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Black Sword, White Sword, Red Sword


BootsWhiskersPounce

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I am new to these forums.  I apologize if I am doing anything incorrectly.  First, thank you to all of the people sharing theories and resources here and elsewhere which have helped me and have been fun to read and hear.
 
I will try to keep this focused and not touch on all of the interesting theories out there, but I wanted to hear others' thoughts about some theories.  I'm sure others have had similar ideas, and I hope I am not copying stuff that has been covered before.  But searching around I have not found something that quite matches this topic, so I thought it would be best to start a new thread.
 
I'm just going to focus on one idea here, which I don't recall seeing elsewhere:
 
I think Jon Snow's story can be broken into three stages: Black Sword, White Sword, and Red Sword.
 
I'm not sure this is a "theory" and I don't have a lot of evidence, but it seems to me to make sense.  It could be a nice little pattern to Jon's story.  This may or may not be an allusion to the Magnum Opus in alchemy, which sometimes was said to have four stages but sometimes was said to have three: nigredo (black), albedo (white), and rubedo (red).
 
But basically Jon's story might go something like this: He starts out in the "Black Sword" stage and seems to be doing well as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but then he dies.  Then he comes back to life and enters the "White Sword" stage and becomes Lord Commander of the Queens/Kingsguard and seems like this heroic "chosen one" wielding Dawn, but then he dies again in a fire.  But then he (or his offspring) "comes back" in some weird way as a dragon and thus enters the "Red Sword" stage and...well, I'm not really sure after that.
 
STAGE 1
Black Sword:
 
During this stage, a lot of people believe that Jon is the son of Ned Stark and Wylla, which I don't believe but which is a rumor in Westeros.
 
This stage has already happened: thinking he had little claim to any other titles, Jon went and joined the Night's Watch, and eventually became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  Night's Watch members are known as "black brothers", and their vows include the line "I am the sword in the darkness".  This could be viewed as Jon's first attempt to forge a way to protect the "realms of men".
 
During this "Black Sword" stage Jon attempts to get people south of the wall to get along with people north of the wall, and for his efforts he is murdered (in ice and hatred, as in Robert Frost's poem Fire and Ice).  But I think he will kind of succeed: after his death, people inspired by him will start working together more.
 
STAGE 2
White Sword:
 
I believe the popular theory that Jon will come back to life.  I think his "White Sword" stage will then begin.  During this stage, a lot of people will believe that Jon's parents are Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne, which I don't believe but which is another rumor in Westeros.
 
I think Jon will leave the Night's Watch.  He might for a time become a soldier or something similar.  But more important is that, since he will be viewed as a member of the Dayne family, I think Jon will become the "Sword of the Morning".
 
The previous "Sword of the Morning", Arthur Dayne, was also the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and I think Jon will do the same.
 
This is the most important thing of all in this stage: I think Jon will become Lord Commander of the Queens/Kingsguard.  Members of the Queens/Kingsguard are known as "white swords", and they take vows that are similar to the Night's Watch vows.  This could be viewed as Jon's second attempt to forge a way to protect the "realms of men".
 
I am not sure how Jon would come to be in the Queens/Kingsguard, but Jon is a skilled fighter, is respected by many as a leader and person, and seems likely to be even more highly regarded after coming back to life, so it seems like a position he might be offered (or be "forced" to take as part of some sort of agreement).
 
During this stage, ever the mediator, I think Jon will again be trying to get enemies to work together, and I think that again he will be murdered (this time in fire due to others' desires to eliminate competition to the throne, again like the Robert Frost poem Fire and Ice).  Thus he "perishes twice", but the world need not "perish", partially because he will once again kind of succeed: I think he will inspire people to work together more after his death.
 
STAGE 3
Red Sword:
 
During this stage, people in Westeros might come to believe (correctly, I think) that Jon is the child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.  (I also believe the popular theory that Meera Reed is Jon's twin sister).
 
(It's possible this information might come out before he is killed the second time; that could provide motive, or possibly reason to frame a motive.)
 
This makes Jon a Targaryen and a serious contender to be the Prince who was Promised, if there is such a thing.  That would mean Jon likely has something to do with Lightbringer, if there is such a thing.  Lightbringer is called the "Red Sword of Heroes".  This could be viewed as Jon's third attempt to forge a way to protect the "realms of men".
 
Now, though I think he is a Targaryen, I do NOT think that Jon will be a primary dragonrider of Drogon, Viserion, or Rhaegal.  I think Daenerys Targaryen will be the main rider of Drogon, Tyrion Lannister will be the main rider of Viserion, and Meera Reed will be the main rider of Rhaegal.  One by one:
- Daenerys-Drogon: Daenerys has already ridden Drogon.
- Tyrion-Viserion: I believe the popular theory that the Mad King is Tyrion's father, so he is a Targaryen.  This would make Tyrion the half-brother of Daenerys, and Viserion's namesake Viserys was Daenerys' brother.  Viserion's colors (gold/cream/white) seem to match Tyrion's hair.  And Tyrion is a Lannister "lion", while Viserion is said to have "a roar that would send a hundred lions running".
- Meera-Rhaegal: As I mentioned previously, I believe the popular theory that Meera and Jon are twins, and their parents are Rhaegar + Lyanna (the L in Rhaegal may be a nod to Lyanna).  Rhaegal's colors (green/bronze) seem to match Meera's eyes/outfits (and all of the "green" stuff associated with the Reeds).  And I think the fact that Rhaenys rode the dragon Meraxes is a clear hint that Meera will ride Rhaegal.
 
So, what about Jon?  I think Jon is either going to become a dragon, will "fuse" with a dragon, or will "father" a dragon.
 
Much of the rest of the stuff I say about this "Red Sword" stage is just stealing, butchering, and modifying ideas from other posters, such as in this thread: https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/103266-r-l-lightbringer-updated-with-part-ii/.
 
I believe the popular theory that Lightbringer is not literally a sword, but is actually a dragon/person.  It could be a three-headed red dragon like the one on the Targaryens' seal.  (Thus the whole "the dragon has three heads" thing could be literal, which would be kind of ironic considering how characters don't seem to be taking it literally, while other prophecies seem to not be meant to be taken literally or might have translation errors.)
 
Jon could get connected to the dragon in some way (likely Drogon, if that's the case, which could be the "third" attempt to forge a connection with Daenerys' three dragons), as that thread discusses.  Or Jon's child could be a dragon.  Or Jon himself might be the dragon, coming back to life phoenix-like, rising out of ashes.  The phoenix was sometimes tied to the "rubedo" stage in alchemy.  Or maybe some weird combination of things.
 
However it works, I think Daenerys will literally be the mother of the dragon.  When she tried to give birth before, the result was reptilian.  The "cry of anguish and ecstasy" mentioned in the Azor Ahai prophesy could relate to Daenerys giving birth (the language is similar to that used when Melisandre gave birth to that shadow thing).  And that thread I linked to has lots of interesting stuff about "Nissa Nissa" meaning "moon moon" and suggesting two "moons" from which dragons are born: Lyanna and Daenerys.
 
If Jon indeed is "re-born" as a dragon, then he could be viewed as the "son of ice and fire" in lots of different ways: Lyanna (ice) and Daenerys (fire) as "mothers", and Rhaegar (fire) and Ned (ice) as "fathers".
 
And if Daenerys plays a role in setting the fire that burns Jon and in riding the dragon that she births, then that might fit in some way with the "one to love" fire and mount.  Although mothers of dragonriders sadly seem to die often in childbirth, and the whole "moon cracking" thing seems worrisome.
 
I have no idea what the purpose of this dragon would be.  It seems to me that the ending might be more likely to involve some sort of peace agreement or sacrifice than a fight-to-the-death type of thing, so I'm not sure what another dragon is needed for, or if it would even be good.  But, the point is, I think Jon's last stage will be this "Red Sword" stage, which will involve him being very strongly tied to a dragon in some way.
 
 
FINALLY
Somewhat Off-Topic:
 
I don't want to go too off topic into other theories.  But while on the topic of Jon Snow, a few related things:
 
One other thing in that thread I linked to is the idea that Jon's story follows "ranks" of Mithraism.  This would fit fine with the black sword, white sword, red sword stages listed here.  The fourth "rank" is "lion", which would make sense if Jon serves a Lannister as a member of the Queens/Kingsguard.
 
And, as others have noted, there are lots of other possible connections involving common groups of three in the series (often involving ice/hatred/revenge, lions/gold/thrones/titles/princes, and fire/desire/passion).  And, as others have noted, lots of other connections to Robert Frost's poem Fire and Ice besides Jon, such as characters seemingly driven by desire/passion (Daenerys, Littlefinger, etc.) and those seemingly driven by hatred/vengeance (Arya, Varys, etc.).  This is getting more off topic and might not be likely to happen, so I won't get into it much more, but I have long thought it would be interesting (if maybe not all pleasant) if some of these characters had to sacrifice important things in their lives in order to save the people of Westeros: if Arya were to have the opportunity to get revenge against somebody she thinks is responsible for Jon's death but would decide "Not Today" and let her enemy live; if Daenerys were to not only give up her chance at the throne but would also decide that her dragons can't be tamed and would poison Drogon; etc.  But I am getting off topic of Jon so will stop here.
 
Thank you for taking the time to read.  I'm sorry again if this has been covered before or if I'm posting it in the wrong place.  I would love to hear any thoughts.
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First welcome to the forums :cheers:

You posted in the right place, no worries :)

Nice thread! 

Some of my thoughts on it:

49 minutes ago, BootsWhiskersPounce said:
STAGE 1
Black Sword:
 
During this stage, a lot of people believe that Jon is the son of Ned Stark and Wylla, which I don't believe but which is a rumor in Westeros.
 
This stage has already happened: thinking he had little claim to any other titles, Jon went and joined the Night's Watch, and eventually became Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.  Night's Watch members are known as "black brothers", and their vows include the line "I am the sword in the darkness".  This could be viewed as Jon's first attempt to forge a way to protect the "realms of men".
 
During this "Black Sword" stage Jon attempts to get people south of the wall to get along with people north of the wall, and for his efforts he is murdered (in ice and hatred, as in Robert Frost's poem Fire and Ice).  But I think he will kind of succeed: after his death, people inspired by him will start working together more.

As you said this has already happened & fits nicely with your theory. 

51 minutes ago, BootsWhiskersPounce said:
STAGE 2
White Sword:
 
I believe the popular theory that Jon will come back to life.  I think his "White Sword" stage will then begin.  During this stage, a lot of people will believe that Jon's parents are Ned Stark and Ashara Dayne, which I don't believe but which is another rumor in Westeros

I don't buy much into people starting to think his parents are Ned & Ashara but people already do think it so I don't think that changes much. 

What, to you, is the significance of what others believe to be Jon's parentage in regards to the black, white, red sword scenario? 

54 minutes ago, BootsWhiskersPounce said:
 
This is the most important thing of all in this stage: I think Jon will become Lord Commander of the Queens/Kingsguard.  Members of the Queens/Kingsguard are known as "white swords", and they take vows that are similar to the Night's Watch vows.  This could be viewed as Jon's second attempt to forge a way to protect the "realms of men".

 

I am not sure how Jon would come to be in the Queens/Kingsguard, but Jon is a skilled fighter, is respected by many as a leader and person, and seems likely to be even more highly regarded after coming back to life, so it seems like a position he might be offered (or be "forced" to take as part of some sort of agreement

I can't see Jon becoming LC of any Kings/Queensguard for the Lannisters unless he is trying to infiltrate the ranks for some reason. But he could become LC of Daenerys QG. I think attempting to get the people of the North to get along with Dany & Co would fit here as well. 

 

56 minutes ago, BootsWhiskersPounce said:

During this stage, ever the mediator, I think Jon will again be trying to get enemies to work together, and I think that again he will be murdered (this time in fire due to others' desires to eliminate competition to the throne, again like the Robert Frost poem Fire and Ice).  Thus he "perishes twice", but the world need not "perish", partially because he will once again kind of succeed: I think he will inspire people to work together more after his death

I think it would be a cheap trick & very Un-George like to have Jon die off & return again but possibly some sort of symbolic death? Like the 'Kill the boy' death he goes through? 

Do you think the actual sword he wields comes into play at all in this? 

59 minutes ago, BootsWhiskersPounce said:
STAGE 3
Red Sword:
 
During this stage, people in Westeros might come to believe (correctly, I think) that Jon is the child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.  (I also believe the popular theory that Meera Reed is Jon's twin sister).
 
(It's possible this information might come out before he is killed the second time; that could provide motive, or possibly reason to frame a motive.)
 
This makes Jon a Targaryen and a serious contender to be the Prince who was Promised, if there is such a thingThat would mean Jon likely has something to do with Lightbringer, if there is such a thing.  Lightbringer is called the "Red Sword of Heroes".  This could be viewed as Jon's third attempt to forge a way to protect the "realms of men".

I don't buy into the Jon-Meera theory but that doesn't negate your theory for me. 

While reading Daenerys's 'death' in Drogo's funeral pyre came to mind. It's how she "became" a dragon. Maybe something similar will happen to Jon? 

Speaking of Dany, her & Jon have many parallels so if this fits for Jon it may fit for her as well. 

Definitely interesting things to think about! 

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Thank you very much for the warm welcome, I appreciate it!

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't buy much into people starting to think his parents are Ned & Ashara but people already do think it so I don't think that changes much. 

What, to you, is the significance of what others believe to be Jon's parentage in regards to the black, white, red sword scenario? 

Regarding the parentage: I was trying to think of what purpose of the Ashara+Ned rumors serve.  The only thing I could think of was that if Jon and others came to believe that he was a Dayne, then he could become the Sword of the Morning.  I don't have any evidence for this, it just literally is the only reason I can think of for why the Ashara+Ned rumor would be in the story at all.  And since the previous Sword of the Morning was a white sword (and a Lord Commander), I thought it could make sense that Jon could also then be a white sword (and a Lord Commander for a second time), which led me to the "black sword, white sword, red sword" idea.  So I don't know if the parentage would be significant to the plot in any way, but it seemed to me that the timing of each "stage" of Jon's story could correspond with the timing of his changing beliefs about his parentage: Jon thinks that he is a "nobody" so he becomes a "black sword"; then he thinks that he is a Dayne so he becomes a "white sword"; then it turns out that he is really a Targaryen and he becomes (or helps create) a "red sword".

(For what it's worth, I do also believe the popular theory that Ashara is Jyana, living with Howland Reed.  This might be another sign that I too easily believe many of the popular theories.  But it seems to make sense to me!)

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I can't see Jon becoming LC of any Kings/Queensguard for the Lannisters unless he is trying to infiltrate the ranks for some reason. But he could become LC of Daenerys QG. I think attempting to get the people of the North to get along with Dany & Co would fit here as well. 

I agree that Jon as Lord Commander of Queens/Kingsguard for the Lannisters seems unlikely, I suggested it simply to fit with the Mithraism rank of "lion", which might be a stretch.  Yes, I think you are right that Jon in the Queensguard for Daenerys seems to make more sense.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I think it would be a cheap trick & very Un-George like to have Jon die off & return again but possibly some sort of symbolic death? Like the 'Kill the boy' death he goes through? 

Yes, agreed, having Jon die and come back again doesn't seem right.  I could see either: 1) a symbolic death/rebirth, like you suggest; or 2) a literal death after which he doesn't return (such as if he dies in a fire and cannot come back, though maybe he leaves behind a child or something which becomes the "red sword").  Though I like the idea about the Drogo funeral pyre that you mentioned further down.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Do you think the actual sword he wields comes into play at all in this? 

I have no thoughts about the significance of the actual sword Jon might wield.  In this framework, he wields Longclaw during the "black sword" stage, and If he is Sword of the Morning for a time during a "white sword" stage, then he wield would wield Dawn.  I have no idea what to make of that, that is a good point that I will think about, thanks!  The only thought I had about Dawn is that it could be a red herring, that people like Melisandre might think "oh Jon Snow came back from the dead, and that is a very special sword, so that must be Lightbringer".  But that doesn't really say anything about the "black sword, white sword, red sword" idea.

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

While reading Daenerys's 'death' in Drogo's funeral pyre came to mind. It's how she "became" a dragon. Maybe something similar will happen to Jon? 

 Speaking of Dany, her & Jon have many parallels so if this fits for Jon it may fit for her as well. 

This is an excellent point, thank you!  I have long believed that Jon would "perish" twice, once in ice and once in fire, even if they weren't literal deaths.  It seems to me that if Jon is a "corn king", then it could make sense if he "perished twice" so that the world doesn't have to "perish twice".  Perhaps he won't truly die in a fire, but it will be something similar to what happened with Daenerys.  Presumably we will be told more about why Daenerys survived that fire.  And perhaps the "fires to light" "one to love" would fit into this.  Thank you for bringing that up, it would make a lot of sense for something similar to happen with Jon.

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I thought about your point about the specific swords and can't think of anything else about them, other than of course the fact that Longclaw is valyrian steel and looks dark grey/black, and Dawn looks white, so those match the pattern.  Perhaps the Longclaw name is also a nod to the readers to direwolves, even though it wasn't named for direwolves.

Of course there is also the night/day stuff with Starks and Daynes, but I'm not sure how that would tie in to the black/white/red stuff.

I'm also leaning toward the view of Jon impregnating Daenerys and then dying and being "re-born" as a dragon in some way (I suspect something like your note about the funeral pyre).  I originally thought it might be a new red dragon, but Drogo's colors of black with red eyes fit nicely with Ghost's colors of white with red eyes, so it also seems like a good chance that it involves a connection to Drogo, as was brought up in the thread I linked to in the original post:

That would give Jon "three heads": father (human), son (dragon), and holy Ghost (direwolf).  This thread talks about the idea of the three-headed dragon being Jon, which fits well with other stuff in the universe like the god Trios: 

 

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Welcome! 

On 8/12/2019 at 6:03 PM, BootsWhiskersPounce said:
{snip}
 
I think Jon Snow's story can be broken into three stages: Black Sword, White Sword, and Red Sword.
 
I'm not sure this is a "theory" and I don't have a lot of evidence, but it seems to me to make sense.  It could be a nice little pattern to Jon's story.  This may or may not be an allusion to the (A) Magnum Opus in alchemy, which sometimes was said to have four stages but sometimes was said to have three: nigredo (black), albedo (white), and rubedo (red).
 
{snip}
 
STAGE 1
(B) Black Sword:
 
{snip for length}
 
STAGE 2
White Sword:
 
I think Jon will leave the Night's Watch.  He might for a time become a soldier or something similar.  But more important is that, since he will be viewed as a member of the (C) Dayne family, I think Jon will become the "Sword of the Morning".
 
The previous "Sword of the Morning", Arthur Dayne, was also the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and I think Jon will do the same.
 
STAGE 3
Red Sword:
 
{snip}
 
I believe the popular theory that Lightbringer is not literally a sword, but is actually a dragon/person. (D) It could be a three-headed red dragon like the one on the Targaryens' seal.  (Thus the whole "the dragon has three heads" thing could be literal, which would be kind of ironic considering how characters don't seem to be taking it literally, while other prophecies seem to not be meant to be taken literally or might have translation errors.)
 
 
{snip}
 
Thank you for taking the time to read.  I'm sorry again if this has been covered before or if I'm posting it in the wrong place.  I would love to hear any thoughts.

A.) I feel the color sequence matches really well. Could it not be his personal identity? That's the thought that I can't shake when I read this thread. 

B.) In "Black sword" he's a member of the NW and learns to work with his brothers. Jon gains experience and learns to become a leader. After Qhorin I would say there is an intermittent "Grey" phase. I don't know what color his sheepskin cloak is but, this grey phase begins when he fake defects.

C.) Dawn is white. It's also in Dorne, and even if people thinking he's a Dayne bastard  I doubt he would even be allowed to touch the hilt. At the least he's in line behind Ned Dayne and DarkStar. I personally think his "White Sword" phase begins when he (in order of importance) becomes LC, finds Ghost, and chooses to remain a Snow.

D.) This blew my mind. I thought Azor Azai might be multiple people. PtwP and Last Hero as well. It never occurred to me that Lightbringer could be. So we need a water person, a lion person, and a...sacrifice.

On 8/12/2019 at 7:07 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

{snip}

(E) symbolic death? Like the 'Kill the boy' death he goes through? 

{snip}

 

E.) This has to be the "Red Sword" part, matching with his identity theme he'll continue being a "White Sword" or a "Snow", a little after he dies. Eventually I feel him heading towards a difficult identity choice Snow or Targaryen? Probably awakening (becoming) a dragon (Targ) from stone (Winterfell crypts) in the process. Given the nature of Fire and Blood and all things red, the choice will be emotional, fiery and hopefully violent.

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Impressive entrance on the fora! Really like what you laid out with the Black-White-Red. It immediately triggered a sequence of choices for me reading this thread. 

The black choice is the choice for the Watch. It is his desertion and return, his leading the Watch against the wildlings etc, the White is already showing occasionally, but this is the period of his live governed by a vow to the Black

The White is the choice to remain a Snow instead of a Stark and his speculated period in the Ghost (White). Upon his return he chooses to break his vows (abandoning the Black) and meddle in the affairs of the realm for the good of mankind. This is the period of Snow, Ghosts and Winter. Perhaps he would become the King or Winter (not saying he conquers the entire North, but who knows). The winds of winter being about the Ice Cold Others and the White wintery Snow rising to oppose it fits quite nicely  

The Red is the time of the Dragon and Fire. Jon awakes as a dragon somehow, either by marriage to Dany, by proclamation of R+L=J or (spur of the moment idea) by a kind of pyre of cold/winter/Others which he burns out of to mirror Dany. Perhaps in a direct confrontation with the Others at the Wall his true Fire emerges. 

These themes are difficult to match with others like Bran and Dany who both also appear to ‘fight for the Light’. Perhaps he is the bridge between the Black Bran and the Red Dany, since he is the Trinity or Black White Red. 

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