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Angel Eyes

Why did Stannis marry Selyse Florent?

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Prominent family with a rich history and could have a claim on Highgarden....probably a political move & for dowry.

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On 8/11/2019 at 9:53 PM, Eden-Mackenzie said:

They were married before Stannis had a cause, and after Robert had a legal heir (or at least had one on the way). I doubt Stannis would have fallen in love with anyone, so it seems the likeliest explanation for their marriage was it was time for Stannis to get married and Selyse was available. It wasn’t a love match, and it wasn’t politically advantageous, which really just leaves marriage of convenience. 

That means Stannis was 2nd in line to the throne.  It still makes no sense that he married a women who was , at best , 7th in the pecking order of her family, which was around 3rd or 4th in the pecking order of the Reach.

 

 

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On 8/15/2019 at 10:50 PM, dsjj251 said:

That means Stannis was 2nd in line to the throne.  It still makes no sense that he married a women who was , at best , 7th in the pecking order of her family, which was around 3rd or 4th in the pecking order of the Reach.

Starks: no adult women.  Tullys: no adult unmarried women. Arryns: no adult women. Lannisters: no adult unmarried women. Tyrells: no adult women. Martells: no adult women. Greyjoys: no adult women. Baratheons: no adult women (just for completeness). 

Stannis wasn’t going to marry a Lord Paramount’s daughter or sister, there weren’t any available. 

My point in mentioning Stannis no longer being first in line was just that - he’s no longer first. Yes, he’s still in the line of succession, and yes, first born son is not guaranteed to inherit the throne, but now that Robert has a (nominal) heir, from the viewpoint of the throne, Stannis doesn't need a politically strong marriage. Stannis marrying someone from a minor house actually helps solidify Joffrey’s position, since if Robert were to, oh I don’t know, die young and unexpectedly, Stannis could get the idea to challenge the underaged Joffrey for his throne. While I’m sure Robert wasn’t too up on his history lessons, I guarantee Jon Arryn and Tywin Lannister were: the Dance of the Dragons was able to happen because of Aegon II’s Hightower relatives; if his mother had been from a lesser house, they wouldn’t have been able to usurp the throne as easily as they did.

So yeah, a Florent marriage for Stannis the Heir doesn’t make political sense, but for Stannis the only-going-to-keep-moving-down-the-line it makes perfect sense, from the view of the crown.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/17/2019 at 9:45 AM, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Starks: no adult women.  Tullys: no adult unmarried women. Arryns: no adult women. Lannisters: no adult unmarried women. Tyrells: no adult women. Martells: no adult women. Greyjoys: no adult women. Baratheons: no adult women (just for completeness). 

Stannis wasn’t going to marry a Lord Paramount’s daughter or sister, there weren’t any available. 

My point in mentioning Stannis no longer being first in line was just that - he’s no longer first. Yes, he’s still in the line of succession, and yes, first born son is not guaranteed to inherit the throne, but now that Robert has a (nominal) heir, from the viewpoint of the throne, Stannis doesn't need a politically strong marriage. Stannis marrying someone from a minor house actually helps solidify Joffrey’s position, since if Robert were to, oh I don’t know, die young and unexpectedly, Stannis could get the idea to challenge the underaged Joffrey for his throne. While I’m sure Robert wasn’t too up on his history lessons, I guarantee Jon Arryn and Tywin Lannister were: the Dance of the Dragons was able to happen because of Aegon II’s Hightower relatives; if his mother had been from a lesser house, they wouldn’t have been able to usurp the throne as easily as they did.

So yeah, a Florent marriage for Stannis the Heir doesn’t make political sense, but for Stannis the only-going-to-keep-moving-down-the-line it makes perfect sense, from the view of the crown.

Lets be clear, Lords were fine with marrying 20 year old men to 13 year old girls, so while none of the 9 great houses had women of suitable ages, im guessing a number of notable houses had women higher in the pecking order than 7th.  That includes House Florent itself.

The Dance of Dragons did not happen because Aegon II was the son of  a Hightower, it happened because men of the small council did not want to be ruled by Prince Daemon or Rhaeynra's perceived bastards there after as well as the argument that men should come first.   Remember at the time of the Dance, House Valeryon was considered the wealthiest house in all of the 7 Kingdoms, and no one could match their fleets. 

So Rhaenyra had a fleet,  the ground numbers(The North, Vale,  The majority of the crownlands, and the Riverlands), and she had more Dragons. they still rebelled against her. 

As for marriages themselves,   If that argument was true, Robert would have never allowed Renly to visit with the Martells. 

 

Last but not least, Stannis was lord of Dragonstone in his own right(technically). So his child would be a Lord regardless of who was king. 

Edited by dsjj251

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2 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Lets be clear, Lords were fine with marrying 20 year old men to 13 year old girls, so while none of the 9 great houses had women of suitable ages, im guessing a number of notable houses had women higher in the pecking order than 7th.  That includes House Florent itself.

The Dance of Dragons did not happen because Aegon II was the son of  a Hightower, it happened because men of the small council did not want to be ruled by Prince Daemon or Rhaeynra's perceived bastards there after as well as the argument that men should come first.   Remember at the time of the Dance, House Valeryon was considered the wealthiest house in all of the 7 Kingdoms, and no one could match their fleets. 

So Rhaenyra had a fleet,  the ground numbers(The North, Vale,  The majority of the crownlands, and the Riverlands), and she had more Dragons. they still rebelled against her. 

As for marriages themselves,   If that argument was true, Robert would have never allowed Renly to visit with the Martells. 

 

Last but not least, Stannis was lord of Dragonstone in his own right(technically). So his child would be a Lord regardless of who was king. 

A small council led by Otto Hightower, who had a history of being against Daemon, but who also saw a chance to make his grandson king and took it, he probably saw it as a win-win that Aegon’s crown would come at Daemon’s expense. As you’ve pointed out, the green side was already at a disadvantage on paper. Without Hightower support and Hightower allies, it would have been even more pronounced, and may have never gotten off the ground.

Asha Greyjoy and Arianne Martell were each about 10 when Stannis married  Selyse, but seeing as Balon Greyjoy was just a few years short of rebelling, and Arianne was being saved for Viserys, each would have made excuses, and Stannis doesn’t seem the type to take a child bride besides.

It’s easy to say surely one of the families would have had a better candidate than Selyse, but we don’t really have enough information to definitively prove that point - we don’t have a complete history of engagements amongst the lords and ladies of Westeros.  Lollys Stokeworth is of an age with Stannis, and is definitely available, but that match would hardly have been advantageous. Walder Frey would likely have had multiple daughters and granddaughters of the right age and unmarried/not engaged, but the Freys aren’t really held in high regard either. 

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18 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

A small council led by Otto Hightower, who had a history of being against Daemon, but who also saw a chance to make his grandson king and took it, he probably saw it as a win-win that Aegon’s crown would come at Daemon’s expense. As you’ve pointed out, the green side was already at a disadvantage on paper. Without Hightower support and Hightower allies, it would have been even more pronounced, and may have never gotten off the ground.

 

as you admit, they were still at a disadvantage, which means they clearly rebelled for another reason other than just being a powerful family. 

Quote

Asha Greyjoy and Arianne Martell were each about 10 when Stannis married  Selyse, but seeing as Balon Greyjoy was just a few years short of rebelling, and Arianne was being saved for Viserys, each would have made excuses, and Stannis doesn’t seem the type to take a child bride besides.

I disagree, Stannis would have done as commanded by Robert, child bride or not , 

 

Quote

It’s easy to say surely one of the families would have had a better candidate than Selyse, but we don’t really have enough information to definitively prove that point - we don’t have a complete history of engagements amongst the lords and ladies of Westeros.  Lollys Stokeworth is of an age with Stannis, and is definitely available, but that match would hardly have been advantageous. Walder Frey would likely have had multiple daughters and granddaughters of the right age and unmarried/not engaged, but the Freys aren’t really held in high regard either. 

 

I think we can look at the ages of some of the children in the series and assume the marriages of their parents took place after Roberts rebellion. Thereby showing Stannis had a good bit of options. 

Maybe Robert was trying to punish Stannis, but certainly the marriage was not up to par. 

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I would not call Stannis a fine catch either.  He's bald in the books.  His prospects in life were pretty low and Dragonstone is not a happening place unless you happen to have dragons, which Selyse doesn't.  It's not too far from marrying a Jorah Mormont.

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On 8/18/2019 at 10:52 PM, dsjj251 said:

as you admit, they were still at a disadvantage, which means they clearly rebelled for another reason other than just being a powerful family. 

I never said they rebelled because they were an influential family, but it was clearly one of the contributing factors for both the rebellion and its successes. As was their possession of King’s Landing at the onset - if Otto, Aegon, and the rest had been in Oldtown instead of King’s Landing when Viserys died, things could have played out very differently. 

On 8/18/2019 at 10:52 PM, dsjj251 said:

I disagree, Stannis would have done as commanded by Robert, child bride or not , 

I think we can look at the ages of some of the children in the series and assume the marriages of their parents took place after Roberts rebellion. Thereby showing Stannis had a good bit of options. 

Maybe Robert was trying to punish Stannis, but certainly the marriage was not up to par. 

Yes, Stannis would have done as commanded, if he was commanded, but if he had any choice in the matter, say between a pretty child bride or Selyse, it does not seem out of character for Stannis to choose Selyse. And since we know absolutely nothing of the history of the majority of the negotiations of marriages in the books, you cannot truly say there were plenty of options for Stannis. I remember a few years ago there being a discussion of how implausible it was for Ned to have not made marriage pacts for any of his children, but in particular Robb, Sansa, and Arya, before the onset of story. All of those marriages between Stannis’s possible brides and their not-Stannis husbands could have been arranged before, or even during, Robert’s Rebellion. 

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54 minutes ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

I never said they rebelled because they were an influential family, but it was clearly one of the contributing factors for both the rebellion and its successes. As was their possession of King’s Landing at the onset - if Otto, Aegon, and the rest had been in Oldtown instead of King’s Landing when Viserys died, things could have played out very differently. 

 

 

You said it was a deciding factor. I disagree. I dont think it matters, I think Aegon being a male and everyone in power hating Daemon  were the only factors that actually mattered. 

None of this really matters, because Stannis still rebelled from Dragonstone, negating the point you are trying to make about location and family power. 

 

As for the below argument, its more plausible to argue that Stannis had options than it is to claim Selyse was his only option, again, ages of children in the main story show that. 

Quote

 

Quote

Yes, Stannis would have done as commanded, if he was commanded, but if he had any choice in the matter, say between a pretty child bride or Selyse, it does not seem out of character for Stannis to choose Selyse. And since we know absolutely nothing of the history of the majority of the negotiations of marriages in the books, you cannot truly say there were plenty of options for Stannis. I remember a few years ago there being a discussion of how implausible it was for Ned to have not made marriage pacts for any of his children, but in particular Robb, Sansa, and Arya, before the onset of story. All of those marriages between Stannis’s possible brides and their not-Stannis husbands could have been arranged before, or even during, Robert’s Rebellion. 

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On 8/11/2019 at 9:29 PM, Angel Eyes said:

A marriage between Stannis Baratheon and Selyse Florent seems like an odd match, aside from a lack of any other suitable candidate. She’s not pretty (mustache and large ears), has an odious personality (Stannis’ friendship with Davos and actual care for the realm set him higher), and she was pretty low on the totem pole of the Florents as the daughter of the third of four sons. The Florents didn’t add much to Stannis’ cause, apart from Imry Florent, who led Stannis’ fleet into a trap at Blackwater. Plus they were divided when the WoFK started, which made them a liability. 

If you can stand some suggestions from the symbolism, I think the Stannis-Florent match was supposed to be a compare/contrast to the Renly-Tyrell match.

As others pointed out, the Florents and Tyrells both see themselves as the logical House to rule Highgarden, traditional seat of the Gardner family and closely affiliated with the legendary Garth Greenhand. I suspect that the legacy of Garth Greenhand is a major theme throughout the books - who will best promote fertility and abundance and, basically, the end of winter and return of summer. Using the old archetypes from the Golden Bough thesis, the race is on to see who will be the "Summer King."

Note: the Florents have the additional Garth Greenhand connection of bearing the fox sigil associated with Garth's daughter, Florys the Fox.

Renly and Stannis are each positioned to marry one of these competing heirs of Greenhand but, for different reasons, they are not very successful in their quests to become Summer King. For one thing, they are not able or willing to procreate effectively. Stannis has one child who turns to stone and then doesn't really want to sleep with his wife again. Renly is gay and doesn't want to sleep with Margaery; he is in love with Ser Loras. Stannis appears to have another child or two with Melisandre, but that baby is (or the two babies are) a shadow and we don't know where they go after they kill Renly and Ser Cortnay Penrose.

The Florent surname and sigil (blue flowers + fox) and the Tyrell sigil (gold rose on green) are also reminders of the flower theme in the symbolism. I suspect we are supposed to examine Stannis and Renly's marriages in relationship to the somewhat mysterious Florian and Jonquil story: "Florian" has a "flora" feel to it and "Jonquil" is also the name of a flower. (I also think we are supposed to see the Ser Galladon story as a variation on the Florian/Jonquil story.)

Instead of being a fool/knight with a magic sword, we know that Stannis has a fake "magic" sword, created by Melisandre to help him look like the expectation for Azor Ahai. GRRM loves irony, and he is having fun with the parallel between the legendary heroic knight, Florian, and the "mummer" Azor Ahai who is stage-managed by Melisandre. In addition, the various Jonquil candidates in the story are kinda scary (Melisandre) and/or unattractive (Selyse), not like the beautiful maid the legend would lead us to expect.

GRRM breaks another stereotype with Renly: this knight doesn't love the beautiful maid. but the maid's brother. What little we know about the Florian and Jonquil story includes the information that it has a sad ending, so Renly's early death may be consistent with the story; we simply don't know yet. The twist, though, is that Brienne takes Renly's sword when she flees from the tent where he is murdered. There is a lot of "Which is the maid?" subversion of tropes in the interaction between Jaime and Brienne, but the role reversal may start with Brienne's interaction with Renly.

In a nutshell, GRRM is giving us variations on a theme with Renly and Stannis. One is green and the other red but they are playing out similar scenarios, trying to become the next king. Each is also playing out a Florian and Jonquil story, marrying a flower, but each match has different problems.

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Posted (edited)
On 8/20/2019 at 9:23 AM, dsjj251 said:

 

You said it was a deciding factor. I disagree. I dont think it matters, I think Aegon being a male and everyone in power hating Daemon  were the only factors that actually mattered. 

None of this really matters, because Stannis still rebelled from Dragonstone, negating the point you are trying to make about location and family power. 

Was Stannis successful? Is he now King on the Iron Throne? No. 

If Cersei and Joffrey had not been in King’s Landing when Robert died, and if they did not have the backing of Tywin Lannister from the onset, and the addition of the Tyrell forces since Blackwater, things would have unfolded very differently. Location + family connections.

Your contention that Rhaenyra was a girl and Aegon was a boy was the first of only two deciding factor ignores the fact that, before his grandson was in a position to contend for the Iron Throne, Otto Hightower wanted Rhaenyra to succeed Viserys, and started advocating for Viserys to name her as heir before Queen Aemma died. It was only after his daughter gave birth to the King’s son that he immediately started agitating to put Rhaenyra aside in favor of Aegon, eleven years before she married Daemon. Family connections.

Rhaenyra being a princess rather than a prince may have a factor for some, but it may also have been the excuse others used to justify their treason, committed in the name of remaining in power, in the death chamber of the King they served in life and betrayed in death. Location. 

As far as everyone in power hated Daemon being the second of only two deciding factors leading to the Dance, it was Otto Hightower who had an intense rivalry and hatred of Daemon, and Otto Hightower who led the council as Hand. Family connections. 

You are vastly oversimplifying the story by completely ignoring the myriad of other, interwoven factors, which include but are not limited to location and family connections. 

Edited by Eden-Mackenzie
Trying to get rid of funky mobile formatting

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16 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Was Stannis successful? Is he now King on the Iron Throne? No. 

If Cersei and Joffrey had not been in King’s Landing when Robert died, and if they did not have the backing of Tywin Lannister from the onset, and the addition of the Tyrell forces since Blackwater, things would have unfolded very differently. Location + family connections.

Your contention that Rhaenyra was a girl and Aegon was a boy was the first of only two deciding factor ignores the fact that, before his grandson was in a position to contend for the Iron Throne, Otto Hightower wanted Rhaenyra to succeed Viserys, and started advocating for Viserys to name her as heir before Queen Aemma died. It was only after his daughter gave birth to the King’s son that he immediately started agitating to put Rhaenyra aside in favor of Aegon, eleven years before she married Daemon. Family connections.

Rhaenyra being a princess rather than a prince may have a factor for some, but it may also have been the excuse others used to justify their treason, committed in the name of remaining in power, in the death chamber of the King they served in life and betrayed in death. Location. 

As far as everyone in power hated Daemon being the second of only two deciding factors leading to the Dance, it was Otto Hightower who had an intense rivalry and hatred of Daemon, and Otto Hightower who led the council as Hand. Family connections. 

You are vastly oversimplifying the story by completely ignoring the myriad of other, interwoven factors, which include but are not limited to location and family connections. 

I think we have come to the point where you have forgotten your own argument, as I never argued that Stannis was successful or that his success in and of itself mattered.  In fact, I have point blank argued that rebellion in both cases came because of debates about right of succession.  While you claimed that it was based on family power, even though in both cases Stannis and Aegon were the underdogs with smaller armies. 

As for the Aegon, Rhaenyra, and Daemon argument, it actually is simple, for some reason you are over complicating it. Sons  come before daughters, and daughters come before uncles. 

Rhaenyra was the rightful heir over Daemon by all the traditions of Westeros. Viserys naming her so was technically just a formality. Whether Targaryens' follow that tradition is up for interpretation as many believe no female can inherit the Iron Throne while a male lives. But thats  an entirely different argument. 

BUT, once Aegon II was born, he was the rightful heir over Rhaenyra by tradition.  This does not mean Otto Hightower didnt want to keep power for the sake of keeping power, but at the same time, by tradition, all 3 of his grandsons had a better claim to the throne than Rhaenyra. 

 

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