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Posted (edited)
On 8/2/2019 at 3:24 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Wow, the ranger from the north is the perfect King destined to save the realm. Who’d have thought. 

Dany having a child, yes; if she had one. That could be an emotionally satisfying conclusion. With Jon, our most likely candidate? A “man” who’s already said no to love once? Who is realistically only going to have one book, if that, to create what’s meant to be the central romance? I don’t buy it. No if she had a child it would have to be a big deal and not just fan service for Jon fans so that he gets to have his way with Dany.

I cant for the life of me understand the admiration Jon gets. iMO at best he’s a bland cookie cutter and at worst he’s outright offensive. He’s never taken actual responsibility for his screw ups and is a vehicle for the author to push his love vs duty, thinly veiled bros before hos rubbish. I felt nothing when he got stabbed to be honest.

I don't believe that Jon will father Daenerys's child. 

Oh, and the characters are the George's. What we think of them doesn't come into it. 

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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23 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

[...] not to trust any of them [...] They were all going to play the man card and expected the woman to fall in line, with no regard to what she wants or needs.

A sorcerer woman counseling a girl with magical blood and dragons.

I have never before considered Quaithe in a "woman before sorcerer" angle, and this has set some thoughts in motion.

Does Quaithe see herself in Daenerys? Or a daughter she never had? Or does she see Daenerys as an avenger of underpowered women? Is there any female archetype that can be associated with Quaithe? Are there any typically male archetypes that Quaithe could be filling (and / or subverting)?

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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

If the purpose of Danys arc is that “you should have stepped aside for the real heroes” and “we need a safe pair of hands not a bloody saviour”; I don’t see how George does that without appearing hypocritical. How is Jon taking Wildlings and Giants to Winterfell to purge the Bolton’s and Freys not morally suspect? I am doubting Jon is going to ever have a Mirri Maz Dur character hold him to account for stepping on the little people; same as his brother. 

The purpose of Dany’s arc is: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. She is going to be a destructive force in the end and her last chapter in ADWD is the beginning of her descent into merciless destruction. She’s already displayed glimpses of this but after her awakening and realization that dragons plant no trees, we are going to see destruction by her on a much larger scale. All your Jon hate posts harp on his failings. Well, none of Jon’s “failures” come close to Astapor, you know the place Dany liberated. Quentyn describes it as hell. An entire city reduced to rubble. I suspect more cities will succumb to the fate of Astapor as Dany continues her conquests and quest to be liberator.

As to your hope that Dany will be instrumental in defeating the WWs, we’ll just have to wait and see. She’s still miles away and has no inkling of the threat in the North, whereas most of Jon and Bran’s arcs have been about defeating the WWs. 

Edited by teej6

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On 7/31/2019 at 2:10 PM, BlackDread12 said:

Who is Quaithe? And why she is helping Dany?

If you do a search on this site, I’m sure you’ll find many earlier posts theorizing on the identity of Quaithe. I’m not going to speculate on who she is but I suspect her motives are not entirely in Dany’s best interest. So far, all she’s told Dany has only increased Dany’s distrust and suspicions. You know which other recent character in the story was distrustful and suspicious about things/people around him? Aerys.

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1 hour ago, teej6 said:

The purpose of Dany’s arc is: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. She is going to be a destructive force in the end and her last chapter in ADWD is the beginning of her descent into merciless destruction. She’s already displayed glimpses of this but after her awakening and realization that dragons plant no trees, we are going to see destruction by her on a much larger scale. All your Jon hate posts harp on his failings. Well, none of Jon’s “failures” come close to Astapor, you know the place Dany liberated. Quentyn describes it as hell. An entire city reduced to rubble. I suspect more cities will succumb to the fate of Astapor as Dany continues her conquests and quest to be liberator.

As to your hope that Dany will be instrumental in defeating the WWs, we’ll just have to wait and see. She’s still miles away and has no inkling of the threat in the North, whereas most of Jon and Bran’s arcs have been about defeating the WWs. 

 

Oh but Jon and Bran can have good intentions and save the world without going mad with power? Kind of undercuts the point as a male reader if the default characters reinforce that belief so completely. 

Jon condemned the Wildlings to near genocide when he prevented them from crossing the wall in Storm. It was too late by the time he tried to move them. That there are more people at Astapor is a coincidence of the story rather than a sincere look at his intentions.

I harp on his failings because people ignore them and are hypocrites for confusing scale with intent. They tell me he’s this perfect Uber King with his pure Stark blood and untainted Northern upbringing. That’s he’s a good man because he chooses duty over love. It’s obnoxious. Thorne should have gone for the head.

Because it would be a better story if Dany overcomes her inner Daemons. People talk as if nobody has ever made the “road to hell” argument or been edgy enough to have a character break bad. It’s a waste of an original and good character. All to elevate two of his worst and most trite characters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

In British heraldry Quatherine means a "red ship in full sail"--Quaithe's mask is red wood, and her mask is made of starlight, and her voice is the whisperings of stars.  Quaithe is the red comet.

The comet is shierak qiya, the Bleeding Star.  Sierra Seastar (seastar = starfish = asteroid) --star seastar/asteroid?  ETA looked up Dothraki phrases, shierak means star.

I just rewatched the Fifth Element, and in that there is a genetically engineered female who defeats a black planet (that was created by an eclipse) by shooting a beam of light off the surface of the Earth.  In George's other stories people with Valyrian looks are genetically engineered (Glass Flower and Star Lady),

Dany's thinks, "If I flew high enough, I could even see the Seven Kingdoms, and reach up and touch the comet. "

In one of her Quaithe visions: "She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear."

I am starting to think Dany is going to warg a comet and destroy a black planet.  "to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

Mirri tells Dany she will be with Drogo again when the sun rises in the west, which I think refers to a weirwood comet launching in the West. 

Edited by By Odin's Beard

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8 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

In British heraldry Quatherine means a "red ship in full sail"--Quaithe's mask is red wood, and her mask is made of starlight, and her voice is the whisperings of stars.  Quaithe is the red comet.

The comet is shierak qiya, the Bleeding Star.  Sierra Seastar (seastar = starfish = asteroid) --star seastar/asteroid?  ETA looked up Dothraki phrases, shierak means star.

I just rewatched the Fifth Element, and in that there is a genetically engineered female who defeats a black planet (that was created by an eclipse) by shooting a beam of light off the surface of the Earth.  In George's other stories people with Valyrian looks are genetically engineered (Glass Flower and Star Lady),

Dany's thinks, "If I flew high enough, I could even see the Seven Kingdoms, and reach up and touch the comet. "

In one of her Quaithe visions: "She dreamed. All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear."

I am starting to think Dany is going to warg a comet and destroy a black planet.  "to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

Mirri tells Dany she will be with Drogo again when the sun rises in the west, which I think refers to a weirwood comet launching in the West. 

 

Spoiler

Euron talks in his chapter about how he thinks he can become a God and that they are living the end of days when the Old Gods will die. 

The quote you have above of Dany rising up into the stars is suggestive of some kind of ascendency. Or Death.

George has done a very good job of keeping you guessing as to how magical the world is. It could just be hallucinations and delusions of grandeur from a drug. Plus because he’s drawing on Cthulhu mythos that these are cosmic forces beyond human comprehension makes it even more difficult. He’s keeping his cards close to his chest.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I wonder if Quaithe is originally from Asshai or went there at some point to study (like Marwyn, Melisandre and MMD);  and if she is concealing her past and her origins.  What strikes me about Quaithe is the similarity between her wooden mask covered in red lacquer and the device on the shield of the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"No one knew," said Meera, "but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face."

 

 No, I'm not suggesting this is Lyanna.  But someone else originally from Westeros perhaps?  I think an argument could be made that she is Shierra Seastar and her association with Bloodraven, now a greenseer could account for her choice of mask.  She would be very old though unless she has some sorcery to keep her young. Those are the rumors about her.  lol  Someone who studies sorcery might be inclined to travel to Asshai to learn more.

"star of the sea" is appropos since when Dany sees her; her mask is full of stars.

 

Edited by LynnS

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On 8/2/2019 at 7:33 AM, Tyrion1991 said:

 

In her defence, IF her goal is to stop the Others and RESTORE BALANCE to Ice and Fire to save humanity; a few thugs in Mereen aren’t that important.

Its hard to tell. Obviously it’s very much a fantasy trope that mystics have to give cryptic advice rather than straight forward points, but you have to wonder why Quiathe won’t tell Dany “dead people, lots of them; crazy Ice Elves. Go! Go! Do it now!”

So I am assuming she needs things to happen in a certain order and is worried about upsetting that by telling Dany too much or distracting her.

Or she’s a Cthulhu cult leader trying to lead the worlds saviour astray.

Perhaps Westeros is fated to die, for the greater good.  Trying to save it is a waste of time because climate change cannot be controlled.  Building a new civilization in Essos that doesn't have slavery is a battle that can be won.

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On 8/2/2019 at 3:24 PM, Tyrion1991 said:

No if she had a child it would have to be a big deal and not just fan service for Jon fans so that he gets to have his way with Dany.

Granted, I don't speak for all of us Jon fans, and I don't know all of Jon's fans either... but out of the many I do know, not a single one wants Jon to hook up w/ Dany and make incest babies. :dunno:

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

Granted, I don't speak for all of us Jon fans, and I don't know all of Jon's fans either... but out of the many I do know, not a single one wants Jon to hook up w/ Dany and make incest babies. :dunno:

 

Why do you even like him? 

Edited by Tyrion1991

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Posted (edited)

I think Quaithe is like the random doom prophecy ol' guy from the random horror movie. Y'know, like this one;

 

Edited by Jon Fossoway

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On 7/31/2019 at 2:10 PM, BlackDread12 said:

Who is Quaithe? And why she is helping Dany?

 

On 7/31/2019 at 8:00 PM, U. B. Cool said:

Fire And Blood answered that question.  She is helping Daenerys Targaryen because she serves the light.  She took her ship beyond where anyone else has and she knows a lot.  That she is helping Daenerys means Quaithe is one of the protagonists because she helps the hero.

 

On 8/1/2019 at 5:25 AM, BlackDread12 said:

I don't think that she is intentionally making her paranoid. Quentyn and others want to associate (marry) with her only because she has dragons. Quaithe certainly wants Dany to have all the power solely to herself. 

 

 

This is because Daenerys Targaryen is the only one who can be trusted to have the power of three dragons.  Think about what somebody like Arya would do with dragons.  Nothing good for sure.  She would use these wonderful dragons to exact revenge against those who beat up on the Starks.  All of the Starks put together is not worthy of needing a dragon to avenge.  The dragons are much bigger and more epic than the Stark family.  What would Jon do?  He would burn the Dreadfort to the ground even knowing those Bolton men could be helpful.  Stannis would do the same.  Daenerys will use her dragons to help the slaves win their freedom.  If there is a cause worthy of dragons and the Unsullied this is it.  Quaithe knows this silver-haired girl is very important.  

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16 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Granted, I don't speak for all of us Jon fans, and I don't know all of Jon's fans either... but out of the many I do know, not a single one wants Jon to hook up w/ Dany and make incest babies. :dunno:

I'm Jon's fan, and I want him to hook up with Dany and make incest babies. Furthermore, I think that their child should be a girl, for that girl later to get married with Rhaego, and restart Targaryen dynasty.

 

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3 hours ago, Megorova said:

I'm Jon's fan, and I want him to hook up with Dany and make incest babies. Furthermore, I think that their child should be a girl, for that girl later to get married with Rhaego, and restart Targaryen dynasty.

 

Well, I don’t know you. The Jon fans I do know aren’t too keen on the idea of magic incest babies, let alone magic incest babies marrying dead foetuses. 

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On 8/6/2019 at 4:26 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Granted, I don't speak for all of us Jon fans, and I don't know all of Jon's fans either... but out of the many I do know, not a single one wants Jon to hook up w/ Dany and make incest babies. :dunno:

Hear Hear! I’m a Jon fan and I most definitely don’t want him to hook up with Dany or make babies with her. I’d rather have Jon be turned off by her sense of entitlement and righteousness.

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On 8/6/2019 at 4:26 PM, kissdbyfire said:

Granted, I don't speak for all of us Jon fans, and I don't know all of Jon's fans either... but out of the many I do know, not a single one wants Jon to hook up w/ Dany and make incest babies. :dunno:

I second this. I’m not even a super mega Jon fan as some are, but there are no magic incest babies in his future. I think some picked up different books from a different section of the store. GRRM isn’t writing incest as winning Disney fantasy :lol:

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Quaithe is Quaithe. She is a guide for Dany to follow as she unravels puzzles. 

For any readers of GRRM’s other works, she is Jala Wo of Wo and Shade in Sandkings. 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/4/2019 at 7:19 AM, teej6 said:

The purpose of Dany’s arc is: the road to hell is paved with good intentions. She is going to be a destructive force in the end and her last chapter in ADWD is the beginning of her descent into merciless destruction. She’s already displayed glimpses of this but after her awakening and realization that dragons plant no trees, we are going to see destruction by her on a much larger scale. All your Jon hate posts harp on his failings. Well, none of Jon’s “failures” come close to Astapor, you know the place Dany liberated. Quentyn describes it as hell. An entire city reduced to rubble. I suspect more cities will succumb to the fate of Astapor as Dany continues her conquests and quest to be liberator.

As to your hope that Dany will be instrumental in defeating the WWs, we’ll just have to wait and see. She’s still miles away and has no inkling of the threat in the North, whereas most of Jon and Bran’s arcs have been about defeating the WWs. 

It is. Dany's the venomous dragon of Saint George's myth (the basic root of Serwyn of the Mirror Shield legend). Everything she touches in pursuit of power, every land she crosses, every group she associates with, no matter how she may want to protect them or liberate them or save them... it all becomes an immense horror show: from the attack to the Lhazareen, to Eroeh's fate; Astapor... And yes, even Dany herself thinks to herself that whatever she tries it all turns to dross. She manages to achieve peace in Meereen, but then Drogon shows up. Hell, she even sacrifices her own dragonseeds in the process. Meereen will go the same horrific route as Astapor did, just far slower: already started. Pale Mare is galloping through Meereen, and will be racing faster in tWoW. Selmy fears the blue graces are dead already from the pale mare. Viserion and Rhaegal have destroyed several of the pyramids. It's all slowly but surely starting to crumble. Unlike the "abomination we don't speak of here", Meereen will be a complete failure. So, far the only being she actually managed to "save" was Drogon. Everybody else she liberated to die for or because of her. 

I do think she abolishes slavery overall in Slaver's Bay. Taking Dothraki and biggest sellsword companies and destroying the slave-maker and slave-market cities Yunkai, Astapor, Meereen and Volantis will ensure that. All the others may want to buy slaves but without catchers and markets, that won't happen. 

Edited by sweetsunray

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