slaughter thousands of women and children. 

Some were killed during the battle until Dany gained full control of the city. I doubt the amount of women and children casualty was in the thousands though as we'd have probably heard about that specifically

Significantly

No one is forcing the freedmen to follow Dany. In fact shed prefer if they didnt. However if the freedmen leave Danys jurisdiction they would no longer be free, so they dont. (Tyrion reflected that theres always a choice between bondage and freedom, its just itd be free of life, perhaps the freedmen are now rationally choosing that choice) When the freedmen started to get murdered Dany starting policing, when they got sick she did her best to combat the disease. Saving people, that is the major theme in Danys arc.

(Its Xaro, with an x. And i don't think he ever met Dany (though Im not even convinced hes real lol))

Dude. No slave is perfectly happy with their position. I mean... Life is sacred, and its yours. Some perhaps are brainwashed like fucking Theon, but theyre far from happy.  Furthermore a major theme in asoiaf is thinking of your kids and their children. Meanwhile the child of a slave is a slave. I stress, no slave is happy. 

No one does

No theyre not. Lets take the rape of Ellia as our example. 

When questioned by his child he expresses no remorse nor guilt for the crime. "The blood was in him" I think was the phrase. Very dismissive and far from self incriminating. 

When promised to give Dorne the head of Gregor, Tywin declined. The reason behind, was all the Western knights and warriors that the Hand has at disposal, are "lesser beasts"

Tywin was fully aware that hes not pure of heart.

... Hes not the rightful king.

And rebellion isnt coherently evil man. Slavery and Flaying are.

Because her enemies burnt all the land surrounding Meereen and are attempting to put her population into bondage.

I don't understand how you can blame Dany when these are directly caused by the slavers. I mean, theyre catapulting plagued corpses into the city! Lol

No. Ask the Dornish how they feel about Tywin. Or that western lord who didnt pay his taxes or some shit, so Tywin got some singer to play the rains of castamere in his hall, lol guess who paid his taxes. Not even his sister liked him.

Robb didnt pillage or plunder the West. He took the Crag. What is he going to plunder his wife?

Oh, you wanna play that game? Sansa Stark. My girls carbon footprint is long. Ned, Robert, Joffrey, Lysa all fell to the existence of Sansa. Not to mention Robbs only obtainable goal in his war, or the upcoming war of 3 queens...

Hogwash, Astapor was sacked and burned on Dany's orders. To think that no women and children were killed simply because Dany ordered the Unsullied not to do so is beyond naïve. Then she compounded this act of evil by abandoning the city to pursue her next conquest, and the result was another sacking by the Yunkai, whom she allowed to remain in power because it did not suit her needs to remove these slavers as well. So through both action and inaction, Dany unleashed the evil that resulted in tens of thousands of innocent deaths.

So once again, we have the hypocrisy that lays all the blame for what happened in Westeros in Tywin's lap, but Dany gets a pass for what happened in Slavers Bay.

Lol, so they had the freedom to follow Dany, and starve and die wretched deaths, the freedom to stay where they were, and be slaughtered like goats, or the freedom to go somewhere else, and either starve or be re-enslaved. The life of a slave is no picnic, but it is only marginally worse than the life of a commoner in Westeros, who could be raped, killed or starved at the whims of their lords. So, yes, I would argue that living and working as a slave, getting food, shelter, a place to sleep, and protection, is far better than following some mad queen on a lustful journey to power where you end up shitting yourself to death while she basks in the most luxurious pyramid of the city she just sacked.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Hugo, but plenty of slaves are perfectly happy. Both in-story and in real life, slaves attained positions of high honor and authority as teachers, scribes, book-keepers, not to mention carpenters, tanners, teamsters and even overseers of other slaves. The slave in Volantis whose only job was to cart people around with his little elephant didn't seem all that miserable to me. But I imagine he would be if he got a chance to chuck that life only to find himself dying of the bloody flux a few months later.

Tywin did not order the rape of Elia. He did order the murder of the children, but he did not do that just for kicks. In his mind, it was necessary to prove his loyalty to the new king and to prevent a counter-rebellion from brewing later. In other words, a necessary evil in order to achieve a greater good. This is the exact excuse you use for Dany, why does Tywin not deserve the same?

In Tywin's mind, Joffrey is the rightful and lawful king. He is attempting to restore order to the realm and bring justice to criminals. That's his goal, and it is just as lofty and noble as Dany's.

None of this would be happening if Dany hadn't marched into their lands and attempted to destroy the culture that has existed relatively peacefully for thousands of years. All of the violence in the area, both the direct violence that Dany orders and the inevitable reaction from people whose ways of life are being threatened, are a direct result of Dany's decisions. She is the locus for all the war, famine, disease and death that is occurring in the region. None of this would be happening if she had simply gone back to Pentos to reconnect with Illyrio --although, in all fairness, it would be happening in Westeros.

By your logic, I could punch someone in the face and break their jaw, but they would be the evil one if they got back up and tweaked my nose.

Read the text. Robb destroyed the army at Oxcross, and then he:

•  took the city of Ashemark
• took the Crag

meanwhile, under his orders, his bannermen:

• raided up and down the coast of the Sunset Sea, like the ironmen do
• raided the hinterlands stealing livestock and other valuables that smallfolk depend upon for their very lives
• captured the gold mine's at Nunn's Deep, Castamere and Pendric Hills

Do you think that at each stop the good northmen politely asked the evil westermen to give up their belongings. Was it the westermen who were evil by defending their homes and towns from these saintly invaders? There was battle and bloodshed and probably more than a few rapes in all of this. All the while, stories are circulating about northmen turning into wolves and feasting on the bodies of the slain, Robb feeding the hearts of his victims to his wolf and all manner of other atrocities. True or not, this is what the people believe. To them, Robb is evil beyond imagination; Tywin is their hero for having gotten rid of him.

Yes, the Martells think Tywin is a tyrant too, and they hold him ultimately responsible for the deaths of their kin, not just the men who did the deeds. All of this points up the fallacy that since thousands of slaves admire Dany and call her Mysa that she is not doing any evil. Thousands of westermen admire Tywin and call him The Great Lion of the Rock. Again, why the different standards when judging Dany vs. Tywin?

Even by this reckoning, which is disengenuous at best, Sansa's death-count is a pittance compared to Dany, who at 16 has caused far more death and destruction then Tywin at that age.

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Unleashing an army of slaves to run riot through cities to slay every tokar-wearing resident above the age of 12, regardless of whether they were actual slavers or not? That doesn't qualify as a war crime to you? The only difference between Dany's assault on Astapor and Tywin's on the riverlands is we see first-hand what Gregor and Co. were up to. But just because we readers did not get an eyewitness account of what happened in Astapor or Meereen doesn't make it any less brutal, nor should it excuse the person who ordered it from bearing responsibility for the evil that she created.

It doesn't.

Keeping slaves, training slaves and turning children into Unsullied however - seems a far worse crime against humanity than the ugliness of putting an end to it to me.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

not just the slavers being killed, though. It's thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of innocents -- wives, children, free men -- getting caught up in this, not to mention the thousands of her followers who are now starving to death and dying of the pale mare inside and outside of Meereen

Again, how can Daenerys be responsible for this? This happens during war. She most certainly never ordered the slaughter of women & children & the pale mare is no fault of hers. 

 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

This is a far worse situation than existed at King's Landing in the lead up to the Battle on the Blackwater, and it was Tywin Lannister who alleviated that situation by brokering peace with the Tyrells and reopening the Rose Road. What has Dany done to fix the problems in Meereen? She flew off on Drogo's back leaving her followers to the tender mercy of the very same slavers that she was supposedly rescuing them from

No. I know that you have a very good recollection of the books so you know exactly what Daenerys has tried in terms of fixing the problems in Meereen. It's silly for me to list them. She did indeed fly away on Drogon but she hasn't been able to return because Drogon has not bent to her will. 

 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And as we've seen, Dany is not above ordering small folk to be tickled as well

Again an exaggeration. Dany agrees for them to be "questioned sharply" we don't know what exactly that consists of. 

 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Tywin is trying to fix a horrible unjust place as well, where sons of high lords can be kidnapped at will on trumped up charges, where greedy rebels seek to usurp the crown of their rightful king, where mad kings and their equally mad sons disorder and economic chaos to a land he tried so hard to lift up. Everybody has their excuses for committing evil, violent acts, and it invariably boils down to "this evil is necessary for the greater good that will come later."

Well Westeros is hardly in the state Meereen is so it's not completely comparable but I never argued Tywin didn't have good reason for some of the things he has done. I do think you are giving him quite a bit of liberties here while nit-picking every decision Daenerys has made & trying to find the 'evil' in it.

Tywin isn't interested in justice or the oppression of the small folk. He is interested in furthering his name & his house. Not necessarily a bad cause but it naturally seems more sympathetic to us when Dany is fighting for the people who can't fight for themselves. 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So please don't get the idea that I am anti-Dany. My only goal is to apply the same standards when judging Dany's, Tywin's and other people's actions. Both Dany and Tywin have killed thousands of innocents in their quest to achieve their goals, both have unleashed famine and disease on those who were not directly affected by their violence, both are striving to preserve and enhance their own power in the Game of Thrones. So why do people condemn Tywin but then give Dany a pass when she does the exact same thing?

If you recall I was defending Tywin in saying Gregor is the real evil there. The issue is you aren't applying the same standards to both. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Unleashing an army of slaves to run riot through cities to slay every tokar-wearing resident above the age of 12, regardless of whether they were actual slavers or not? That doesn't qualify as a war crime to you? The only difference between Dany's assault on Astapor and Tywin's on the riverlands is we see first-hand what Gregor and Co. were up to. But just because we readers did not get an eyewitness account of what happened in Astapor or Meereen doesn't make it any less brutal, nor should it excuse the person who ordered it from bearing responsibility for the evil that she created

The tokar wearing individuals are slavers. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

On 8/6/2019 at 1:47 PM, Starkz said:

The Wineseller business man and his daughters were tortured for information Daenerys herself notes that they likely do not have. The first reports of the bloody flux were after Dany left Astapor and it began to spread immediately after her host was there. It’s no coincidence. If I have to spell it out for you, following the massacre at Astapor combined with tens of thousands of freed slaves on the move and mingling, this is where it began as a direct result of yours truly, Daenerys. The bloody flux didn’t just come out of no where. Barristan himself notes of how it is the greatest bane to every army. All of these things combined all point back to the beginning which is Daenerys.

What is happening in Mereen pale in comparison to the devastation caused by Robert's Rebellion and the War of the Five Kings.  A whole continent suffered for years and for what, nothing of any good really.  Putting Robert's bum on the throne bankrupted the kingdom and destroyed the economy.  The war that the Starks and the Lannisters started is still unresolved and creating a continent wide misery for people who have nothing to do with either families.  And whether Stark or Lannister won is unlikely to change the land for the better.  

The Freedom War going in Mereen is for a good cause, to bring freedom to millions of slaves.  The American Civil War was bloody and it brought a lot of suffering to the slaving states.  Many of the people who suffered were non-owners of slaves.  If the Southern states had just complied and given up slaving a lot of suffering could have been avoided.  The trouble in Mereen are caused by the slave masters who refuse to give up.  The masters are trying to bring slavery back.  

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Sigella said:

It doesn't.

Keeping slaves, training slaves and turning children into Unsullied however - seems a far worse crime against humanity than the ugliness of putting an end to it to me.

You keep talking about the slavers as if they were the only ones killed in Astapor. What about all of the other men above the age of 12 wearing tokars who never kept slaves, trained slaves or turned children into Unsullied? What crime were they guilty of?

[Bronn Urgandy]

39 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

You keep talking about the slavers as if they were the only ones killed in Astapor. What about all of the other men above the age of 12 wearing tokars who never kept slaves, trained slaves or turned children into Unsullied? What crime were they guilty of?

Poor fashion sense

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Again, how can Daenerys be responsible for this? This happens during war. She most certainly never ordered the slaughter of women & children & the pale mare is no fault of hers. 

 

No. I know that you have a very good recollection of the books so you know exactly what Daenerys has tried in terms of fixing the problems in Meereen. It's silly for me to list them. She did indeed fly away on Drogon but she hasn't been able to return because Drogon has not bent to her will. 

 

Again an exaggeration. Dany agrees for them to be "questioned sharply" we don't know what exactly that consists of. 

 

Well Westeros is hardly in the state Meereen is so it's not completely comparable but I never argued Tywin didn't have good reason for some of the things he has done. I do think you are giving him quite a bit of liberties here while nit-picking every decision Daenerys has made & trying to find the 'evil' in it.

Tywin isn't interested in justice or the oppression of the small folk. He is interested in furthering his name & his house. Not necessarily a bad cause but it naturally seems more sympathetic to us when Dany is fighting for the people who can't fight for themselves. 

If you recall I was defending Tywin in saying Gregor is the real evil there. The issue is you aren't applying the same standards to both. 

Dany ordered all males above the age of 12 wearing a tokar to be killed, whether they were slavers or not. How can you possibly claim Dany is not responsible for this when these were her direct orders? She then ordered all of the slaves in Astapor freed. How can she not be responsible for the murders of free women and children that they committed? That's like saying, "All I did was set the drapes on fire. It's not my fault that the whole house burned down."

You can give Tywin these same excuses for all the evil he caused. All he did was send Gregor and Co. into the riverlands in an attempt to free his son from the Erie. It's not his fault that they then burned, raped and killed their way across the countryside. Again, I ask the question: why does Tywin get tarnished with the stain of evil for all he's done, but Dany gets a pass for doing the exact same thing?

What did Dany do to fix the problems in Meereen? She planted beans. She locked two of her dragons away so they wouldn't eat people. This is far less than what Tywin did to ease the suffering in King's Landing. He made peace with his enemies and brought food back to the capital. He didn't fly away and leave his subjects to fend for themselves.

Questioned sharply, aka "put to the question", is a euphemism for torture. Dany knows this because she first wanted them questioned sweetly, at first, and then changes her mind to sharply. She is ordering the torture of a man and his daughter when she does not know if they are guilty of any crime.

I am not nitpicking anything. I am judging both equally by the decisions they have made and the consequences of those decisions. Both have unleashed huge amounts of death and destruction on the world. I just don't see why people chalk Tywin's actions up to him being evil while Dany commits the same atrocities but still gets to be good.

We don't know what Tywin's true inner motivations are because we don't have his POV. But his overriding goal is to bring peace and prosperity to the kingdom on his terms. This is exactly what Dany is doing. And Tywin is at least fighting to preserve his homeland while Dany is invading foreign lands and in the interests of saving people is leading them to war, famine, disease and death.

 

 

[John Suburbs]

14 minutes ago, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

Poor fashion sense

Lol, that must be it. As long as you are a good dresser you cannot be evil. All Gregor needs to do to absolve himself is get himself a nice doublet and pair of breeches.