Need Help!!!

[Braeden32]

How was Sansa made aware that someone had burned down Winterfell?

[rotting sea cow]

Welcome to the forum

1.- Please make the title more descriptive. I really thought you were in some kind of emergency.

2.- There is a thread for small questions https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/153070-small-questions-v-10106/

3.- I've no idea. Tyrion learns in ACOK that Theon took Winterfell and later that he "killed" Bran and Rickon. It is possible that the news started to spread. Otherwise, maybe Tyrion told her after their weeding or the Tyrells before that or Littlefinger after her escape. 

[Megorova]

ASOS, Sansa VI:

"You look distraught. Did you think we were making for Winterfell, sweetling? Winterfell has been taken, burned, and sacked. All those you knew and loved are dead. What northmen who have not fallen to the ironmen are warring amongst themselves. Even the Wall is under attack. Winterfell was the home of your childhood, Sansa, but you are no longer a child. You're a woman grown, and you need to make your own home."

Littlefinger was the one who said to Sansa what happened at Winterfell. Tyrion didn't told her.

[John Suburbs]

On 7/31/2019 at 8:23 AM, Megorova said:

ASOS, Sansa VI:

"You look distraught. Did you think we were making for Winterfell, sweetling? Winterfell has been taken, burned, and sacked. All those you knew and loved are dead. What northmen who have not fallen to the ironmen are warring amongst themselves. Even the Wall is under attack. Winterfell was the home of your childhood, Sansa, but you are no longer a child. You're a woman grown, and you need to make your own home."

Littlefinger was the one who said to Sansa what happened at Winterfell. Tyrion didn't told her.

I don't read this as Sansa learning this for the first time. It sounds more like he is pointing out things she already knows to explain why she cannot go back to Winterfell. The castle fell some time ago -- about the same time as the Battle on the Blackwater -- and this is pretty big news, so it should have been common knowledge even before Sansa married Tyrion. 

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The castle fell some time ago -- about the same time as the Battle on the Blackwater -- and this is pretty big news, so it should have been common knowledge even before Sansa married Tyrion. 

In ASOS, Chapter 6, Olenna said to Sansa - "We are sorry for your losses.", and in Chapter 16 Sansa thought - "Sansa had grown up with three brothers. She never thought to have a claim, but with Bran and Rickon dead", so she knew, that they were dead, even before her escape after the Purple Wedding. Though, in all of her chapters in that book, she thought so little about her family, she seems so dumb and shallow, that I'm not so sure, that before LF told it to her directly, that "Winterfell has been taken, burned, and sacked.", she was aware in what state Winterfell was.

She knew, that her brothers were dead, but she still thought, that she is going back to Winterfell. Apparently, she was that stupid (Sorry to her fans). Littlefinger had to either explain it to her for the first time, that Winterfell is ruined, because, when someone else before said to her, what happened to her brothers, she didn't realised, what it meant for Winterfell's condition; or LF had to repeat this information to her, again, and this time to specifically clarify, that going to Winterfell was never an option, because Winterfell was ruined, when her brothers were killed.

So, either she knew about death of her brothers, but not about Winterfell's burning, or she knew everything, but was too stupid to remember both elements - that her brothers are dead, and that Winterfell is ruined.

[The hairy bear]

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

So, either she knew about death of her brothers, but not about Winterfell's burning, or she knew everything, but was too stupid to remember both elements - that her brothers are dead, and that Winterfell is ruined.

Or she is clever enough to realize that Winterfell is a stone castle that has stood for millennia and surely has survived many fires before. Eight year old Bran also realized it: "The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken."

[Braeden32]

I seem to think, at least in the show, Littlefinger told Sansa about the desolation of Winterfell, because prior to her leaving King's Landing, she always seemed to be under the impression that she was going home. I could not have been Tyrion, because when he informed Sansa about the Red Wedding, she left him midsentence to go "pray." So my bet is on Littlefinger. 

[Megorova]

18 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Or she is clever enough to realize that Winterfell is a stone castle that has stood for millennia and surely has survived many fires before.

Though, to make it a livable place again, what is required is repairs, manual labour, people who will work on those repairs, and time. So, did she expected, that Boltons (or Theon, who supposedly went back to Iron Islands <- that's what Boltons said to Starks), that took part in Robb's and Cat's murder, will rebuild Winterfell, and then they will just go away, and leave the castle for Sansa? Of course not.

Or, maybe, because it's Sansa, it's exactly what she thought, that they will, for whatever unexplainable reason, rebuil Winterfell, just to leave it vacant afterwards, thus, she will be able to go there. How could she think, before Littlefinger spelled it out for her, that Winterfell is burned and taken, that where they are going is Winterfell? She's Sansa, that's how. Not very bright. In ASOIAF there's all sorts of characters, smart and not so, brave and cowards, beautiful and ugly, all varieties. And Sansa's intelligence is not her strong side, her most defining quality is her good looks.

[The hairy bear]

I don't think your assessment of Sansa, or Winterfell's situation, is fair.

We see in ADWD that Winterfell is habitable. Functioning doors and beds are described. All the walls and most of the towers still stand. The Godswood is untouched. It is undoubtedly not the most comfortable place to live right now, but there's nothing strange that a twelve year old girl wishes to return home (even if it's devastated) instead of going to an unknown place with no friends (specially after the King's Landing experience).

Because, let's not forget, Sansa is twelve.

[Megorova]

29 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

Because, let's not forget, Sansa is twelve.

And Arya at that time was 9. Egg, when he was first introduced in The Hedge Knight, was also 9. Compare them to 12yo Sansa, and they both are much smarter, braver, and selfless than she is.

33 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I don't think your assessment of Sansa, or Winterfell's situation, is fair.

She's dumb. Dumb, dumb, dumb. She's like a goldfish, or a butterfly - beautiful and brainless. Example, ASOS, 6:

"When the appointed night arrived, another of the Kingsguard came for her, a man as different from Sandor Clegane as… well, as a flower from a dog. The sight of Ser Loras Tyrell standing on her threshold made Sansa’s heart beat a little faster. This was the first time she had been so close to him since he had returned to King’s Landing, leading the vanguard of his father’s host. For a moment she did not know what to say. “Ser Loras,” she finally managed, “you… you look so lovely.”

He gave her a puzzled smile. “My lady is too kind. And beautiful besides. My sister awaits you eagerly.”

“I have so looked forward to our supper.”

“As has Margaery, and my lady grandmother as well.” He took her arm and led her toward the steps.

“Your grandmother?” Sansa was finding it hard to walk and talk and think all at the same time ( that girl ), with Ser Loras touching her arm."

"Sansa reddened. Any fool would have realized that no woman would be happy about being called “the Queen of Thorns.” Maybe I truly am as stupid as Cersei Lannister says. Desperately she tried to think of something clever and charming to say to him, but her wits had deserted her. She almost told him how beautiful he was, until she remembered that she’d already done that. (<- that was like 2 minutes ago, and she has already forgotten, that she already complimented him)"

"He’s no boy, though, he’s a man grown, a knight of the Kingsguard. She thought he looked even finer in white than in the greens and golds of House Tyrell. The only spot of color on him now was the brooch that clasped his cloak; the rose of Highgarden wrought in soft yellow gold, nestled in a bed of delicate green jade leaves."

" “To see you safely wed, child,” the old woman said, as Butterbumps bellowed out the old, old song, “to my grandson.”

Wed to Ser Loras, oh… Sansa’s breath caught in her throat. She remembered Ser Loras in his sparkling sapphire armor, tossing her a rose. Ser Loras in white silk, so pure, innocent, beautiful. The dimples at the corner of his mouth when he smiled. The sweetness of his laugh, the warmth of his hand. She could only imagine what it would be like to pull up his tunic and caress the smooth skin underneath, to stand on her toes and kiss him, to run her fingers through those thick brown curls and drown in his deep brown eyes. A flush crept up her neck.

“OH, I’M A MAID, AND I’M PURE AND FAIR! I’LL NEVER DANCE WITH A HAIRY BEAR! A BEAR! A BEAR! I’LL NEVER DANCE WITH A HAIRY BEAR!”

“Would you like that, Sansa?” asked Margaery. “I’ve never had a sister, only brothers. Oh, please say yes, please say that you will consent to marry my brother.”

The words came tumbling out of her. “Yes. I will. I would like that more than anything. To wed Ser Loras, to love him…”

“Loras?” Lady Olenna sounded annoyed. “Don’t be foolish, child. Kingsguard never wed. Didn’t they teach you anything in Winterfell? We were speaking of my grandson Willas. He is a bit old for you, to be sure, but a dear boy for all that. Not the least bit oafish, and heir to Highgarden besides.” "

 

Sansa is aware, that Loras is a Kingsguard. And still she thought, that she will marry him. Is it possible to be more dumb/ignorant than that? By that point in time, which was shortly prior Purple Wedding, Sansa has already spent at Red Keep more than a year. And she still doesn't know, that Kingsguards don't wed. Or she knows, but forgets. Or she can't add 1 and 1 together, and figure out that it = 2.

1(a). Kingsguards don't wed + 1(b) Loras is a Kingsguard = 2. She's not going to marry with Loras.

Though when Sansa uses her brain, 1+1=0. She's not bright. That's a fact. And GRRM also frequently adds into the text elements (like in that text above), to show that Sansa's intelligence, is not her strong point.

[John Suburbs]

20 hours ago, Megorova said:

So, either she knew about death of her brothers, but not about Winterfell's burning, or she knew everything, but was too stupid to remember both elements - that her brothers are dead, and that Winterfell is ruined.

I'm leaning toward the latter: she knows Winterfell is ruined as well. She just didn't connect this to the idea that a secret person promising to take her "home" no longer meant Winterfell. Chalk it up to wishful thinking.

[Gingin]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

Sansa is aware, that Loras is a Kingsguard. And still she thought, that she will marry him. Is it possible to be more dumb/ignorant than that? By that point in time, which was shortly prior Purple Wedding, Sansa has already spent at Red Keep more than a year. And she still doesn't know, that Kingsguards don't wed. Or she knows, but forgets. Or she can't add 1 and 1 together, and figure out that it = 2.

1(a). Kingsguards don't wed + 1(b) Loras is a Kingsguard = 2. She's not going to marry with Loras.

Well, Loras is very attractive and she’s a naïve twelve-year-old girl who likes to dream. She’s no Arya. Besides, she didn’t know about Willas. She probably dreamt that Loras could have been dismissed in order to marry her, breaking tradition like Barristan Selmy (she witnessed to his dismissal).

[Springwatch]

On 8/2/2019 at 10:15 AM, Megorova said:

Though, to make it a livable place again, what is required is repairs, manual labour, people who will work on those repairs, and time. So, did she expected, that Boltons (or Theon, who supposedly went back to Iron Islands <- that's what Boltons said to Starks), that took part in Robb's and Cat's murder, will rebuild Winterfell, and then they will just go away, and leave the castle for Sansa? Of course not.

Or, maybe, because it's Sansa, it's exactly what she thought, that they will, for whatever unexplainable reason, rebuil Winterfell, just to leave it vacant afterwards, thus, she will be able to go there. How could she think, before Littlefinger spelled it out for her, that Winterfell is burned and taken, that where they are going is Winterfell? She's Sansa, that's how. Not very bright. In ASOIAF there's all sorts of characters, smart and not so, brave and cowards, beautiful and ugly, all varieties. And Sansa's intelligence is not her strong side, her most defining quality is her good looks.

You can't possibly think this is a strong argument. Or do you?

Strong prejudgments are guaranteed to lead to a lot of errors. And dead ends. Like this one! From all I've seen on this forum, no-one who has decided a character is stupid can think any further than that.

It doesn't matter how we rate a character what we think; what's important is the author's ideas for that character: the strengths and weaknesses he gave them, the opportunities, and the potential for change. He doesn't write one-dimensional characters, and that includes Sansa.

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, Springwatch said:

It doesn't matter how we rate a character what we think; what's important is the author's ideas for that character: the strengths and weaknesses he gave them, the opportunities, and the potential for change. He doesn't write one-dimensional characters, and that includes Sansa.

I didn't said, that Sansa is one-dimentional, I said that she is dumb. And shallow, and selfcentered. And that's the way GRRM wrote her. You don't agree that GRRM wrote Sansa as a dumb, shallow and selfcentered character, even though there's this? ->

- in previous posts I wrote a quote from ASOS - even though Sansa was aware, that Loras is a Kingsguard, and even though she had spend over a year at Red Keep, she thought, that getting married with Loras, is an option, even though it wasn't, because he's a Kingsguard, and they don't wed <- is it even possible to be more ignorant than that?;

- "The ladder to the forecastle was steep and splintery, so Sansa accepted a hand up from Lothor Brune. Ser Lothor, she had to remind herself; the man had been knighted for his valor in the Battle of the Blackwater. Though no proper knight would wear those patched brown breeches and scuffed boots, nor that cracked and water-stained leather jerkin." - in Sansa's opinion a proper knight, is someone, who is dressed like Loras, or dressed in new, clean, colorfull, rich clothes, not in what Lothor was wearing. In her opinion, knighthood is mostly defined by clothes and looks, she is basing, whether someone is a proper knight, or not a proper knight, not based on his/their behaviour, or his/their actions. In her opinion, what makes a knight a proper knight, is a knightly clothes. And that's shallow.

Same as this (AGOT 44) - "Her father’s decision still bewildered her. When the Knight of Flowers had spoken up, she’d been sure she was about to see one of Old Nan’s stories come to life. Ser Gregor was the monster and Ser Loras the true hero who would slay him. He even looked a true hero, so slim and beautiful, with golden roses around his slender waist and his rich brown hair tumbling down into his eyes. And then Father had refused him! It had upset her more than she could tell." - in her opinion, the most suitable person, to deal with the Mountain, was the most beautiful knight, because in her opinion, what makes someone a hero and capable, is his looks.

"“Lord Beric is as much a hero as Ser Loras. He’s ever so brave and gallant. ” “I suppose,” Sansa said doubtfully. Beric Dondarrion was handsome enough, but he was awfully old, almost twenty-two; the Knight of Flowers would have been much better. Of course, Jeyne had been in love with Lord Beric ever since she had first glimpsed him in the lists. Sansa thought she was being silly; Jeyne was only a steward’s daughter, after all, and no matter how much she mooned after him, Lord Beric would never look at someone so far beneath him, even if she hadn’t been half his age." - that girl besides evaluating other people, mostly based on their looks, she thinks, that other people are also, as shallow as she is.

"In the songs, the knights never killed magical beasts, they just went up to them and touched them and did them no harm, but she knew Joffrey liked hunting, especially the killing part. Only animals, though. Sansa was certain her prince had no part in murdering Jory and those other poor men; that had been his wicked uncle, the Kingslayer. She knew her father was still angry about that, but it wasn’t fair to blame Joff. That would be like blaming her for something that Arya had done." <- OMG!

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Is she really 11(12)? She thinks like she's 2, and is living in her own world, that is a pink buble, filled with pink ponies, beautiful flowers, singing birds, gallant knights, charming princes, pretty dresses, and this world is rotating around her. And that's the way GRRM wrote her, he made her to be this sort of character - pretty little princess with air in her head. Though, I agree with you, that she did grew a bit after Joff's death, she did became a bit smarter, since her arrival to The Vale.

[Springwatch]

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

I didn't said, that Sansa is one-dimentional, I said that she is dumb. And shallow, and selfcentered.

She's not dumb. She's a child (Myrcella says, we are children). So, to a degree, yes she's shallow and self-centred. So is Arya, who always ruins everything from Sansa's pov. They hadn't developed empathy for each others needs and differences, but they will. Arya was naive too, living in a world of games and let's-pretend, just as Sansa lived in a world of dreams. It was great fan service to have Arya openly disrespect the royals; openly prefer the company of a butcher's boy - very modern, very tropey even - but the game of thrones doesn't work like that. She was ignorant, uninterested and in danger (totally Ned's fault, of course).

Quote

And that's the way GRRM wrote her. You don't agree that GRRM wrote Sansa as a dumb, shallow and selfcentered character, even though there's this? ->

He wrote her to be disliked. Tummy flutters, and 'ever so's', and fussing with her hair, and falling in love with totally the wrong people. Back to tropes again. In the first scenes, the wholly lovable heroic Arya is bullied by her worthless elder sister. Or is she? GRRM sets up the tropes, then he cleverly undermines them. Early Sansa is annoying, and in opposition to our hero Arya, and maybe a different author would have given Arya all the virtues and Sansa only faults. GRRM likes shades of grey.

Quote

- in previous posts I wrote a quote from ASOS - even though Sansa was aware, that Loras is a Kingsguard, and even though she had spend over a year at Red Keep, she thought, that getting married with Loras, is an option, even though it wasn't, because he's a Kingsguard, and they don't wed <- is it even possible to be more ignorant than that?;

If Sansa is stupid and ignorant here, then so is Tywin. Anyway, it's interesting in itself that we are seeing crazy levels of innovation after hundreds and hundreds of years of tradition and stability.

• Statues are reserved for the tombs of Stark Lords - but Lyanna gets one.
• Families hold on to their ancestral VS swords - but the Mormonts just give theirs away.
• Kingsguard are knights - but Sandor isn't.
• Kingsguard serve for life - but Barristan doesn't.
• Night's Watchmen serve for life - but Jon doesn't have to, in Robb's opinion.
• The IT passes to the male heir - but the Dornish think they can change all that.
• etc

6 hours ago, Megorova said:

- "The ladder to the forecastle was steep and splintery, so Sansa accepted a hand up from Lothor Brune. Ser Lothor, she had to remind herself; the man had been knighted for his valor in the Battle of the Blackwater. Though no proper knight would wear those patched brown breeches and scuffed boots, nor that cracked and water-stained leather jerkin." - in Sansa's opinion a proper knight, is someone, who is dressed like Loras, or dressed in new, clean, colorfull, rich clothes, not in what Lothor was wearing. In her opinion, knighthood is mostly defined by clothes and looks, she is basing, whether someone is a proper knight, or not a proper knight, not based on his/their behaviour, or his/their actions. In her opinion, what makes a knight a proper knight, is a knightly clothes. And that's shallow.

Same as this (AGOT 44) - "Her father’s decision still bewildered her. When the Knight of Flowers had spoken up, she’d been sure she was about to see one of Old Nan’s stories come to life. Ser Gregor was the monster and Ser Loras the true hero who would slay him. He even looked a true hero, so slim and beautiful, with golden roses around his slender waist and his rich brown hair tumbling down into his eyes. And then Father had refused him! It had upset her more than she could tell." - in her opinion, the most suitable person, to deal with the Mountain, was the most beautiful knight, because in her opinion, what makes someone a hero and capable, is his looks.

All the Stark children learned about knights from Old Nan's stories. All of them are expecting to meet heroes. Even Jon is expecting the Watchmen to be like that - knights of the Wall. Bran wants to be Symeon Star-Eyes. And Sansa wants Loras to makes the legends real too. So what. Over time she learns to distrust charm, love, beauty and the appearance of goodness. She learns to distrust knights - at one point she says something like, the Hound hates knights; I hate them too. She does learn to value and respect Lothor Brune.  What more do you want?

Quote

"“Lord Beric is as much a hero as Ser Loras. He’s ever so brave and gallant. ” “I suppose,” Sansa said doubtfully. Beric Dondarrion was handsome enough, but he was awfully old, almost twenty-two; the Knight of Flowers would have been much better. Of course, Jeyne had been in love with Lord Beric ever since she had first glimpsed him in the lists. Sansa thought she was being silly; Jeyne was only a steward’s daughter, after all, and no matter how much she mooned after him, Lord Beric would never look at someone so far beneath him, even if she hadn’t been half his age." - that girl besides evaluating other people, mostly based on their looks, she thinks, that other people are also, as shallow as she is.

Tough, isn't it? Nowadays we like to hear that rank doesn't matter, but back in history it mattered a lot, a lot. It's the game of thrones come back to bite you again. Beric is not interested in Jeyne, and Mya's knight didn't marry her either. This is one point where Sansa shows hard-headed realism, something she must have picked up from Mordane and Cat. Cat says something very similar, iirc.

Quote

"In the songs, the knights never killed magical beasts, they just went up to them and touched them and did them no harm, but she knew Joffrey liked hunting, especially the killing part. Only animals, though. Sansa was certain her prince had no part in murdering Jory and those other poor men; that had been his wicked uncle, the Kingslayer. She knew her father was still angry about that, but it wasn’t fair to blame Joff. That would be like blaming her for something that Arya had done." <- OMG!

OMG, yes. That is, I really don't believe Joff had any influence on Jaime's attack on Ned and Jory. But there were definitely OMG moments. But this is the first book. She's eleven, a child behaving like a child, and she doesn't seem to be getting much guidance from Ned, or anyone.

Quote

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Is she really 11(12)? She thinks like she's 2, and is living in her own world, that is a pink buble, filled with pink ponies, beautiful flowers, singing birds, gallant knights, charming princes, pretty dresses, and this world is rotating around her. And that's the way GRRM wrote her, he made her to be this sort of character - pretty little princess with air in her head. Though, I agree with you, that she did grew a bit after Joff's death, she did became a bit smarter, since her arrival to The Vale.

GRRM wrote her this way. He put loads of work in this character, and gave her masses of space in the books. Did he really do all that work just to say: pretty little princess with air in her head? I don't think so! Sansa and Arya are as different as sun and moon. Would you discard the moon? One has words and one has swords. Soft power and hard power. They are a complementary pair, and the story needs them both.