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Tywin Manderly

Appropriate Punishment for Catelyn

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16 minutes ago, Tywin Manderly said:

What would have been an appropriate punishment for Catelyn for setting Jaime Lannister free without Robb's leave?

She was worried that Robb would be under pressure from his lords to execute her.  Given that there was no such pressure, there was no reason to punish her. 

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If it had been anyone other than Cat, what would Robb have done? Execution probably. Certainly imprisonment, and not in a comfy tower room. Maybe an option to take the black for someone who had served loyally up til then.

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2 minutes ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Death. Beheading most like. But that would of made him a kinslayer - cursed in the eyes of gods and men. 

It would also have caused his lords to believe that their king was a lunatic.

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Just now, SeanF said:

It would also have caused his lords to believe that their king was a lunatic.

Possibly. The Karstarks paid with a head. And they too are kin to the Starks. 

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1 hour ago, TheThreeEyedCow said:

Possibly. The Karstarks paid with a head. And they too are kin to the Starks. 

Karstark was guilty of murdering prisoners, to whom his king had given protection, however, and is only a very distant relative.

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3 hours ago, Tywin Manderly said:

What would have been an appropriate punishment for Catelyn for setting Jaime Lannister free without Robb's leave?

Give her to Rickard :D

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Posted (edited)

Robb was already an adult, and he got married, so his wife became the Lady of Winterfell. Arya is gone, Sansa is married, Bran and Rickon are supposedly dead, Cat's husband is dead; she's not a Northerner, and she didn't even took their faith, didn't worshiped Old Gods. So, there was no more place for her back at Winterfell, and no purpose or reason for her to return there. And she had commited a serious crime against Starks, by letting Jaime free.

So, if I was Robb, I would have at least made her stay at Riverrun permanently, in exile. And for her not to be able to contest Edmure, as a possible Tully-heir, would have made her either to join Silent Sisters, or to become a septa. That way she would have remained unmarried, and with no rights to either Rivverun and Winterfell, and will be separated from Robb, and won't get her nose into his business, won't spoil his relationship with his wife and future kids.

Edited by Megorova

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Tywin Manderly said:

What would have been an appropriate punishment for Catelyn for setting Jaime Lannister free without Robb's leave?

You have identified one of the important choices for a leader.  Catelyn is guilty of treason.  How Robb can kill Karstark and let mom get off lightly is proof of poor ruling.  This theme is repeated again at the wall when Jon Snow kills Slynt and later lets a worse criminal off the blocks.  The Starks are poor at handling situations when it gets personal.  Robb and Jon stink  as leaders.

Edited by Widowmaker 811

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Sending her to the silent sisters or having her take a septas vows would have been fair punishment. Killing her would have been foolish because kin-slaying is a massive taboo and you can't have your men think your accursed. Also take her sex into account.

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1 hour ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

You have identified one of the important choices for a leader.  Catelyn is guilty of treason.  How Robb can kill Karstark and let mom get off lightly is proof of poor ruling.  This theme is repeated again at the wall when Jon Snow kills Slynt and later lets a worse criminal off the blocks.  The Starks are poor at handling situations when it gets personal.  Robb and Jon stink  as leaders.

And, a King may forgive treason.

Karstark's offence was far more serious.

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17 minutes ago, SeanF said:

And, a King may forgive treason.

Karstark's offence was far more serious.

Robb was not a king.  Executing one and letting one get away is not justice.  It was poor leadership.

 

 

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Killing defenceless boys in their cells is a far worse crime than setting an enemy free to save some defenceless girls, by any standards, and all but the Karstarks seem to feel that way. Cats punishment was to watch her son die, was to watch his cause get shattered, and was to be killed herself when she saw everything in ruins. Things would likely have panned out that way anyway, but she is not to know that.

 

Still, some time exiled in a tower cell wouldn’t have hurt considering his men believe she may have helped doom them all

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32 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Robb was not a king.  Executing one and letting one get away is not justice.  It was poor leadership.

 

 

Robb had been proclaimed King of the Riverlands and the North.

And, murdering prisoners is a very different thing to letting a prisoner go free.

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42 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Robb was not a king.  Executing one and letting one get away is not justice.  It was poor leadership.

 

 

Rob was a proclaimed king, and it was being taken serious. Kartark's was a Les Mageste that was murder, and murder of loyal subjects was also done to do it.

Everyone (specifically his kin, who later to third parties characterized it as Rikkard getting killing mad) knew what Karstark had done. The stumbling block was the loss of the Karstark men for doing the subsequent fairly obvious, conventional, and just thing. The shock is that Rob went through with it. Karstark was betting his life that it was politically inconvenient enough for him to be over-mighty and perform a significant enormity to his sovereign at will (and it was damned inconvenient). It was damned inconvenient not to as well. Nobody cared (very much, aside from the Freys, a little) that noble Lannister prisoners got killed; it was that kind of war. Karstark was being a murderous insubordinate rebellious shite that equated his obligations to his king as the same- he meant to freely get away with it and voiced that.

Putting the two in the same context rises to sophistry requiring the further help of disingenuousness.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Tywin Manderly said:

What would have been an appropriate punishment for Catelyn for setting Jaime Lannister free without Robb's leave?

 

 

4 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

You have identified one of the important choices for a leader.  Catelyn is guilty of treason.  How Robb can kill Karstark and let mom get off lightly is proof of poor ruling.  This theme is repeated again at the wall when Jon Snow kills Slynt and later lets a worse criminal off the blocks.  The Starks are poor at handling situations when it gets personal.  Robb and Jon stink  as leaders.

Rickard and Catelyn should be forgiven but the insult to justice happened when Robb Stark executed Rickard Karstark.  That was a precedent that got set.  Robb broke that and proved himself erratic. Robb was shitty when it comes to delivering justice.  I level the same criticism to Jon longface.  

Edited by Wolf's Bane

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2 minutes ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Rickard and Catelyn should be forgiven but the deal was sealed when Robb Stark executed Rickard Karstark.  That was a precedent that got set.  Robb broke that and proved himself erratic.  Go easy on Catelyn if he had gone easy on Rickard.  Go hard on Catelyn if he had gone hard on Karstark.  Robb was shitty when it comes to delivering justice.  I level the same criticism to Jon longface

Preposterous argument. Had Karstark released two prisoners, then yeah, one could make the case for “same crime same punishment”. But what Karstark did was infinitely worse than what Catelyn did. 

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Posted (edited)
Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Preposterous argument. Had Karstark released two prisoners, then yeah, one could make the case for “same crime same punishment”. But what Karstark did was infinitely worse than what Catelyn did. 

It's not a question of subjective morality.  It's complete bullcrap to claim Rickard Karstark was more serious.  It's a question of how much damage it did to their cause.  Catelyn released Jaime Kingslayer.  Rickard killed two POWs.  Catelyn did more harm.  The two squires are nothing and of low strategic value.  

Edited by Wolf's Bane

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4 hours ago, flayedmanssecret said:

Sending her to the silent sisters or having her take a septas vows would have been fair punishment. Killing her would have been foolish because kin-slaying is a massive taboo and you can't have your men think your accursed. Also take her sex into account.

Forgive them both or punish them both.  You can't act with bias when justice is involved.  Robb acted with bias.  Force Catelyn to join the septas and force Rickard to the Wall.

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