What was Tywin's original plan?

[Universal Sword Donor]

4 hours ago, McGuv19 said:

I don’t think Tywin started the war to save Tyrion, he just viewed as a slight on his family’s honour. Remember, during the Battle of the Green Fork he planned to sacrifice Tyrion and the clansmen.

Tywin was baiting the RL to attack him. Once the crown / Ned threw that plan in the garbage, Tywin did pretty much the only thing he could. I'm not convinced at all that Robert would have taken Ned's side, but Tywin having a few hostages and every strategic location secured in the RL would be a hell of a bargaining chip if Robert decided to call his banners.

[hodorisfaclessman]

On 8/6/2019 at 1:38 AM, EvanSol919 said:

So to briefly summarize - Catelyn captures Tyrion, Jaime flees KL after his confrontation with Ned, Tywin attacks the Riverlands and Robert is killed. But what if Robert hadn't died? What was Tywin's plan on how to deal with Robert, who wouldn't be too happy with Tywin's actions? Just have Tyrion released, make the Starks go back North and then return to Casterly Rock?

If robert was still alive hed still be married to tywins daughter so has some leverage there on top of considerable debt owed

[Corvo the Crow]

Not everything warrants it’s own thread, this could have just been asked in the small questions thread. Can’t quote it now but the plan was to draw out Ned with the raids and capture him for an exchange of hostages. Jaime’s fight with him left his leg injured, however so he sent Beric instead.

[The Fresh PtwP]

On 8/12/2019 at 5:00 AM, McGuv19 said:

I don’t think Tywin started the war to save Tyrion, he just viewed as a slight on his family’s honour. Remember, during the Battle of the Green Fork he planned to sacrifice Tyrion and the clansmen.

Tyrion volunteers to be in the vanguard.

Quote

Lord Tywin Lannister turned to his brother. "If my son's men will not obey his commands, perhaps the vanguard is not the place for him. No doubt he would be more comfortable in the rear, guarding our baggage train."

"Do me no kindnesses, Father," he said angrily. "If you have no other command to offer me, I'll lead your van."

Manipulated through the suggestion of cowardice but still volunteered.

[frenin]

On 8/7/2019 at 5:44 PM, Lion of the West said:

Robert was never a problem for Tywin.

The best way to predict someone's future behavior is to look at their past behavior, and whenever there has been a conflict between Stark and Lannister, Robert took the Lannister's side or chickened out. There is no reason to think that Robert would not go on the Lannister line this time as well.

Nor Tywin was when that happened, neither the situation is the same, Robert reacts always badly when his pride is wounded, being hitting Cersei when she insults him or threatening Ned when he resigned his office, even when his rage goes as soon as it comes, the first reaction is always a black rage, that's why Ned told Cersei about the incest and that's why everyone assumes Cersei and Jaime would be as good as dead had Robert ever found out, had Tywin actually acted against his King, broken the King's peace and kidnapped Ned under the Royal banner (the former being a very stupid far fetched assumption), Tywin would be screwed, because he'd be making Robert a fool in front of the entire Realm. That and the fact that breaking the King's Peace is actually illegal, that's why Tywin didn't do it until Robert was dead, had he been so sure, he would've showed the riverlords right away what  happens when you mess with him, it's not like the guy doesn't love exhibit his power and might.

Robert's and Ned's downfalls pretty much saved his and his family necks but a lot of lucky events saved Tywin during the three books he was alive.

[BlackLightning]

On 8/9/2019 at 4:23 PM, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Twyin could plan to have Robert killed (independently from Cersei) and saw a succesion crisis coming with Ned, Renly and Stannis as the biggest threats. Of course he didnt expect the incest thing to come out, so probably he expected more support from Stormlands. Tyrion is a Lannister so whatever he does or happens to him has an effect on the pride of house Lannister. He had the crown economically dependant on Castrely Rock, he had assembled a huge army, he had arranged to have the Arryn heir as a hostage (this could neutralize Lysa and Hoster). 

This.

[frenin]

On 8/9/2019 at 9:04 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Probably.  Tywin was the richest, most powerful guy.  He could stand up to Robert.  

He's also the most hated guy in all Westeros, if Robert decided to teach him a lesson, even the dornish would gladly partake.

Tywin can't possibly hope to stand up to Robert, just like he couldn't do it with Aerys, the very fact that Tywin only invaded the Riverlands once his grandson was on the Throne and Ned was seized shows how confident was Tywin on his sleeve.

[Lion of the West]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Nor Tywin was when that happened, neither the situation is the same, Robert reacts always badly when his pride is wounded, being hitting Cersei when she insults him or threatening Ned when he resigned his office, even when his rage goes as soon as it comes, the first reaction is always a black rage, that's why Ned told Cersei about the incest and that's why everyone assumes Cersei and Jaime would be as good as dead had Robert ever found out, had Tywin actually acted against his King, broken the King's peace and kidnapped Ned under the Royal banner (the former being a very stupid far fetched assumption), Tywin would be screwed, because he'd be making Robert a fool in front of the entire Realm. That and the fact that breaking the King's Peace is actually illegal, that's why Tywin didn't do it until Robert was dead, had he been so sure, he would've showed the riverlords right away what  happens when you mess with him, it's not like the guy doesn't love exhibit his power and might.

Robert's and Ned's downfalls pretty much saved his and his family necks but a lot of lucky events saved Tywin during the three books he was alive.

Problem is that Robert had no black rage when Jaime attacked Eddard in the street and killed Eddard's men. You'd think that the Demon of the Trident would have reacted with more vigor after that. But Robert did not. He chickened out and left the mess in Eddard's lap to get away from it by going out to hunt. If that didn't produce any "Watch out, Lannisters, its hammer time!" from Robert , why would Robert's reaction to this, which was also breaking the king's peace in the king's own city against his best friend, be more tame than his reaction if Eddard would be kidnapped out in the forests?

And the thing is that Catelyn, as so often, has the truth of it: People change and even if you knew a person ten years ago there's no telling that you know them now if you've not had contact with them for so many years.

What saved Tywin's neck was his own military and diplomatic skills that simply was more than those against him, Eddard's failure to take Renly's offer and also that Tywin's own luck cancelled out the bad shit he got from the luck possessed by his enemies.

1 hour ago, frenin said:

He's also the most hated guy in all Westeros, if Robert decided to teach him a lesson, even the dornish would gladly partake.

Tywin can't possibly hope to stand up to Robert, just like he couldn't do it with Aerys, the very fact that Tywin only invaded the Riverlands once his grandson was on the Throne and Ned was seized shows how confident was Tywin on his sleeve.

No, Tywin is not. I'd bet that Gregor is more hated than Tywin.

And the Dornish won't lift a finger for Robert. They didn't lift a finger to help Renly and they didn't lift a finger to help Stannis. The Dornish would stay put and work for Doran's dream of Targaryen king with a Martell queen. Everything is of secondary importance to Doran and thus by extension the Martells as a House. And helping House Baratheon in any way is not part of that dream.

The thing is that if Tywin knew that Robert would stand up to the Lannisters, he wouldn't have acted like he did. If there was indeed going to be that Robert took to the field to save or avenge Eddard, Tywin would have know that there was some iron left in Robert and so simply acted in another way. You seem to think that if you change the largest factor in Tywin's decision making process, as I would guess of it anyway, in how the king will react to something, then the outcome will still be the same. It would not.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Lion of the West said:

Problem is that Robert had no black rage when Jaime attacked Eddard in the street and killed Eddard's men. You'd think that the Demon of the Trident would have reacted with more vigor after that. But Robert did not. He chickened out and left the mess in Eddard's lap to get away from it by going out to hunt. If that didn't produce any "Watch out, Lannisters, its hammer time!" from Robert , why would Robert's reaction to this, which was also breaking the king's peace in the king's own city against his best friend, be more tame than his reaction if Eddard would be kidnapped out in the forests?

 

The fact that Robert rather smooth things over doesn't mean he chickened out but let's see the facts, Ned and Robert had got into a big fight and Ned had resigned his office, after that Robert hears that Cat Stark has kidnapped Tyrion for bs reasons,  so not only in everyone book Jaime had a pretty good reason to be upset but Ned's own whereabouts are pretty unclear and he also killed Jaime's men. Had Ned being very badly wounded or killed and Robert did nothing I'd agree. And he did not get any mess in Ned's lap actually, he commanded him to free Tyrion, which would ended that feud... apparently the Starks started for no reason.

And no, a fight on the streets, even if it's between the Ned and Jaime isn't breaking the King's Peace, who directly alludes about going to war without the King's leave.

But the Hand of the Kingbeing kidnapped under the King's banner by Tywin Lannister is a very different thing and has a very different audience, Tywin is publicly laughing at Robert's face in front of the entire Realm and that's the only thing that trigger Robert in his last years.

Why do you think everyone is sure that Jaime, Cersei and their kids wouldn't have survived had Robert ever found out about the incest?? 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lion of the West said:

 And the thing is that Catelyn, as so often, has the truth of it: People change and even if you knew a person ten years ago there's no telling that you know them now if you've not had contact with them for so many years.

 

I'm not talking about past Robert, I'm talking about the Robert who violently threatens his best friend after he insults him, and Ned is right in that aspect, Robert's rage does come as soon as it goes.

 

Quote

 What saved Tywin's neck was his own military and diplomatic skills that simply was more than those against him, Eddard's failure to take Renly's offer and also that Tywin's own luck cancelled out the bad shit he got from the luck possessed by his enemies.

The only military victory he achieved was the Green Fork and we all know how well Roose was perfoming that day, he is saved when both Robert and Ned die/were seized he is saved when Lysa Arryn decides to sit out of the war thus leaving her own blood on their own, he is saved when Renly dies, he is saved when Theon betrays Robb, he's saved when Stannis spent weeks laying a siege to his dreamed castle instead of going right away to KL, even when he is embarrassingly defeated by Edmure Tully turns out to be exactly what he needed because out of nowhere the Tyrells are on his side, he gets lucky when Balon is murdered and he gets even luckier when the Boltons and Freys approached him, not the other way around, with a plan to get rid of Robb Stark.

Because let's be honest had Tyrion and LF not be able of getting the Tyrells, the "support" of Doran and the neutrality of the Vale and Tywin was dead and chances are pretty high that he would be beaten only by Robb alone (he was being beaten by him until the Blackwater) and if Renly lives well, adiós Lannisters.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lion of the West said:

No, Tywin is not. I'd bet that Gregor is more hated than Tywin.

 

Gregor is a mad dog and everyone acknowledges it, is his master's head the one everyone craves for.

 

1 hour ago, Lion of the West said:

 And the Dornish won't lift a finger for Robert. They didn't lift a finger to help Renly and they didn't lift a finger to help Stannis. The Dornish would stay put and work for Doran's dream of Targaryen king with a Martell queen. Everything is of secondary importance to Doran and thus by extension the Martells as a House. And helping House Baratheon in any way is not part of that dream.

 

We know why Doran didn't lift a finger agaisnt the Lannisters, because Tyrion sent him Myrcella, if the rest of the Realm goes agaisnt the Lannister, you can bet anything, Doran would send someone, and destroying the Lannisters actually benefits that dream, the Lannisters are Robert's richest and most powerful allies, destroying them, even if it's helping House Baratheon, a help that they would not need much anyway, they took it.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lion of the West said:

 The thing is that if Tywin knew that Robert would stand up to the Lannisters, he wouldn't have acted like he did. If there was indeed going to be that Robert took to the field to save or avenge Eddard, Tywin would have know that there was some iron left in Robert and so simply acted in another way. You seem to think that if you change the largest factor in Tywin's decision making process, as I would guess of it anyway, in how the king will react to something, then the outcome will still be the same. It would not.

Yet the man only invaded the Riverlands after Robert was gone and Ned was seized, for a guy that allegedly thinks that can get away with anything he surely waited until everything was on his favor to really act and before that, he just sent Gregor undercover to ravaged some villages.

Btw, how Tywin knows about Robert suddenly becoming a craven, as far as i know the man wasn't present in  the fights between Cersei and Ned, only one fight actually, and when Jaime fleed the city, Tywin had alredy begun to move??

No, I'm arguing that the idea that Robert would idly sit out while Tywin kidnapps/murders his best friend and Hand of the King, breaking the King's Peace, just because Ned and Jaime got into "a drunk fight" after Ned's wife had kidnapped Jaime's little brother and Ned and he himself had argued to the point of almost breaking their friendship  seems  pretty naive honestly, and that committing treason with the hope that the King would ignore is actually a pretty stupid thing to do, Tywin acted either with overconfidence or directly because his pride was wounded and the only reason why he didn't suffer retalaliations for it is because the only two people with the power and influece to seize him, fell from power. 

Tywin never standed up to Robert, because no, sending you dogs to do shit while being undercover to goad the Riverlords into breaking the King's Peace or use plausible deniability if things go south, it's the opposite of stand up. If that's standing up, Ned went to war agaisnt him and lived to tell the tale.

[Lluewhyn]

On 8/9/2019 at 11:27 PM, Victor Newman said:

The Starks took what was essentially a family feud and took it up a notch.  Tywin took it up another notch.  Ned could have deescalated the whole thing but didn't.  Perhaps it would not have gone up to war if Robert had lived.  Tywin was retaliating but he didn't think it would go as far as it did.  It shouldn't have with a reasonable king on the throne and Tywin incorrectly assessed Robert capable.

And that is the great irony, is that the Starks believe that the Lannisters are on the verge of starting a war and/or coup, thanks to Littlefinger. Since Tywin doesn't know about this, in his mind the Starks are the ones starting a war and/or coup, and it escalates from there. I think this adds to the richness of the story, that the war's somewhat of a misunderstanding caused by a schemer.

That being said, I think it's awfully convenient how ready Tywin was to start the war and aid in the Lannister's efforts despite not being part of Cersei's conspiracies (because she can't tell him the important details).

 

 

[Dreadscythe95]

Tywin had an excuse because Catelyn captured Tyrion and took him to The Eyrie. So he just answered by raiding The Riverlands to show the might of Casterly Rock and givng the message that The Lannisters would not accept such an act. That's all. Robert had already commanded the release of Tyrion so it was Catelyn who was acting irresponsibly and not the Lannisters.

[frenin]

12 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Tywin had an excuse because Catelyn captured Tyrion and took him to The Eyrie. So he just answered by raiding The Riverlands to show the might of Casterly Rock and givng the message that The Lannisters would not accept such an act. That's all. Robert had already commanded the release of Tyrion so it was Catelyn who was acting irresponsibly and not the Lannisters.

Raiding a Kingdom without the King's leave, is both stupid and  treasonous,  I mean there is  a reason why Gregor goes  some kind of undercover because what he is doing is treason and  if KL decides support the Riverlands (as Ned did) Tywin can use his favourite excuse, plausible deniability, sending a raven to KL to demand  Robert the release of his son gets the job just as done.

[Dreadscythe95]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Raiding a Kingdom without the King's leave, is both stupid and  treasonous,  I mean there is  a reason why Gregor goes  some kind of undercover because what he is doing is treason and  if KL decides support the Riverlands (as Ned did) Tywin can use his favourite excuse, plausible deniability, sending a raven to KL to demand  Robert the release of his son gets the job just as done.

House Lannister is the Queen's House though and they are funding most of the Iron Throne expenses. They had the power to answer such an insult without the King's leave and not get punished. Remember, they don't start a war, they send a band of undercover bannermen to answer to House Tully's insults. Do they provoke? Yes. Did they have the power to do so? Absolutely.

[UnFit Finlay]

On 8/9/2019 at 7:49 PM, 2uenten said:

Then why does Tywin forbid Tyrion from going to Essos on a tour of the Free Cities as a kid? I always thought that would have been an opportunity to put Tyrion out of sight, out of mind. And maybe if he happens to have an unfortunate "accident" and never come back, all the better. 

Pride.

Tywin didn't want Tyrion representing House Lannister in the Free Cities and making them a laughing stock. I mean, even as a confident adult who has fought in battles, Tyrion is still treated like a figure of fun in Essos. As a kid, representing a Great House, it would be far far worse.

On 8/12/2019 at 5:19 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Tywin was baiting the RL to attack him. Once the crown / Ned threw that plan in the garbage, Tywin did pretty much the only thing he could. I'm not convinced at all that Robert would have taken Ned's side, but Tywin having a few hostages and every strategic location secured in the RL would be a hell of a bargaining chip if Robert decided to call his banners.

This.

His plan was really smart actually. Sending Gregor, who was instantly recognisable, under the guise of a brigand, was enough to incite the Riverlords while still giving him plausible deniability.  If the Riverlords retaliated - which they very nearly did - then he could convincingly claim that they started it. From Robert's perspective, I think it'd be very hard to side against Tywin. After all, the ONLY evidence against Tywin was some peasants saying that their attacker was really tall.

Hoster screwed it up when he convinced the Riverlords to go to Robert, and Ned even further when he denounced Gregor, but even then, had Robert not died, he'd have almost certainly just over-ruled Ned's command.

On 8/23/2019 at 3:38 AM, The Fresh PtwP said:

Tyrion volunteers to be in the vanguard.

Manipulated through the suggestion of cowardice but still volunteered.

That doesn't contradict the point that Tywin was planning to sacrifice him though.

He flat out said that he was expecting for them to crumble, and for the inexperienced Robb to rush in to take the flank and then get trapped by Kevan's reserve. There's no way he was expecting a dwarf to survive that surely?

[frenin]

3 hours ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

House Lannister is the Queen's House though and they are funding most of the Iron Throne expenses. They had the power to answer such an insult without the King's leave and not get punished. Remember, they don't start a war, they send a band of undercover bannermen to answer to House Tully's insults. Do they provoke? Yes. Did they have the power to do so? Absolutely.

You are buying their own hype and that make you unable to see the contradiction, if Tywin was so sure about the odds, Gregor would've carried the Lannister's banner, if there is something Tywin loves to do is showing the World how powerful is his House. Tywin very much knew that if he directly started raiding the Riverlansd it'd be open treason, because yes that's what it is.

 

 

20 minutes ago, UnFit Finlay said:

This.

His plan was really smart actually. Sending Gregor, who was instantly recognisable, under the guise of a brigand, was enough to incite the Riverlords while still giving him plausible deniability.  If the Riverlords retaliated - which they very nearly did - then he could convincingly claim that they started it. From Robert's perspective, I think it'd be very hard to side against Tywin. After all, the ONLY evidence against Tywin was some peasants saying that their attacker was really tall.

Hoster screwed it up when he convinced the Riverlords to go to Robert, and Ned even further when he denounced Gregor, but even then, had Robert not died, he'd have almost certainly just over-ruled Ned's command.

I don't think that he'd have overruled Ned's commands, Gregor by himself is no one, not someone you'd fight you Hand for, I do think that Gregor would be used as a escapegoat, the Riverlords would want someone's blood and Gregor comes very much in handy.

[Dreadscythe95]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

You are buying their own hype and that make you unable to see the contradiction, if Tywin was so sure about the odds, Gregor would've carried the Lannister's banner, if there is something Tywin loves to do is showing the World how powerful is his House. Tywin very much knew that if he directly started raiding the Riverlansd it'd be open treason, because yes that's what it is.

No he could not, because carrying the banners is a clear War declaration. That was a warning and a Demonstation of Power. That was possible because House Lannister is very strong in the events of AGOT.

Either we like it or not, not all kingdoms have the same influence on what we call "The Realm". The Reach and The Westerlands ARE THE REALM (and in a big part The Riverlands under the ruling of Harrenhal as well). There was Westeros without Dorne, There was Westeros without The Iron Islands, there can be Westeros without The North or The Vale but there is no Kingdom of Westeros without The Reach and The Westerlands. The whole economy, the population, the faith, the biggest armies, the gold. the food, the biggest city centers, the roads, the University. All lie in these two areas. Of course the Houses that rule them can still get replaced and lose a war but The de facto ruler of The Reach and The Westerlands has massive influnce and pressuse over The Iron Throne, even without having a place at court. The Lannisters have all that influence, that;s why they act so carelessly. The Tyrells are not in such a prominent place at the beginning AGOT and you see that they are more careful in the moves. After they get a Queen, they can pressure the influence on the crown far more easily. Mace Tyrell disobeys Kevan Lannisters orders as Hand of the King and denies the removal of his army from the Capital.

Even Varys somewhat implies that to Ned Stark in AGOT chapter 43.

Quote

"Had it been me up there, I should have sent Ser Loras. He so wanted to go . . . and a man who has the Lannisters for his enemies would do well to make the Tyrells his friends." 

 

[frenin]

@Dreadscythe95

Again, you keep believing your own hype.

 

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No he could not, because carrying the banners is a clear War declaration. That was a warning and a Demonstation of Power. That was possible because House Lannister is very strong in the events of AGOT.

You can't  have both, either Tywin was showing off regardless what KL might say, or the man was being cautious, House Lannister is very strong in AGOT but they can't face the wrath of the Throne.

Others have already said what the man wanted and it wasn't showing off.

2 hours ago, UnFit Finlay said:

On 8/12/2019 at 6:19 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Tywin was baiting the RL to attack him. Once the crown / Ned threw that plan in the garbage, Tywin did pretty much the only thing he could. I'm not convinced at all that Robert would have taken Ned's side, but Tywin having a few hostages and every strategic location secured in the RL would be a hell of a bargaining chip if Robert decided to call his banners.

 

 

Quote

Either we like it or not, not all kingdoms have the same influence on what we call "The Realm". The Reach and The Westerlands ARE THE REALM (and in a big part The Riverlands under the ruling of Harrenhal as well). 

The only time I've seen those Kingdoms having more influence and power than others is in the current time, this assertion is more of what it should be than what it really is.

 

46 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

There was Westeros without Dorne,

Yet the Targs kept styling themselves "King of the Rhoynar" and fought the 2 most brutal wars we've seen so far.

 

48 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

There was Westeros without The Iron Islands

The Iron Islands always have been a part of Westeros.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

there can be Westeros without The North or The Vale

I don't know how there can be Westeros without more than half the Kingdom.

 

51 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

but there is no Kingdom of Westeros without The Reach and The Westerlands. The whole economy, the population, the faith, the biggest armies, the gold. the food, the biggest city centers, the roads, the University. All lie in these two areas.

Are you sure?? The Westerlands and the Reach are the richest without doubt, but Gulltown... White Harbor, Maidenpoole, the population?? Are you sure?? The Vale has a lot of food too and all Westeros has roads, again, believing your own hype.

 

 

54 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

Of course the Houses that rule them can still get replaced and lose a war but The de facto ruler of The Reach and The Westerlands has massive influnce and pressuse over The Iron Throne, even without having a place at court.

Yet that never happened until the current series and that's literally because both Robert and LF are beggaring the Crown and Robert would do everthing so Cersei stops nagging him. The Reach was AWOL in Robert's reign.

 

 

57 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

The Lannisters have all that influence, that;s why they act so carelessly.

Again buying yourn own hype.

 

 

57 minutes ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

After they get a Queen, they can pressure the influence on the crown far more easily. Mace Tyrell disobeys Kevan Lannisters orders as Hand of the King and denies the removal of his army from the Capital.

Hmm because by that time, the Lannisters are literally doomed without the Tyrells support.

[Dreadscythe95]

3 hours ago, frenin said:

 

The Iron Islands always have been a part of Westeros.

They have rebelled many times, they are not needed for the Kingdom to function.

Quote

I don't know how there can be Westeros without more than half the Kingdom.

Are you sure?? The Westerlands and the Reach are the richest without doubt, but Gulltown... White Harbor, Maidenpoole, the population?? Are you sure?? The Vale has a lot of food too and all Westeros has roads, again, believing your own hype.

The important thing is population and economy. The Reach is by far the most populated, we know it has almost as much population as the other regions of Westeros combined (except from the 2 Big cities which are in Westerlands and Crownlands). 

House Lannister, House Tyrell and House Hightower have by far the most inflatated economies.

We know that the big cities are Oldtown, King's Landing and Lannisport. The rest are much smaller. The White Harbour is a big town for the size of The Reach, it's quite small.

The Vale has enough food to sustain itself mainly and export small amounts.

The richest trade roads pass from Highgarden (check the map), which is expected since it's the center of trade and goods in Westeros, it controls the breadbasket of Westeros, the population mass, the winery, the University and the Oldest City. It even has massive influence of The Faith of the Seven because of Oldtown.

Casterly Rock controls all the mines, which means the coin, and The second largest city in Westeros.

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Yet that never happened until the current series and that's literally because both Robert and LF are beggaring the Crown and Robert would do everthing so Cersei stops nagging him. The Reach was AWOL in Robert's reign.

Yes but all crowns need money and the only 2 places that you can have enough money to sustain a Realm of 9 Kingdoms in Westeros in The Westerlands and The Reach. In times of long piece The Riverlands could do a lot as well but it's a risky investment.

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Hmm because by that time, the Lannisters are literally doomed without the Tyrells support.

So is the crown without The Lannister support in the beginning of the series because they owe a lot on The Iron Bank of Bravos and as you know, one way or another they get their money. Also Robert has his KIDS with The Lannisters, his future. His only other option would be to bed The Tyrells and that would put his children from his first marriage aside, probably in danger as well. Or it could lead The Realm in a Civil War between Lannister and Tyrell supporters. And Robert knows that The Targaryen children are still alive, threatening his position.

 

[frenin]

1 hour ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

They have rebelled many times, they are not needed for the Kingdom to function.

They only rebelled once.

 

1 hour ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

The important thing is population and economy. The Reach is by far the most populated, we know it has almost as much population as the other regions of Westeros combined (except from the 2 Big cities which are in Westerlands and Crownlands). 

Where did you get that info, because that's the hype talking again. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

House Lannister, House Tyrell and House Hightower have by far the most inflatated economies.

 

They are the richest, true.

 

1 hour ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

 We know that the big cities are Oldtown, King's Landing and Lannisport. The rest are much smaller. The White Harbour is a big town for the size of The Reach, it's quite small.

 

There are only 5 big cities in Westeros, saying that 2 of them are irrelevant is ridiculous, noone ever dismisses White Harbor and Gulltown fot their size and we know that there are some prosperous towns like Maidenpool.

 

Quote

 The Vale has enough food to sustain itself mainly and export small amounts.

 Where do you get that?? That they barely have any.

 

 

1 hour ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

 The richest trade roads pass from Highgarden (check the map), which is expected since it's the center of trade and goods in Westeros, it controls the breadbasket of Westeros, the population mass, the winery, the University and the Oldest City. It even has massive influence of The Faith of the Seven because of Oldtown.

 

Yet there aren't the only roads, which were what you were claiming before.

 

1 hour ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

 Casterly Rock controls all the mines, which means the coin, and The second largest city in Westeros.

I've never heard that the coin came from Casterly Rock.

 

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Yes but all crowns need money and the only 2 places that you can have enough money to sustain a Realm of 9 Kingdoms in Westeros in The Westerlands and The Reach. In times of long piece The Riverlands could do a lot as well but it's a risky investment.

Hmmm, every Realm is self sufficient and they pay some taxes to the crown, the Reach is not paying for Dorne's schools.

 

 

1 hour ago, Dreadscythe95 said:

So is the crown without The Lannister support in the beginning of the series because they owe a lot on The Iron Bank of Bravos and as you know, one way or another they get their money. Also Robert has his KIDS with The Lannisters, his future. His only other option would be to bed The Tyrells and that would put his children from his first marriage aside, probably in danger as well. Or it could lead The Realm in a Civil War between Lannister and Tyrell supporters. And Robert knows that The Targaryen children are still alive, threatening his position.

 

Without the Lannisters, who had to stick with a Baratheon regime because Tywin "wisely" burned all the Targ bridges, the Lannisters can act agaisnt the Baratheon regime because they are dead without it, nor the Lannisters have any friends but Robert, not even the Baratheons, if Robert attacks them,they are literally alone. 

The notion that the Lannister can do whatever they want is interesting, becausewe always see Tywin using subtefuges and plausible deniability until his blood is on the Throne.

[Dreadscythe95]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

They only rebelled once.

 

Where did you get that info, because that's the hype talking again. 

 

 

They are the richest, true.

 

There are only 5 big cities in Westeros, saying that 2 of them are irrelevant is ridiculous, noone ever dismisses White Harbor and Gulltown fot their size and we know that there are some prosperous towns like Maidenpool.

 

 Where do you get that?? That they barely have any.

 

 

Yet there aren't the only roads, which were what you were claiming before.

 

I've never heard that the coin came from Casterly Rock.

 

Hmmm, every Realm is self sufficient and they pay some taxes to the crown, the Reach is not paying for Dorne's schools.

 

Without the Lannisters, who had to stick with a Baratheon regime because Tywin "wisely" burned all the Targ bridges, the Lannisters can act agaisnt the Baratheon regime because they are dead without it, nor the Lannisters have any friends but Robert, not even the Baratheons, if Robert attacks them,they are literally alone. 

The notion that the Lannister can do whatever they want is interesting, becausewe always see Tywin using subtefuges and plausible deniability until his blood is on the Throne.

1. There is also the red Kraken

2. GRRM had given info on the Armies and sustain of every kingdom somewhere, probably more poeple in here could also confirm this cause I don't remember at this point.

3. Yes, they are far richer than the rest, there is a big gap.

4. Gulltown is not irrelevant, it's just far weaker than the big 3 which are big economy centers for the whole world. White Harbor is very important because it's the only Northen Harbor. Still we have official info that it's very small (and very beautiful).

5. No, Martin has given info again (maybe in The Wolrd Of Ice and Fire, I am not sure). He said that The Vale can sustain itself when it comes to food and it can actually in good years export a few but it's not enough to build strong econmy through agriculture. Still The Vale maintains itself, it can close The Bloody Gate and survive pretty well.

6. I meant the most important

7. Coin strength comes from gold and since in Westeros (and in real history that time) the nobles have a lot of gold and riches compared to the plebs, they use real gold coins (the golden dragon). So, it's the wealth of Casterly Rock that gives the coin strength of Westeros and it's The Reach that sustains most of Westeros in food, Maesters and wine (there is also the Dornish). Also they control the trade. 

8. They are not self sufficient at all and people don't go to school, the quality of life of the plebs depends directly to the quality of life of the Nobles. Also Dorn inports most of it's goods from The Free cities since they have good relationship with most of them and they have parted ways with Westeros many times. Even Doran's wife is fron Norvos.

9. He won't destory The Lannisters because he will follow them. The Baratheon Crown was dependent on the Lannisters a lot. He would be forced to declare war if they did something extreme but considering that Catelyn was the one to start it all, they have a good excuse to act bold and still not get a punishment because of their position in power (and with They I mean both Robert and Tywin)