Has GRRM stated what it means for a knight to be "worthy' to wield Dawn?

[Platypus Rex]

4 hours ago, Ran said:

It's absurd to think Jack is just referring to people directly in front of the Hound.

I think I was quoting Beric.  But how is it absurd?  "... before you" means just that.  Sure, it COULD in some contexts be intended to include everyone in a full circle for 500 yards, whether visible or not.  But you cannot just ASSUME that is necessarily the case.  Without seeing his hand-eye gestures. it's hard to tell who Beric was referring to.  

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The scene is described with people entering from all about them.

Right.  Nobody can see all of them.  Hence nobody, even Beric, can be sure that all of them are knights.  The crowd includes women and small children.  Plausibly, it included everyone in the immediate vicinity of the firelight, visible to both Beric and Sandor.

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Presumably the Hound can turn his head.

Sure.  But when someone refers to the people "before" me, there is no particular occasion to look behind me to see who is included among those being referred to.  Also, I am aware of no evidence Sanor would have seen Edric if he looked behind him either.  It seems more likely that Ned was somewhere behind Beric.

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Gendry was a child and was knighted without so ever as much as lifting a sword alongside the brotherhood. "Man" is very flexible.

"Flexible" means "flexible".  "Flexible" suggests we cannot be 100% sure who Beric was referring to, or whether it includes 12-year olds.  But your argument, I though, is that we can be near-certain that it does include 12-year olds.

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He is explicitly named as being present just a few lines later.

I find no such reference to Edric within a few lines or a few paragraphs of my quote from Beric. 

Ned is apparently on hand, though, and appears MUCH later, after Beric calls him to perform typical "squire" type tasks for him.  To Arya he appears "ten or twelve", hardly someone you would assume to be included in the phrase "every man you see before you."  I'm sure Sandor did not think this referred to Arya either, even though he initially mistook her for a boy.

Gendry is present, though.  And he is not a knight.  He is obviously not among the people Beric was referring to when he refers to "every man you see before you".  Your argument proves too much.

It is relatively normal to be knighted at 15-16, which is Gendry's age, especially when the one knighted is tall and strong, and the one doing the knighting not particularly discriminate.  It is not normal to be knighted at 12.  I'm not ruling it out absolutely.  I just see no basis for assuming it.

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I've already accounted for the possibility of his youth as contradicting.

I thought you were arguing for the near-certainty of his being knighted, so I would imagine you think that possibility is a small one.  Anyhow, I disagree.  It is POSSIBLE that Edric was knighted by Beric, but that is neither certain, nor particularly likely.

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But considering that Beric took no hesitation in knighting Gendry, I'm incredulous that Edric never received the accolade after his manifest efforts on behalf of Beric and the brotherhood, given Beric's obsessive focus on their cause.

Gendry's example only shows that "manifest efforts" are not a particularly relevant factor in deciding who Beric chooses to knight.

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Only Edric's youth could possibly speak against his doing it, but when we have characters saying things like this:

These quotes tend to confirm that Beric knights all the adult men of his fighting force, apparently as young as 15, but not necessarily including women, children, and support staff.  A 12-year old squire, even if present in some battles, is support staff.

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And you see Edric is listed as a member of the brotherhood, well, one leads to the other.

Listed by who?  The only place I have ever seen Edric listed as part of the BwB, he is listed as a "squire".

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I'll grant that Edric himself may, for all his love and respect of Beric, recognize that being knighted at 12 is so unorthodox that he won't actually claim it when he returns to polite society. But then again...

Then again, Edric is a Lord.  By tradition, he does not need to be a knight to knight a knight.

[FictionIsntReal]

6 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Different things are different, but that does not rule out a valid analogy.  Being married, and to a specific person, is also a "status".  More specifically analogy, if the "status" is doubted, and/or if the actuality or validity of the first ceremony is doubted, a second ceremony, before more witnesses, or under less dubious circumstances, will reassure the doubts.  And that is exactly what @The Wondering Wolf 's good catch found.  

So apparently, the analogy works.

If there's uncertainty was to whether you already got married to person A, you don't reassure people by marrying person B. If the prior marriage actually is valid, it could make you a bigamist. Because it matters WHO you marry in a way that it does not for knighthood. One person may knight a great many other people, and those people will go on being just knights rather than specifically in a knighthood relationship with you. A knighthood relationship actually would be important to feudalism, but this series is interested in hedge knights and people like the Brotherhood or Brienne, although she technically hasn't been knighted.

3 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

I think I was quoting Beric.  But how is it absurd?  "... before you" means just that.  Sure, it COULD in some contexts be intended to include everyone in a full circle for 500 yards, whether visible or not.  But you cannot just ASSUME that is necessarily the case.  Without seeing his hand-eye gestures. it's hard to tell who Beric was referring to.  

Right.  Nobody can see all of them.  Hence nobody, even Beric, can be sure that all of them are knights.  The crowd includes women and small children.  Plausibly, it included everyone in the immediate vicinity of the firelight, visible to both Beric and Sandor.

Sure.  But when someone refers to the people "before" me, there is no particular occasion to look behind me to see who is included among those being referred to.  Also, I am aware of no evidence Sanor would have seen Edric if he looked behind him either.  It seems more likely that Ned was somewhere behind Beric.

I think you have to look at the entire conversation. Sandor is calling the group as a whole a sorry lot of smallfolk rather than soldiers, and they respond by noting that many were commoners before the war but are now knights of the hollow hill. Beric isn't trying to be selective when he refers to every man Sandor sees, as he's responding to that conversation about the entire group. Edric could still be excluded as not a "man" though.

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Ned is apparently on hand, though, and appears MUCH later, after Beric calls him to perform typical "squire" type tasks for him.  To Arya he appears "ten or twelve", hardly someone you would assume to be included in the phrase "every man you see before you."  I'm sure Sandor did not think this referred to Arya either, even though he initially mistook her for a boy.

Knights sometimes perform squirely duties for sufficiently high ranking lords. Loras sometimes did it for Renly even after he was no longer's Renly's squire. And if the Brotherhood makes everyone into a knight, that would leave no one but knights to perform those duties.

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Gendry is present, though.  And he is not a knight.  He is obviously not among the people Beric was referring to when he refers to "every man you see before you".  Your argument proves too much.

Gendry is not a member of the brotherhood yet. It is the brotherhood who are equated with the knights of the hollow hill. Edric is part of the group in a way that Gendry is not, although on the other hand he's also younger than Gendry.

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It is relatively normal to be knighted at 15-16, which is Gendry's age, especially when the one knighted is tall and strong, and the one doing the knighting not particularly discriminate.  It is not normal to be knighted at 12.  I'm not ruling it out absolutely.  I just see no basis for assuming it.

Good point. Beric's mass-knighting of smallfolk is itself not normal, but we can't be sure just how far he's willing to go. We haven't heard of him knighting any women, for instance, which may be a barrier waiting for Brienne to break.

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These quotes tend to confirm that Beric knights all the adult men of his fighting force, apparently as young as 15, but not necessarily including women, children, and support staff.  A 12-year old squire, even if present in some battles, is support staff.

I think there's a significant difference between squires and women. Squiring is part of the traditional route to obtaining knighthood. Beric is unusual in knighting people who have not gone through that process, but that doesn't mean he withheld it from someone whom he actually had been training for knighthood and who'd fought alongside him in battle.

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Then again, Edric is a Lord.  By tradition, he does not need to be a knight to knight a knight.

I think it's only kings who can do that if they aren't knights themselves. Ned Stark wouldn't knight anyone, although partly because it's a southron tradition.

[Platypus Rex]

21 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

If there's uncertainty was to whether you already got married to person A, you don't reassure people by marrying person B. 

Sure.  But that has nothing to do with the analogy I actually made.  But sure.  If you change my analogy, my analogy might no longer be apt.

[Platypus Rex]

41 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I think you have to look at the entire conversation. Sandor is calling the group as a whole a sorry lot of smallfolk rather than soldiers, and they respond by noting that many were commoners before the war but are now knights of the hollow hill. Beric isn't trying to be selective when he refers to every man Sandor sees, as he's responding to that conversation about the entire group.

Sandor is mocking and taunting the men who have come forward to threaten him.  His remarks are not addressed to the women, children (and potentially others) who are lurking in the shadows beyond.  

I don't think the context of the conversation helps Ran's argument, or yours

41 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Edric still could be excluded as not a "man" though.

That too.  It is worth noting that AFTER the Hound's trial, Arya has a conversation with Ned.  Ned informs her that he is 12 years old, that he had served Beric as a page since age 7, and that Beric promoted him to a squire at age 10.  He makes no mention of having been knighted at age 12, and I think the obvious explanation for this is that no such event ever occurred.

That's certainly Arya's conclusion.  She thinks to herself that he IS a squire, not that he WAS one.  Arya was present at the Hound's trial, but obviously did not reach the same conclusion Ran did.

Ned tells Arya that he has been in battles, but clearly does not regard himself as a full-fledged combatant.  He is actually SHOCKED when she asks him if he ever killed anyone.  "I'm only 12", he objects.

41 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Gendry is not a member of the brotherhood yet.

Gendry is in fact present, and he is obviously not intended to be included in the phrase "every man you see before you".  That's my point.  If Gendry can be excluded for one reason, Edric can be excluded for another.  The reasons don't have to be identical.

41 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It is the brotherhood who are equated with the knights of the hollow hill. Edric is part of the group in a way that Gendry is not, although on the other hand he's also younger than Gendry.

I recall no quote where Edric is referred to as a member of the Brotherhood.  So to me this is a distinction without a difference.  I would not be surprised to see him referred to as such, because obviously he is an associate.  

41 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I think it's only kings who can do that if they aren't knights themselves.

I think you are right on this.  I stand corrected.

[Ran]

https://imgur.com/a/gOZEhTE

Pretty clear that Edric is included by GRRM -- who writes these appendices himself -- as a member of the Brotherhood, just as Thoros and those listed as followers are. 

As I said to start with, I read Edric as "almost certainly" among those knighted by Beric, leaving some room for doubt simply because it's not explicitly said in his case. Perhaps he isn't. But the evidence for is definitely stronger than the evidence against, which simply turns on him being young when it's not clear that any such distinctions actually matter to Beric at this stage. The cause is all, and the band being all knights just furthers it.

 

 

[Lady Dacey]

On 8/30/2019 at 11:24 PM, Platypus Rex said:

I suppose you could argue that GRRM originally planned for a 5-year gap, and that the original plan was for Edric to be 17 or 18, and a big strong man, by the time he wields Dawn.  So now maybe GRRM just have to follow his original plan and have Edric grow up double-quick.

Jon was barely 15 when he got longclaw from Mormont...

Edric is twelve in ASOS, when Arya is ten. By Winds Arya should be twelve, which makes Edric Dayne at least 14.

He is a lord, and has been trained in arms probably ever since he could walk. At twelve he already wears a real sword while servig as Beric's squire. It's not a greatsword of course, but it's most likely a regular longsword.

Robb started wearing a proper steel sword at fourteen, as we are well awere, and was commanding battles when he was fifteen. 

I don't think it's a stretch whitin the books famework that we will see young Edric wield Dawn by A Dream of Spring... 

[Platypus Rex]

17 hours ago, Ran said:

https://imgur.com/a/gOZEhTE

Pretty clear that Edric is included by GRRM -- who writes these appendices himself -- as a member of the Brotherhood, just as Thoros and those listed as followers are. 

This obviously cannot be taken as meaning what you claim.  I explained why in an earlier response, which for some mysterious reason got deleted.  (Can you shed any light on this?)

Oh well.  I won't repeat my earlier response.  Instead I'll say something else. 

In the Appendix of AFFC and ADWD, under "House Martell", Edric Dayne is listed as "Lord of Starfall, a squire".  Earlier volumes had simply said "Lord of Starfall"  GRRM apparently added the extra 2 words after a point when Edric was no longer squiring for Beric. 

Anyhow, it is clearly not a reference to his squiring for a  particular person.  He is a "squire" and not a "knight", during ADWD.  

[Platypus Rex]

1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

Jon was barely 15 when he got longclaw from Mormont...

Edric is twelve in ASOS, when Arya is ten. By Winds Arya should be twelve, which makes Edric Dayne at least 14.

He is a lord, and has been trained in arms probably ever since he could walk. At twelve he already wears a real sword while servig as Beric's squire. It's not a greatsword of course, but it's most likely a regular longsword.

Robb started wearing a proper steel sword at fourteen, as we are well awere, and was commanding battles when he was fifteen. 

Like I said, I don't think it is inconceivable that Edric will grow up double-quick and be capable of wielding Dawn.   I gave another reason why I think he will not wield Dawn.

But a "longsword" is not a "regular sword".  It is larger than the medieval "arming sword" (which some loosely call a long-sword to distinguish it from the Roman-style gladius).  It is a sword of unusual size.   Widow's Wail might be a "regular sword",  a regular arming sword light enough to be wielded by a 12-year old boy, which is why it was given to Joffrey.  Brienne got the larger sword, a "longsword".

1 hour ago, Lady Dacey said:

I don't think it's a stretch whitin the books famework that we will see young Edric wield Dawn by A Dream of Spring... 

If it is a stretch, it is a stretch that can be made, justified by GRRM's need to fast forward through the 5-year gap.  I already said this.

Which is why I then moved on to my real objection.

[FictionIsntReal]

2 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Edric is twelve in ASOS, when Arya is ten. By Winds Arya should be twelve, which makes Edric Dayne at least 14.

Time is moving more slowly in the books than GRRM initially anticipated. All of ADWD takes place in 300 AC, a year that also included the final chapters of ASOS. TWOW is supposed to container a number of chapters originally intended for ADWD, so it's following right after without a time skip.

[Lady Dacey]

1 hour ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Time is moving more slowly in the books than GRRM initially anticipated. All of ADWD takes place in 300 AC, a year that also included the final chapters of ASOS. TWOW is supposed to container a number of chapters originally intended for ADWD, so it's following right after without a time skip.

No time skip necessary. Arya is already eleven in 300 AC, she should be around twelve in the sample chapter from Winds. 

[Lady Dacey]

3 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

But a "longsword" is not a "regular sword".  It is larger than the medieval "arming sword" (which some loosely call a long-sword to distinguish it from the Roman-style gladius).  It is a sword of unusual size.   Widow's Wail might be a "regular sword",  a regular arming sword light enough to be wielded by a 12-year old boy, which is why it was given to Joffrey.  Brienne got the larger sword, a "longsword

I don't know the first thing about swords, really, but Wikipedia tells me a regular medieval sword worn by knights is called a longsword. The blade should be around 3 feet long, give or take a few inches. 

[The Fattest Leech]

5 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

Jon was barely 15 when he got longclaw from Mormont...

Edric is twelve in ASOS, when Arya is ten. By Winds Arya should be twelve, which makes Edric Dayne at least 14.

He is a lord, and has been trained in arms probably ever since he could walk. At twelve he already wears a real sword while servig as Beric's squire. It's not a greatsword of course, but it's most likely a regular longsword.

Robb started wearing a proper steel sword at fourteen, as we are well awere, and was commanding battles when he was fifteen. 

I don't think it's a stretch whitin the books famework that we will see young Edric wield Dawn by A Dream of Spring... 

Yeah, Martin has said a few different ways and times that children of this story, not unlike children in real Middle Age times, are more mature and grow up "quicker" than what we are used to nowadays.

• He [GRRM] confirmed that the 5-year-gap is now deader than the dodo and has fallen back on his excuse that in the Middle Ages kids had to grow up FAST, so that a 12 or 13-year-old would be much more mature than today.

[Platypus Rex]

4 hours ago, Lady Dacey said:

I don't know the first thing about swords, really, but Wikipedia tells me a regular medieval sword worn by knights is called a longsword. The blade should be around 3 feet long, give or take a few inches. 

The Wikipedia article refers to a "longsword" as being at least in part 2-handed weapon, similar to what D&D players call a "bastard sword", with a blade between 3 feet and 3.5 feet, and a grip with room for 2 hands .  The classic early-mediaval arming sword, perhaps a descendant of the Viking sword, is exclusively a 1-handed weapon, with a 1-handed grip and a blade of maybe 2.5 to 3 feet.

GRRM's "longswords" seem primarily to be 1-handed weapons; though I'm unsure if the hilts are large enough to accommodate 2 hands.  Anyhow, Lion's Tooth, the sword carried by Joffrey, is not a full-sized longsword, but a scaled-down version of one.  When Jon give Needle to Arya, he tells her she is not nearly strong enough to handle a longsword.  It would seem that a full-sized longsword is a bit much for a typical child.

[ThePrinceThatKnewNothing]

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The Ebony Blade was afflicted with a blood curse due to all the blood the original Black Knight had spilled. Dane Whitman eventually purged the Blade of its curse at Doctor Strange's behest by plunging it into the Brazier of Truth while Strange bathed them both in magic fire. The curse returned, however, when the Sub-Mariner used it to kill his wife Marrina. The curse seems to affect different people in different ways. It turned Dane into a statue, it amplified Proctor's gann'josin-based powers, and it granted Sean Dolan great physical powers as Bloodwraith.

 

There's parts of this that back up my feeling that Dawn is the original Ice. And the original ice may have been a blade of the other, but also a blade that potentially brought the dawn. 

I also don't think you have to be a Dayne to wield the sword, I think the Daynes are just protectors. It will be pretty Interesting to see how they determine who's worthy though. 

[R2D]

Arthur Dayne was a shitty person, so I don't think your moral fibre matters.

[FictionIsntReal]

On 9/28/2019 at 4:15 PM, ThePrinceThatKnewNothing said:

There's parts of this that back up my feeling that Dawn is the original Ice. And the original ice may have been a blade of the other, but also a blade that potentially brought the dawn. 

I also don't think you have to be a Dayne to wield the sword, I think the Daynes are just protectors. It will be pretty Interesting to see how they determine who's worthy though. 

If the series gets more magical as it goes along, then perhaps we'll see the sword kill Darkstar when he tries to wield it.

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

If the series gets more magical as it goes along, then perhaps we'll see the sword kill Darkstar when he tries to wield it.

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“Farewell, friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!”

 

[Narsil4]

Dawn may essentially be a White Glass Candle.

So their proximity to Oldtown may not be a coincidence and the Maester's test to determine who can use magic, might be the same test the Daynes use to determine who can wield Dawn.  

[redriver]

It's all in the wrist I reckon.

[Angel Eyes]

Now do you have to stay worthy to wield Dawn, did that play a hand in Arthur Dayne's death?