Robb’s Strategy

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

The discussion you speak of happens entirely before they actually play match maker for Baela. This could be a simple trick of the author to throw us off, but it seems they indeed decided on Baela , because if you are discussing Thaddius Rowan as a prince consort, and their child together as the unquestioned heir, then you are calling her the heir to Aegon, whether it is official(formal) or not is only a technicality.

I'd agree that they likely would have announced that Baela (or even better: her son by Lord Thaddeus) would have been the presumptive heir, but Baela did not marry Lord Thaddeus, did she? She ran away and married her baseborn bastard cousin.

And even before that there were those on the regency council who did not want Baela to be the heir due to her personality or what she did to Aegon II.

My gut feeling would be that Baela and Alyn would have succeeded to the Iron Throne if Aegon III and Jaehaera had died before Viserys returned - both because Baela was the older sister and because Alyn of Hull had been legitimized as Laenor Velaryon's son, meaning he was - officially at least - a great-great-grandson of Jaehaerys I and a great-grandson of Prince Aemon.

Rhaena wouldn't have had that advantage. But then - she had a living dragon.

But it is quite clear that - before Viserys' return - all of Aegon III's presumptive heirs were women - Jaehaera (while she was still alive), Baela, and Rhaena. There was nobody else. One of them - or a child of the twins - would have succeeded to the throne.

[dsjj251]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd agree that they likely would have announced that Baela (or even better: her son by Lord Thaddeus) would have been the presumptive heir, but Baela did not marry Lord Thaddeus, did she? She ran away and married her baseborn bastard cousin.

And even before that there were those on the regency council who did not want Baela to be the heir due to her personality or what she did to Aegon II.

 

Obviously they didnt announce it since it all hinged on Baela getting married, but FaB  makes it clear they had agreed on it, otherwise, calling Thaddeus Rowan ,"Prince Consort", makes no sense what so ever. 

The Regents then offered Rhaena the position of heir, she agreed as long as her husband wasnt so old as to die when having sex or so fat as to crush her when doing so(literally listening to the audio book to make sure i have the order right LOL). 

 

so yea, it wasnt announced, but it seems everyone agreed on it .

[cpg2016]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no evidence for that particular claim. He is not particularly misogynistic, especially not towards women from his own family.

Of course he is.  He treats his daughter as a brood mare, despite the fact that she's the Queen Regent, and almost out of safe childbearing age to boot.  He shows absolutely no regard for Sansa or her concerns, despite the fact that she is probably too young to be having children.  His punishment of his father's mistress is nothing but misogynistic.  Organizing a gang rape of Tysha?  I don't see how you come to any other conclusion; these are brutal, unnecessary punishments, tied to the fact that these are women, and perpetrated to humiliate in a way Tywin doesn't aim for when his "enemy" is a man.  No, he doesn't say "I hate women and think they're inferior" but... honestly, he shouldn't have to for us to accurately evaluate his actions.

Tywin obviously is a domineering person and a bigot in general, but even when he's browbeating Jaime into his plans, he doesn't insist on Jaime's immediate marriage after (presumably) renouncing his white cloak.

And I'm not sure why you think Myrcella would be crowned - under no circumstance is Doran making a Lannister a ruling Queen.  He wants revenge on the Lannisters and he wants his position of prominence within Westeros restored (as father in law to the crown prince and future grandfather of the king).  He can't get that with Myrcella on the throne.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Of course he is.  He treats his daughter as a brood mare, despite the fact that she's the Queen Regent, and almost out of safe childbearing age to boot. 

Tywin seems to have doted on Cersei, and he planned to make her queen. That was Cersei's goal as much as Tywin's. She certainly was his pawn effectively, but I'd say that Tywin treated his daughter much better than, say, Hoster Tully treated Lysa. Tywin wanted to give his daughter all the Seven Kingdoms ... unlike most of the fathers in Westeros he didn't aim too low.

Tywin's insistence that Cersei remarry goes back to Stannis' letters. He wants to kill the rumors Stannis spread by separating Jaime and Cersei for good and show the world that they were bogus by demonstrating that both the twins would produce (more) children with their (new) spouses.

There is no evidence that he would have wanted Cersei out of the way or force her into a new marriage if nobody had ever questioned the parentage of Cersei's children.

Cersei is in her mid-thirties. Childbirth is no longer easy in those years, but it is not necessarily going to kill her, either. Cat is older than Cersei and she still look forward to another pregnancy back in AGoT.

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

He shows absolutely no regard for Sansa or her concerns, despite the fact that she is probably too young to be having children.

That is politics. The Starks are not his friends.

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

His punishment of his father's mistress is nothing but misogynistic.  Organizing a gang rape of Tysha?  I don't see how you come to any other conclusion; these are brutal, unnecessary punishments, tied to the fact that these are women, and perpetrated to humiliate in a way Tywin doesn't aim for when his "enemy" is a man.  No, he doesn't say "I hate women and think they're inferior" but... honestly, he shouldn't have to for us to accurately evaluate his actions.

Those are cruel punishments to women who overreached themselves. Tywin has issues with such women, going back to his experiences with Ellyn Reyne Tarbeck (and, of course, his father's mistresses).

There is no logical connection from that kind of thing to the idea that Tywin would not support a female monarch (of Lannister blood or married to a male Lannister).

But I'm in agreement that the treatment of the mistress and Tysha certainly reflects the misogyny in Westerosi culture - as does Cersei's walk of shame.

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

Tywin obviously is a domineering person and a bigot in general, but even when he's browbeating Jaime into his plans, he doesn't insist on Jaime's immediate marriage after (presumably) renouncing his white cloak.

Jaime successfully defied Tywin. Tywin wanted him to marry Margaery instead of Tommen. That didn't happen because Jaime refused to leave the KG. If he had agreed chances are that Jaime-Margaery would have happened around the same time Tommen-Margaery happened (assuming Cersei wouldn't have prevented it after Tywin's death).

And Cersei's marriage wasn't settled yet, either. Willas was no longer on the table, and they had no yet settled on another candidate.

1 hour ago, cpg2016 said:

And I'm not sure why you think Myrcella would be crowned - under no circumstance is Doran making a Lannister a ruling Queen.  He wants revenge on the Lannisters and he wants his position of prominence within Westeros restored (as father in law to the crown prince and future grandfather of the king).  He can't get that with Myrcella on the throne.

I agree that Doran and Tywin would have had trouble working together, but Doran agreed to the Trystane-Myrcella match. If Joff and Tommen had somehow died rather quickly and Myrcella had been the only sibling left then one certainly can see Doran putting his son's future as prince/king consort of Westeros ahead of his petty squabbles with Lord Tywin - especially since he could still destroy that man without eradicating the entire bloodline.

Myrcella certainly was a contingency in his plans. If the Targaryen restoration plans never come to fruition for this or that reason (and around the time Tyrion's letter reached Sunspear Doran should have been informed that Viserys III was dead and Daenerys Targaryen lost somewhere in the middle of nowhere) then this could have provided him with another means for House Martell to rise to the top.

There is a reason why Oberyn, Tyrion, and Arianne all entertain the idea to crown Myrcella Baratheon queen.

[frenin]

On 10/4/2019 at 4:31 AM, dsjj251 said:

 

 

 

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Doran is not making a Lannister Queen, not a change, him receiving a Lannister hostage in exchange of nothing is quite duffferent that him crowning Myrcella... So Tywin can make something from it,  Doran has literally said, he want to destroy everything Tywin has and  loves  and  he doesn't have petty  squabbles with Tywin, Tywin didn't rob  him some land or joked about his disease, he gruesomely killed his sister and  nephews, he's not forgetting that.

Doran wanted revenge, not only rise to the top  and  there is a reason why Oberyn and  Arianne's plans are not Dorans.