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U.S. Politics: Moscow Mitch


Martell Spy

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My god, seriously, are we still talking about this?  If he added one word in that quote - rich white kids - then everybody here would nod in agreement.  I don't like Biden.  I very very much hope he's not the nominee.  But I also hate this type of internet whining.  Get the fuck over it.  Is Biden a racist, personally?  Fuck if I know.  And neither does anyone else based on that statement.

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I think there's some conflation of two different things going on in the argument, what I'd call "a racist" and "racist". A racist is someone for whom their racism plays a significant part in their world view, they are hostile and/or contemptuous of people of other races and they're the type of people that need to be ostracised from society to show that being a racist is not acceptable in society.

Someone that is racist but not "a racist" is genuinely most people. There are varying levels of it of course, and varying self awareness. I feel it's generally better to address via education and collaboration rather than ostracism as it isn't backed by intent - but by implicit associations.

I think Biden is pretty clearly racist in that he has a number of these associations and has put other issues ahead of working against racism in the past, but I don't think he's a racist. There are plenty of other examples on the national stage that are though.

55 minutes ago, Triskele said:

Jesus, is his age showing though.  I was worried about this before he got in, and so far I think it's worse than I feared.

Yeah, the number of slips in the last week is definitely concerning. Most of them aren't gaffes, they're cognitive slips and it makes me worry he's hit the point of significant decline.

My feeling that Warren would be the best president of the candidates is firming but I still worry about her ability to win the election necessary to become it.

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1 minute ago, Triskele said:

I'm sorry for being snarky, but it's very frustrating that a post as milquetoast as the one I had put up there still had to be flagged for the racism, somehow.  

there has been an on going discussion on biden’s racism, and you mentioned sullivan, noted ‘race realist’ or whatever, offering biden apologia, and i commented on it. wasn’t making any judgement of you personally. 

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5 minutes ago, Triskele said:

This cannot be reconciled with your previous post which was clearly hostile towards me.

I am well-aware of that part of Sullivan's past, but that wasn't the point of my initial post.  It was whether Biden could both have a core decency and a troubling record on race which I think was very much tracking the recent discussion.  

how so? it was soft and quick dunk on sullivan, that’s it. 

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10 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Someone that is racist but not "a racist" is genuinely most people. There are varying levels of it of course, and varying self awareness. I feel it's generally better to address via education and collaboration rather than ostracism as it isn't backed by intent - but by implicit associations.

I think Biden is pretty clearly racist in that he has a number of these associations and has put other issues ahead of working against racism in the past, but I don't think he's a racist. There are plenty of other examples on the national stage that are though.

I think this is ignoring context.  Casting Biden as a racist would have been laughable even ten years ago.  Are there differing levels?  Sure.  A lot of people that a lot of people on here call "racist" I'd rather qualify as high on the racial resentment scale.  You know how Biden would rank on that scale, at least in terms of his public policy?  Pretty fucking low.  Which is why I don't really care too much that he may personally be a racist, just like it didn't matter that LBJ was personally a racist when he passed the CRA and VRA or Truman was personally racist when he integrated the military.  

If you think Biden's a racist, fine.  Fight against him in the primary, I'm with you.  But let's not start equivocating to the extent Trump can be able to tweet something like "see, we're all the same."

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17 minutes ago, Triskele said:

I'm sorry for being snarky, but it's very frustrating that a post as milquetoast as the one I had put up there still had to be flagged for the racism, somehow.  

It's an interesting feedback loop. Even among liberals, being called "racist" is not as serious an insult as it once was... but this means that people are less reluctant to flag even milquetoast statements as racist which means that the word becomes even less serious of and insult and so on. With any luck at all, it will soon diminish to the point of irrelevance. Given that Biden is being labeled racist now, it appears to be well on its way.

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8 minutes ago, Triskele said:

 

I don't want to thread derail, but here's what you wrote:

 

Accusing me of whining and calling me "hoss?"  An insult in the ace/chief/boss territory.  

I assume you're in your cups right now (props if so) and that explains it.  

ok, that was my fault. that quoted bit was directed at dmc, should have quoted or tagged. 

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35 minutes ago, DMC said:

 

If you think Biden's a racist, fine.  Fight against him in the primary, I'm with you.  But let's not start equivocating to the extent Trump can be able to tweet something like "see, we're all the same."

I'm literally saying he's not a racist in the post you're replying to and at the very least implying, and it was meant to be more than implication,  that Trump is. I'm specifically saying he's not the same as Trump.

My only point in even posting was trying to get people to cool off on the fighting because I felt they were primarily talking about different things.

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53 minutes ago, DMC said:

I think this is ignoring context.  Casting Biden as a racist would have been laughable even ten years ago.  Are there differing levels?  Sure.  A lot of people that a lot of people on here call "racist" I'd rather qualify as high on the racial resentment scale.  You know how Biden would rank on that scale, at least in terms of his public policy?  Pretty fucking low.  Which is why I don't really care too much that he may personally be a racist, just like it didn't matter that LBJ was personally a racist when he passed the CRA and VRA or Truman was personally racist when he integrated the military.  

If you think Biden's a racist, fine.  Fight against him in the primary, I'm with you.  But let's not start equivocating to the extent Trump can be able to tweet something like "see, we're all the same."

I cant belive that being racist doesnt affect the way you do politics. Like, that's the point. 

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30 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I'm literally saying he's not a racist in the post you're replying to and at the very least implying, and it was meant to be more than implication,  that Trump is. I'm specifically saying he's not the same as Trump.

You said:

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

I think Biden is pretty clearly racist in that he has a number of these associations and has put other issues ahead of working against racism in the past, but I don't think he's a racist. There are plenty of other examples on the national stage that are though.

It's admittedly hard to parse that - as you start saying Biden is pretty racist and then end the sentence with you don't think he's racist.  I just wanted to clarify, and was more responding generally.  I'm still a huge admirer of ya, but my point is I'm sick of this "racism" attack.

12 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

I cant belive that being racist doesnt affect the way you do politics. Like, that's the point. 

Elected officials - and those seeking office - are beholden to self-interest.  Biden as the Democratic nominee knows he can't be racist.  It's in Trump's interest to be racist, not Biden's.

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17 minutes ago, DMC said:

You said:

It's admittedly hard to parse that - as you start saying Biden is pretty racist and then end the sentence with you don't think he's racist.  I just wanted to clarify, and was more responding generally.  I'm still a huge admirer of ya, but my point is I'm sick of this "racism" attack.

Elected officials - and those seeking office - are beholden to self-interest.  Biden as the Democratic nominee knows he can't be racist.  It's in Trump's interest to be racist, not Biden's.

It seems pretty clear to me, everyone does or has done or said something racist.  That doesn't make them a racist like Trump or Steve King.

Also seems pretty clear to me that this probabaly doesn't even make the top ten most racist things Biden has ever done.  

Point being, this is going to be a liability for Biden, and Biden would be a liability for Dems.

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2 minutes ago, larrytheimp said:

It seems pretty clear to me, everyone does or has done or said something racist.  That doesn't make them a racist like Trump or Steve King.

Also seems pretty clear to me that this probabaly doesn't even make the top ten most racist things Biden has ever done.  

Point being, this is going to be a liability for Biden, and Biden would be a liability for Dems.

I agree with all that, word for word.  But that's not what's been discussed about Biden the past, I dunno, 16 hours?  It's been plenty of direct accusations of racism -- and even pigeonholing him as such.  So, no, I think you're wrong in terms of the racist/racism thing.  It's a distinction without a difference for the mass public.  Stop calling Joe Biden a racist.  Ultimately, that either will not matter or will help Donald Trump get reelected.  It's as simple as that.

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

You said:

It's admittedly hard to parse that - as you start saying Biden is pretty racist and then end the sentence with you don't think he's racist.  I just wanted to clarify, and was more responding generally.  I'm still a huge admirer of ya, but my point is I'm sick of this "racism" attack.

You're missing the "a" part that I'm using as the signifier of the difference. Biden is racist (according to me) in the sense that you and larry discussed above - he is something that has racist implicit associations and it almost certainly colours his actions at times, but he is not racist. Trump is.

With the construction I'm using, being racist is a description of thoughts and behaviours that you sometimes have/exhibit. Being a racist is functionally an identity and its paired with conscious views of superiority or hostility etc. Both are important, both have a huge impact on the POC in our nations, but need to be confronted and changed in different ways. One damns the behaviour, the other damns the person.

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5 minutes ago, karaddin said:

You're missing the "a" part that I'm using as the signifier of the difference. Biden is racist (according to me) in the sense that you and larry discussed above - he is something that has racist implicit associations and it almost certainly colours his actions at times, but he is not racist. Trump is.

Like I said, this is a distinction without a different for the vast majority of voters.  I appreciate the distinction, and, again, what you're actually referring to is the difference between overt racists - which let's be frank Trump and the overwhelming (maybe all of) number of his supporters are at this point - as opposed to those that merely rank high on the racial resentment scale.  Which in terms of the latter is a lot of people that tend to vote Democrat, or at least 3rd party in 2016.  

This is getting away from the point though.  Point is, if you want to yell at Biden supporting racist policies in the past, have at it.  But the most recent comment?  No.  Stop whining.  He clearly misspoke.  Enough with this shit.

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