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EvanSol919

In defense of Rogar Baratheon

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I've noticed a lot of disdain for Rogar, some of which I don't think is fair so here is my rebuttal. 

First is the fact that he didn't support Aegon the Uncrowned. A lot of the major lords didn't support him. His father had been a weak king and Maegor had all the symbols of legitimacy - Aegon the Conqueror's crown, Blackfyre, the Iron Throne and Balerion. Also Visenya was still alive and she had Vhagar, the second largest dragon. Had Rogar supported Aegon at the time, he risked Storm's End's destruction. After Visenya's death Maegor could no longer use Vhagar so challenging him with 2, then 3 dragons was a much safer bet.

Second was his reaction to Jaehaerys and Alysanne's wedding. When their siblings married, it tore Westeros apart. Of course he and Alyssa would try to break it up. There's the story of Coryanne Wylde but we don't know exactly what happened; all of Fire and Blood is written from an unreliable narrator. Yes his suddenly decidedly to put Aerea on the throne was partially motivated by his wounded pride but I do think he was concerned about a second Faith uprising. 

Third is his relationship with Alyssa. Make no mistake, this was a political marriage meant to strengthen Jaehaerys' rule. It was not a love match. In regards to Alyssa's death, again we don't know what their marriage was like after they left for Storm's End. Yes he had affairs but many nobles did; again they did not marry for love. Some have demonized him for impregnating her after Boremund's birth. Alyssa was 47 and when women approach menopause, their menstrual cycles often become irregular. Maybe Alyssa thought that she had already gone through menopause and that having sex with Rogar was safe. Rhaena was angry that Rogar said to save the child but Maester Kyrie had said that there was nothing he could do for her. Was Rogar supposed to say no, don't try and save the child? Yes he should  have stayed during the c-section, I will not try and defend that. Given Rhaena's own relationships to pretty much everyone in her life, she was hardly one to criticize Rogar.

All in all, Rogar was a deeply flawed person but not the irredeemable man many in the fandom have labeled him. 

 

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Rogar Baratheon was a weak and cowardly windbag, all talk and no substance.

2 hours ago, EvanSol919 said:

I've noticed a lot of disdain for Rogar, some of which I don't think is fair so here is my rebuttal. 

First is the fact that he didn't support Aegon the Uncrowned. A lot of the major lords didn't support him. His father had been a weak king and Maegor had all the symbols of legitimacy - Aegon the Conqueror's crown, Blackfyre, the Iron Throne and Balerion. Also Visenya was still alive and she had Vhagar, the second largest dragon. Had Rogar supported Aegon at the time, he risked Storm's End's destruction. After Visenya's death Maegor could no longer use Vhagar so challenging him with 2, then 3 dragons was a much safer bet.

Don't think anybody ever made that point - even if they did, it is not exactly a strong point. However, in light of the windbag Rogar bragging he wanted to face Maegor the Cruel in single combat and that his axe was large enough to split a dragon's skull his reluctance to declare for Aegon the Uncrowned or support the Faith Militant and other rebels standing up against Maegor speaks for itself.

It also fits nicely with his other all talk and no show behavior when Jaehaerys I is crowned - first he is afraid of antagonizing Maegor's remaining loyalists by punishing all Maegor's people at court, then he is afraid of facing Septon Moon and Lords Oakheart and Rowan in the field.

2 hours ago, EvanSol919 said:

Second was his reaction to Jaehaerys and Alysanne's wedding. When their siblings married, it tore Westeros apart. Of course he and Alyssa would try to break it up. There's the story of Coryanne Wylde but we don't know exactly what happened; all of Fire and Blood is written from an unreliable narrator. Yes his suddenly decidedly to put Aerea on the throne was partially motivated by his wounded pride but I do think he was concerned about a second Faith uprising

There is no textual evidence for the bold. Alyssa was afraid of that, sure, but she cared about her children. Rogar did not.

Rogar suddenly declaring Princess Aerea the heiress after he has previously dismissed her claim because of her age and gender shows how corrupt a character he is.

2 hours ago, EvanSol919 said:

Third is his relationship with Alyssa. Make no mistake, this was a political marriage meant to strengthen Jaehaerys' rule. It was not a love match. In regards to Alyssa's death, again we don't know what their marriage was like after they left for Storm's End. Yes he had affairs but many nobles did; again they did not marry for love.

Rogar definitely never loved Alyssa. But Alyssa seems to have loved Rogar. It is not spelled out directly, but her reactions after Rogar's ultimate betrayal definitely indicates that she either loved the man or was at least very fond of him, trusting him with herself and her children.

There is also no indication that this was a political marriage on Alyssa's part. She had no reason to marry the man considering that the regency was rather short. If Alyssa and Rogar had married clandestinely back at Storm's End while Maegor was still alive it could have been a political marriage - the price Rogar demanded for his support. But that's not what happened, is it?

2 hours ago, EvanSol919 said:

Some have demonized him for impregnating her after Boremund's birth. Alyssa was 47 and when women approach menopause, their menstrual cycles often become irregular. Maybe Alyssa thought that she had already gone through menopause and that having sex with Rogar was safe. Rhaena was angry that Rogar said to save the child but Maester Kyrie had said that there was nothing he could do for her. Was Rogar supposed to say no, don't try and save the child? Yes he should  have stayed during the c-section, I will not try and defend that. Given Rhaena's own relationships to pretty much everyone in her life, she was hardly one to criticize Rogar.

Rhaena's criticism is in no way less accurate because she herself had severe issues with people, too. We have Gyldayn telling us that all warmth in the Rogar-Alyssa died when she chose her children over her husband, and Jaehaerys I even went as far as to punish his mother (or at least force her to continue her marriage with him) by sending her back to her husband. It got a tidbit better after the birth of Boremund, but the crucial fact here is that nobody ever said anything about menopause, etc. in the book. Alyssa was thought to be beyond her childbearing years when she had Boremund, and it was a difficult pregnancy. So any husband caring more about his wife than another son would have refrained from intercourse until it was essentially confirmed that Alyssa could no longer get pregnant.

Not to mention the possibility of them using moon tea to prevent pregnancies.

2 hours ago, EvanSol919 said:

All in all, Rogar was a deeply flawed person but not the irredeemable man many in the fandom have labeled him. 

Not sure if anyone ever called Rogar irredeemable, but it is quite clear that he never redeemed himself. He was pardoned for his treason when he should have either been executed or sent to the Wall, he didn't do anything of note or relevant after his disgrace and subsequent undeserved pardon, and then he died of a rather unpleasant sickness and did not get his death in battle.

In fact, the way Rogar and his brothers behave strongly indicates that the Targaryens should have either destroyed or attainted the Baratheon bloodline back then, considering their belligerent and treasonous traits. Because even when one concedes that Robert overthrowing Aerys II was not a bad thing, allowing those people to gain the throne was essentially the worst that could happen to the Realm - we see this in the self-destructive tendencies of Robert and Stannis and Renly.

The Targaryens were fucked up, too, but they are nowhere near as fucked up as the Baratheons.

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11 hours ago, EvanSol919 said:

I've noticed a lot of disdain for Rogar, some of which I don't think is fair so here is my rebuttal. 

First is the fact that he didn't support Aegon the Uncrowned. A lot of the major lords didn't support him. His father had been a weak king and Maegor had all the symbols of legitimacy - Aegon the Conqueror's crown, Blackfyre, the Iron Throne and Balerion. Also Visenya was still alive and she had Vhagar, the second largest dragon. Had Rogar supported Aegon at the time, he risked Storm's End's destruction. After Visenya's death Maegor could no longer use Vhagar so challenging him with 2, then 3 dragons was a much safer bet.

Second was his reaction to Jaehaerys and Alysanne's wedding. When their siblings married, it tore Westeros apart. Of course he and Alyssa would try to break it up. There's the story of Coryanne Wylde but we don't know exactly what happened; all of Fire and Blood is written from an unreliable narrator. Yes his suddenly decidedly to put Aerea on the throne was partially motivated by his wounded pride but I do think he was concerned about a second Faith uprising. 

Third is his relationship with Alyssa. Make no mistake, this was a political marriage meant to strengthen Jaehaerys' rule. It was not a love match. In regards to Alyssa's death, again we don't know what their marriage was like after they left for Storm's End. Yes he had affairs but many nobles did; again they did not marry for love. Some have demonized him for impregnating her after Boremund's birth. Alyssa was 47 and when women approach menopause, their menstrual cycles often become irregular. Maybe Alyssa thought that she had already gone through menopause and that having sex with Rogar was safe. Rhaena was angry that Rogar said to save the child but Maester Kyrie had said that there was nothing he could do for her. Was Rogar supposed to say no, don't try and save the child? Yes he should  have stayed during the c-section, I will not try and defend that. Given Rhaena's own relationships to pretty much everyone in her life, she was hardly one to criticize Rogar.

All in all, Rogar was a deeply flawed person but not the irredeemable man many in the fandom have labeled him. 

 

I find his character and that of Alyssa very well written wonderful additions to the story, showing it is possible to write compelling dramatic human story, without resorting to flash of battles, or cosmic terror.

My opinion is that he is a flawed character, but has good intentions at heart, though he may be underestimating young Jaehaerys, Alyssane and Alyssa, though he has a reason when accounting troubled reign of Aenys and Maegor and wars of faith.

I absolutely don't see issue in him sending  Coryanne Wylde to seduce young Jaehaerys, it was most painless option at the time to try and stop marriage that could had ignited rebellions again.  

In general House Baratheon was foremost pillar of that dynasty, that would prove to be valuable ally in many occasions despite tense power dynamic, though Targaryens always tended to do slight them, until Mad King and Rhaegar gone too far. 

Edited by Eltharion21

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No he just a man that got power and wanted to keep it. Look how easy he dismissed things that didn't suit his needs:

 

1. Says fighting all Maegor's supports and Moon is expensive but doesn't mind splashing on an expensive ass wedding

2. He dismisses Rhaena's and her daughter's claim, but when Big J ain't on his team he all of a sudden brings it up.

3. Boasts of wanting to battle Maegor in single combat, yet never made any real attempt to do so (i know they were prepping for war, but meh)

Still as i said no need to defend him he was just as you get a power hunger lord that wanted more and got burned when he reached too far.

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On 8/7/2019 at 3:20 AM, Lord Varys said:

Don't think anybody ever made that point - even if they did, it is not exactly a strong point. However, in light of the windbag Rogar bragging he wanted to face Maegor the Cruel in single combat and that his axe was large enough to split a dragon's skull his reluctance to declare for Aegon the Uncrowned or support the Faith Militant and other rebels standing up against Maegor speaks for itself.

One of the issues i keep seeing pointed against Rogar is that he had brains, Rogar might want to fight Maegor but that doesn't mean he wanted to be in a clear losing side and Aegon seemed everything but promising during those days,  he did however protect Alyssa and her kids at risk on his and kin lives,  Storm's End unlike Casterly Rock, is not Balerion proof.

Btw why would he want to support the Faith?? 

 

 

On 8/7/2019 at 3:20 AM, Lord Varys said:

It also fits nicely with his other all talk and no show behavior when Jaehaerys I is crowned - first he is afraid of antagonizing Maegor's remaining loyalists by punishing all Maegor's people at court, then he is afraid of facing Septon Moon and Lords Oakheart and Rowan in the field.

Quote

Well, that's just twisting the facts. You don't particularly like the Baratheons so you tend to be blind by bias but this is just nonsense.

 

In the First Case, Alyssa wants to take the Alicent approach, an approach that is bad, very very bad and was what cost the Greens the Throne.

 

[..] With the dungeons of the Red Keep full to bursting, the question arose as to what should be done with the prisoners. If Maegor were to be counted as usurper, then his entire reign was unlawful and those who had supported him were guilty of treason and must needs be put to death. Such was the course urged by Queen Alyssa. The Dowager Queen had lost two sons to Maegor’s cruelty and was of no mind to grant the men who had carried out his edicts even the dignity of a trial. “When my boy Viserys was tortured and slain, these men stood by silently and spoke no word of protest,” she said. “Why should we listen to them now?”

 

It goes without saying that this approach is bad and can't lead to anything good but more war and more needless deaths,  Rogar's approach is the correct one but somehow because it does not include killing everyone á la Alicent is cowardice...

 

Against her fury stood Lord Rogar Baratheon, Hand of the King and Protector of the Realm. Whilst his lordship agreed that Maegor’s men were surely deserving of punishment, he pointed out that should their captives be executed, the usurper’s remaining loyalists would be disinclined to bend the knee. Lord Rogar would have no choice but to march on their castles one by one and winkle each man out of his stronghold with steel and fire. “It can be done, but at what cost?” he asked. “It would be a bloody business, one that might harden hearts against us.” Let Maegor’s men stand trial and confess their treason, the Protector urged. Those found guilty of the worst crimes could be put to death; for the remainder, let them tender hostages to ensure their future loyalty, and surrender some of their lands and castles. The wisdom of Lord Rogar’s approach was plain to most of the young king’s other supporters, yet his views might not have prevailed had not Jaehaerys himself taken a hand. Though only ten-and-four, the boy king proved from the first that he would not be content to sit by meekly whilst others ruled in his name. With his maester, his sister Alysanne, and a handful of young knights by his side, Jaehaerys climbed the Iron Throne and summoned his lords to attend him. “There will be no trials, no torture, and no executions,” he announced to them. “The realm must see that I am not my uncle. I shall not begin my reign by bathing in blood. Some came to my banners early, some late. Let the rest come now.”

 

I'm honestly wonder what is wrong with this,  given that even Jaeharys would take an even further step.

 

 

About the Moon Septon,  this is what he says.

 

[..] Across the realm in King’s Landing, Jaehaerys and his counselors considered how to rid the realm of this scourge. The boy king and his sisters, Rhaena and Alysanne, all had dragons, and some felt the best way to deal with Septon Moon was the way Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters had dealt with the Two Kings on the Field of Fire. Jaehaerys had no taste for such slaughter, however, and his mother, Queen Alyssa, flatly forbade it, reminding them of the fate of Rhaenys Targaryen and her dragon in Dorne. Lord Rogar, the King’s Hand, said, with some reluctance, that he would lead his own host across the Reach and disperse Moon’s men by force of arms…though it would mean pitting his stormlanders, and whatever other forces he might gather, against Lords Rowan and Oakheart and their knights and men-at-arms, as well as the Poor Fellows. “Like as not, we will win,” the Protector said, “but not without cost.”

 

Again, the problem is?? That he is aware of the cost such battle would mean for his own Kingdom?? 

 

 

 

On 8/7/2019 at 3:20 AM, Lord Varys said:

There is no textual evidence for the bold. Alyssa was afraid of that, sure, but she cared about her children. Rogar did not.

Rogar suddenly declaring Princess Aerea the heiress after he has previously dismissed her claim because of her age and gender shows how corrupt a character he is.

Or maybe that it was likely that Westeros and the Faith would rather a girl child as ruler than a incestuos couple.

Rogar change of mind shows that he's a man easily carried by pride and that he's the kind of man who would go for something if he believes he must to.

 

 

On 8/7/2019 at 3:20 AM, Lord Varys said:

Rogar definitely never loved Alyssa. But Alyssa seems to have loved Rogar. It is not spelled out directly, but her reactions after Rogar's ultimate betrayal definitely indicates that she either loved the man or was at least very fond of him, trusting him with herself and her children.

 

Evidence for this?? 

 

On 8/7/2019 at 3:20 AM, Lord Varys said:

 There is also no indication that this was a political marriage on Alyssa's part. She had no reason to marry the man considering that the regency was rather short. If Alyssa and Rogar had married clandestinely back at Storm's End while Maegor was still alive it could have been a political marriage - the price Rogar demanded for his support. But that's not what happened, is it?

Quote

The more it seems that the marriage was indeed a love one, but not all marriages for love end well or are even long lasting.

 

 

On 8/7/2019 at 3:20 AM, Lord Varys said:

Rhaena's criticism is in no way less accurate because she herself had severe issues with people, too. We have Gyldayn telling us that all warmth in the Rogar-Alyssa died when she chose her children over her husband, and Jaehaerys I even went as far as to punish his mother (or at least force her to continue her marriage with him) by sending her back to her husband. It got a tidbit better after the birth of Boremund, but the crucial fact here is that nobody ever said anything about menopause, etc. in the book. Alyssa was thought to be beyond her childbearing years when she had Boremund, and it was a difficult pregnancy. So any husband caring more about his wife than another son would have refrained from intercourse until it was essentially confirmed that Alyssa could no longer get pregnant.

Not to mention the possibility of them using moon tea to prevent pregnancies

 

Rhaena's criticism, as many of this kind of criticism often do, entirely removes any kind of agency of the other side. 

 

Amidst the joy, there was concern as well. Alyssa was not as strong as she had been; her time as Queen Regent had taken a toll on her, and her second marriage had not brought her the happiness she had once hoped for. The prospect of a child warmed Lord Rogar’s heart, however, and he cast off his anger and repented of his infidelities to stay by his wife’s side. Alyssa herself was fearful, mindful of the last babe she had borne to King Aenys, the little girl Vaella who had died in the cradle. “I cannot suffer that again,” she told her lord husband. “It would rip my heart apart.” But the child, when he came early the following year, would prove to be robust and healthy, a big red-faced boy born with a fuzz of jet-black hair and “a squall that could be heard from Dorne to the Wall.” Lord Rogar, who had long ago put aside any hopes of having children by Alyssa, named his son Boremund.

 

This is what we have about their latter stage, that Roger stopped being an asshole and started to stand at his wife side,  if Alyssa didn't want another kid, one should think that she would just drink moontea and that's that.

 

 

On 8/7/2019 at 3:20 AM, Lord Varys said:

Not sure if anyone ever called Rogar irredeemable, but it is quite clear that he never redeemed himself. He was pardoned for his treason when he should have either been executed or sent to the Wall, he didn't do anything of note or relevant after his disgrace and subsequent undeserved pardon, and then he died of a rather unpleasant sickness and did not get his death in battle.

 

Not so sure, Rogar thought that Jaeharys would destroy House Targ, and if not because the Seven prayers deus ex,  the acquiescence of the Faith would've been the least of his worries because most likely, another moon septon would've risen.

Killing or disgracing Rogar achieved between nothing and less,  pardoning him not only  meant regaining and ally and a friend but  assuring that the Baratheons stood with Alyssane if things went south.

 

 

On 8/7/2019 at 3:20 AM, Lord Varys said:

 In fact, the way Rogar and his brothers behave strongly indicates that the Targaryens should have either destroyed or attainted the Baratheon bloodline back then, considering their belligerent and treasonous traits. Because even when one concedes that Robert overthrowing Aerys II was not a bad thing,

I mean what should i say?? The Baratheons only showed their "belligerent and treasonous traits" when they happened to be fucked by the Targs, you see.

When you protect a boy when that could mean that a huge ass dragon comes for you and later said boy spits in your face and basically puts everything you all have been working for, just because he wants to bang his sister. You start thinking that mayhaps you haven't taken the best decision. When you defend a King, at the cost o reducing your own rights and said King's son spits on your face and said King let it bem you start thinking that perhaps said King and his family aren't the best option for you,  when a mad King wants you and your bestie dead for no reason and his son has kidnapped your bethrothed, you start thinking that maybe is time for them to go.

But ofc, if we knew that were fucked when they showed those belligerent and treasonous traits, everything falls apart, but if you say that the Targs should've killed them because they would indeed stand up, then ofc, they should've.

 

 

 

On 8/7/2019 at 3:20 AM, Lord Varys said:

Because even when one concedes that Robert overthrowing Aerys II was not a bad thing, allowing those people to gain the throne was essentially the worst that could happen to the Realm - we see this in the self-destructive tendencies of Robert and Stannis and Renly.

Neither Robert, nor Stannis nor Renly start the War, nor they cuckold the King and pretends they are legit.

 

 

On 8/7/2019 at 3:20 AM, Lord Varys said:

 The Targaryens were fucked up, too, but they are nowhere near as fucked up as the Baratheons.

:rofl:The day a Baratheon drinks wildfire pretending to reborn as a dragon or try to destroy a whole city for the lol, we can have this coversation seriously.

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2 minutes ago, frenin said:

One of the issues i keep seeing pointed against Rogar is that he had brains, Rogar might want to fight Maegor but that doesn't mean he wanted to be in a clear losing side and Aegon seemed everything but promising during those days,  he did however protect Alyssa and her kids at risk on his and kin lives,  Storm's End unlike Casterly Rock, is not Balerion proof.

We don't know when exactly Lord Rogar took in Alyssa. Might be when she fled Dragonstone, might be later. We don't know where they were in the intervening years. That's a huge flaw in the story because it is utterly ridiculous that two dragons could be hidden at Storm's End for years from a woman as efficient as Tyanna.

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

Btw why would he want to support the Faith?? 

Because they could have given him the power and support needed to actually face Maegor in battle put him down?

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

In the First Case, Alyssa wants to take the Alicent approach, an approach that is bad, very very bad and was what cost the Greens the Throne.

 

[..] With the dungeons of the Red Keep full to bursting, the question arose as to what should be done with the prisoners. If Maegor were to be counted as usurper, then his entire reign was unlawful and those who had supported him were guilty of treason and must needs be put to death. Such was the course urged by Queen Alyssa. The Dowager Queen had lost two sons to Maegor’s cruelty and was of no mind to grant the men who had carried out his edicts even the dignity of a trial. “When my boy Viserys was tortured and slain, these men stood by silently and spoke no word of protest,” she said. “Why should we listen to them now?”

 

It goes without saying that this approach is bad and can't lead to anything good but more war and more needless deaths,  Rogar's approach is the correct one but somehow because it does not include killing everyone á la Alicent is cowardice...

 

Against her fury stood Lord Rogar Baratheon, Hand of the King and Protector of the Realm. Whilst his lordship agreed that Maegor’s men were surely deserving of punishment, he pointed out that should their captives be executed, the usurper’s remaining loyalists would be disinclined to bend the knee. Lord Rogar would have no choice but to march on their castles one by one and winkle each man out of his stronghold with steel and fire. “It can be done, but at what cost?” he asked. “It would be a bloody business, one that might harden hearts against us.” Let Maegor’s men stand trial and confess their treason, the Protector urged. Those found guilty of the worst crimes could be put to death; for the remainder, let them tender hostages to ensure their future loyalty, and surrender some of their lands and castles. The wisdom of Lord Rogar’s approach was plain to most of the young king’s other supporters, yet his views might not have prevailed had not Jaehaerys himself taken a hand. Though only ten-and-four, the boy king proved from the first that he would not be content to sit by meekly whilst others ruled in his name. With his maester, his sister Alysanne, and a handful of young knights by his side, Jaehaerys climbed the Iron Throne and summoned his lords to attend him. “There will be no trials, no torture, and no executions,” he announced to them. “The realm must see that I am not my uncle. I shall not begin my reign by bathing in blood. Some came to my banners early, some late. Let the rest come now.”

 

I'm honestly wonder what is wrong with this,  given that even Jaeharys would take an even further step.

I said that this underlines that Rogar was a coward, not eager to fight. And I stand by that. I never said it would have been wise to take the field against those people.

And I find it rather remarkable that any self-respecting supporter of Jaehaerys I (much less a Baratheon lord who supposedly liked fighting and bloodshed) would shy awy from putting down the few remaining followers of Maegor the Cruel. Nearly the entire Realm abandoned Maegor in the end, so it should have been rather easy to destroy them all - and the cost would have been relatively minor.

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

About the Moon Septon,  this is what he says.

 

[..] Across the realm in King’s Landing, Jaehaerys and his counselors considered how to rid the realm of this scourge. The boy king and his sisters, Rhaena and Alysanne, all had dragons, and some felt the best way to deal with Septon Moon was the way Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters had dealt with the Two Kings on the Field of Fire. Jaehaerys had no taste for such slaughter, however, and his mother, Queen Alyssa, flatly forbade it, reminding them of the fate of Rhaenys Targaryen and her dragon in Dorne. Lord Rogar, the King’s Hand, said, with some reluctance, that he would lead his own host across the Reach and disperse Moon’s men by force of arms…though it would mean pitting his stormlanders, and whatever other forces he might gather, against Lords Rowan and Oakheart and their knights and men-at-arms, as well as the Poor Fellows. “Like as not, we will win,” the Protector said, “but not without cost.”

 

Again, the problem is?? That he is aware of the cost such battle would mean for his own Kingdom?? 

He doesn't have a kingdom, he is just the first servant of his new king. The problem again, is, that reveals his cowardice when arguing in this manner.

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

Or maybe that it was likely that Westeros and the Faith would rather a girl child as ruler than a incestuos couple.

Rogar change of mind shows that he's a man easily carried by pride and that he's the kind of man who would go for something if he believes he must to.

No, it shows that he is willing to reverse very important decisions on whim while not being willing to fight for the cause of his king out of cowardice in other cases. When he is personally pissed he is willing to go to great lengths but in other cases he just talks big.

Alyssa cares about the Faith's opinion of her children's marriage - Rogar only cares about the fact that he can no longer marry Alysanne to his brother and that Jaehaerys I didn't do what he wanted him to do.

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

Evidence for this?? 

How about him fucking a couple of whores at his wedding? Or the way he presumes to talk to his 'lady wife' when she doesn't agree with him.

The whole Alyssa-Rogar story is illustrating how Alyssa is the strong one and Rogar is the weak one - all he can do is talk big. He never does anything of note, and always backs down when faced by really powerful people - Maegor, Jaehaerys I, Rhaena, his own wife.

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

The more it seems that the marriage was indeed a love one, but not all marriages for love end well or are even long lasting.

LOL, where is the evidence that this is the case for Alyssa and Rogar??

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

Rhaena's criticism, as many of this kind of criticism often do, entirely removes any kind of agency of the other side. 

 

Amidst the joy, there was concern as well. Alyssa was not as strong as she had been; her time as Queen Regent had taken a toll on her, and her second marriage had not brought her the happiness she had once hoped for. The prospect of a child warmed Lord Rogar’s heart, however, and he cast off his anger and repented of his infidelities to stay by his wife’s side. Alyssa herself was fearful, mindful of the last babe she had borne to King Aenys, the little girl Vaella who had died in the cradle. “I cannot suffer that again,” she told her lord husband. “It would rip my heart apart.” But the child, when he came early the following year, would prove to be robust and healthy, a big red-faced boy born with a fuzz of jet-black hair and “a squall that could be heard from Dorne to the Wall.” Lord Rogar, who had long ago put aside any hopes of having children by Alyssa, named his son Boremund.

 

This is what we have about their latter stage, that Roger stopped being an asshole and started to stand at his wife side,  if Alyssa didn't want another kid, one should think that she would just drink moontea and that's that.

You can stay by the side of your wife without fucking her, you know. And Rogar Baratheon was not at the side of his wife when Alyssa died, or was he? Another proof for his cowardice and weakness.

I never doubted that things got better when Alyssa got pregnant and Rogar eventually had Boremund. So this isn't an issue. But that is just evidence that ruin of a marriage was somewhat less ruinous after that birth - not that it was ever happy.

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

Not so sure, Rogar thought that Jaeharys would destroy House Targ, and if not because the Seven prayers deus ex,  the acquiescence of the Faith would've been the least of his worries because most likely, another moon septon would've risen.

If you are dependent on as changeable and disloyal a man as Rogar Baratheon to keep your throne you are truly lost. Lord Rogar himself never thought his king would need him in the future or that his king could not afford to take his head, so you have no case there.

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

Killing or disgracing Rogar achieved between nothing and less,  pardoning him not only  meant regaining and ally and a friend but  assuring that the Baratheons stood with Alyssane if things went south.

There is no indication that such a motivation motivated Jaehaerys I.

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

I mean what should i say?? The Baratheons only showed their "belligerent and treasonous traits" when they happened to be fucked by the Targs, you see.

When you protect a boy when that could mean that a huge ass dragon comes for you and later said boy spits in your face and basically puts everything you all have been working for, just because he wants to bang his sister. You start thinking that mayhaps you haven't taken the best decision. When you defend a King, at the cost o reducing your own rights and said King's son spits on your face and said King let it bem you start thinking that perhaps said King and his family aren't the best option for you,  when a mad King wants you and your bestie dead for no reason and his son has kidnapped your bethrothed, you start thinking that maybe is time for them to go.

But ofc, if we knew that were fucked when they showed those belligerent and treasonous traits, everything falls apart, but if you say that the Targs should've killed them because they would indeed stand up, then ofc, they should've.

It is not up to Rogar Baratheon to decide who the king is to marry - especially if he presumed to marry the king's mother without the king's permission.

Rogar should have been the last Baratheon lord of Storm's End. Jaehaerys I should have given the Stormlands to a loyal man.

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

The day a Baratheon drinks wildfire pretending to reborn as a dragon or try to destroy a whole city for the lol, we can have this coversation seriously.

Name a Targaryen who was as capriciously malevolent as Maris Baratheon, goading another man into a murder just because she felt slighted, or as shitty as Borys Baratheon (turning against both his full brother and nephew, attacking his homeland out of spite).

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know when exactly Lord Rogar took in Alyssa. Might be when she fled Dragonstone, might be later. We don't know where they were in the intervening years. That's a huge flaw in the story because it is utterly ridiculous that two dragons could be hidden at Storm's End for years from a woman as efficient as Tyanna.

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We do know he took them and the fact that he was ready to took them and their dragons, especially one as huge as Vermithor, tells something.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Because they could have given him the power and support needed to actually face Maegor in battle put him down?

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But that would've meant that Rogar agreed with the HS, we don't know Rogar's opinions on the incest but we do know that he didn't want to bring the Targs down, which was the Faith's aim.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I said that this underlines that Rogar was a coward, not eager to fight. And I stand by that. I never said it would have been wise to take the field against those people.

And I find it rather remarkable that any self-respecting supporter of Jaehaerys I (much less a Baratheon lord who supposedly liked fighting and bloodshed) would shy awy from putting down the few remaining followers of Maegor the Cruel. Nearly the entire Realm abandoned Maegor in the end, so it should have been rather easy to destroy them all - and the cost would have been relatively minor.

 

And i say the idea that he was a coward, because he didn't want to take a clerly bad decision is rather childish. Both Baelor Breakspear and Tywin give similar advices, are they cowards too?? Or is only appliable to Baratheons??

They clearly didn't think the cost would've been minor and they thought that the show would probably end backfiring, 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

He doesn't have a kingdom, he is just the first servant of his new king. The problem again, is, that reveals his cowardice when arguing in this manner.

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Aren't the Stormlands his Kingdom?? I thought they were, so you want a mindless killing machine right?? Anything but, let's kill some dudes is cowardice for you, he's not saying he's not going to face them, he's saying that if it's necessary he would face them but a lot of lives will be lost, first time i hear that being aware of the danger and the toll of lives is cowardice.

Seriously, did he say that he would not fight??  In what world warning about the risks of a battle is cowardice?? What kind of Dothraki mentality is this??

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

No, it shows that he is willing to reverse very important decisions on whim while not being willing to fight for the cause of his king out of cowardice in other cases. When he is personally pissed he is willing to go to great lengths but in other cases he just talks big.

Alyssa cares about the Faith's opinion of her children's marriage - Rogar only cares about the fact that he can no longer marry Alysanne to his brother and that Jaehaerys I didn't do what he wanted him to do.

The idea that he's not willing to fight for his King, is yours and only yours, because reluctance and unwillingness aren't synonimous neither are caution and cowardice, hurt pride took a very important role in his decision, but as he said, he was doing what he was best for the Realm and he thought that Jaeharys would start another civil war.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

How about him fucking a couple of whores at his wedding? Or the way he presumes to talk to his 'lady wife' when she doesn't agree with him.

The whole Alyssa-Rogar story is illustrating how Alyssa is the strong one and Rogar is the weak one - all he can do is talk big. He never does anything of note, and always backs down when faced by really powerful people - Maegor, Jaehaerys I, Rhaena, his own wife.

 

[...] The most notorious of his lordship’s entertainments occurred two days before the ceremony, however. Though no record of it exists in any court chronicle, tales told by servants and repeated for many years thereafter amongst the smallfolk claim that Lord Rogar’s brothers had brought seven virgins across the narrow sea from the finest pleasure houses of Lys. Queen Alyssa had surrendered her own maidenhood many years before to Aenys Targaryen, so there could be no question of Lord Rogar deflowering her on their wedding night. The Lysene maidens were meant to make up for that lack. If the whispers heard about court afterward were true, his lordship supposedly plucked the flowers of four of the girls before exhaustion and drink did him in; his brothers, nephews, and friends did for the other three, along with twoscore older beauties who had sailed with them from Lys.

 

Not only is presented to us as a gossip but is presented to us but as gossip with the rationalization that Rogar needed to deflower someone in his bedding because Alyssa was already deflowered, sexist and stupid??  100%  Prove of lack of love?? Not so much.

The way he presumes to talk to his Lady wife is in no way different that Ned shutting off any of Cat's questions about Jon's mother, is the entitlement they have grown up with, is in no way lack of love. About the rest... anyway.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, where is the evidence that this is the case for Alyssa and Rogar??

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The fact that they marry when they have no reason not urge to do so??

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

You can stay by the side of your wife without fucking her, you know. And Rogar Baratheon was not at the side of his wife when Alyssa died, or was he? Another proof for his cowardice and weakness.

I never doubted that things got better when Alyssa got pregnant and Rogar eventually had Boremund. So this isn't an issue. But that is just evidence that ruin of a marriage was somewhat less ruinous after that birth - not that it was ever happy.

By parts.

Rogar was weak by not staying with his wife on her deathbed, not all people can and it takes a very different kind of strenght seeing  and dealing with the loss of a loved ones,  there is a reason than after Aemon's death Jaeharys went often drunk to his bed,  and people have very different ways of grieving.

 

You can stand by the side of your wife without fucking her, but as far we can know, that's not what they want.

Yours is the idea that it was ever happy.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

If you are dependent on as changeable and disloyal a man as Rogar Baratheon to keep your throne you are truly lost. Lord Rogar himself never thought his king would need him in the future or that his king could not afford to take his head, so you have no case there.

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Rogar was none of that so i think one should be fine.

Rogar doesn't need to think of a possibility for that possibility to exist.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that such a motivation motivated Jaehaerys I.

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Except his words right??

[...] “Treasonous actions deserve punishment. Foolish words are another matter. If you truly desire to go to the Wall, I will not stop you. The Night’s Watch needs men as strong as you. But I would sooner you remain here, in my service. I would not sit upon this throne if not for you, all the realm knows that. And I still have need of you. The realm has need of you. When the Dragon died and my father donned the crown, he was beset on all sides by would-be kings and rebel lords. The same may befall me, and for the same reason…to test my resolve, my will, my strength. My mother believes that godly men throughout the realm will rise against me when my marriage is made known. Mayhaps so. To meet these tests, I need good men around me, warriors willing to fight for me, to die for me…and for my queen, if need be. Are you such a man?” Lord Rogar, thunderstruck at the king’s words, looked up and said, “I am, Your Grace,” in a voice thick with emotion.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not up to Rogar Baratheon to decide who the king is to marry - especially if he presumed to marry the king's mother without the king's permission.

Rogar should have been the last Baratheon lord of Storm's End. Jaehaerys I should have given the Stormlands to a loyal man

Geez, I thought that that was precisely the role of the Hand of the King and the Regents ruling over a minor King.

Jaeharys should've never ascend to the Throne, he usurped Aerea's throne. Sometimes our wishes don't turn up to be true.;)

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Name a Targaryen who was as capriciously malevolent as Maris Baratheon, goading another man into a murder just because she felt slighted, or as shitty as Borys Baratheon (turning against both his full brother and nephew, attacking his homeland out of spite).

Maris Baratheon started the Dance lmao, capriciously malevolent,  this reminds me of Viserra is femme fatale,  Maris taunted Aemond, the other was as stupid to kill his own nephew. Btw, weren't you the one saying that you believe Saera was a psycho??

As shitty as Borys?? Maegor, Aemond, Aegon 2, Daemon Aegon IV, Aegor, Brynden, Aerion, Aerys. Jury's still out for Shiera and her real role in the Blackfyre Rebellion.

As i said, the moment we have a Blackfyre drinking wildfire and wanting to burn the whole KL, we can have a serious chat about this.

 

 

 

Edited by frenin

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6 minutes ago, frenin said:

We do know he took them and the fact that he was ready to took them and their dragons, especially one as huge as Vermithor, tells something.

No, it does not while we don't know when he took them in. If he took them in five minutes after he had realized that Maegor would fall down anyway he risked literally nothing.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

But that would've meant that Rogar agreed with the HS, we don't know Rogar's opinions on the incest but we do know that he didn't want to bring the Targs down, which was the Faith's aim.

Rogar could have become king himself that way, no? Something he denies he wanted but I maintain he actually would have had nothing against. That's why he married Queen Alyssa, and that's why he tried to put Aerea on the throne.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

And i say the idea that he was a coward, because he didn't want to take a clerly bad decision is rather childish. Both Baelor Breakspear and Tywin give similar advices, are they cowards too?? Or is only appliable to Baratheons??

They clearly didn't think the cost would've been minor and they thought that the show would probably end backfiring, 

Both Baelor Breakspear and Tywin are never described as men who are great warriors who like to kill people with axes or dreamed about facing certain cruel kings in battle.

Not to mention that the situation is rather different there - Maegor essentially had no important/relevant followers left, whereas the Black Dragon and the War of the Five Kings ripped the Realm apart. Daeron II and Joffrey could not afford killing all the followers of their enemies ... Jaehaerys I could have. As could Tywin when he extinguished the Reynes and Tarbecks.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

Aren't the Stormlands his Kingdom?? I thought they were, so you want a mindless killing machine right?? Anything but, let's kill some dudes is cowardice for you, he's not saying he's not going to face them, he's saying that if it's necessary he would face them but a lot of lives will be lost, first time i hear that being aware of the danger and the toll of lives is cowardice.

He is looking for excuses to be not forced to fight a modest military campaign.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

Seriously, did he say that he would not fight??  In what world warning about the risks of a battle is cowardice?? What kind of Dothraki mentality is this??

It is talk a real warrior would rarely give. If at all. Robert would never talk like that.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

The idea that he's not willing to fight for his King, is yours and only yours, because reluctance and unwillingness aren't synonimous, hurt pride took a very important role in his decision, but as he said, he was doing what he was best for the Realm and he thought that Jaeharys would start another civil war.

He never actually fought for his king. His king ended fighting with him in a stupid campaign that came about in part because Lord Rogar couldn't even rule his own brother - another sign of incompetence and weakness.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

[...] The most notorious of his lordship’s entertainments occurred two days before the ceremony, however. Though no record of it exists in any court chronicle, tales told by servants and repeated for many years thereafter amongst the smallfolk claim that Lord Rogar’s brothers had brought seven virgins across the narrow sea from the finest pleasure houses of Lys. Queen Alyssa had surrendered her own maidenhood many years before to Aenys Targaryen, so there could be no question of Lord Rogar deflowering her on their wedding night. The Lysene maidens were meant to make up for that lack. If the whispers heard about court afterward were true, his lordship supposedly plucked the flowers of four of the girls before exhaustion and drink did him in; his brothers, nephews, and friends did for the other three, along with twoscore older beauties who had sailed with them from Lys.

 

Not only is presented to us as a gossip but is presented to us but as gossip with the rationalization that Rogar needed to deflower someone in his bedding because Alyssa was already deflowered, sexist and stupid??  100%  Prove of lack of love?? Not so much.

I see no indication that this didn't happen. And we have other confirmation that he had mistresses and such before his wife got pregnant.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

The way he presumes to talk to his Lady wife is in no way different that Ned shutting off any of Cat's questions about Jon's mother, is the entitlement they have grown up with, is in no way lack of love. About the rest... anyway.

Alyssa Velaryon was the Queen Regent of the Seven Kingdoms, not the average lady wife. He was serving her, not the other way around. He eventually learned that, but he had to learn it the hard way. If he had loved her he would have never forced to choose between her children and him ... which he did.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

The fact that they marry when they have no reason not urge to do so??

Where do you get the idea that they had no urge to marry?? I'd say Alyssa loved the man ... and he loved being the husband of the Queen Regent. That's more than enough of an urge.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

By parts.

Rogar was weak by not staying with his wife on her deathbed, not all people can and it takes a very different kind of strenght seeing  and dealing with the loss of a loved ones,  there is a reason than after Aemon's death Jaeharys went often drunk to his bed,  and people have very different ways of grieving.

Like I said, he was weak and a windbag. I don't care about different kinds of strengths and other such apology nonsense. The woman was his wife, pregnant with his child and dying because of that pregnancy which was his fault. We don't have any indication that Rogar Baratheon ever grieved for his second wife, by the way. He could not see her dying - that indicates a fear of death and dying people, not anything like grief of sadness. It also means his fear of death was greater than whatever love you think he had for Alyssa - because that clearly could get him to sit by her bed.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

You can stand by the side of your wife without fucking her, but as far we can know, that's not what they want.

Yours is the idea that it was ever happy.

We know Alyssa never knew any happiness after her confronation with Rogar. She was a broken woman after that, because he had forced her to choose between her children and him. And she didn't get better just because he treated her less like shit after she had given him a son.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

Rogar was none of that so i think one should be fine.

Rogar doesn't need to think of a possibility for that possibility to exist.

LOL, the man was a joke. One day Jaehaerys I is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and Westeros is not Dorne, and the next the girl is the rightful heir. A joke, this man.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

Except his words right??

[...] “Treasonous actions deserve punishment. Foolish words are another matter. If you truly desire to go to the Wall, I will not stop you. The Night’s Watch needs men as strong as you. But I would sooner you remain here, in my service. I would not sit upon this throne if not for you, all the realm knows that. And I still have need of you. The realm has need of you. When the Dragon died and my father donned the crown, he was beset on all sides by would-be kings and rebel lords. The same may befall me, and for the same reason…to test my resolve, my will, my strength. My mother believes that godly men throughout the realm will rise against me when my marriage is made known. Mayhaps so. To meet these tests, I need good men around me, warriors willing to fight for me, to die for me…and for my queen, if need be. Are you such a man?” Lord Rogar, thunderstruck at the king’s words, looked up and said, “I am, Your Grace,” in a voice thick with emotion.

That's just Jaehaerys I sugar-coating things. The standard routine.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

Geez, I thought that that was precisely the role of the Hand of the King and the Regents ruling over a minor King.

Jaeharys should've never ascend to the Throne, he usurped Aerea's throne. Sometimes our wishes don't turn up to be true.;)

Jaehaerys I didn't usurp anyone's throne. House Targaryen unanimously decided the crown should go to him.

The Queen Regent ruled, the Hand serves. They both opposed the king's marriage up to a certain point ... and then the Queen Regent draw the line. Rogar crossed it and became a traitor.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

Maris Baratheon started the Dance lmao, capriciously malevolent,  this reminds me of Viserra is femme fatale,  Maris taunted Aemond, the other was as stupid to kill his own nephew. Btw, weren't you the one saying that you believe Saera was a psycho??

Saera was a psychopath but she never caused a lot of harm in Westeros, did she? Neither did Viserra.

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

As shitty as Borys?? Maegor, Aemond, Aegon 2, Daemon, Aegor, Brynden, Aerion, Aerys. Jury's still out for Shiera and her real role in the Blackfyre Rebellion.

Neither of them was the full brother of any of his full siblings, right? Only the Baratheons are as shitty as to turn against their full brothers - Borys against Rogar, Renly against Stannis, and Stannis against Robert (in the sense that he let him die).

6 minutes ago, frenin said:

As i said, the moment we have a Blackfyre drinking wildfire and wanting to burn the whole KL, we can have a serious chat about this.

I don't think you wanted to write that here.

But you mistake my intentions there: I do like the Baratheons very much. I find it great that Rogar is this weak coward - it shows that muscles are not brains, and physical strength does not necessarily translate well in mental strength or strength of will.

Rogar could perhaps kill a lot of strangers on a battlefield, but he could not win (m)any battles where he had actual stakes in - and in that sense he is very much like Robert who also completely failed as a husband, father, and brother.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

No, it does not while we don't know when he took them in. If he took them in five minutes after he had realized that Maegor would fall down anyway he risked literally nothing.

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How could he know it when he was the one taking the risk by becoming Kingmaker??

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Rogar could have become king himself that way, no? Something he denies he wanted but I maintain he actually would have had nothing against. That's why he married Queen Alyssa, and that's why he tried to put Aerea on the throne.

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No he couldn't. Where is said that he could?? How could he, he was not a Targ. Nor he even wanted to.  

Alyssa had zero claims to the Throne and if Jaeharys gotta go, Aerea is the best next option.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Both Baelor Breakspear and Tywin are never described as men who are great warriors who like to kill people with axes or dreamed about facing certain cruel kings in battle.

Not to mention that the situation is rather different there - Maegor essentially had no important/relevant followers left, whereas the Black Dragon and the War of the Five Kings ripped the Realm apart. Daeron II and Joffrey could not afford killing all the followers of their enemies ... Jaehaerys I could have. As could Tywin when he extinguished the Reynes and Tarbecks.

Oh i understand, either you're a Khal Drogo or you are a coward, if you likes to fight but you think the fighting is pretty much is stupid and pointless, you're a coward, better be murderous psycho. About the underlined, not was Rogar, he only was said to wanted to kill Maegor

He has enough for the operation  to be described as costly and in fact, no one brings that out, Maegor didn't war alone against the Faith and Alyssa's plan was going after everyone who had fought for him.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

He is looking for excuses to be not forced to fight a modest military campaign.

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But... You're the one saying that  it would be a modest military campaign,  i mean if we're to discuss your headcanon then yes, you're right. 

Septon Moon however was enough of a threat to give Jaeharys a pause.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is talk a real warrior would rarely give. If at all. Robert would never talk like that.

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:rofl: Why should  i say?? Robert is not the sterotype of every "real warrior" in ASOIAF or that courage and caution aren't divorced??

Honestly, the statement is so childish i can't think about anything better.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

He never actually fought for his king. His king ended fighting with him in a stupid campaign that came about in part because Lord Rogar couldn't even rule his own brother - another sign of incompetence and weakness.

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Ofc, he didn't. Maegor was killed and so was Septon Moon, perhaps the Gods on their mercy wanted to spared us from such embarassment.

Well, I don't really know how can Rogar rule over his brother when he left and only came back when he had already betrayed Westeros with the Dornish.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I see no indication that this didn't happen. And we have other confirmation that he had mistresses and such before his wife got pregnant.

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Except that it's just a gossip?? Whether it happened or not, it has literally no bearing on his feelings for Alyssa and yes, he had mistresses before the pregnancy, when he stopped loving/caring for her and when he was still angered.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Alyssa Velaryon was the Queen Regent of the Seven Kingdoms, not the average lady wife. He was serving her, not the other way around. He eventually learned that, but he had to learn it the hard way. If he had loved her he would have never forced to choose between her children and him ... which he did.

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Yes, Alyssa Velaryon was Queen Regent but he also thought he was his wife and bound to obey him, a very stupid notion but there it is, so he acted the same way Ned did but the power dynamics were reversed.

What to say about the false dilemma but it's just a false dilemma??

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Where do you get the idea that they had no urge to marry?? I'd say Alyssa loved the man ... and he loved being the husband of the Queen Regent. That's more than enough of an urge.

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They wouldn't have any urge to marry if they didn't love each other, btw more things you just make up, evidence about the other thing?? He was already Hand by then,

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We know Alyssa never knew any happiness after her confronation with Rogar. She was a broken woman after that, because he had forced her to choose between her children and him. And she didn't get better just because he treated her less like shit after she had given him a son.

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We know that she never knew any happiness after her confrontation with Rogar and before Boremund's birth.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, the man was a joke. One day Jaehaerys I is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne and Westeros is not Dorne, and the next the girl is the rightful heir. A joke, this man.

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:rofl: He didn't say that Jaeharys wasn't the rightful King, he wanted to put Jaeharys aside and one should think that had Jaeharys made clear from the beginning his marriages preferences he wouldnt' have been crowned.

But ofc, you can ignore everything for your bias.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Like I said, he was weak and a windbag. I don't care about different kinds of strengths and other such apology nonsense. The woman was his wife, pregnant with his child and dying because of that pregnancy which was his fault. We don't have any indication that Rogar Baratheon ever grieved for his second wife, by the way. He could not see her dying - that indicates a fear of death and dying people, not anything like grief of sadness. It also means his fear of death was greater than whatever love you think he had for Alyssa - because that clearly could get him to sit by her bed.

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Ofc you don't care, you're biase and you are not willing to attend any reasoning. Why should i say about the rest but that is just nonsense??

I suppose that you know is not the same  seeing someone dying that someone close dying right?? 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That's just Jaehaerys I sugar-coating things. The standard routine.

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Is the standard routine i agree, you ignoring the text for your own headcanons, as far as we know, Jaeharys was worried about the Realm response to his marriage, Rogar could be used, so he used him, the idea that Jaeharys never had that in mind when is Jaeharys the one giving us the reasoning is just absurd.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Jaehaerys I didn't usurp anyone's throne. House Targaryen unanimously decided the crown should go to him.

The Queen Regent ruled, the Hand serves. They both opposed the king's marriage up to a certain point ... and then the Queen Regent draw the line. Rogar crossed it and became a traitor.

I think that Aerea would want  to have a word on that, but she was a minor like Jaeharys. Nor did i know that House Targ were only Rhaena and Rogar.

Both rule actually, one is subdued but still, that wasn't your point, your point was that Rogar had no business deciding who Jaeharys should marry,which is a very wrong remark.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Saera was a psychopath but she never caused a lot of harm in Westeros, did she? Neither did Viserra.

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Nor did Maris, as i said, you like to take the agency from people. You asked if there  were such as Maris, not the harm they did.

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Neither of them was the full brother of any of his full siblings, right? Only the Baratheons are as shitty as to turn against their full brothers - Borys against Rogar, Renly against Stannis, and Stannis against Robert (in the sense that he let him die).

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That's a very stupid remark, as saying that Jon would have a pass for, say, killing his brothers because they are not full blooded siblings.  It's still kinslaying, you're drawing the line where it suits,nor where it makes sense.

Btw, Daemon and Viserys were full blooded siblings and Daemon had zero qualms about butchering Viserys kids and grand kids, which is as fucked up as you can get, having in mind that Jaeharys was a kid. Aegon 4 not only took his siblings to their deaths but he didn't give a fuck and after that he just fucked his son and grand kids too.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think you wanted to write that here.

But you mistake my intentions there: I do like the Baratheons very much. I find it great that Rogar is this weak coward - it shows that muscles are not brains, and physical strength does not necessarily translate well in mental strength or strength of will.

Rogar could perhaps kill a lot of strangers on a battlefield, but he could not win (m)any battles where he had actual stakes in - and in that sense he is very much like Robert who also completely failed as a husband, father, and brother.

I do.

If you just like someone to point at him and laugh about how shitty they are, you don't like them at all, you like to critize them or laugh at them. I don't know, the only reason to consider Rogar a coward is if you only see Drogo as a good warrior, ie no brain there and consider that any kind of caution is cowardice, i consider that notion very stupid but to each...

Comparing Rogar and Robert doesn't make very much sense, Rogar didn't fail as a brother, nor as a father. 

Edited by frenin

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4 minutes ago, frenin said:

How could he know it when he was the one taking the risk by becoming Kingmaker??

LOL, what risk? Maegor was already falling when Jaehaerys I declared himself. It started when he had those other monstrosities - then people started to publicly say he was cursed, and pretty much everyone was abandoning him. Rogar and Jaehaerys didn't move when Maegor was still in a position to properly bring the might of the Realm against them.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

No he couldn't. Where is said that he could?? How could he, he was not a Targ.

Alyssa had zero claims to the Throne and if Jaeharys gotta go, Aerea is the best next option.

Rogar Baratheon is an alleged descendant of Aerion Targaryen. He has Targaryen blood himself, as does Queen Alyssa.

And if Jaehaerys I can be set aside, so can a girl. Or she will be married into House Baratheon to Rogar continues to rule ... forever without ever having to personally usurp the throne.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

He has enough for the operation  to be described as costly and in fact, no one brings that out, Maegor didn't war alone against the Faith and Alyssa's plan was going after everyone who had fought for him.

LOL, and where did I say Rogar should have fought against everyone who had ever supported Maegor?? I just point out that arguments are those of a coward and a weakling. A strong warrior would not have come up with excuses to fight against mediocre foes.

This is a pattern. Rogar does not support Aegon the Uncrowned, Rogar is afraid to put down Maegor's remaining followers, Rogar is afraid to move against Septon Moon and some Reach lords. If it was just one of those issues one could let it slide - but there are too many.

And then he gives in to his own woman, a woman as weak as her dead first husband according to him (what does this make him, I wonder, a man so weak that he is ruled by the weak widow of a weak king?), and allows the half-mad Queen Rhaena to intimidate him so he does never again take another wife.

If that's strength in your book then any further conversation with you is futile.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

But... You're the one saying that  it would be a modest military campaign,  i mean if we're to discuss your headcanon then yes, you're right. 

Septon Moon however was enough of a threat to give Jaeharys a pause.

LOL, yeah, as if Jaehaerys I was a military mastermind in 48 AC. And it was of course are rather modest compaign because they could actually have raised troops among all the lords who had declared for Jaehaerys I already - not just Rogar's Stormlanders but the rest of the Realm. And there were such lords even in the Reach.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Ofc, he didn't. Maegor was killed and so was Septon Moon, perhaps the Gods on their mercy wanted to spared us from such embarassment.

Well, I don't really know how can Rogar rule over his brother when he left and only came back when he had already betrayed Westeros with the Dornish.

LOL, the fact that Borys left/was allowed to leave is testament to his weakness as a lord.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Yes, Alyssa Velaryon was Queen Regent but he also thought he was his wife and bound to obey him, a very stupid notion but there it is, so he acted the same way Ned did but the power dynamics were reversed.

What to say about the false dilemma but it's just a false dilemma??

I'm not sure it is ever said that a queen (regent) has to obey her lordly husband - that would sort of undermine the whole regency thing, don't you think?

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

They wouldn't have any urge to marry if they didn't love each other, btw more things you just make up, evidence about the other thing?? He was already Hand by then,

LOL, right, as if people in this world routinely make love marriages...

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

We know that she never knew any happiness after her confrontation with Rogar and before Boremund's birth.

Can you give us any textual evidence that Alyssa Velaryon was happy with her marriage and her son after she gave birth to him??

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

He didn't say that Jaeharys wasn't the rightful King, he wanted to put Jaeharys aside and one should think that had Jaeharys made clear from the beginning his marriages preferences he wouldnt' have been crowned.

But ofc, you can ignore everything for your bias.

Well, perhaps Rogar should have asked the prince who he wanted to marry before he crowned him?? Or asked him who he wanted to marry after he crowned him??

Rogar makes it very clear that he thinks Jaehaerys is unfit to be king - i.e. not the rightful king. Because that would be a person suited for the crown.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Is the standard routine i agree, you ignoring the text for your own headcanons, as far as we know, Jaeharys was worried about the Realm response to his marriage, Rogar could be used, so he used him, the idea that Jaeharys never had that in mind when is Jaeharys the one giving us the reasoning is just absurd.

Such public talk cannot be taken all that seriously, just as we don't believe Jaehaerys I just wanted to show Rogar how Vermithor looked when he was fed...

Jaehaerys I did not want to executed his stepfather. I maintain he should have - and he should have attainted the entire Baratheon line in the process of that, handing over Storm's End to better men.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

I think that Aerea would want  to have a word on that, but she was a minor like Jaeharys. Nor did i know that House Targ were only Rhaena and Rogar.

Do you mean Aerea or Rhaella? Aerea would have done whatever her elders had told her. And Rhaella really didn't have a claim to the Iron Throne at all.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Both rule actually, one is subdued but still, that wasn't your point, your point was that Rogar had no business deciding who Jaeharys should marry,which is a very wrong remark.

The Hand does not make decisions like that. The regent(s) do.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

That's a very stupid remark, as saying that Jon would have a pass for, say, killing his brothers because they are not full blooded siblings.  It's still kinslaying, you're drawing the line where it suits,nor where it makes sense.

Btw, Daemon and Viserys were full blooded siblings and Daemon had zero qualms about butchering Viserys kids and grand kids, which is as fucked up as you can get, having in mind that Jaeharys was a kid. Aegon 4 not only took his siblings to their deaths but he didn't give a fuck and after that he just fucked his son and grand kids too.

I know what I said and it is accurate. The Baratheons are the only main noble houses as fucked-up as having full brothers turning against full brothers. That we don't have anywhere else. And it happens repeatedly in that accursed bloodline.

Daemon Targaryen never turned against his full brother, King Viserys I. And he only targeted his dear nephews and great-nephews after they had killed his stepson and great-nephew and had been stealing his wife's throne.

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

If you just like someone to point at him and laugh about how shitty they are, you don't like them at all, you like to critize them or laugh at them. I don't know, the only reason to consider Rogar a coward is if you only see Drogo as a good warrior, ie no brain there and consider that any kind of caution is cowardice, i consider that notion very stupid but to each...

LOL, you do know those are fictional characters, right?

4 minutes ago, frenin said:

Comparing Rogar and Robert doesn't make very much sense, Rogar didn't fail as a brother, nor as a father. 

Rogar failed as a brother and a lord. As a father he wasn't as bad as Robert, but he apparently couldn't even get his sister-in-law to properly treat his daughter, so he felt the need to dump her at the royal couple. Boremund seems to have been raised by his uncle, not his father - who didn't live all that long after Jocelyn's birth.

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14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, what risk? Maegor was already falling when Jaehaerys I declared himself. It started when he had those other monstrosities - then people started to publicly say he was cursed, and pretty much everyone was abandoning him. Rogar and Jaehaerys didn't move when Maegor was still in a position to properly bring the might of the Realm against them.

Quote

 

The risk of the biggest dragon of them all and whatever people Balerion might sway, the risk of crowning Aenys kid and the reject that may suppose, the risk of Maegor flying straight away to Storm's End. And Rogar sheltered them right awaywheen they flew from KL.

 

[...] Those were dangerous words during the reign of Maegor the Cruel, but if Rogar Baratheon feared Maegor’s wroth, he hid it well. Men who knew him were unsurprised when he gave shelter to Queen Alyssa and her children after their flight from King’s Landing, and when he was the first to proclaim Prince Jaehaerys king. His own brother Borys was heard to say that Rogar dreamed of facing King Maegor in single combat and cutting him down with his axe.

 

 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rogar Baratheon is an alleged descendant of Aerion Targaryen. He has Targaryen blood himself, as does Queen Alyssa.

And if Jaehaerys I can be set aside, so can a girl. Or she will be married into House Baratheon to Rogar continues to rule ... forever without ever having to personally usurp the throne.

Rogar is bastard descedant, people don't like bastards.

A girl can be set aside but nott everyone Targ until only him remains, nor Alyssa would allow that, Rogar didn't want to marry Jaeharys to a Baratheon cousin or the likes, only you give him that intention.

 

 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, and where did I say Rogar should have fought against everyone who had ever supported Maegor?? I just point out that arguments are those of a coward and a weakling. A strong warrior would not have come up with excuses to fight against mediocre foes.

This is a pattern. Rogar does not support Aegon the Uncrowned, Rogar is afraid to put down Maegor's remaining followers, Rogar is afraid to move against Septon Moon and some Reach lords. If it was just one of those issues one could let it slide - but there are too many.

And then he gives in to his own woman, a woman as weak as her dead first husband according to him (what does this make him, I wonder, a man so weak that he is ruled by the weak widow of a weak king?), and allows the half-mad Queen Rhaena to intimidate him so he does never again take another wife.

If that's strength in your book then any further conversation with you is futile.

 

:rofl:

 

1. And i just pointed out that rather fighting than take other route, a better route, is stupid. As simple as that, if  the only option was killing Maegor support but Rogar refuses, then you'd have  a point, but Rogar neither refuses nor is the only or even the better option, so this argument is just, Rogar should act even more idiotic to save a face no one thought he had lost.

2.  There is only a pattern on your head,  Rogar does not want nor is obliged to support Aegon, he instead protects Alyssa and her kids, Rogar is not afraid to put down Maegor's loyalist nor he is afraid to march against Septon Moon, he warns that those campaigns would be costly. You're the one acting as if caution=fear, which is indeed laughable. And even if he was afraidm he wasn't, the very notion that fear=cowardice is so childish and so Drogo, Randyll esque, that i can't even.

 

3. His own wife happened to be the Regent, is that your argument?? Btw he was indeed cowed by Rhaena, nor was she half mad,  honestly is there a reason to exaggerate or invent things to make a point ??

 

4. I very much agree here,  if the argument is act like Drogo or be a coward, then indeed the conver is futile, but i'm bored now, so who cares.

 

Edit: 

Had to read the translated version to get it better even when the og version also makes it clear lmao,  Rogar is just saying in the first one that killing the remaining loyalist would backfireand harden the other lord's hearts against Jaeharys, especially because neither of those lords rose because they had Jaeharys at hear but because they were done with Maegor. Rogar's idea then is just unappealable.

Which is why Jaeharys just pardons them all.

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, yeah, as if Jaehaerys I was a military mastermind in 48 AC. And it was of course are rather modest compaign because they could actually have raised troops among all the lords who had declared for Jaehaerys I already - not just Rogar's Stormlanders but the rest of the Realm. And there were such lords even in the Reach.

Quote

Jaeharys had a dragon and everyone in the Council was extremely worried about Septon Moon, they couldn't raise troops among all the lords who had already declared for Jaeharys because they didn't have their loyalty, nor those lords believe Jaeharys was any better than his father by then, by that time they didn't seem to have the loyalty of the Kingdom and that seemed to be why Jaeharys needed to be crowned in Oldtown asap  but ofc Rogar only talks about his stormlanders and Septon Moon's men, which would be indeed costly.

 

 

 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, the fact that Borys left/was allowed to leave is testament to his weakness as a lord.

Quote

Why shouldn't Borys be  allowed to leave if he wanted to?? Seriously, he doesn't want to be there anymore, they don't want him there anymore, then... Why should they be miserable?? Or are you saying that Borus should've been locked up for a crime he would commit in the future??

Quote

[..] Across the realm in King’s Landing, Jaehaerys and his counselors considered how to rid the realm of this scourge. The boy king and his sisters, Rhaena and Alysanne, all had dragons, and some felt the best way to deal with Septon Moon was the way Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters had dealt with the Two Kings on the Field of Fire. Jaehaerys had no taste for such slaughter, however, and his mother, Queen Alyssa, flatly forbade it, reminding them of the fate of Rhaenys Targaryen and her dragon in Dorne. Lord Rogar, the King’s Hand, said, with some reluctance, that he would lead his own host across the Reach and disperse Moon’s men by force of arms…though it would mean pitting his stormlanders, and whatever other forces he might gather, against Lords Rowan and Oakheart and their knights and men-at-arms, as well as the Poor Fellows. “Like as not, we will win,” the Protector said, “but not without cost.”

He clearly didn't think they would've been enough to be a modest campaign but as it happen, you know more than him. He clearly could count with Lyman Lannister and Donnel the... 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Can you give us any textual evidence that Alyssa Velaryon was happy with her marriage and her son after she gave birth to him??

Quote

I can't but it wasn't me the one saying that she was never happy you were and we don't know whether Boremund's birth chaged things or not, you're the one saying brushing it off for no reason and with no evidence,

 

 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, perhaps Rogar should have asked the prince who he wanted to marry before he crowned him?? Or asked him who he wanted to marry after he crowned him??

Rogar makes it very clear that he thinks Jaehaerys is unfit to be king - i.e. not the rightful king. Because that would be a person suited for the crown.

Perhaps, but Jaeharys was a minor, ie his thoughts on the matter would not matter much.

:rofl: Unfit to the crown means inadequate, nothing more nothing else. You're again putting your headcanon forth. The idea that only rightful kings are suited for the crown...

 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not sure it is ever said that a queen (regent) has to obey her lordly husband - that would sort of undermine the whole regency thing, don't you think?

Quote

That's why i said it was a very stupid notion.

 

 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, right, as if people in this world routinely make love marriages...

Quote

That doesn't mean love marriages don't exist.

 

 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Such public talk cannot be taken all that seriously, just as we don't believe Jaehaerys I just wanted to show Rogar how Vermithor looked when he was fed...

Jaehaerys I did not want to executed his stepfather. I maintain he should have - and he should have attainted the entire Baratheon line in the process of that, handing over Storm's End to better men.

What can i say but that i believe his words rather than yours?? I cannot prove a negative, that's why i'm not even trying, we have Jaeharys words howeve and we know that he was worried about how the Realm might react upon hearing about the incest, you don't like them or trust them?? I can't do more, you wanted to know Jaeharus motivations, there you go.

Aerea would've made a wonderful Queen i believe, such a pity.

 

 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Do you mean Aerea or Rhaella? Aerea would have done whatever her elders had told her. And Rhaella really didn't have a claim to the Iron Throne at all.

Quote

Both, as both were Aegon's daughters. Aerea would've done whatever her elders had told her?? Difficult to believe.

 

 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Hand does not make decisions like that. The regent(s) do.

Quote

They do actually, what they don't do is taje unilaterally the decision and Alyssa and Rogar were discussing the matter.

 

 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I know what I said and it is accurate. The Baratheons are the only main noble houses as fucked-up as having full brothers turning against full brothers. That we don't have anywhere else. And it happens repeatedly in that accursed bloodline.

Daemon Targaryen never turned against his full brother, King Viserys I. And he only targeted his dear nephews and great-nephews after they had killed his stepson and great-nephew and had been stealing his wife's throne.

 

:rofl:  Ofc, because the line is so thin.  Btw, what are doing the Lannisters and Greyjoys??  Accursed bloodline... I supposed that Aegon 4 didn't do it either, so close.

 

Viserys would have a very different take on that, especially the part where Daemon kills an innocent kid and his own blood.

 

 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

LOL, you do know those are fictional characters, right?

Quote

Do you?? What a venom just for fictional characters.

If you're talking abput the cowardice part, sorry but no,  even in fiction, cowardice and bravery are not stereotypes.

 

 

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Rogar failed as a brother and a lord. As a father he wasn't as bad as Robert, but he apparently couldn't even get his sister-in-law to properly treat his daughter, so he felt the need to dump her at the royal couple. Boremund seems to have been raised by his uncle, not his father - who didn't live all that long after Jocelyn's birth.

He neither failed as a brother nor he failed as a lord.

1.

 He had come to ask a boon, Lord Rogar told the king and queen. Lady Jocelyn would soon be celebrating her seventh nameday. “She has never known a mother. My brother’s wives looked after her as much as they were able, but they favored their own children as mothers will, and now both of them are gone. If it please you, sires, I would ask you to accept Jocelyn and her cousins as wards, to be raised here at court beside your own sons and daughters.”

 

It's normal the women will favor their own kids,  that's why every parent tends to do and he only "dumps her at the royal couple" because his sisters in law are dead.

 

2. Saying that he failed as brother is just ludicrous, the only thing that could've avoided Borys change was not having kids at all.

Edited by frenin

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