Jump to content
Yaya

Winterfell, the castle, questions about

Recommended Posts

hi all - just one caveat to this thread - canon only ....  please do not reference the &!%@*$#  hbo show.

i would like to know your thoughts on things about Winterfell, the castle.  for example:

1.  Winterfell - this is the only place where we 'know' that a 'glass garden' exists (isn't it?) ... why wouldn't  other castles (with funds) have a (at least one) greenhouse?

2.  why wasn't the broken tower repaired?    " also known as the Burned Tower, was once the tallest watchtower in Winterfell. Over one hundred forty years ago a lightning strike set it afire and the top third collapsed inward, but no one bothered to rebuild it. "
it would seem that in all the time this would have been fixed.   Why wasn't it?

3.  the stone tunnel:
"Bran knew about that. And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. "hmmmmm.... was this tunnel something that the CotF would have had a part in, an original Brandon the Builder thing?  could this be something that Mance might discover?

4.  And where are all the other Starks buried? do you think they are all in the crypt?

do you have any other observations about Winterfell, the castle?  
thanks!  i am looking forward to reading your thoughts on these matters.


 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Yaya said:

hi all - just one caveat to this thread - canon only ....  please do not reference the &!%@*$#  hbo show.

i would like to know your thoughts on things about Winterfell, the castle.  for example:

1.  Winterfell - this is the only place where we 'know' that a 'glass garden' exists (isn't it?) ... why wouldn't  other castles (with funds) have a (at least one) greenhouse?

The Greenhouse works because WF has geothermal energy. If no other castle has it, then other castles would likely not have it. That said areas in Dorne would probably benefit from it but I don't know if they have irrigation canals or not. For any significant crop production you'd need fairly major sources of water.

1 hour ago, Yaya said:

2.  why wasn't the broken tower repaired?    " also known as the Burned Tower, was once the tallest watchtower in Winterfell. Over one hundred forty years ago a lightning strike set it afire and the top third collapsed inward, but no one bothered to rebuild it. "
it would seem that in all the time this would have been fixed.   Why wasn't it?

First Keep was abandoned too, so it's not just that. I don't know why other than to speculate that the Stark lords had better things to worry and no need for them. It's not like there's been a surfeit of Starks running around WF for the last 100 or so years. the WB points out several instances in the last 100 years where the Stark lord dies and the Starks have had to spend a lot of time / money to fight rebellions / invasions / reavers rather than rebuild parts of WF. However given how quickly Wyman Manderly massively bolstered the WH defenses and how quickly Roose rebuilt much of WF after the sack, I think it's just how GRRM wanted it.

“Stone and timber were plentiful with the wolfswood so close at hand. Stout new gates had gone up first, to replace those that had been burned. Then the collapsed roof of the Great Hall had been cleared away and a new one raised hurriedly in its stead.”

“Some of the city’s defenses had been strengthened since the last time Davos had been here, half a dozen years before. The jetty that divided the inner and outer harbors had been fortified with a long stone wall, thirty feet tall and almost a mile long, with towers every hundred yards. ”

 

 

1 hour ago, Yaya said:

3.  the stone tunnel:
"Bran knew about that. And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. "hmmmmm.... was this tunnel something that the CotF would have had a part in, an original Brandon the Builder thing?  could this be something that Mance might discover?

Based on what we know from ADWD, I don't think Mance or the  spearwives are around or in any position to be able to access the tunnel. Mance might but as soon as Bolton discovers that the spearwives helped "Arya" escape I don't think Mance is long for this world. He has little if any time to escape and little chance given what we know.

1 hour ago, Yaya said:

do you have any other observations about Winterfell, the castle?  
thanks!  i am looking forward to reading your thoughts on these matters.

It still annoys me that Rodrik took way more men than he needed to fight Dagmer. Seriously leaving 50 men of hte 900 he had behind wouldn't hurt anything and would make WF basically impregnable to any force within 1000 miles of the castle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Universal Sword Donor's answers is really good. For the second question I will add this nice tidbits from Fire & Blood:

 

Quote

 

King Jaehaerys also brought forth a new law on crenellations. Any lord who wished to build a new castle or expand and repair his existing seat would need to pay a hefty price for the privilege. The new tax served a dual purpose, His Grace explained to Grand Maester Benifer. “The larger and stronger a castle, the more its lord is tempted to defy me. You would think they might learn from Black Harren, but too many do not know their history. This tax will discourage them from building, whilst those who must build regardless can replenish our treasury whilst they empty theirs.”

Fire & Blood, A Time of Testing - The Realm Remade

 

Given that the north was independant at the time, Wyman Manderly didn't have to pay any taxes for his building project at White Harbor.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Yaya said:

hi all - just one caveat to this thread - canon only ....  please do not reference the &!%@*$#  hbo show.

i would like to know your thoughts on things about Winterfell, the castle.  for example:

1.  Winterfell - this is the only place where we 'know' that a 'glass garden' exists (isn't it?) ... why wouldn't  other castles (with funds) have a (at least one) greenhouse?

2.  why wasn't the broken tower repaired?    " also known as the Burned Tower, was once the tallest watchtower in Winterfell. Over one hundred forty years ago a lightning strike set it afire and the top third collapsed inward, but no one bothered to rebuild it. "
it would seem that in all the time this would have been fixed.   Why wasn't it?

3.  the stone tunnel:
"Bran knew about that. And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. "hmmmmm.... was this tunnel something that the CotF would have had a part in, an original Brandon the Builder thing?  could this be something that Mance might discover?

4.  And where are all the other Starks buried? do you think they are all in the crypt?

do you have any other observations about Winterfell, the castle?  
thanks!  i am looking forward to reading your thoughts on these matters.

1.  Winterfell - this is the only place where we 'know' that a 'glass garden' exists (isn't it?) ... why wouldn't  other castles (with funds) have a (at least one) greenhouse?

I agree with Universal Sword Donor above...  the only glass gardens mentioned in the books exist in Winterfell because the whole complex sits over hot springs and the hot water is pumped through the walls to counter the cold of winter. 

2.  why wasn't the broken tower repaired?    " also known as the Burned Tower, was once the tallest watchtower in Winterfell. Over one hundred forty years ago a lightning strike set it afire and the top third collapsed inward, but no one bothered to rebuild it. "
it would seem that in all the time this would have been fixed.   Why wasn't it?

Winterfell is ancient and both the First Keep and the Broken tower may be thousands of years old.  Maybe the Starks were once wealthier than they are in the books?  The buildings may be old and forgotten to help drive GRRM's story.  An unused first keep is a pretty handy location for Jaime and Cercei to find a private chamber to sneak off to and ancient abandoned buildings make for rough surfaces and gnarly walls for Bran to pursue his passion for climbing.  

3.  the stone tunnel:

"Bran knew about that. And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. "hmmmmm.... was this tunnel something that the CotF would have had a part in, an original Brandon the Builder thing?  could this be something that Mance might discover?

 The inner walls are ancient and legends suggest that Brandon the Builder was involved in building Winterfell so he may have had something to do with the tunnel being built into the inner walls but I somehow think it is just a cool detail that GRRM wanted to include and also something that helps establish that the ancient fortress was built on uneven ground.  The tunnel starts three floors above ground on one side of the fortress but emerges at ground level on the other.  I imagine it was a secret escape route originally. 

4.  And where are all the other Starks buried? do you think they are all in the crypt?

I think all of the ruling Starks were buried in the crypts which are described as being larger than the castle complex:  "The crypts are located deep under the earth, cavernous and bigger than the complex above ground."  Hopefully we get to read more about the depths of the crypts in the upcoming books.  Just how deep below ground do they go?  Do they lead to a secret entrance (or entrances) beyond the protected walls of Winterfell?

do you have any other observations about Winterfell, the castle?  

I think it significant that Winterfell is ancient beyond imagining and that it is built over hot springs and an enormous cave system housing the remains of countless Stark ancestors.  There may be important knowledge and artifacts down there waiting to be revealed to the reader when we finally get new pages to read. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Effects_of_Winter/

Quote

A lot of food is stored. Smoked, salted, packed away in granaries, and so on. The populations along the coast depend on fishing a great deal, and even inland, there is ice fishing on the rivers and on Long Lake. And some of the great lords try and maintain greenhouses to provide for their own castles... the "glass gardens" of Winterfell are referred to several times.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nittanian said:

I keep seeing references to Dreadfort being over volcanic vents, and I swear I saw something similar to it in one of the RPG guides, but I don't think that's strictly canon (or even confirmable). 

It would not surprise me if Dragonstone had a similar system. It's clearly a volcano and it's not like an island lacks for water (for heating anyway). Pretty sure the saltwater would basically be Brawndo for any plants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I keep seeing references to Dreadfort being over volcanic vents, and I swear I saw something similar to it in one of the RPG guides, but I don't think that's strictly canon (or even confirmable). 

I couldn't find mention in either RPG. 

The Guardians of Order book says, "Up until a thousand years prior to the rule of Lord Eddard Stark, the Bolton family was a major antagonist of the Kings in the North. The Boltons were best known for their tendency to flay the flesh off their enemies and wear the skins as cloaks. Many a Stark's skin was worn by the lords of the Dreadfort before they bent the knee a thousand years ago. Since the Boltons swore fealty to House Stark, this practice has theoretically  stopped, but it is said they still have a room in the Dreadfort where the skins of their enemies hang. The Lord of the Dreadfort during King Robert Baratheon's reign is Roose Bolton. His only surviving child is a bastard named Ramsay Snow."

The Green Ronin campaign book says, "East of Winterfell and situated along the Weeping Water is the ancient Dreadfort, the fortress-castle of House Bolton. It's rumored the Dreadfort contains a room where they keep the skins of their enemies on display."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you go to the search website (A Search of Ice and Fire) and search on "diamonds," you will find a lot of references to diamond-shaped panes of glass. Diamonds are a complex symbol but I think the glass house at Winterfell is linked to the larger motif established by the diamond shaped panes. It's a long story, but the allegorical history of the gemstone emperors begins when the first emperor hooks up with the maiden made of light. I think the uniting of diamonds and light is the "Genesis" moment for GRRM's creation myth (and it is symbolically recreated through the use of the sunglass - a prism - to create a rainbow in the Faith of the Seven.

The glass house at Winterfell cannot easily be rebuilt because it requires the uniting of the gemstone (emperor) with the (maiden made of) light. Remember when Sansa is building her snow castle? Baelish tells her that they can use twigs to make the framework that would hold the panes of glass in the model castle, but they can't make the panes of glass themselves. I believe this is a symbolic moment where Baelish admits that his powers extend only so far.

And yet -

For complicated reasons, Baelish is arranging a match between Sansa / Alayne and Harrold Hardyng whose sigil includes - red and white diamonds. I think the symbolic steps necessary for reconstruction of the glass house - where lemon trees grow and where a mysterious man gave Bran a blackberry to eat - is coming about through Sansa / Alayne's arc.

I still haven't read Fire & Blood but I read the excerpt where the Stark lord tells Queen Alysanne that a dragon is not welcome between the walls of Winterfell. I think the double walls are significant. At some point, the Stark lord suggested to the Targaryen ruler that there could be a second wall built for the Night's Watch, as I recall. Perhaps that idea was related to the double wall at Winterfell. Sometimes the Winterfell wall is referred to as a curtain wall.

What is between the walls of Winterfell? Flowing water. Which seems like a river allusion and, don't ya know, the current Lady Stark is Catelyn Tully who is from the Riverlands and Riverrun. So dragons are not welcome between the walls but flowing water is welcome.

Catelyn's son, Bran, seems to be the only contemporary person who has found a passage between the walls where a person can move around the structure. Is this real, or is this a magic power, like warging? Did Bran skinchange Winterfell and he didn't know he was doing it? He loses this ability when he loses the ability to walk, unfortunately.

I am only speculating about the possibility of Bran skinchanging Winterfell. I think it's much more likely related to the Gendel and Gorne story, and the tunnel from beyond the Wall to Winterfell. The spear wives question Theon closely to find out how he was able to invade Winterfell, and Osha may be looking for the mouth of the tunnel when she swims in the pool in the gods wood. Only certain people may be able to find the tunnel and to guide others.

There are a couple of references (or maybe just one flashback?) to Sansa, Arya and Bran playing chase around Winterfell, with Bran ending up standing on a covered bridge and Sansa and Arya ending up wrestling in the snow (outside of the kitchen, I believe). I think the only other playing at Winterfell is done in the crypt (unless you count practicing sword fighting?). That scene with Bran on top of a covered bridge seems significant to me, but I can't yet put my finger on it. I'm sure it's foreshadowing, though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Seams said:

If you go to the search website (A Search of Ice and Fire) and search on "diamonds," you will find a lot of references to diamond-shaped panes of glass. Diamonds are a complex symbol but I think the glass house at Winterfell is linked to the larger motif established by the diamond shaped panes. It's a long story, but the allegorical history of the gemstone emperors begins when the first emperor hooks up with the maiden made of light. I think the uniting of diamonds and light is the "Genesis" moment for GRRM's creation myth (and it is symbolically recreated through the use of the sunglass - a prism - to create a rainbow in the Faith of the Seven.

Uh are the glass garden panes even diamond shaped? That makes basically no sense for a roof

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Uh are the glass garden panes even diamond shaped? That makes basically no sense for a roof

Silly me! I've been thinking all this time that ASOIAF is a series of novels with a rich underpinning of literary symbolism. Your insight helps to clarify that the books are, in fact, the published building code for Westeros building contractors. Engineering standards for (modern) glass roof construction is an important message in these books and I missed it!

And silly me, too, for taking the time to use the search website, to look at the way the author describes glass panes. He was obviously trying to trick me, and I fell for it. I bow down to your unsubstantiated assertion, because you clearly know things the author does not want us to know.

On the other hand, medieval glass-making methods (which I assume are roughly the state of the art in Westeros) relied on the combining of small panes to create large glass surfaces. So feel free to share book-based evidence that presents support for your "makes no sense" declaration about my book-based idea.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/6/2019 at 5:32 PM, Yaya said:

hi all - just one caveat to this thread - canon only ....  please do not reference the &!%@*$#  hbo show.

i would like to know your thoughts on things about Winterfell, the castle.  for example:

1.  Winterfell - this is the only place where we 'know' that a 'glass garden' exists (isn't it?) ... why wouldn't  other castles (with funds) have a (at least one) greenhouse?

2.  why wasn't the broken tower repaired?    " also known as the Burned Tower, was once the tallest watchtower in Winterfell. Over one hundred forty years ago a lightning strike set it afire and the top third collapsed inward, but no one bothered to rebuild it. "
it would seem that in all the time this would have been fixed.   Why wasn't it?

3.  the stone tunnel:
"Bran knew about that. And he knew you could get inside the inner wall by the south gate, climb three floors and run all the way around Winterfell through a narrow tunnel in the stone, and then come out on ground level at the north gate, with a hundred feet of wall looming over you. "hmmmmm.... was this tunnel something that the CotF would have had a part in, an original Brandon the Builder thing?  could this be something that Mance might discover?

4.  And where are all the other Starks buried? do you think they are all in the crypt?

do you have any other observations about Winterfell, the castle?  
thanks!  i am looking forward to reading your thoughts on these matters.


 

 

 

It’s there to imply that the Starks are close to nature and have nurturing tendencies. This is contrast to Southern Lords who are interested in wine, whores and other repugnant wastes of money. It’s all very on the nose. Targaryens build a map of the world to conquer and play games while the Starks plant trees. Have you figured out who the good guys are?

Because the Starks consider spending money wasteful. So having a derelict tower makes sense to them. They probably have the money they just don’t spend because they think it’s thrifty and place moral value on that. Bad people spend money kids. 

Doesnt Bran get out this way? Could be hinting how the castle is retaken in future. There’s lots of reasons castles would have hidden tunnels. It doesn’t need to be the Children but it could be.  I am not sure how much George wants to do with the Children TBH. It felt like he wanted to do more then realised people preferred his political drama so delayed doing anything with them.

I am guessing the crypts are a lot bigger. It’s probably like a Skyrim quest down there. Plus in World of Ice it’s mentioned that Winterfell fell to the Bolton’s a few times. I imagine they destroyed all of the tombs, dug them up, hurled their bones in ditches. So we’re only talking a few centuries of Starks and not an unbroken thousands of years I’d imagine. That or they churn through the older ones to make space. Little undignified but needs must.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Seams said:

Silly me! I've been thinking all this time that ASOIAF is a series of novels with a rich underpinning of literary symbolism. Your insight helps to clarify that the books are, in fact, the published building code for Westeros building contractors. Engineering standards for (modern) glass roof construction is an important message in these books and I missed it!

And silly me, too, for taking the time to use the search website, to look at the way the author describes glass panes. He was obviously trying to trick me, and I fell for it. I bow down to your unsubstantiated assertion, because you clearly know things the author does not want us to know.

On the other hand, medieval glass-making methods (which I assume are roughly the state of the art in Westeros) relied on the combining of small panes to create large glass surfaces. So feel free to share book-based evidence that presents support for your "makes no sense" declaration about my book-based idea.

Right. The easy way to reply would have been to say "Yes the glass panes are described as diamonds (or something similar)" instead of trying -- emphasis on trying -- incredibly hard to make a post dripping with sarcasm and failing very hard to be funny. Normally when you posit something, you try to support it with evidence instead of insults.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Right. The easy way to reply would have been to say "Yes the glass panes are described as diamonds (or something similar)" instead of trying -- emphasis on trying -- incredibly hard to make a post dripping with sarcasm and failing very hard to be funny. Normally when you posit something, you try to support it with evidence instead of insults.

I enjoyed it!

As I mentioned, the evidence is easily found in the search site. Here's some of my evidence about the nature of window glass in Westeros:

Cool green light filtered down through the diamond-shaped panes of colored glass set in the sloping triangular walls...

(ASoS, Dany III)

The light streaming through the diamond-shaped panes of glass made the blade shimmer black and red as Lord Tywin turned it to inspect the edge, while the pommel and crossguard flamed gold.

(ASoS, Tyrion IV)

The small diamond-shaped panes of the window were obscured by frost.

(AFfC, Alayne II)

When Jon folded back the window with its thick diamond-shaped panes of yellow glass, the chill of the morning hit him in the face.

(ADwD, Jon I)

Still waiting to see your evidence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Seams said:

I enjoyed it!

As I mentioned, the evidence is easily found in the search site. Here's some of my evidence about the nature of window glass in Westeros:

Still waiting to see your evidence.

Right. However I didn't make the point. I asked a question about a point you didn't support. Thank you for clarifying. 

As to my evidence, well if you're going to make a greenhouse effective, you need to maximize the light coming in. Tons of little latticed diamond shapes -- like those often found in medieval stained glass -- in the roof are going to dramatically reduce the amount of light allowed in. Granted this is a modern example but the contrast in surface area take up is striking. In an area where it might be winter for half a decade, you're going to want the maximum amount of light possible. Throw that in with the knowledge it's a roof that needs to be able to hold the weight of winter snows and will have beams supporting it....

It's a fantasy story so obviously everything can be bent or outright fabricated, so it's kinda moot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 8/12/2019 at 12:04 PM, Seams said:

For complicated reasons, Baelish is arranging a match between Sansa / Alayne and Harrold Hardyng whose sigil includes - red and white diamonds. I think the symbolic steps necessary for reconstruction of the glass house - where lemon trees grow and where a mysterious man gave Bran a blackberry to eat - is coming about through Sansa / Alayne's arc.

Interesting connection to the glass gardens being in shambles and that being the part of the snow castle that Sansa and Littlefinger struggled with. I think the glass panes for the Winterfell glass garden are yellow and green. Those are the only two colors mentioned in regards to that structure. I do like the idea of the white and red diamonds in relation to Sansa and rebuilding Winterfell, but am not sure the colors work with what we know of Winterfell. 

Quote

It took the rest of the morning to make a slow circuit of the castle. The great granite walls remained, blackened here and there by fire but otherwise untouched. But within, all was death and destruction. The doors of the Great Hall were charred and smoldering, and inside the rafters had given way and the whole roof had crashed down onto the floor. The green and yellow panes of the glass gardens were all in shards, the trees and fruits and flowers torn up or left exposed to die. Of the stables, made of wood and thatch, nothing remained but ashes, embers, and dead horses. Bran thought of his Dancer, and wanted to weep. There was a shallow steaming lake beneath the Library Tower, and hot water gushing from a crack in its side. The bridge between the Bell Tower and the rookery had collapsed into the yard below, and Maester Luwin's turret was gone. They saw a dull red glow shining up through the narrow cellar windows beneath the Great Keep, and a second fire still burning in one of the storehouses. ACOK-Bran VII

 

Quote

Glass, Jon mused, might be of use here. Castle Black needs its own glass gardens, like the ones at Winterfell. We could grow vegetables even in the deep of winter. The best glass came from Myr, but a good clear pane was worth its weight in spice, and green and yellow glass would not work as well. What we need is gold. With enough coin, we could buy 'prentice glassblowers and glaziers in Myr, bring them north, offer them their freedom for teaching their art to some of our recruits. That would be the way to go about it. If we had the gold. Which we do not. ADWD-Jon VII

But maybe, if rebuilt, the glass would be a different color than it had been previously. Here, Jon seems to think that clear glass is worth it's weight in spice and that green and yellow would not work so well. 

 

On 8/12/2019 at 12:04 PM, Seams said:

I still haven't read Fire & Blood but I read the excerpt where the Stark lord tells Queen Alysanne that a dragon is not welcome between the walls of Winterfell. I think the double walls are significant. At some point, the Stark lord suggested to the Targaryen ruler that there could be a second wall built for the Night's Watch, as I recall. Perhaps that idea was related to the double wall at Winterfell. Sometimes the Winterfell wall is referred to as a curtain wall.

What is between the walls of Winterfell? Flowing water. Which seems like a river allusion and, don't ya know, the current Lady Stark is Catelyn Tully who is from the Riverlands and Riverrun. So dragons are not welcome between the walls but flowing water is welcome.

I looked at Fire and Blood, because your phrasing stood out to me, and I didn't remember that from the text, and this is the text that is in the book for the meeting of Alysanne and Alaric.

Quote

After taking leave of White Harbor, the queen's retinue sailed up the White Knife to its rapids, then proceeded overland to Winterfell, while Alysanne herself flew ahead on Silverwing. The warmth of her reception at White harbor was not to be duplicated at the ancient seat of the Kings in the North, where Alaric Stark and his sons alone emerged to greet her when her dragon landed before the castle gates. Lord Alaric had a flinty reputation; a hard man, people said, stern and unforgiving, tight-fisted almost to the point of being niggardly, humorless, joyless, cold. Even Theomore Manderly, who was his bannerman, had not disagreed; Stark was well respected in the North, he said, but not loved. Lord Manderly's fool had put it elsewise. "Me thinks Lord Alaric has not moved his bowels since he was twelve."

Her reception at Winterfell did nothing to disabuse the queen's fears as to what she might expect from House Stark. Even before dismounting to bend the knee, Lord Alaric looked askance at Her Grace's clothing and said, "I hope you brought something warmer than that." He then proceeded to declare that he did not want her dragon inside his walls. "I've not seen Harrenhal, but I know what happened there." Her knights and ladies he would receive when they got here, "and the king too, if he can find the way," but they should not overstay their welcome. "this is the North, and winter is coming. We cannot feed a thousand men for long." When the queen assured him that only a tenth that number would be coming, Lord Alaric grunted and said, "That's good. Fewer would be even better." As had been feared, he was plainly unhappy that King Jaehaerys had not deigned to accompany her, and confessed to being uncertain how to entertain a queen. "If you are expecting balls and masques and dances, you have come to the wrong place." Fire & Blood: Jaehaerys and Alysanne: Their Triumphs and Tragedies

Sorry if there are any typos. I typed it up myself. Man, that really made me appreciate A Search of Ice and Fire and how easy it's made finding quotes.  I also just want to say I quite enjoyed reading about Alaric Stark.

I do think the double walls of Winterfell at interesting, but I had read a theory once that implied that perhaps the moat that runs between the walls could be set on fire in case of enemy attack. What I find quite interesting about Winterfell is that it is made of granite, and granite is a stone that is very hard to burn or scorch. Even after Ramsay burned the castle, most of it is still standing, it just needs new roofs. A few cracked towers, but not to bad. Of course, a dragon inside the castle could still cause a lot of damage, but I don't know if it's the kind of damage we see from Balerion's fire at Harrenhal.

Quote

He is looking at me, Jon thought, stunned. "Winterfell is no more. Theon Greyjoy put it to the torch."

"Granite does not burn easily," Stannis said. "The castle can be rebuilt, in time. It's not the walls that make a lord, it's the man. Your northmen do not know me, have no reason to love me, yet I will need their strength in the battles yet to come. I need a son of Eddard Stark to win them to my banner." ASOS-Jon XI

My tinfoil is that Winterfell is built to withstand dragons, partly based on the granite structure of the place. We don't see much built with granite in this story. Winterfell, the middle wall of Qarth, and the three towers of Hollard castle are built with grey granite, and the legs of the Titan of Braavos are built of black granite.  But Winterfell, it's walls, it's great hall, it's towers, the crypts and it's columns, the statues of the Lords and direwolves are all built of grey granite. That has to mean something, I think. Or maybe it doesn't mean anything and GRRM just thought it would be impressive to have a castle made of granite. :dunno:

I do find the tunnels inside the walls and the idea that the crypts might also harbor a way to sneak into and around the castle to be interesting and it will probably be important at some point later in the story.

Edited by St Daga
spelling, yikes!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

It's a fantasy story so obviously everything can be bent or outright fabricated, so it's kinda moot.

Ah. When you refer to your point as, "... it's kinda moot," if you mean that I'm right and you are wrong, then we agree!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, St Daga said:

Interesting connection to the glass gardens being in shambles and that being the part of the snow castle that Sansa and Littlefinger struggled with. I think the glass panes for the Winterfell glass garden are yellow and green. Those are the only two colors mentioned in regards to that structure. I do like the idea of the white and red diamonds in relation to Sansa and rebuilding Winterfell, but am not sure the colors work with what we know of Winterfell.

But maybe, if rebuilt, the glass would be a different color than it had been previously. Here, Jon seems to think that clear glass is worth it's weight in spice and that green and yellow would not work so well.

I looked at Fire and Blood, because your phrasing stood out to me, and I didn't remember that from the text, and this is the text that is in the book for the meeting of Alysanne and Alaric.

...He then proceeded to declare that he did not want her dragon inside his walls. ...

Sorry if there are any typos. I typed it up myself. Man, that really made me appreciate A Search of Ice and Fire and how easy it's made finding quotes.  I also just want to say I quite enjoyed reading about Alaric Stark.

I do think the double walls of Winterfell at interesting, but I had read a theory once that implied that perhaps the moat that runs between the walls could be set on fire in case of enemy attack. What I find quite interesting about Winterfell is that it is made of granite, and granite is a stone that is very hard to burn or scorch. Even after Ramsay burned the castle, most of it is still standing, it just needs new roofs. A few cracked towers, but not to bad. Of course, a dragon inside the castle could still cause a lot of damage, but I don't know if it's the kind of damage we see from Balerion's fire at Harrenhal.

I agree that the yellow/green and white/red combinations are meaningful. From the initial analysis I have attempted of GRRM's color codes, the ways that two colors are combined seem to carry meaning: we know that red and white refers to Bloodraven, Jon's direwolf and weirwood trees. How the three of those fit together, and why they have a common color scheme, is not yet clear. I would add that when red and white are mixed - not just paired together - they make pink. Pink is associated with House Bolton.

The yellow and green in the Winterfell glass are both colors of the rainbow, so Renly's rainbow guard can offer some clues.

Although Renly's green guard was Ser Guyard Morrigan, the color green is closely associated with House Tyrell (Ser Garlan Tyrell eventually slays Ser Guyard) and with Renly, who wears a Tyrell cloak at his wedding and who has green armor. I suspect that green is inherited by the "heir" of Garth Greenhand, and it represents nature and seasonal rebirth. (There are obviously complicating factors such as the Green Grace and The Greens and Blacks in the Dance of the Dragons.) The jousting victory of Ser Loras over Gregor Clegane (whose name offers some interesting "green" anagram possibilities) may foreshadow the eventual victory of seasonal rebirth in Westeros.

[I may need to add here that a jousting victory, slaying in combat or - in the case of the Starks - the bite of a direwolf seems to cause the qualities of the defeated or slain or bitten person to adhere to the victor. Melisandre and Stannis were hoping that the death of Renly would help to clarify that Stannis is the rightful king but I suspect that Ser Garlan slaying Ser Guyard was GRRM's way of signalling that "green power" is retained by the Tyrell family in spite of the murder of Renly - the green that had been bestowed on Renly is reappropriated by the Tyrells. As Ser Loras was Renly's true love, I suspect that green power also stays with Ser Loras in spite of the marriage of Margaery to Joffrey and/or Tommen. The subsequent marriages are not accompanied by the "green power" that the Lannisters might hope to achieve.]

Yellow in the rainbow guard is associated with Ser Emmon Cuy. I suspect there is an Emmon/lemon wordplay link. We all know that Dany wants to find a lemon tree and that Sansa cannot get enough lemon cakes. Yellow, combined with red, is also a component of orange, and that is a really key symbolic color for ASOIAF. (Ser Loras kills Renly's red and yellow knights and his orange knight is killed at the Blackwater.) For complicated reasons, I associate orange with Targaryens: among other reasons, red, yellow and orange are flame colors in ASOIAF.

The effort to bring Sansa together with Harrold Hardyng may be an effort to start a new royal dynasty, uniting Sansa's lemon yellow with Hardyng's red diamonds. Green is not part of Littlefinger's ambition for a new dynasty.

If you care to follow that rainbow guard analysis (linked above), there is a connection between colors and fruit as well as colors and gems. I haven't followed it to its conclusion, but I suspect there is a connection between garnets, pomegranates and the color red. Jon Snow is slain by an Old Pomegranate. The literal meaning of pomegranate is "apple garnet." Littlefinger tries to get Sansa to share a pomegranate with him, but she chooses a pear instead - yellow and green? There are notable scenes where key characters eat apples: Littlefinger while he waits for Ned to descend the hidden path from the Red Keep; Jon Snow when he attempts to desert the Night's Watch; Davos when he is sent to win the support of House Manderly. The Alleras character who is probably Sarella Sand, part of House Martell, shoots apples except the one that is allowed to fall into the river.

Where I am going with this is that I suspect that granite is part of a wordplay group with garnets and pomegranates. It's not red, but the magic of wordplay could provide a link that tells us how GRRM is using it as a literary symbol.

I stand corrected on the wording in the Fire & Blood story: "inside" and not "between" the walls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Seams said:

Ah. When you refer to your point as, "... it's kinda moot," if you mean that I'm right and you are wrong, then we agree!

It's not. Frankly your theory doesn't really hold much water to me, even in a series as wrapped up in symbolism and foreshadowing as this series. My point is that GRRM can make his greenhouses work however he wants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

It's not. Frankly your theory doesn't really hold much water to me, even in a series as wrapped up in symbolism and foreshadowing as this series. My point is that GRRM can make his greenhouses work however he wants.

Thank you for so graciously backing down from your initial "basically makes no sense" assertion and your subsequent "moot" ramblings with non-evidence that had nothing to do with the books. I am glad that my book-based examples persuaded you to trust the author's intentions. As you say, "GRRM can make his greenhouses work however he wants," which was the point you originally disputed. Thinking and learning isn't so hard, if you put your mind to it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Seams said:

I agree that the yellow/green and white/red combinations are meaningful. From the initial analysis I have attempted of GRRM's color codes, the ways that two colors are combined seem to carry meaning: we know that red and white refers to Bloodraven, Jon's direwolf and weirwood trees. How the three of those fit together, and why they have a common color scheme, is not yet clear. I would add that when red and white are mixed - not just paired together - they make pink. Pink is associated with House Bolton.

The yellow and green in the Winterfell glass are both colors of the rainbow, so Renly's rainbow guard can offer some clues.

I will have to take some time to read the posts that you linked, but a quick answer for me and the colored glass in the story is that the glass can alter the surroundings. It works as a filter and changes how we see things. Color's can appear altered, becoming deeper or darker or brighter, depending on the light, the color of the glass and what is being highlighted. I have an idea that the pale blue rose of winter plays an important role with the yellow and green light filtered down onto it. This doesn't necessarily work against color theory in the story, I just think the items that allow light to shine through them to alter the surrounds might have a slightly different meaning.

We see colored glass in regards to Winterfell's glass gardens, sept's, brothels, homes and castles, lanterns. In our world, red lanterns can indicate a brothel, and I think that applies in this world as well, but we also have brothels that have windows that shine with different colors. Chataya's brothel is one that comes to mind, and I think it has red and yellow panes of glass. 

My thoughts are that in Chataya's brothel, when light shines through the red and yellow, the filter affect might make another item in the room appear vastly different.  Certain lights is blocked by certain filters. Yellow and green shining on blue appears black. Yellow shining through red appears white. This is my thoughts on the green and yellow light combined filter might affect the color of items within the glass gardens. However, if the panes are side by side would make a difference, versus if the panes of colored glass are layered on top of one another, which is something you might find in a colder climate. I had a great light filtering chart but right now I can't find the link. 

 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

Where I am going with this is that I suspect that granite is part of a wordplay group with garnets and pomegranates. It's not red, but the magic of wordplay could provide a link that tells us how GRRM is using it as a literary symbol.

Interesting how we all look at things differently. I have looked at the granite and what I focus on is that this is a stone that is very heat and fire resistant. Granite is also quite resistant to extreme cold, although if it goes from extreme heat to extreme cold quickly, it can crack. Winterfell seems important as I see it as something that is built for protection. More than a castle is meant to protect against invaders, I think Winterfell might be built to withstand both extreme heat and cold and protect those that live within it's walls and passages.

 

1 hour ago, Seams said:

I stand corrected on the wording in the Fire & Blood story: "inside" and not "between" the walls.

I liked where you were going with the possible wording, and didn't mean to derail your thoughts. I just thought the specific wording would be helpful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×