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On 8/10/2019 at 8:36 AM, Arthur Peres said:

Edmure seems to be incapable of learning from his past mistakes. He already messed up his situation before by spreading his forces, and he pressure Robb to do the same, later on he will fill his castles with a lot of mounths to feed when he could be facing a siege.

 

On 8/10/2019 at 9:23 AM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Same reason anyone else did. Robb gave them permission to do so. 

It was dumb, but it was something their liege lord allowed. We see the Brackens, Blackwoods, and Darrys all do the same thing.

I think you guys are forgetting that military necessities are sometimes subservient to political necessities. Almost always to the detriment of the military necessities.

Yes, militarily these are mistakes, continued mistakes. But there are other considerations in play. In the end the results show that these were still mistakes overall, but it pays to remember that there are more than just military considerations at play.

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11 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Right, but I was talking about the earlier phase of the war: Tywin's initial foray into the Riverlands, before the Blackwater.

 

That would be true in the earlier phase of the war. Robb's foot was around 18k, they did not have the supplies to last at Moat Cailin so they'd only have one means of feeding themselves in the Riverlands, by taking from the local populace. This is just what happens in war, it is brutal for the smallfolk.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

That would be true in the earlier phase of the war. Robb's foot was around 18k, they did not have the supplies to last at Moat Cailin so they'd only have one means of feeding themselves in the Riverlands, by taking from the local populace. This is just what happens in war, it is brutal for the smallfolk.

Would've have been interesting to see how Robb would have done if he led the foot under Roose Bolton. His sense of honour and naivety would've had him starve his army in the Green fork. 

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13 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

That would be true in the earlier phase of the war. Robb's foot was around 18k, they did not have the supplies to last at Moat Cailin so they'd only have one means of feeding themselves in the Riverlands, by taking from the local populace. This is just what happens in war, it is brutal for the smallfolk.

 

 

Sorry Bernie, but I don't recall any text reporting Robb's army burning and murdering its way from the Twins to Riverrun. I would imagine that since the Blackfish is with them, and Robb is the grandson of Hoster Tully, most smallfolk would be happy to do what they can help stop the Lannister army, which is burning and murdering its way through the riverlands. Even when Robb was plundering the westerlands, we don't hear about him murdering smallfolk by the thousands.

BTW, I've been meaning to ask you: what is your profile image? Is it the Empire State Building? Or maybe a Cylon?

 

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21 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry Bernie, but I don't recall any text reporting Robb's army burning and murdering its way from the Twins to Riverrun.

Why would you? Cat is the first POV we hear about the Riverlands and she is not going to be told that, the Riverlords who themselves have been burning their own fields to starve the Lannisters are not going to be reporting Northern atrocities to Cat. Arya is told that but she only makes her move away from Harrenhal after the Blackwater and Brienne hears about the monstrosities of the Wolves and Lions in AFFC.

Which character were you expecting to hear this from?

"Would I tell you if I did?" The man spat. "Likely it were wolves' work, or maybe lions, what's the difference? The wife and I found them dead. The way we see it, the place is ours now."     - A Storm of Swords - Jaime II

This, according to the timeline document, happens less than three weeks after the battle of Blackwater. Already Wolves are mentioned in the same breath as Lions. That does not suggest that the smallfolk were particularly fond of them.

The books are full of lions and wolves being a blight on the smallfolk of the Riverlands

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=lions+and+wolves&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc

It is naïve to think that it is a recent development, an army has to eat and the monologue of the broken man explains exactly how armies operate during a war.

"If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they're fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it's just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don't know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they're fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground.

 

When Robb marched South he had no idea what he was doing, he did not know there was going to be a year long war, he did not even have the supplies to stay at Moat Cailin. Roose's army would need to feed themselves, they'd be pillaging from the smallfolk.

Lem glowered. "Your lion friends ride into some village, take all the food and every coin they find, and call it foraging. The wolves as well, so why not us? No one robbed you, dog. You just been good and foraged."     

21 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

 

 

I would imagine that since the Blackfish is with them, and Robb is the grandson of Hoster Tully, most smallfolk would be happy to do what they can help stop the Lannister army, which is burning and murdering its way through the riverlands. Even when Robb was plundering the westerlands, we don't hear about him murdering smallfolk by the thousands

Who would you hear it from?

The reason we hear of the atrocities in the Riverlands is Jaime, Brienne and Arya are all POV characters interacting with the smallfolk in the Riverlands who tell the POV/reader of the atrocities in the region, committed by both Lions and Wolves. There is no one in the Westerlands doing the same.

What we do know is that Robb is doing what Tywin did to the Riverlands

Without siege engines there was no way to storm Casterly Rock, so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands.

Robb was doing the same, we just don't have a POV characters witnessing it. The thousands of cattle stoles will have had smallfolk protectors, men and women trying to defend their livelihoods and being killed in the process. if the Northern men had no problem raping smallfolk in the Riverlands it stands to reason they were doing the same to the smallfolk in the West.

One of the annoying things about the fandom is how some have assumed there is good and bad and only the bad guys act badly during war, both sides do. The smallfolk are screwed over by all sides.

 

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40 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Why would you? Cat is the first POV we hear about the Riverlands and she is not going to be told that, the Riverlords who themselves have been burning their own fields to starve the Lannisters are not going to be reporting Northern atrocities to Cat. Arya is told that but she only makes her move away from Harrenhal after the Blackwater and Brienne hears about the monstrosities of the Wolves and Lions in AFFC.

Which character were you expecting to hear this from?

"Would I tell you if I did?" The man spat. "Likely it were wolves' work, or maybe lions, what's the difference? The wife and I found them dead. The way we see it, the place is ours now."     - A Storm of Swords - Jaime II

This, according to the timeline document, happens less than three weeks after the battle of Blackwater. Already Wolves are mentioned in the same breath as Lions. That does not suggest that the smallfolk were particularly fond of them.

The books are full of lions and wolves being a blight on the smallfolk of the Riverlands

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=lions+and+wolves&scope[]=adwd&scope[]=acok&scope[]=asos&scope[]=affc

It is naïve to think that it is a recent development, an army has to eat and the monologue of the broken man explains exactly how armies operate during a war.

"If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they're fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it's just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don't know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they're fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground.

 

When Robb marched South he had no idea what he was doing, he did not know there was going to be a year long war, he did not even have the supplies to stay at Moat Cailin. Roose's army would need to feed themselves, they'd be pillaging from the smallfolk.

Lem glowered. "Your lion friends ride into some village, take all the food and every coin they find, and call it foraging. The wolves as well, so why not us? No one robbed you, dog. You just been good and foraged."     

Who would you hear it from?

The reason we hear of the atrocities in the Riverlands is Jaime, Brienne and Arya are all POV characters interacting with the smallfolk in the Riverlands who tell the POV/reader of the atrocities in the region, committed by both Lions and Wolves. There is no one in the Westerlands doing the same.

What we do know is that Robb is doing what Tywin did to the Riverlands

Without siege engines there was no way to storm Casterly Rock, so the Young Wolf was paying the Lannisters back in kind for the devastation they'd inflicted on the riverlands.

Robb was doing the same, we just don't have a POV characters witnessing it. The thousands of cattle stoles will have had smallfolk protectors, men and women trying to defend their livelihoods and being killed in the process. if the Northern men had no problem raping smallfolk in the Riverlands it stands to reason they were doing the same to the smallfolk in the West.

One of the annoying things about the fandom is how some have assumed there is good and bad and only the bad guys act badly during war, both sides do. The smallfolk are screwed over by all sides.

 

But Catelyn is with Robb's army after they leave both Moat Caillen and the Twins. Don't you think she would have seen the villages burned, the smallfolk murdered? She does see this kind of destruction on her journey south to the Reach, and she is appalled by it. Why would she give it a second thought if this is the exact thing her own son is doing?

And why would Walder Frey, or any river lord, even consider aligning with this mad reaver who has just seized their crops and murdered the people he needs to grow them? Robb is literally taking money out of their pockets. Was Robb running out of food at MC? Maybe. Do you think he could have gotten more at the Twins? Sure, but not if he attacks Frey's holdings and burns down all his towns, villages and holdfasts first.

Sure, armies have to eat. But when you are a friendly army coming to rid the land of invaders the smallfolk tend to be helpful. It's also fair to say that all of the lords whose land Robb is crossing are joining his cause to oust the invaders as well. They can certainly collect from their own smallfolk in time of need, and they don't have to kill everyone and burn everything in sight to do so.

The quotes you post are from aSoS, long after the period I'm talking about. Likely this was Karstarks out looking for Jaime after he's been released, after the Blackwater, after Tywin has left this theater.

So sorry, but there is no text to suggest, and plenty to refute, that Robb was burning and murdering his way through the northern riverlands while Tywin was burning and murdering his way through the southern, and there is no reason in the world why he would do this. Tywin needs to crush the riverlanders' collective will in order to prevail, Robb needs their support.

Yes, as I said, Robb did pillage his way through the westerlands after Oxcross, but there is no reason he would need to do this through the riverlands, any more than Tywin needed to set fire to his own lands in order to get to the Golden Tooth.

 

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is naïve to think that it is a recent development, an army has to eat and the monologue of the broken man explains exactly how armies operate during a war.

"If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they're fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it's just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don't know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they're fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground.

An army does have to eat, and the army will usually forage (purchase / seize / collect as tax) because it's impossible for a medieval army to bring all the food they need with them. But they definitely bring food with them. We see Robb's army brought supplies at MC

“It fell away slowly beneath them as they rode past smoky peat fires, lines of horses, and wagons heavy-laden with hardbread and salt beef.”

And Roose's leftovers when they came back:

“Farther back came the baggage train—lumbering wayns laden with provisions and loot taken in the war,”

However using a monologue of the broken man, who is explicitly *not* part of an army just doesn't really hold water, especially when you're in friendly territory. Note that doesn't apply to the post ASOS Karstarks or the Lannister forces anywhere but Oxcross until AFFC. Broken men don't have baggage trains.

We don't see Stannis' army or Renly's army send out foragers at all. Jaime's 2nd army and Tarly's army are strictly forbidden from doing anything of the sort or are rebuilding the RL. Even the RR Frey army (!)  isn't sending out foragers as they "only enough food and fodder for their own."

 

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18 hours ago, corbon said:

I think you guys are forgetting that military necessities are sometimes subservient to political necessities. Almost always to the detriment of the military necessities.

Yes, militarily these are mistakes, continued mistakes. But there are other considerations in play. In the end the results show that these were still mistakes overall, but it pays to remember that there are more than just military considerations at play.

For sure political considerations are always in play, but that doesn't mean that they override military decisions or that someone just didn't make a bad decision. They definitely didn't override the military concerns because keeping his men together instead of bleeding strength was more important. Robb just made a dumb decision like he did with Lord Karstark. Politically and militarily it was more expedient to keep him as a hostage to make sure Harrion kept his men loyal and together.

Robb's theme in the Wo5K is that he's militarily great and politically inept. So while political considerations might come into play, Robb's making the wrong decisions anyway.

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Robb gave those Riverlords leave to return to their lands because he had no need for them in his plans to get the Lannisters out of the Riverlands: pillaging the westerlands with his cavalry while in the meanwhile living off the land. To prevent a severe loss of face Tywin would be forced to take his army, which was mostly infantry, on a forced march back to westerlands, during which he would loose strength through exhaustion deaths and desertion.

Having arrived in his (ravaged) lands, Tywin would have to play catch-up with the northern cavalry trailing Robb through the westerlands until Robb would have Tywin in the place where he would give him battle. Robb would most likely defeat Tywin and then he could sue for peace from a position of extreme strength.

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15 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

An army does have to eat, and the army will usually forage (purchase / seize / collect as tax) because it's impossible for a medieval army to bring all the food they need with them. But they definitely bring food with them. We see Robb's army brought supplies at MC

“It fell away slowly beneath them as they rode past smoky peat fires, lines of horses, and wagons heavy-laden with hardbread and salt beef.”

And Roose's leftovers when they came back:

“Farther back came the baggage train—lumbering wayns laden with provisions and loot taken in the war,”

However using a monologue of the broken man, who is explicitly *not* part of an army just doesn't really hold water, especially when you're in friendly territory. Note that doesn't apply to the post ASOS Karstarks or the Lannister forces anywhere but Oxcross until AFFC. Broken men don't have baggage trains.

We don't see Stannis' army or Renly's army send out foragers at all. Jaime's 2nd army and Tarly's army are strictly forbidden from doing anything of the sort or are rebuilding the RL. Even the RR Frey army (!)  isn't sending out foragers as they "only enough food and fodder for their own."

 

Sorry, what is your point?

Do you disagree with the my point that the Northern soldiers were pillaging from the Riverland smallfolk?

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6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sorry, what is your point?

Do you disagree with the my point that the Northern soldiers were pillaging from the Riverland smallfolk?

The Karstarks were post Rickard being executed / giving the order to find Jaime Lannister as well as some clearly other leaderless soldiers / broken men / awful people. The ones that come to mind would be survivors of Duskendale or the Bloody Mummers. The bloody mummers could well have pillaged the RL whilst "under Robb's command" as Roose would put it, but we have nothing onscreen to confirm it.

Generally operating as an army under Robb, no they were not pillaging in the RL. Nor do we have any textual confirmation that the BWB is pillaging them either. Those closest we get is this:

“Justice.” Thoros smiled wanly. “I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king’s men, knights, and heroes . . . but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all.”

And we have no idea if he's just talking about hanging random Freys and their men or if the BWB is actually just robbing people now.

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5 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sorry, what is your point?

Do you disagree with the my point that the Northern soldiers were pillaging from the Riverland smallfolk?

Pillaging is one thing. Murdering everyone in sight and burning down every village, town and holdfast after you've pillaged it is quite another. There is absolutely no way Robb is doing this in the lands of his mother, uncle and bannermen who have joined his cause. 

Compare what Jaime and Arya see in their trips through Tywin's path through the Riverlands with what Robb and Cat see on the way back to the Twins -- no burned villages, no bloated corpses along the road, except, of course, when they pass through the Whispering Wood again. Sevenstreams is still standing, as is Hag's Mire, even though Raymond Nayland had declared for Renly.

And again, why on earth would Jason Mallister and the numerous small lords who joined Robb on his march to lift the siege at Riverrun align themselves with the man who is laying waste to their lands. And what would Robb have said to Hoster Tully, and Edmure, after the battle? "Sorry I had to turn the northern half of your realm into a barren wasteland, but I needed to prevent Tywin Lannister from turning the southern half into a barren wasteland."

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