Ramsay and Euron

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

16 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Dany ordered all males above the age of 12 wearing a tokar to be killed, whether they were slavers or not. How can you possibly claim Dany is not responsible for this when these were her direct orders? She then ordered all of the slaves in Astapor freed. How can she not be responsible for the murders of free women and children that they committed? That's like saying, "All I did was set the drapes on fire. It's not my fault that the whole house burned down

The reason she ordered the murder of the tokar wearing males above age 12 is because they are the slavers! 

She most definitely isn't responsible for the freed slaves crimes. Your comparison doesn't fit. What you are saying is that the government or whoever may set a prisoner free is responsible for any crime they may commit after being released. 

If you see a dog in a well that can't get out on its own & you help it get out & then later it bites someone, is that your fault? 

19 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

can give Tywin these same excuses for all the evil he caused. All he did was send Gregor and Co. into the riverlands in an attempt to free his son from the Erie. It's not his fault that they then burned, raped and killed their way across the countryside. Again, I ask the question: why does Tywin get tarnished with the stain of evil for all he's done, but Dany gets a pass for doing the exact same thing

And again I will remind you I wasn't arguing Tywin is responsible for all of that. But Tywin did not send Gregor & Co into the riverlands in an attempt to free his son, he sent them to do what he knew Gregor would: rape, burn, pillage, & murder. 

The difference between them is Dany freed a set of people that were being held prisoner & treated very poorly. Tywin purposely sent Gregor to the riverlands to reek havoc. 

I was never arguing Tywin was tarnished but to say he & Dany did the exact same things is false. 

22 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

What did Dany do to fix the problems in Meereen? She planted beans. She locked two of her dragons away so they wouldn't eat people. This is far less than what Tywin did to ease the suffering in King's Landing. He made peace with his enemies and brought food back to the capital. He didn't fly away and leave his subjects to fend for themselves

She holds court every day to listen to the people's complaints & try to fix them. 

You cannot just keep repeating the same thing "she flew away & left her subjects to fend for themselves" while ignoring my response to this already & expect to have a productive conversation. 

She did not purposely fly away & leave them to defend themselves as you well know. She flew away on a whim trying to deescalate a rapidly deteriorating situation & has been unable to return. Her whole 'government' is still in place there. It is only her that is missing. 

26 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Questioned sharply, aka "put to the question", is a euphemism for torture. Dany knows this because she first wanted them questioned sweetly, at first, and then changes her mind to sharply. She is ordering the torture of a man and his daughter when she does not know if they are guilty of any crime

No it isn't. Maybe in your mind "question sharply" equals torture. Question sweetly to me means to merely ask. Question sharply could mean to yell & scream, threaten, &/or carry out those threats or physical harm or any combination of the above. We don't know what happened because we aren't privy to that information. 

 

32 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

am not nitpicking anything. I am judging both equally by the decisions they have made and the consequences of those decisions. Both have unleashed huge amounts of death and destruction on the world. I just don't see why people chalk Tywin's actions up to him being evil while Dany commits the same atrocities but still gets to be good.

But they aren't the same. That's what I'm trying to tell you. The decisions they have made & the reasons for those decisions are very different. I haven't chalked Tywin's actions up to him being evil. I don't necessarily think he is good but I would say he is cunning, smart, resourceful, proud, & dutiful among other things. He has made some questionable orders & so has Dany. But they aren't the same orders & they aren't for the same reasons. 

 

35 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

We don't know what Tywin's true inner motivations are because we don't have his POV. But his overriding goal is to bring peace and prosperity to the kingdom on his terms. This is exactly what Dany is doing. And Tywin is at least fighting to preserve his homeland while Dany is invading foreign lands and in the interests of saving people is leading them to war, famine, disease and death.

We don't know Tywin's inner motivations & therefore cannot say with any degree of certainty what his overriding goal is. Saying his goal is peace & prosperity is giving him the liberties I was speaking of. Saying Dany is leading them to war, famine, disease, & death - when not only do we know this is not her goal but we also know the majority of those things are not her fault is nitpicking her to twist things to make them seem worse than they are. 

[Stormking902]

On 7/30/2019 at 11:44 AM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Although certainly a villain, I never thought of Gregor as evil. Perhaps he should evoke at least a modicum of sympathy due to the blinding headaches he experienced, which led him down the road to addiction? 

Gregor not evil?? This is a man who gets his jollys from rape and murder, who burned his brothers face HORRIBLY because he was useing his toy, a man who litterally destroys entire villages for kicks. Yet his headachs gives him an excuse? NO the man is evil plain and simple. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

57 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

Gregor not evil?? This is a man who gets his jollys from rape and murder, who burned his brothers face HORRIBLY because he was useing his toy, a man who litterally destroys entire villages for kicks. Yet his headachs gives him an excuse? NO the man is evil plain and simple. 

I guess I see evil as a subjective term, defining the end of a spectrum, the opposite of which would be bad. Is Gregor all the way to the evil end of the spectrum? He murdered, raped, and took what he wanted, but as Sandor points out, many noble knights get away with doing similar things. No doubt, though, Gregor is extremely cruel and brutish. 

Oh, and I absolutely agree that the headaches and addiction do not excuse his actions, but perhaps we can feel some measure sympathy for the man. 

[Sigella]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

You keep talking about the slavers as if they were the only ones killed in Astapor. What about all of the other men above the age of 12 wearing tokars who never kept slaves, trained slaves or turned children into Unsullied? What crime were they guilty of?

Casualties aren't war crimes. Being killed during a sack isn't the same as being raped and tortured to death. Dany's attack on Astapor was executed cleaner than most.

I'm interested to hear what you think should have been done, like are you proposing leaving them go on to train Unsullied children? Please explain to me how that would be morally better because I can't see it. 

For me every single Unsullied represents a worse fate than some young lordlings, who already spent all their formative years reaping the benefits from said Unsullied, getting speared. Its a no contest to me.

Kraznys puts both Euron and Ramsay in the shade to touch back on topic  "Lets force children to strangle puppies, yaaay"

[Hugorfonics]

On 8/7/2019 at 12:08 PM, John Suburbs said:

Hogwash, Astapor was sacked and burned on Dany's orders. To think that no women and children were killed simply because Dany ordered the Unsullied not to do so is beyond naïve.

Danys orders were specifically not to kill women and children. So to say thousands of children and women were killed by her is simply incorrect. 

Obviously some women (and i guess a few kids) died, along with all freeborn man. Guess how much sympathy I have? Lol (I mean, the kids are sad) These freeborn non slavers still probably owned slaves, if not they were accessories to unsullied training or the general slave factory atmosphere. 

On 8/7/2019 at 12:08 PM, John Suburbs said:

. Then she compounded this act of evil by abandoning the city to pursue her next conquest, and the result was another sacking by the Yunkai, whom she allowed to remain in power because it did not suit her needs to remove these slavers as well. So through both action and inaction, Dany unleashed the evil that resulted in tens of thousands of innocent deaths.

To put the blame of the GM of Yunkai on Dany is absurd, although I agree that Dany was a shitty ally and perhaps could have done more despite her desperate peace talks. Still, your pulling a 9 degrees of Sansa Stark. Danys not to blame for the actions of her enemies.

Furthermore for every unsullied that will no longer be created is a mothers baby thats no longer killed for training. I'll venture to say that Dany will supersede the tens of thousands of lives saved. (And I still take issues with your numbers and would love a citation)

On 8/7/2019 at 12:08 PM, John Suburbs said:

So once again, we have the hypocrisy that lays all the blame for what happened in Westeros in Tywin's lap, but Dany gets a pass for what happened in Slavers Bay.

I never said that. I think its Sansa lol. Which shows just how ridiculous this train of thought is

On 8/7/2019 at 12:08 PM, John Suburbs said:

Lol, so they had the freedom to follow Dany, and starve and die wretched deaths, the freedom to stay where they were, and be slaughtered like goats, or the freedom to go somewhere else, and either starve or be re-enslaved. The life of a slave is no picnic, but it is only marginally worse than the life of a commoner in Westeros, who could be raped, killed or starved at the whims of their lords. So, yes, I would argue that living and working as a slave, getting food, shelter, a place to sleep, and protection, is far better than following some mad queen on a lustful journey to power where you end up shitting yourself to death while she basks in the most luxurious pyramid of the city she just sacked.

Sorry to burst your bubble, Hugo, but plenty of slaves are perfectly happy. Both in-story and in real life, slaves attained positions of high honor and authority as teachers, scribes, book-keepers, not to mention carpenters, tanners, teamsters and even overseers of other slaves. The slave in Volantis whose only job was to cart people around with his little elephant didn't seem all that miserable to me. But I imagine he would be if he got a chance to chuck that life only to find himself dying of the bloody flux a few months later.

Dude, theyre slaves. You sound like Penny, you want to wear bells every time you walk while they chop your dick off? What about the guy in Volantis whos job it is, is to clean up that elephants shit. How miserable is that fucking life? 

Yea, Dany gave them choices. Its like giving a thirsty man water or a hungry man food, its the greatest gift. And suprise suprise, they almost exclusively choose to stay in Meereen, even when the talk of the town is Danys deader then Cleos the freedmen stay in Meereen.

Smallfolk life aint great to say the least. But theyre not slaves. They can not be raped on a whim, thats a crime in Westeros, its called rape. When Roose raped Ramsays mother he had to "silence" her husband, a slaveowner has no fear of what their victims may say. Theyre property and its legal, thats not the case in the Sunset. 

Its also not about them, but their kids. Those are slaves, guaranteed. They don't evem have to be auctioned, you can breed em like cattle. 

Westeros is different, the poorest of the poor can be anything short of king. From using connections like Dunk of the KG or through brilliance like Davos the hand of the king. The man wont even bow to Wyman in his own court, itd be almost funny how unthinkable that is for a slave if it wasnt so damn depressing

On 8/7/2019 at 12:08 PM, John Suburbs said:

Tywin did not order the rape of Elia. He did order the murder of the children, but he did not do that just for kicks. In his mind, it was necessary to prove his loyalty to the new king and to prevent a counter-rebellion from brewing later. In other words, a necessary evil in order to achieve a greater good. This is the exact excuse you use for Dany, why does Tywin not deserve the same?

In Tywin's mind, Joffrey is the rightful and lawful king. He is attempting to restore order to the realm and bring justice to criminals. That's his goal, and it is just as lofty and noble as Dany's.

Theres a lot of words to describe showing Robert 2 dragonspawns on a Lannister banner. I like the term, fucked up dowary. I do not agree with the term greater good.

Targaryens still plagued Roberts Kingdom, though not at all nor did Robert try anything but that one time. And if we're talking about the counter rebellion of Aegon vi specifically, lol good job Tywin, theres no Aegon vi around now, and certainly not one whos story is known to all of Westeros directly because of Tywins order

Fighting for your grandsons throne is noble and all that, but unless your fighting nazis or some shit its not fighting evil, its just protecting your grandson. 

On 8/7/2019 at 12:08 PM, John Suburbs said:

None of this would be happening if Dany hadn't marched into their lands and attempted to destroy the culture that has existed relatively peacefully for thousands of years. All of the violence in the area, both the direct violence that Dany orders and the inevitable reaction from people whose ways of life are being threatened, are a direct result of Dany's decisions. She is the locus for all the war, famine, disease and death that is occurring in the region. None of this would be happening if she had simply gone back to Pentos to reconnect with Illyrio --although, in all fairness, it would be happening in Westeros.

Fuck their culture man. It has not existed peacefully. For every unsullied is a dead baby. Does that sound peacful? Multiply that by the number of unsullied and by every year of the past thousands. Yeah. Dany did not start the violence. Red bricks man, red bricks.

Dany has not just threatened to change the ghiscaris way of life, she has freed them of it.

On 8/7/2019 at 12:08 PM, John Suburbs said:

By your logic, I could punch someone in the face and break their jaw, but they would be the evil one if they got back up and tweaked my nose.

If theyre slavers

 

On 8/7/2019 at 12:08 PM, John Suburbs said:

Read the text. Robb destroyed the army at Oxcross, and then he:

•  took the city of Ashemark
• took the Crag

meanwhile, under his orders, his bannermen:

• raided up and down the coast of the Sunset Sea, like the ironmen do
• raided the hinterlands stealing livestock and other valuables that smallfolk depend upon for their very lives
• captured the gold mine's at Nunn's Deep, Castamere and Pendric Hills

Do you think that at each stop the good northmen politely asked the evil westermen to give up their belongings. Was it the westermen who were evil by defending their homes and towns from these saintly invaders? There was battle and bloodshed and probably more than a few rapes in all of this. All the while, stories are circulating about northmen turning into wolves and feasting on the bodies of the slain, Robb feeding the hearts of his victims to his wolf and all manner of other atrocities. True or not, this is what the people believe. To them, Robb is evil beyond imagination;

Ashemark not a city its a castle, one that I cant recall Addam complaing about.

Robbs bannermen werent great.

Robb and Dany need some imagination to make them look like a monster, Tywin just needs a biography

On 8/7/2019 at 12:08 PM, John Suburbs said:

Tywin is their hero for having gotten rid of him.

No he didn't. Lol, and no one without the last name Frey sees the RW as anything close to heroic.

On 8/7/2019 at 12:08 PM, John Suburbs said:

Yes, the Martells think Tywin is a tyrant too, and they hold him ultimately responsible for the deaths of their kin, not just the men who did the deeds. All of this points up the fallacy that since thousands of slaves admire Dany and call her Mysa that she is not doing any evil. Thousands of westermen admire Tywin and call him The Great Lion of the Rock. Again, why the different standards when judging Dany vs. Tywin?

When Tywin sacks a city they still hate him almost 20 years later, when Dany sacks a city they scream Mysha. You can do the math man.

And what thousands of westernmen admired or called him the Great Lion of the Rock?

On 8/7/2019 at 12:08 PM, John Suburbs said:

Even by this reckoning, which is disengenuous at best, Sansa's death-count is a pittance compared to Dany, who at 16 has caused far more death and destruction then Tywin at that age.

More then Sansa?! Why did Ned go south? (That alone pretty much started everything?) Why did Robb continue to fight? Why was the Kingslayer freed? These were all dramatic turning points in Westeros current events, firmly established because of Sansa. At 12 lol

[Hugorfonics]

On 8/7/2019 at 2:17 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The tokar wearing individuals are slavers. 

I dont think all of them

Quote

All wrapped themselves in tokars, a garment permitted only to freeborn men of Astapor.

And although it says men, Dany wears her floppy ears as well. Perhaps women can wear them too, or maybe just queens, or maybe Astapor and Meereen have different laws regarding the tokar?

 

On 8/7/2019 at 9:09 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The Freedom War going in Mereen is for a good cause, to bring freedom to millions of slaves.  The American Civil War was bloody and it brought a lot of suffering to the slaving states.  Many of the people who suffered were non-owners of slaves.  If the Southern states had just complied and given up slaving a lot of suffering could have been avoided.  The trouble in Mereen are caused by the slave masters who refuse to give up.  The masters are trying to bring slavery back.  

If only American history was that noble. The south seceded because they felt like Lincoln might try to abolish slavery, not that he said he would. He certainly didnt campaign on it. If anything I doubt he would have ever tried, the fugitive slave act was just passed by the supreme court like 10 years prior, things were not going well for slaves untill the South seceded and attacked Fort Sumter. Lol god bless those stupid bastards. 

But yea, some went kicking and screaming, mainly right after in Johnson and Grants presidency, just like the GM do. But now we're 150 years past that and the south is no longer kicking and screaming about their lost property, in fact they realize the evil ways of their ancestors. It just takes time

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

45 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont think all of them

Maybe not. I thought all the freeborn men were slavers though. I could be wrong. 

[Sigella]

8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I dont think all of them

About tokars Dany 1, aDoD:

"The garment was a clumsy thing, a long loose shapeless sheet that had to be wound around her hips and under an arm and over a shoulder, its dangling fringes carefully layered and displayed. Wound too loose, it was like to fall off; wound too tight, it would tangle, trip, and bind. Even wound properly, the tokar required its wearer to hold it in place with the left hand. Walking in a tokar demanded small, mincing steps and exquisite balance, lest one tread upon those heavy trailing fringes. It was not a garment meant for any man who had to work. The tokar was a master's garment, a sign of wealth and power."

 

The orders in sacking Astapor:

"Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip" 

 

So effectively it means no workers or non-slavers was to be touched. What the freed slaves do isn't on Dany, she gave them freedom and they chose for themselves what to do with it.

[John Suburbs]

22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

The reason she ordered the murder of the tokar wearing males above age 12 is because they are the slavers! 

She most definitely isn't responsible for the freed slaves crimes. Your comparison doesn't fit. What you are saying is that the government or whoever may set a prisoner free is responsible for any crime they may commit after being released. 

If you see a dog in a well that can't get out on its own & you help it get out & then later it bites someone, is that your fault? 

And again I will remind you I wasn't arguing Tywin is responsible for all of that. But Tywin did not send Gregor & Co into the riverlands in an attempt to free his son, he sent them to do what he knew Gregor would: rape, burn, pillage, & murder. 

The difference between them is Dany freed a set of people that were being held prisoner & treated very poorly. Tywin purposely sent Gregor to the riverlands to reek havoc. 

I was never arguing Tywin was tarnished but to say he & Dany did the exact same things is false. 

She holds court every day to listen to the people's complaints & try to fix them. 

You cannot just keep repeating the same thing "she flew away & left her subjects to fend for themselves" while ignoring my response to this already & expect to have a productive conversation. 

She did not purposely fly away & leave them to defend themselves as you well know. She flew away on a whim trying to deescalate a rapidly deteriorating situation & has been unable to return. Her whole 'government' is still in place there. It is only her that is missing. 

No it isn't. Maybe in your mind "question sharply" equals torture. Question sweetly to me means to merely ask. Question sharply could mean to yell & scream, threaten, &/or carry out those threats or physical harm or any combination of the above. We don't know what happened because we aren't privy to that information. 

 

But they aren't the same. That's what I'm trying to tell you. The decisions they have made & the reasons for those decisions are very different. I haven't chalked Tywin's actions up to him being evil. I don't necessarily think he is good but I would say he is cunning, smart, resourceful, proud, & dutiful among other things. He has made some questionable orders & so has Dany. But they aren't the same orders & they aren't for the same reasons. 

 

We don't know Tywin's inner motivations & therefore cannot say with any degree of certainty what his overriding goal is. Saying his goal is peace & prosperity is giving him the liberties I was speaking of. Saying Dany is leading them to war, famine, disease, & death - when not only do we know this is not her goal but we also know the majority of those things are not her fault is nitpicking her to twist things to make them seem worse than they are. 

Not everybody in a tokar is a slaver. All of the Unsullied slavers were in the plaza with Kraznys, so she had all the principal culprits right there. By ordering all men wearing tokars to be killed, she is ordering the execution of tailors, cobblers, wine merchants and any and all other freedmen in the city regardless of whether they are involved in the slave trade or even if  owned slaves or not.

She launches an attack on the slavers in the plaza, starting the violence, then orders all slaves in the city to be freed and all free men to be killed. How can you possibly say she is not responsible for their deaths or the deaths of other innocents that she has not expressly mentioned. She took peaceful city and turned it into a bloodbath. If you rescued the dog and then commanded it to bite someone, yes that is your fault.

But Tywin is responsible for all of that. He is the one who issued the orders. None of those people would have been harmed if not for Tywin. He did send Gregor into the riverlands in direct response to his son being taken, to get Ned to come north so he would have a hostage to trade for Tyrion. Again, if you only hold those who actually commit the atrocities responsible for their actions, you let off an entire history of tyrants, dictators, warlords and others who never harmed anyone personally but who unleased all manner of evil into the world. Do a Google search for a guy named Charles Taylor and tell me that only his child soldiers are responsible for cutting off the arms of thousands of African girls but not him. Is he being unjustly imprisoned by the British as we speak?

Not all slaves are treated poorly. Missandei is not, neither is the palanquin driver in Volantis. Many slaves achieve positions of high honor and responsibility in their houses and live lives that are far more comfortable than the average Westerosi smallfolk, who can be beaten, tortured, raped and killed by the whim of their lord.

Sorry, but the parallels between Tywin and Dany are too great to ignore: 

• Tywin marched on the Reynes and Tarbecks, destroyed their castles and eliminated their families; Dany destroyed the House of the Undying and killed everyone in it
• Tywin winkled his way into King's Landing and the sacked the city; Dany did the exact same thing in Astapor
• Tywin seizes power through conquest and marriage; Dany does the same
• Both Tywin and Dany seek to control the Iron Throne and bring Westeros under their rule
• Both of them have three "children" and both have dead spouses
• Neither one hesitates to use violence and commit atrocities against innocent people to achieve their political aims

They are two warlords striving to build empires for themselves, and they are so self-righteous in their beliefs that they don't care how many innocent people have to die screaming in order to get what they want.

She did fly away, willingly and intentionally, and now the "free" people of Meereen have to contend not only with the slavers and their armies but the two other dragons that she left behind. It was a cowardly and incredibly selfish thing to do and will likely result in the deaths of countless more innocent people that she us supposed to be "rescuing." To say that she just did this "on a whim" so she is excused from the consequences is disingenuous at best.

But I think part of the disconnect we are having is the idea that in order to commit evil acts, one has to be evil in heart and mind. But this is clearly not the case, as both real-life an in-story has shown over and over again. So as I've said before, Dany may very well have good intentions, but as the saying goes the road to hell is paved with good intentions. She is nevertheless the architect of the four evils (war, famine, disease and death) that have befallen a once peaceful, if less than perfectly just, civilization. Tywin has good intentions as well, and he has brought the four evils to an equally peaceful, if less than perfectly just, civilization. So I don't think we should just let them off the hook because they are not the ones who are physically committing these atrocities. They are the puppet-masters for all of it.

Sorry but no, questioned sharply means to inflict torture. Any other interpretation is naïve.

Neither Tywin nor Dany's ultimate goal is WFDD, but they are both unleashing these evils willingly in order to achieve their goals, which are exactly the same: to bring about peace, prosperity, justice and all the rest with themselves as the holders of supreme authority.

 

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Sigella said:

Casualties aren't war crimes. Being killed during a sack isn't the same as being raped and tortured to death. Dany's attack on Astapor was executed cleaner than most.

I'm interested to hear what you think should have been done, like are you proposing leaving them go on to train Unsullied children? Please explain to me how that would be morally better because I can't see it. 

For me every single Unsullied represents a worse fate than some young lordlings, who already spent all their formative years reaping the benefits from said Unsullied, getting speared. Its a no contest to me.

Kraznys puts both Euron and Ramsay in the shade to touch back on topic  "Lets force children to strangle puppies, yaaay"

Really? I think the people who were raped, tortured and killed during the sack of KL would disagree with you.

Cleaner? Thousands of innocent people were brutally murdered (and probably raped and tortured as well) in cold blood and the city was left in ruins. In what way is that "cleaner"? At least Tywin had the decency to remain in King's Landing and set things to right.

She could have given up her lust for power and devoted herself to a life of simple servitude. Let others bear responsibility for the evil they cause.

And what about all those who had nothing to do with training unsullied, or slaving, or might not even have owned slaves at all? Not everyone who wears a tokar is a slaver.

Yes, I had not considered Kraznys in my earlier posts, but he is definitely up there with Tywin and Dany on the evil scale. But he, along with the other Good Masters, were already dead or dying in the plaza when Dany ordered the murder of all males over 12 regardless of whether they reaped any benefits from Unsullied or not. Then she ordered the release of all slaves who are not bound by her orders to the Unsullied and allowed them to rampage through the city, raping, torturing and killing anyone they pleased.

Like I told Lyanna, I think the disconnect we're having is this idea that if a person is not evil in heart and mind, that as long as their intentions are good, then they do not commit evil acts. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Both Tywin and Dany have inflicted untold amounts of death and misery on innocent people, and both have the good intentions of providing a better world, with them in control. So it is the actions that are evil here, not the people -- and by that standard, both Tywin and Dany (and Kraznys) are guilty of inflicting the largest amount of evil on the world -- far more than Gregor, Ramsay and the like who are most likely suffering from some physical or emotional defect that drives them to do what they do.

 

[Sigella]

21 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Really? I think the people who were raped, tortured and killed during the sack of KL would disagree with you.

Cleaner? Thousands of innocent people were brutally murdered (and probably raped and tortured as well) in cold blood and the city was left in ruins. In what way is that "cleaner"? At least Tywin had the decency to remain in King's Landing and set things to right.

She could have given up her lust for power and devoted herself to a life of simple servitude. Let others bear responsibility for the evil they cause.

And what about all those who had nothing to do with training unsullied, or slaving, or might not even have owned slaves at all? Not everyone who wears a tokar is a slaver.

Yes, I had not considered Kraznys in my earlier posts, but he is definitely up there with Tywin and Dany on the evil scale. But he, along with the other Good Masters, were already dead or dying in the plaza when Dany ordered the murder of all males over 12 regardless of whether they reaped any benefits from Unsullied or not. Then she ordered the release of all slaves who are not bound by her orders to the Unsullied and allowed them to rampage through the city, raping, torturing and killing anyone they pleased.

Like I told Lyanna, I think the disconnect we're having is this idea that if a person is not evil in heart and mind, that as long as their intentions are good, then they do not commit evil acts. But the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Both Tywin and Dany have inflicted untold amounts of death and misery on innocent people, and both have the good intentions of providing a better world, with them in control. So it is the actions that are evil here, not the people -- and by that standard, both Tywin and Dany (and Kraznys) are guilty of inflicting the largest amount of evil on the world -- far more than Gregor, Ramsay and the like who are most likely suffering from some physical or emotional defect that drives them to do what they do.

 

You're wrong here. Giving someone freedom isn't the same as accepting responsibility for their future actions.

 

If you have a look at the quotes I wrote for Hugorphonic you'll surely see that a token isn't a neutral garment in any case, because they weren't written neutral.

[John Suburbs]

14 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Danys orders were specifically not to kill women and children. So to say thousands of children and women were killed by her is simply incorrect. 

Obviously some women (and i guess a few kids) died, along with all freeborn man. Guess how much sympathy I have? Lol (I mean, the kids are sad) These freeborn non slavers still probably owned slaves, if not they were accessories to unsullied training or the general slave factory atmosphere. 

To put the blame of the GM of Yunkai on Dany is absurd, although I agree that Dany was a shitty ally and perhaps could have done more despite her desperate peace talks. Still, your pulling a 9 degrees of Sansa Stark. Danys not to blame for the actions of her enemies.

Furthermore for every unsullied that will no longer be created is a mothers baby thats no longer killed for training. I'll venture to say that Dany will supersede the tens of thousands of lives saved. (And I still take issues with your numbers and would love a citation)

I never said that. I think its Sansa lol. Which shows just how ridiculous this train of thought is

Dude, theyre slaves. You sound like Penny, you want to wear bells every time you walk while they chop your dick off? What about the guy in Volantis whos job it is, is to clean up that elephants shit. How miserable is that fucking life? 

Yea, Dany gave them choices. Its like giving a thirsty man water or a hungry man food, its the greatest gift. And suprise suprise, they almost exclusively choose to stay in Meereen, even when the talk of the town is Danys deader then Cleos the freedmen stay in Meereen.

Smallfolk life aint great to say the least. But theyre not slaves. They can not be raped on a whim, thats a crime in Westeros, its called rape. When Roose raped Ramsays mother he had to "silence" her husband, a slaveowner has no fear of what their victims may say. Theyre property and its legal, thats not the case in the Sunset. 

Its also not about them, but their kids. Those are slaves, guaranteed. They don't evem have to be auctioned, you can breed em like cattle. 

Westeros is different, the poorest of the poor can be anything short of king. From using connections like Dunk of the KG or through brilliance like Davos the hand of the king. The man wont even bow to Wyman in his own court, itd be almost funny how unthinkable that is for a slave if it wasnt so damn depressing

Theres a lot of words to describe showing Robert 2 dragonspawns on a Lannister banner. I like the term, fucked up dowary. I do not agree with the term greater good.

Targaryens still plagued Roberts Kingdom, though not at all nor did Robert try anything but that one time. And if we're talking about the counter rebellion of Aegon vi specifically, lol good job Tywin, theres no Aegon vi around now, and certainly not one whos story is known to all of Westeros directly because of Tywins order

Fighting for your grandsons throne is noble and all that, but unless your fighting nazis or some shit its not fighting evil, its just protecting your grandson. 

Fuck their culture man. It has not existed peacefully. For every unsullied is a dead baby. Does that sound peacful? Multiply that by the number of unsullied and by every year of the past thousands. Yeah. Dany did not start the violence. Red bricks man, red bricks.

Dany has not just threatened to change the ghiscaris way of life, she has freed them of it.

If theyre slavers

 

Ashemark not a city its a castle, one that I cant recall Addam complaing about.

Robbs bannermen werent great.

Robb and Dany need some imagination to make them look like a monster, Tywin just needs a biography

No he didn't. Lol, and no one without the last name Frey sees the RW as anything close to heroic.

When Tywin sacks a city they still hate him almost 20 years later, when Dany sacks a city they scream Mysha. You can do the math man.

And what thousands of westernmen admired or called him the Great Lion of the Rock?

More then Sansa?! Why did Ned go south? (That alone pretty much started everything?) Why did Robb continue to fight? Why was the Kingslayer freed? These were all dramatic turning points in Westeros current events, firmly established because of Sansa. At 12 lol

Her orders were to kill any male above the age of 12 wearing a tokar, regardless of whether they were slavers or not. So this would include all tailors, armorers, innkeepers, wine merchants and their sons, even if they didn't even own slaves. And then her orders were to strike the shackles from all slaves who are not bound by her orders to the Unsullied. So it is beyond naïve to think that once the chaos started, these men would not murder women and children. It's what happens in all sacks.

If someone burst into your house and murdered your family right before your eyes, would you say it was just and proper because you are so wealthy and well-fed while others in the world are poor and starving? All of these people were simply living in the world as it had existed for thousands of years. They don't deserve to die any more than we do if some moralistic dragon queen were to suddenly declare each and every one of us guilty for supporting a system where feral children live in landfills eating garbage.

Dany's enemies were peacefully living the lives that their ancestors lived for thousands of years. She is the one who came in and unleashed all of this evil into their world. They are the ones who are not to blame for her actions.

And again, Tywin is instigating the rape and murder of thousands of smallfolk because this will ultimately save the lives of those who fall into misery and penury under King Stannis or King Robb. Everybody has their excuses, but like assholes, they all stink. Dany did not have to kill every single freedman in Astapor to get her army. She did not even have to go into Slaver's Bay to get an army. Committing evil acts in order to make a better world is the time-honored excuse of both tyrants and heroes. 

But like I told Sig and Lyanna, I think part of the disconnect we are having is this idea that someone must be inherently evil and heart and soul in order to commit evil acts. But this is clearly not the case, both in-story and real life. So just because I am saying that Tywin and Dany are causing the greatest amount of evil in the world doesn't mean that they are the most evil. Both of them think they are doing good.

Your Sansa argument is indeed silly. She never orders anybody to kill anyone. She's a piece, not a player.

In Westeros there are free men whose job it is to clean up horse shit. They get zero wages for this work, just food and a bed, they have no possibility to raise their station, but they are "free" to leave any time they want and go scratch out a subsistence living somewhere else. Meanwhile, it is perfectly legal for their lord (or any other lord), an a whim, to torture them, murder them, rape their daughters and commit all other atrocities on them with no recourse to the law. Aside from the collar, how is this different from a slave?

Please, two or three people out of millions rise from nothing to a lordship and you claim this is possible for all smallfolk. The vast majority of people in Westeros lived lives like in medieval Europe: trapped in their stations, laboring for peanuts, while lords and kings kept all the wealth and lived in what passed for luxury back then.

Tywin is fighting for peace and stability in the realm, just like he provided as HotK all those years ago. Dany is fighting for a worthy cause as well, but just because you've created an ego-centric view of who is and who is not evil doesn't mean they both aren't responsible for the evil that they've created.

I'm not saying that Dany's goals are evil or that the Astapori are angels. I am saying their society was functioning the way it had for thousands of years until she came along and set fire to it. Now, all those mothers who lost their babies are starving and shitting themselves to death outside Meereen or feeding crows on the killing fields of Astapor. Evil acts beget more evil, and the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

I never said they were monsters or inherently evil. Just that Dany being called Mysa by her followers does not absolve her from the evil she has committed any more than Tywin's statue will absolve him or Robb's good-guy personal absolves him. There is good and evil within every human heart.

 

 

[John Suburbs]

14 minutes ago, Sigella said:

You're wrong here. Giving someone freedom isn't the same as accepting responsibility for their future actions.

 

If you have a look at the quotes I wrote for Hugorphonic you'll surely see that a token isn't a neutral garment in any case, because they weren't written neutral.

Giving someone freedom while you are sacking their city so they can contribute even more to the sacking makes you fully responsible for their crimes. If you were to give freedom to a pack of starving dogs, would you not be responsible if they attacked and killed a cat, or a person?

Slavers and freedmen alike wear tokars. She is literally sentencing people, young boys, to death who have committed no crimes.

[Sigella]

25 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Giving someone freedom while you are sacking their city so they can contribute even more to the sacking makes you fully responsible for their crimes. If you were to give freedom to a pack of starving dogs, would you not be responsible if they attacked and killed a cat, or a person?

Slavers and freedmen alike wear tokars. She is literally sentencing people, young boys, to death who have committed no crimes.

I still have more sympathy for freed slaves sacking their masters than I do for the tickler.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

everybody in a tokar is a slaver. All of the Unsullied slavers were in the plaza with Kraznys, so she had all the principal culprits right there. By ordering all men wearing tokars to be killed, she is ordering the execution of tailors, cobblers, wine merchants and any and all other freedmen in the city regardless of whether they are involved in the slave trade or even if  owned slaves or not

I stand corrected about the tokars but as @Sigella said this is not a neutral garment, but a symbol of the elite & the very people who have fed this way of life & allowed it to continue. I'm not saying they necessarily should have been killed but call it what it is. 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

launches an attack on the slavers in the plaza, starting the violence, then orders all slaves in the city to be freed and all free men to be killed. How can you possibly say she is not responsible for their deaths or the deaths of other innocents that she has not expressly mentioned. She took peaceful city and turned it into a bloodbath. If you rescued the dog and then commanded it to bite someone, yes that is your fault.

She is partially responsible for the deaths she ordered - the other part of the blame lies with the people who followed her orders. But you can't have it both ways. If she is responsible for the deaths of the people she orders how can she then also be responsible for any deaths of women & children when she specifically ordered them not to hurt women & children? 

Peaceful city? Are you joking? I would bet the slaves & the unsullied would not describe it as peaceful. 

If you commanded the dog to bite then yes, you are partially responsible but the dog scenario was in reference to the freed men committing crimes. Not doing things Daenerys ordered them to. You cannot add to the scenario to make it fit your needs. IF the freed men committed rapes, tortures, murders, etc BUT Dany didn't order them to then the dog scenario fits the way I stated it. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

But Tywin is responsible for all of that. He is the one who issued the orders. None of those people would have been harmed if not for Tywin. He did send Gregor into the riverlands in direct response to his son being taken, to get Ned to come north so he would have a hostage to trade for Tyrion. Again, if you only hold those who actually commit the atrocities responsible for their actions, you let off an entire history of tyrants, dictators, warlords and others who never harmed anyone personally but who unleased all manner of evil into the world. Do a Google search for a guy named Charles Taylor and tell me that only his child soldiers are responsible for cutting off the arms of thousands of African girls but not him. Is he being unjustly imprisoned by the British as we speak?

I am not letting anyone off, you are. Tywin is PARTIALLY responsible. He ordered some of it & the blame for some of that lies with him. The people that carried out the deeds are not off the hook because Tywin ordered it. They hold blame as well. When we talk about children it's a different situation. But one adult to another - blame lies with both parties. 

 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

all slaves are treated poorly. Missandei is not, neither is the palanquin driver in Volantis. Many slaves achieve positions of high honor and responsibility in their houses and live lives that are far more comfortable than the average Westerosi smallfolk, who can be beaten, tortured, raped and killed by the whim of their lord

Come on man. I'm sure there are slaves that were treated decently but they are. Still. Slaves. They can be beaten, tortured, raped, & killed by the whim of their owner. I cannot imagine a situation where it would be better to remain a slave even if your life is harder upon being freed. If for no other reason than future generations, slaves should always be freed & anyone who stood by & did nothing is complicit in it as well. 

I will reply to the rest of your post in a bit, I'm running short on time atm.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 8/6/2019 at 12:32 PM, Starkz said:

War leads to disease. The bloody flux was a direct result of Dany’s actions and it’s foolish to think it’s not connected to her.

No.  The bloody flux is a disease caused by bacteria.  It would have happened, war or no war.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but the parallels between Tywin and Dany are too great to ignore: 

Ok back to the post. There are definitely parallels between the two - I didn't mean to suggest there wasn't. What I am pointing out is they are not the same. Mainly your last bulleted point. Daenerys does not want to hurt the innocent. She has never ordered crimes against the innocent. Her actions are harsh sometimes but she does make an attempt to keep the killing of Innocents to a minimum. Tywin orders Gregor to go terrorize the Innocents - see the difference? 

 

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

did fly away, willingly and intentionally, and now the "free" people of Meereen have to contend not only with the slavers and their armies but the two other dragons that she left behind. It was a cowardly and incredibly selfish thing to do and will likely result in the deaths of countless more innocent people that she us supposed to be "rescuing." To say that she just did this "on a whim" so she is excused from the consequences is disingenuous at best

Yes she flew away willingly & intentionally but it was most certainly "on a whim" it wasn't planned or calculated. It was an attempt to de-escalate the situation before more people or her dragon got hurt. Her other two dragons are chained up so they aren't going to hurt anyone that doesn't go down to them. Again, the Meereenese people still have the "government" Dany set up in tact. It is only her that left. I highly doubt anyone is going to be hurt or killed merely because Daenerys wasn't there to command someone to help protect them. It was definitely not cowardly or selfish. It was very brave to try to cow a raging dragon & then jump on its back to remove it from the situation - a dragon mind you who has never been ridden not has she ever rode one. That's more bravery than I have. 

What do you presume she should have done in the situation? What would have been a braver, selfless act? 

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I think part of the disconnect we are having is the idea that in order to commit evil acts, one has to be evil in heart and mind. But this is clearly not the case, as both real-life an in-story has shown over and over again. So as I've said before, Dany may very well have good intentions, but as the saying goes the road to hell is paved with good intentions. She is nevertheless the architect of the four evils (war, famine, disease and death) that have befallen a once peaceful, if less than perfectly just, civilization. Tywin has good intentions as well, and he has brought the four evils to an equally peaceful, if less than perfectly just, civilization. So I don't think we should just let them off the hook because they are not the ones who are physically committing these atrocities. They are the puppet-masters for all of it.

I agree, sort of. I don't believe someone has to be inherently evil to commit evil acts but I do consider what is in someone's heart & mind when putting them on my "evil" scale. It's not so much their intentions to me - although that does play a part, but more about what they feel. Who they are. For instance if someone causes harm to another human being by accident they are not very high on the scale. Or maybe not on it at all. If someone causes harm to another on purpose but feels great remorse for it they may possibly be low to middle on the scale. If someone causes harm to another person & relishes in their pain they are high on the scale. We aren't judging specific deeds as evil or not but specific people. The whole of their being needs to be taken into consideration & because of that I believe Daenerys to be the better of the two. 

 

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

but no, questioned sharply means to inflict torture. Any other interpretation is naïve

Just because you say so doesn't make it true. The fact that you insist your interpretation is the correct one & any others are naive sounds pretty naive to me. 

 

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Neither Tywin nor Dany's ultimate goal is WFDD, but they are both unleashing these evils willingly in order to achieve their goals, which are exactly the same: to bring about peace, prosperity, justice and all the rest with themselves as the holders of supreme authority.

Well we really don't know what Tywin's goal was do we? I would assume it isn't WFDD but nor would I go so far as to say it was to bring peace, prosperity & justice. Those words are at odds with what we do know about Tywin. 

[Hugorfonics]

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Her orders were to kill any male above the age of 12 wearing a tokar, regardless of whether they were slavers or not. So this would include all tailors, armorers, innkeepers, wine merchants and their sons, even if they didn't even own slaves.

As I said in my last post, I feel little sympathy. These are tailors and armorers who make their money off clothing the unsullied. The innkeepers and wine merchants get paid to make the GM happy. 

The whole city, hell, region, is corrupt. Slavers Bay is a stain on the world, an evil thats been indoctrinated in Essos since the fall of Valyria. This is not a regular city like Volantis, KL or anything from reality, its a factory that makes slaves. If you live there, you know how your bread gets buttered and at best are nothing but a collaborator.

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And then her orders were to strike the shackles from all slaves who are not bound by her orders to the Unsullied. So it is beyond naïve to think that once the chaos started, these men would not murder women and children. It's what happens in all sacks.

So you think as soon as a slave gets freed he'll start killing women and children? Im pretty sure theyll go after their former overseers and masters, the same ones Dany is fighting.

And in most sacks the sacking is done by the invaders, not by the people who live there.

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

If someone burst into your house and murdered your family right before your eyes, would you say it was just and proper because you are so wealthy and well-fed while others in the world are poor and starving? All of these people were simply living in the world as it had existed for thousands of years.

If we were slavers? Fuck yea! These people arent rich because of their intellect or hard work, nor even luck or classic capitalism, theyre rich because of their slaves hard work, for thosands of years.

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

They don't deserve to die any more than we do if some moralistic dragon queen were to suddenly declare each and every one of us guilty for supporting a system where feral children live in landfills eating garbage.

Lmao wtf? What system are you supporting? Where im from we (tell ourselves, maybe) try to do our best to combat homelessness specifically with children. Obviously its not fully eradicated but its not flaunted nor the backbone of our economy and way of life.

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Dany's enemies were peacefully living the lives that their ancestors lived for thousands of years. She is the one who came in and unleashed all of this evil into their world. They are the ones who are not to blame for her actions.

No they didnt, I said this last post too, lifes not peaceful when you murder babies every fucking day. Dany didnt unleashed evil into the world, she curbed it. 

Slavers Bay lasted for thousands of years, tyrants can only last one lifetime. Wars are even shorter.

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

And again, Tywin is instigating the rape and murder of thousands of smallfolk because this will ultimately save the lives of those who fall into misery and penury under King Stannis or King Robb.

For the realm? Has Tywin ever said that once? Citation please.

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Everybody has their excuses, but like assholes, they all stink. Dany did not have to kill every single freedman in Astapor to get her army. She did not even have to go into Slaver's Bay to get an army. Committing evil acts in order to make a better world is the time-honored excuse of both tyrants and heroes. 

But like I told Sig and Lyanna, I think part of the disconnect we are having is this idea that someone must be inherently evil and heart and soul in order to commit evil acts. But this is clearly not the case, both in-story and real life. So just because I am saying that Tywin and Dany are causing the greatest amount of evil in the world doesn't mean that they are the most evil. Both of them think they are doing good.

Tywin doesnt do things for "justice" or whats "right", words that Dany likes to say when deciding how to rule.

And liberating isnt evil, dont you understand that?

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

In Westeros there are free men whose job it is to clean up horse shit. They get zero wages for this work, just food and a bed, they have no possibility to raise their station, but they are "free" to leave any time they want and go scratch out a subsistence living somewhere else. Meanwhile, it is perfectly legal for their lord (or any other lord), an a whim, to torture them, murder them, rape their daughters and commit all other atrocities on them with no recourse to the law. Aside from the collar, how is this different from a slave?

It is not perfectly legal for the them to rape and torture. In fact its highly illigal, where do come up with this? There are laws in Westeros, the Lords often don't follow them but that doesn't mean they dont exisit. Unlike the slaves.... And slaves have no possibility to raise there station man, smallfolk do.

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Please, two or three people out of millions rise from nothing to a lordship and you claim this is possible for all smallfolk. The vast majority of people in Westeros lived lives like in medieval Europe: trapped in their stations, laboring for peanuts, while lords and kings kept all the wealth and lived in what passed for luxury back then.

There was a septon for a Hand once, and Steelshanks Walton collected the kingslayers ransom. Theres also the Clegane that was made a lord, Berics knights, any ironborn, etc

 

[Hugorfonics]

7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

There is good and evil within every human heart.

A Surfeit of Rulers, Fire & Blood

Can we see any sign of love or compassion or pity in the hearts of Ramsay or Euron? 

[Starkz]

On 8/7/2019 at 7:58 AM, Sigella said:

I don't hold people responsible for butterfly effects from their actions because it would be silly.

1 Dany frees the slaves

2 A big bunch starts to follow after her to Mereen

3 They set up camp outside with bad sanitary conditions

4 They get diseases

It's totally unreasonable laying blame for something that wasn't her choice. If we start blaming people for stuff 4 causality joints away then Sansa killed Ned, Walder Frey is to blame for hangings of his offspring, Rob is to blame for the Red Wedding, Arya for the deaths of Mycah and Syrio Forel... I could go on because it's aSoIaF down the rabbit hole and read with funny goggles.

 

edit: A direct result is something that happens at the second joint - as a direct result of no. 1. 

The bloody flux is a direct result of war. It’s noted several times through the trilogy and lore that war leads to disease and most notably the bloody flux. Daenerys does not know how to lead or care for a host and as a direct result of the lack of care disease happens. Barristan himself notes how the bloody flux has been the bane of the greatest armies as the army wasn’t properly cared for.