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... And the vilest of men and the wickedest of women likewise may do good from time to time, for love and compassion and pity may be found in even the blackest of hearts.

A Surfeit of Rulers, Fire & Blood

Can we see any sign of love or compassion or pity in the hearts of Ramsay or Euron? 

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I agree with @Corvo the Crow mostly but I think Joff is a different kind. I think he was taught to be cruel. I don't think he was inherently evil, at least not in the way I think of it. 

Euron is a nut case. 

Ramsay & Gregor are on another level from the other two I think. Not that Euron & Joff necessarily had much good in them but they were a lighter shade of dark than Ramsay & Gregor maybe. 

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Although certainly a villain, I never thought of Gregor as evil. Perhaps he should evoke at least a modicum of sympathy due to the blinding headaches he experienced, which led him down the road to addiction? 

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Joffrey was a spoiled brat with too much power, and the episode with the pregnant cat suggested that he was on the road to becoming a sociopath. If he were still less than eight or nine years of age, we might be able to suggest that he could not understand good versus bad, but the boy we met in the books was old enough to know right from wrong. Nevertheless, aren't we led to feel at least some small bit of sympathy for having been born to and raised by Cersei, as opposed to a caring and loving father like the Ned? 

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Yes exactly. He was definitely troubled & well on his way to being a psychopath but there is a sense of sympathy because of his parents. Not just Cersei but Robert as well. We know he was violent with him on one occasion & he pretty much ignored him other than that. I can't imagine what that does to a child's psyche. A mother that teaches you that you can take what you want & do what you want because you are above consequences & then a father that knocks your teeth out for doing the very things your mother said you were entitled to. That being said he was becoming of the age that IF he were not a psychopath he should have started behaving better & beginning to understand that NO ONE is above the consequences of their actions. 

I guess we don't know much about how Ramsay was raised either - from what we do know I would doubt he had a shining childhood though. 

Euron may have been raised rough also but he has siblings that turned out a little better than him so their was that option for him, he just didn't take it. 

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Posted (edited)
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... And the vilest of men and the wickedest of women likewise may do good from time to time, for love and compassion and pity may be found in even the blackest of hearts.

On 7/29/2019 at 6:21 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

A Surfeit of Rulers, Fire & Blood

Can we see any sign of love or compassion or pity in the hearts of Ramsay or Euron? 

The quote says "may be". In these two cases I don't really see any. Ramsay has committed crimes that make it very unlikely that he can feel pity or compassion. Euron seems to be evil in a slightly subtler way, perhaps, but evil nevertheless. 

 

Edited by Julia H.

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Posted (edited)

I don't think Euron sees himself as a person. In the Forsaken chapter he repeadetly tells Aeron to worship him as some sort of ''God'' My guess is no.
Ramsay was around two people during his upbringing, his mother who was raped by Roose, and Reek. Having a crazy dude as your idol during your formative years might be the reason for Ramsay's craziness, so I also don't think so. There's also the implication of being the product of rape.
Still, I think it's weird that they're supposedly presented as ''black'' characters when GRRM doesn't believe in that idea.
 

Quote

It was meant to be amusing, but he and Ramsay became inseparable. I do wonder, though … was it Ramsay who corrupted Reek, or Reek Ramsay?

Reek III

Edited by Jekse

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1 hour ago, Julia H. said:

The quote says "may be". In these two cases I don't really see any. Ramsay has committed crimes that make is very unlikely that he can feel pity or compassion. Euron seems to be evil in a slightly subtler way, perhaps, but evil nevertheless. 

I tend to agree. 

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I'd actually assume Ramsay is 'more redeemable' that Euron. Ramsay sort of has a couple of friends in his sycophants, and even one close friend in the original Reek. Also, it seems Little Walder started to like him - sure, he was a piece of shit, but one that made a bond with him.

I don't really understand how Ramsay could be even remotely as bad as he is. Are we to believe most of the Boltons are born evil? Or was he abused or mistreated by his mother and other kin?

Euron, on the other hand, seems to be completely inhuman. Everything human or likable about him is a facade. But he doesn't really buy he is a god himself, he just mocks his pious brother with his blasphemy.

Joff is mostly seen throughout the point of view of people who don't like him or who he has reason to despise (this includes the Stark girls since the Mycah affair). But he is capable of fear and the reader definitely pities him and is supposed to pity him when we watch him die through Tyrion's eyes.

 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But he doesn't really buy he is a god himself, he just mocks his pious brother with his blasphemy.

While you are right I don't think he sees himself as human.

Edited by Jekse

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6 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes exactly. He was definitely troubled & well on his way to being a psychopath but there is a sense of sympathy because of his parents. Not just Cersei but Robert as well. We know he was violent with him on one occasion & he pretty much ignored him other than that. I can't imagine what that does to a child's psyche. A mother that teaches you that you can take what you want & do what you want because you are above consequences & then a father that knocks your teeth out for doing the very things your mother said you were entitled to. That being said he was becoming of the age that IF he were not a psychopath he should have started behaving better & beginning to understand that NO ONE is above the consequences of their actions. 

I guess we don't know much about how Ramsay was raised either - from what we do know I would doubt he had a shining childhood though. 

Euron may have been raised rough also but he has siblings that turned out a little better than him so their was that option for him, he just didn't take it. 

This. I reckon Ramsay's childhood had a significant on his phenomenal persona...much as is the case with most humans.

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On 7/30/2019 at 4:41 PM, Lord Varys said:

I'd actually assume Ramsay is 'more redeemable' that Euron. Ramsay sort of has a couple of friends in his sycophants, and even one close friend in the original Reek. Also, it seems Little Walder started to like him - sure, he was a piece of shit, but one that made a bond with him.

I don't really understand how Ramsay could be even remotely as bad as he is. Are we to believe most of the Boltons are born evil? Or was he abused or mistreated by his mother and other kin?

His dad's not great with him.

I like the idea of Rams being redeemable, everyone deserves redemption. (Looking at you Jaime/Theon)

Now, are we to believe that all Boltons are evil? 

Sure! At least our concept of evil. Like the noble ghiscari whos business, recent history and general civilization is based soley off slavery. Are all these tokar wearing fools evil? Sure!

Old Nan describes a room in the Dreadfort where skin is draped on the wall like a Bravossi basement. While characters like Stark bask in their banner thinking the pack survives, Ramsay has to look at the Flayedman for inspiration. Nor do I think its a coincidence that his sick and perverse hunt seems like a weird knockoff bootleg version of Skinchanging.

Because Rams has brought Bolton to its greatest glory, since its ancient history, I think his ancestors would be proud. Im not terribly surprised how Rams turned out. My father taught me to hold doors for the elderly, Rams' father taught him a flayed man has no secrets.

15 hours ago, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

I think the way Ramsay took in and took care of Theon shows he has compassion and humanity.

He wants his Reek back

On 7/30/2019 at 4:41 PM, Lord Varys said:

and the reader definitely pities him and is supposed to pity him when we watch him die through Tyrion's eyes.

Oh? Were we, whoops. Lol

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Posted (edited)
On 7/29/2019 at 12:21 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

A Surfeit of Rulers, Fire & Blood

Can we see any sign of love or compassion or pity in the hearts of Ramsay or Euron? 

Any sign of compassion/pity from Euron? Theres this (its not great)

Quote

The serving wenches wore fine woolens and plush velvets, the Lord Captain did not fail to note. He took them for scullions dressed up in the clothes of Lady Hewett and her ladies, until Hotho told him they were Lady Hewett and her ladies. It amused the Crow's Eye to make them wait and pour. There were eight of them: her ladyship herself, still handsome though grown somewhat stout, and seven younger women aged from twenty-five to ten, her daughters and good-daughters.

Lord Hewett himself sat in his accustomed place upon the dais, dressed in all his heraldic finery. His arms and legs had been tied to his chair, and a huge white radish shoved between his teeth so he could not speak . . . though he could see and hear. The Crow's Eye had claimed the place of honor at his lordship's right hand.

A pretty, buxom girl of seventeen or eighteen years was in his lap, barefoot and disheveled, her arms around his neck. "Who is that?" Victarion asked the men around him. "His lordship's bastard daughter," laughed Hotho. "Before Euron took the castle, she was made to wait at table on the rest and take her own meals with the servants."

Vic thinks its for shame, which it is , but perhaps theres a sign of compassion too, for the daughter who was treated like the help

Edited by Hugorfonics

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Posted (edited)

There seem to be two decent Boltons in Domeric Bolton about whom we know enough to know he was a good man and in Barba Bolton from FaB who at least made a very compassionate plea when she was presented to King Aegon III.

Considering that Ramsay fell under Roose's direct influence only very late in life and considering that Domeric turned out to be well despite being Roose's son it is very odd that Ramsay has as shitty as a character as he has. It seems to have nothing to do with his upbringing.

The same also goes for Euron Greyjoy. Balon, Aeron, Victarion were also raised by Lord Quellon, yet only Euron turned out to be the mad psychopath that he is - and we do know that Euron was basically as worse as he is when he was still a young child.

Edited by Lord Varys

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11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

My father taught me to hold doors for the elderly, Rams' father taught him a flayed man has no secrets.

:lmao:

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11 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Any sign of compassion/pity from Euron? Theres this (its not great)

Vic thinks its for shame, which it is , but perhaps theres a sign of compassion too, for the daughter who was treated like the help

Poetic justice? If her fate in Winds were different...

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The only character who comes close to "evil" IMO is Tywin. He was raised by a largely benevolent father and suffers from no mental defect that I can see, and yet he makes numerous conscious decisions to inflict death and misery on untold number of people with the sole purpose of fulfilling his own self-serving interests.

With characters like Euron and/or Ramsay (and Joffrey and Gregor), we have at least the possibility of a mental defect or improper upbringing to account for what they are doing now. But with Tywin we don't. He's just a really bad guy who has committed more atrocities against more people than all these others combined.

And by this criteria, Dany is on the way to becoming evil as well, but the jury is still out on her.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that Ramsay fell under Roose's direct influence only very late in life and considering that Domeric turned out to be well despite being Roose's son it is very odd that Ramsay has as shitty as a character as he has. It seems to have nothing to do with his upbringing.

But we don't know much or anything about his upbringing do we? How did his mother raise him? It could be her influence that corrupted him. 

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