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After the liberation of Riverrun and the crowning of Robb, all the Riverlords were allowed to return home in order to defend/retake their lands. But it still bugs me why was the little Lord Lyman Darry allowed to return to his holdfast, despite the fact that Castle Darry is rumored to be located somewhere between the ruby ford and HarrenhallNow let's not forget that this was the height of the WOT5K. Roose bolton was positioned north of the ruby ford and Tywin at Harrenhall, this was a war front between these opposing armies. You had skirmishes, looting, plundering and all sorts of dangerous things in which a little lord has no place in. Let alone a little lord whos the last of his house.

A week or 2 after Darry soldiers retook Castle Darry, the Mountain's men sacked Castle Darry and slaughtered all its inhabitants (including little Lyman) like it was a common village. Later Helman Tallhart and his Northmen also sacked the castle.

My question is why was the little lord allowed to march with the darry soldiers, despite the fact that Tywin Lannister the most hated man among the RiverLords was but a mere miles away from Castle Darry. I am surprised that Edmure or Robb didn't think of keeping the young darry lord in Riverrun for his own safety and maybe appoint a castellan to retake the castle. Of course, that castellan would be soon dead because the mountains men would have sacked the castle anyways, but at least little Lyman would still be alive and well at Riverrun. 

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All of the riverlords who are on the front lines of the conflict would have a greater interest than most to return and defend their lands. And it's not like little lord Darry went back alone, but with the fighting men that he had in Robb's army.

But your point is well taken. Allowing your forces to defend their own lands is the same mistake that Edmure made at the Golden Tooth. He tried to defend every inch of the riverlands from Gregor's raiders and then Jaime smashed through his weakened army and marched on Riverrun, where he took Edmure captive.

For Robb, the better strategy would have been to maintain a cohesive force in the Riverlands to confront Tywin's army wherever and whenever it marched. Ideally, they would have used guerilla tactics to chip away at his strength little by little rather than force a direct confrontation, but this still would have been a coordinated action by multiple lords rather than just disperse everyone to their own castles to be defeated one by one.

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Edmure and Robb are both GREEN as the grass and it shows during the war especially Edmure allowing his bannerman to return to their lands with the army he so badly needed. Lands can be retaken after the war is cemented. 

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

All of the riverlords who are on the front lines of the conflict would have a greater interest than most to return and defend their lands. And it's not like little lord Darry went back alone, but with the fighting men that he had in Robb's army.

But your point is well taken. Allowing your forces to defend their own lands is the same mistake that Edmure made at the Golden Tooth. He tried to defend every inch of the riverlands from Gregor's raiders and then Jaime smashed through his weakened army and marched on Riverrun, where he took Edmure captive.

For Robb, the better strategy would have been to maintain a cohesive force in the Riverlands to confront Tywin's army wherever and whenever it marched. Ideally, they would have used guerilla tactics to chip away at his strength little by little rather than force a direct confrontation, but this still would have been a coordinated action by multiple lords rather than just disperse everyone to their own castles to be defeated one by one.

I agree. Edmure should have set up a base of operation with his full riverlander force. Somewhere west of Harrenhall to prevent Tywin from destroying their fields. Somewhere near Roose as well so that they can both coordinate defenses and come to each others aid. This way Tywin would've been trapped between two opposing armies. 

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Posted (edited)

So the Riverlands is a really interesting place with some major existing internal problems that put them in a really bad spot.

1)  The Tullys are weak.  They hold the title of Lord Paramount, but they are weaker than many of their vassals.  Their survival has likely depended on their legal position and the assistance of the crown.  Without their own strength and wealth, their vassals are more like rivals, who will see any weakening of the Tullys as a chance for their own advancement.

2) The territory is arbitrarily set, with no natural boundaries.  This leave them weak to invasion from their neighbors.  Due to their wealth and history, many of their castles are not effective, excluding Riverrun and the Twins.

3) Despite having a tremendous asset in their rivers, they seem to have no existing naval culture and take no advantage of them.

 

The first problem is supported by the books directly, as well as other information.  The Tully's can't supply as many troops as some of their larger vassals.  Their vassals don't support them in war when they're needed, and the Tully's can do anything about it.  This means that when a relatively small force of Lannister raiders hit them in the begining of the war, their only response was to hunker down and beg the king for help.  (This looks a lot like the historic black prince's chevaunche during the early hundred years war, although he had a large army).

The second problem is apparent because despite Gregor not having siege equipment, he's still able to capture and pillage a number of strongholds at a rapid rate.  So despite their wealth, the Riverlanders weren't investing in their foritifactions.  (Again like the Black Prince in france).

Finnally, we never hear of the riverlanders utilizing the rivers to transport troops defensively, something that they should have learned from the damn iron islanders.  River mobility would have been a huge asset for dealing with the raiders.

I can't agree that Edmure is at fault.  The Riverlands are just written to be in a categorically awful strategic and tactical position in the begining.  Edmure doesn't have the muscle, influence or wealth to do anything about Gregor, and he wasn't even Lord Paramount yet at the start.  His castles fail over and over, outside of Riverrun, and his people are disloyal.  Life sucks for the Tully's.  They're probably better off not being Lords Paramount anyway, its a crap job.

Edited by argonak

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5 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Plot convenience for later, (Lancel and the Frey girl).

Its what i first thought. George wanted the little lord dead for plot convenience. Whilst at the same time logic was thrown out of the way by the writer.

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22 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

I agree. Edmure should have set up a base of operation with his full riverlander force. Somewhere west of Harrenhall to prevent Tywin from destroying their fields. Somewhere near Roose as well so that they can both coordinate defenses and come to each others aid. This way Tywin would've been trapped between two opposing armies. 

Actually, the fields were burned by the retreating river lords to deny Tywin fodder to feed his men and horses. All the towns, villages, keeps, holdfasts and murdered smallfolk, that was Tywin.

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Plot hole.  I'm tempted to say those turkeys were prejudiced because House Darryl was and is loyal to the Targaryens.  The Starks and the Tullys were some of worst offenders during the rebellion.  

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On 8/8/2019 at 3:01 PM, The Young Maester said:

I agree. Edmure should have set up a base of operation with his full riverlander force. Somewhere west of Harrenhall to prevent Tywin from destroying their fields. Somewhere near Roose as well so that they can both coordinate defenses and come to each others aid. This way Tywin would've been trapped between two opposing armies. 

Edmure seems to be incapable of learning from his past mistakes. He already messed up his situation before by spreading his forces, and he pressure Robb to do the same, later on he will fill his castles with a lot of mounths to feed when he could be facing a siege.

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Same reason anyone else did. Robb gave them permission to do so. 

It was dumb, but it was something their liege lord allowed. We see the Brackens, Blackwoods, and Darrys all do the same thing.

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6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Actually, the fields were burned by the retreating river lords to deny Tywin fodder to feed his men and horses. All the towns, villages, keeps, holdfasts and murdered smallfolk, that was Tywin.

Not all of it.

"Pardoned?" The old man laughed. "For what? Sitting on his arse in his bloody castle? He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself. Lions sacked his town, then wolves, then sellswords, and his lordship just sat safe behind his walls.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Pardoned?" The old man laughed. "For what? Sitting on his arse in his bloody castle? He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself. Lions sacked his town, then wolves, then sellswords, and his lordship just sat safe behind his walls.

 

There are two armies in the Riverlands, both are raping and pillaging from the local populace and the Brotherhood are also doing the same

"Be wary, woman. The next men you meet may not be as honest as my lads. The Hound has crossed the Trident with a hundred outlaws, and it's said they're raping every wench they come upon and cutting off their teats for trophies."    

Tywin's invasion certainly started the war in the Riverlands, but Lions and Wolves alike are doing as they please.

 

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On 8/8/2019 at 8:34 PM, argonak said:

So the Riverlands is a really interesting place with some major existing internal problems that put them in a really bad spot.

1)  The Tullys are weak.  They hold the title of Lord Paramount, but they are weaker than many of their vassals

Where is this said?

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3 hours ago, Red Tiger said:

Where is this said?

Fire and Blood. In the aftermath of the Dance of the Dragons it is pointed out that the Tully's were less powerful than a number of their vassals such as the Brackens, Blackwoods, Vances and Freys in terms of military strength and land.

It is possible that has changed in the last century, but I'm not sure how given the Blackwoods and Brackens may have grown even more powerful in that time given their closeness to the royal family during the reigns of Aegon IV, Aerys I and Aegon V. I'd also imagine that the Freys have grown more powerful as time has gone on rather than weaker.

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On 8/8/2019 at 1:52 AM, The Young Maester said:

After the liberation of Riverrun and the crowning of Robb, all the Riverlords were allowed to return home in order to defend/retake their lands. But it still bugs me why was the little Lord Lyman Darry allowed to return to his holdfast, despite the fact that Castle Darry is rumored to be located somewhere between the ruby ford and HarrenhallNow let's not forget that this was the height of the WOT5K. Roose bolton was positioned north of the ruby ford and Tywin at Harrenhall, this was a war front between these opposing armies. You had skirmishes, looting, plundering and all sorts of dangerous things in which a little lord has no place in. Let alone a little lord whos the last of his house.

A week or 2 after Darry soldiers retook Castle Darry, the Mountain's men sacked Castle Darry and slaughtered all its inhabitants (including little Lyman) like it was a common village. Later Helman Tallhart and his Northmen also sacked the castle.

My question is why was the little lord allowed to march with the darry soldiers, despite the fact that Tywin Lannister the most hated man among the RiverLords was but a mere miles away from Castle Darry. I am surprised that Edmure or Robb didn't think of keeping the young darry lord in Riverrun for his own safety and maybe appoint a castellan to retake the castle. Of course, that castellan would be soon dead because the mountains men would have sacked the castle anyways, but at least little Lyman would still be alive and well at Riverrun. 

Why, because Robb Stark was an idiot.  He was an idiot with everything except battles.  

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41 minutes ago, Victor Newman said:

Why, because Robb Stark was an idiot.  He was an idiot with everything except battles.  

Couldn’t agree more. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Fire and Blood. In the aftermath of the Dance of the Dragons it is pointed out that the Tully's were less powerful than a number of their vassals such as the Brackens, Blackwoods, Vances and Freys in terms of military strength and land.

It is possible that has changed in the last century, but I'm not sure how given the Blackwoods and Brackens may have grown even more powerful in that time given their closeness to the royal family during the reigns of Aegon IV, Aerys I and Aegon V. I'd also imagine that the Freys have grown more powerful as time has gone on rather than weaker.

I see, thank you very much. I have to wonder if GRRM had that in mind when he wrote Game of Thrones or if he changed it later, though.

Edited by Red Tiger

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On 8/9/2019 at 6:22 PM, Bernie Mac said:

Not all of it.

"Pardoned?" The old man laughed. "For what? Sitting on his arse in his bloody castle? He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself. Lions sacked his town, then wolves, then sellswords, and his lordship just sat safe behind his walls.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Pardoned?" The old man laughed. "For what? Sitting on his arse in his bloody castle? He sent men off to Riverrun to fight but never went himself. Lions sacked his town, then wolves, then sellswords, and his lordship just sat safe behind his walls.

 

There are two armies in the Riverlands, both are raping and pillaging from the local populace and the Brotherhood are also doing the same

"Be wary, woman. The next men you meet may not be as honest as my lads. The Hound has crossed the Trident with a hundred outlaws, and it's said they're raping every wench they come upon and cutting off their teats for trophies."    

Tywin's invasion certainly started the war in the Riverlands, but Lions and Wolves alike are doing as they please.

 

Right, but I was talking about the earlier phase of the war: Tywin's initial foray into the Riverlands, before the Blackwater.

 

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Right, but I was talking about the earlier phase of the war: Tywin's initial foray into the Riverlands, before the Blackwater.

 

And I don't recall the BwB raping and pillaging the local populace either, just killing Freys and their soldiers. Thoros does give that speech but we haven't seen any on screen examples AFAIK 

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4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

And I don't recall the BwB raping and pillaging the local populace either, just killing Freys and their soldiers. Thoros does give that speech but we haven't seen any on screen examples AFAIK 

I think the Karstarks got up to no good when they were hunting Jaime, and the northmen weren't exactly pleasant at Darry and Maidenpool. But this was after the period I and the OP were talking about: the point at which Edmure sends his bannermen home again to defend their own lands.

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