A Bittersweet ending?

[asongofheresy]

As fans we are expecting a bittersweet ending to the series but how sweet the ending could be? And is sweetness a good thing after all? In ASOIAF novels death is associated with sweetness, and sour relationship among siblings, more about sisters. And bitter is related to exile, when Ned and Cersei talks about her incestuous relationship, when Robert learns he will surely kill her but Ned offers her exile, Cersei says it's a bitter cup. So could our bittersweet ending be about death and exile? 

[Megorova]

Yesterday I was reading a book, and from it learned something new and curious - bittersweet could be a color - burned orange. So, if what GRRM meant by bittersweet ending, was something symbolical, then the final book in the series, A Dream of Spring, could end with a sunrise/dawn, first after the end of the Second Long Night. Bittersweet-colored ending.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

The plan for a bittersweet ending was hatched before George Martin realized the diversity of his fans.  I will expect a more complicated ending now.  What is bitter for you [Jova Snow] may be sweet to me [Lord of the Crossing].  And vice-versa.  The Starks going extinct is sweet to me but many other fans would consider that bitter.  

[Megorova]

2 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The plan for a bittersweet ending was hatched before George Martin realized the diversity of his fans.  I will expect a more complicated ending now. 

He won't change the ending, just because of that reason (or any other reason). Because, if while writing, he will take into consideration, what readers want, then no matter what he will make the ending to be, there will be readers, that will be unsatisfied with it, because they wanted it to be something else, or readers, that had different expectations/predictions, and the ending turned out to be not what they wanted/expected. So, he will write an ending, that will be satisfying for him, and that's that ending, that he had already created years ago, and all this years was writing the series' plot towards it.

[Wolfbynature]

Bittersweet?

Bitter!
The Dragons are dead.
No magic anymore anywhere.
The Children of the forest have vanished, also have the giants, Direwolfes, Mammoth...
A lot of our beloved heroes are dead.
Jon Snow in not King.

Sweet!
The White Walkers are dead too.
At last  there is peace.
Winter is over.
The Starks rule the North again.
Jon Snow finds a love in Val.
New powers are rising. 

[asongofheresy]

7 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

The plan for a bittersweet ending was hatched before George Martin realized the diversity of his fans.  I will expect a more complicated ending now.  What is bitter for you [Jova Snow] may be sweet to me [Lord of the Crossing].  And vice-versa.  The Starks going extinct is sweet to me but many other fans would consider that bitter.  

I would want Starks to go extinct too lmao not that bitter for me, but yes bittersweet depends on what fans may find bittersweet. I wouldn't mind dragons and Targaryens going extinct too. Ice and Fire being defeated by PTWP. 

@Megorova thank you for the new information, but who will live to see the new dawn? I would say Brienne and Sansa but who else? 

[LynnS]

For me, it's a question of who will survive to make a new world.  I doubt any of the Starks will survive except for Sansa.  Of the Lannisters,  Tyrion and of the Greyjoys, perhaps Asha.   Brienne is also on my list of survivors.  Of the dragons, only Aegon.    And Samwell.

Possible foreshadowing:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Arya I

Jon watched them leave, and Arya watched Jon. His face had grown as still as the pool at the heart of the godswood. Finally he climbed down off the window. "The show is done," he said. He bent to scratch Ghost behind the ears. The white wolf rose and rubbed against him. "You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

Perhaps, Brienne will finally find Arya and fulfill her oath.  Brienne is also high on my list for writing Jaime's deeds in the White Book where he is finally redeemed.  Likely to be bittersweet moments for this character.  One can only hope that Pod survives in her service.

In the end, Sansa may finally get her  Prince of Draonflies and marry Aegon,  joining the ice and fire bloodlines. His is the song of ice and fire.

Tyrion would be the one to put order into government.

Samwell may also survive and finally write the true history of the song of ice and fire.

But I can't see any other major character surviving.  The deaths of Jon, Bran, Arya and Jaime will be saddest of all.

 

 

[Megorova]

3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

who will live to see the new dawn? I would say Brienne and Sansa but who else? 

In my opinion, all this TPTWP, Second Long Night, the Stallion that mounts the world, etc., is based on the Bible. Both Jon and Rhaego (who in my opinion is alive, and will live to adulthood) are parallels to Jesus (Dany also, but she is more in parallel to Mother Mary and the Woman Clothed in the Sun, from the Book of Revelation).

The Apocalypse in the Bible ends with the Lamb's wedding to his bride. In the end of The Lord of the Rings there was also a wedding, between new King, Aragorn, and Arwen. So, could be that ASOIAF will also end with a wedding, and based on whose wedding that will be, we will either have a lot of people, who will survive thru the Second Long Night (if it will be Jon and Dany's wedding), or nealy everyone will be dead by then (if it will be Rhaego's wedding with "Joanna" - Dany's and Jon's daughter, Jon + Lyanna = Joanna).

There was foreshadowing in the books, that Dany will die during childbirth, and that Tyrion will be ruling over 7K. So, could be that after Dany's death, Tyrion will become Joanna's Regent, and the Hand of the Queen. And then, near the end of ADOS, Rhaego will return, to marry with his half-sister, and to take Iron Throne. He will be the one, who will defeat the last Other, and will end the Long Night. Then - the sunrise and the wedding.

In both cases survivors will be Tyrion, Sansa (who will remain his wife), Bran (who will become the Lord of Winterfell, and a tree-man, binded with the weirwood to Winterfell's godswood/or crypts). In case, if the book will end with Rhaego's wedding, then both Jon and Dany by that time will be already dead, and nearly everyone else too (except those three - T.S.B.).

In case, if the series will end with Jon's and Dany's wedding, then there will be more characters, that will survive thru Long Night - Arya, Brienne, maybe even Jaime, Tormund, Val, Sam, Gilly, Rickon (there's no reason for him to die/to get rid of him in the books), Jorah, Theon and his sister, Gendry, some of Martells, some of Tyrells, etc.

[HexMachina]

For reference, GRRM calls the ending of LotR (and i agree with him!) bittersweet. So i would expect something in that line - ultimately triumphant but at great personal cost, and things can never be quite as the were

[The Map Guy]

"Bitterweet" story-telling could mean that a character achieves a goal or satisfies a redemption arc ... but they cannot enjoy it. A typical scenario where a character cannot enjoy their achievement or redemption arc is their own death.

Perhaps we'll see Jon successfully end the 2nd Long Night, but he dies ... perhaps Brienne writes an awesome passage about Jaime in the White Book, but Jaime dies ... perhaps Dany finally gets the Iron Throne she always wanted, but she dies too.

[The Commentator]

George is not into happy endings.  Count on many beloved characters to perish.  A lot of regular folk will die to drive the point home.  Nobles dying might not twist the heart of some people but a regular anyjoe suffering is something most will relate to.  Someone asked what Penny’s purpose is. It could be this.  Tyrion dying ain’t so bad but a girl whose been victimized deserve to live.  Penny will get more sympathy.  Same reason we feel bad for Jeyne.  Her family had nothing to do with the war.  She’s a regular girl caught up in the big picture.  We wouldn’t feel as badly if it was Sansa.

[The Snow Queen]

6 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

For reference, GRRM calls the ending of LotR (and i agree with him!) bittersweet. So i would expect something in that line - ultimately triumphant but at great personal cost, and things can never be quite as the were

You are right on point. GRRM did say that ASOIAF is a letter to Tolkien, so it's safe to assume that the ending of ASOIAF would have a similar ending to LOTR. Magic will die out. The Starks will come back and be stronger than before, but I have a feeling the North will be unlivable (would be parallel to the scouring of the shire). They think home is a place (Winterfell) when in reality home is where the heart is. And what is the heart for the Stark kids? Family. That is the bittersweetness for the Starks. They have each other but the home and childhood they knew are gone, they need to build a new one together. 

[The Ghost Beyond the Wall]

19 hours ago, Wolfbynature said:

Bittersweet?

Bitter!
The Dragons are dead.
No magic anymore anywhere.
The Children of the forest have vanished, also have the giants, Direwolfes, Mammoth...
A lot of our beloved heroes are dead.
Jon Snow in not King.

Sweet!
The White Walkers are dead too.
At last  there is peace.
Winter is over.
The Starks rule the North again.
Jon Snow finds a love in Val.
New powers are rising. 

I just want one dragon at least to survive or at least that eggs hatch, so that I have the knowledge that their race doesn't go exist... then I'd be at peace with the ending 

[The Ghost Beyond the Wall]

I agree with other posters before me, I think bittersweet is subjective and is open to interpretation. My idea of a "bittersweet" ending would be, as others have said, ultimately a triumph of the forces of good over the forces of evil, but at great cost. In other words, there may be a lasting peace, but the world will have to be rebuilt from the ashes of conflict. I have a suspicion that the series marks magic's crescendo before it ultimately goes out of the world. I hope the dragons survive, and at least 1 Targaryen also (I suspect Jon), but I feel as though the children, giants, direwolves etc will have one last go-round before fading into the annals of history, along with magic and legends. It will be bittersweet in that at last things are brought into balance, but that means removing the mythical and fantastical supernatural forces (Others, COTF, ice magic dragons etc) once and for all, not to mention the lives that will be lost for that balance to be restored. 

[Bronn Urgandy]

Lord Commander Dolorous Edd beats back the Other invasion, only for his steward to bring him a bowl of prunes ‘it’s all we have left for the rest of winter’

[The Map Guy]

5 hours ago, FitzChivalry Fartseer said:

Lord Commander Dolorous Edd beats back the Other invasion, only for his steward to bring him a bowl of prunes ‘it’s all we have left for the rest of winter’

Steward: "It’s all we have left for the rest of winter."
LC Dolorous Edd: "Alright boys, we have to leave our defenses and take our fight to the Others! I was told once that 'the night is dark and full of turnips.' Let's go get them!!"

[Lollygag]

On 8/7/2019 at 5:11 PM, Megorova said:

Yesterday I was reading a book, and from it learned something new and curious - bittersweet could be a color - burned orange. So, if what GRRM meant by bittersweet ending, was something symbolical, then the final book in the series, A Dream of Spring, could end with a sunrise/dawn, first after the end of the Second Long Night. Bittersweet-colored ending.

Bittersweet is a plant and the orange color comes from that. It's commonly used as an Autumn decoration in my neck of the US.

https://www.mda.state.mn.us/plants/pestmanagement/weedcontrol/noxiouslist/orientalbittersweet/bittersweetdiffs

[Rose of Red Lake]

If the Starks are the Hobbits, I would hope that GRRM is aware that Tolkien had planned a much sweeter scene I’m the epilogue involving Sam reading to his child a letter, about King Aragorn coming to visit the Shire. It definitely cast a warmer tone that emphasized family and Tolkien regrets not including it. Also, Frodo and Bilbo leaving wasn’t done out of bitterness or antipathy toward the hobbits they grew closest to, so I hope GRRM doesn’t go all Starkbowl and make the Starks resent or betray each other. In general I think more Stark scenes showing the love they have for each other could balance out some bitterness, for me at least. I don’t really like the idea that each characters endgame has to be balanced between bitter and sweet.

 

[ResidentHi11]

I am a long time lurker.

 

Serious question...

 

I know the show is not to be discussed here, but GRRM has confirmed the ending is essentially 100% accurate. 

 

There may be slight differences (more characters in the books obviously), but I am curious as to why you believe the ending will be different than what has been made very public.

 

Other than the fun of speculating (and hanging on to hope) :)

[asongofheresy]

4 minutes ago, ResidentHi11 said:

I am a long time lurker.

 

Serious question...

 

I know the show is not to be discussed here, but GRRM has confirmed the ending is essentially 100% accurate. 

 

There may be slight differences (more characters in the books obviously), but I am curious as to why you believe the ending will be different than what has been made very public.

 

Other than the fun of speculating (and hanging on to hope)

I actually think show ending is close to letter GRRM wrote before AGOT, king Bran was possible there but not now, not when he is stuck in a cave without any light. That's why I am speculating, and because Aegon is not part of the show and Daenerys losing her shit because of his popularity then because of Evil Named Bastard Snow is more likely for me.