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Do you like Feast and Dance?

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3 hours ago, Impbread said:

This. She is spending time alone with her dragon. The nature of which is beginning to rub off on her. Dragons plant no trees.

But they do build cathedrals (Sept of Baelor), prosperous cities (King's Landing), infrastructure (Kingsroad), liberate slaves (Meereen), and nations (The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros).  It is obvious that Dragons, Targaryens, and Daenerys Targaryen specifically, bring goodness and light to their world.  

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21 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

But they do build cathedrals (Sept of Baelor), prosperous cities (King's Landing), infrastructure (Kingsroad), liberate slaves (Meereen), and nations (The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros).  It is obvious that Dragons, Targaryens, and Daenerys Targaryen specifically, bring goodness and light to their world.  

You are correct but what is your point?  I just think that Dany is changing and this is the beginning of said change. Do you think that she will remain good? Is that what you are saying?

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18 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

The one-off POV of Arys is completely unnecessary. That chapter could have easily been narrated by Arianne. The fact that it isn't sort of defies logic as Arianne is there the whole entire time. There's not a part of Arys' POV that Arianne isn't privy towards.

The prologue POVs are cool. But what other one-off POVs are you talking about? Melisandre? Areo? They are no one-off, they're being positioned to be the main POV at the Wall and in Dorne now that Jon is dead and Arianne is leaving.

Melisandre, Areo, Arys, the prologue (and epilogue)-POVs, Barristan kinda (admittedly four chapters not just one, but its the same principle.) Quentyn kinda (four chapters), JonCon kinda (2 chapters), Aeron kinda (2 chapters), Asha kinda (4 chapters), Victarion kinda (4 chapters).

As I already stated I don't have that much of a problem with any of them anymore since the time I realized they really are vehicles for exposition (quite cool exposition some of them) and I just read them for their information value. Many of them tell us important things. Also I agree that the prologue- and epilogue POVs give quite interesting info.

That said I still think Martin should have skipped over some of that exposition in favour of cutting down on the number of secondary and tertiary viewpoints and to streamline the story and make the whole thing easier to write.

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1 hour ago, Impbread said:

You are correct but what is your point?  I just think that Dany is changing and this is the beginning of said change. Do you think that she will remain good? Is that what you are saying?

I believe his point is that Dany is missunderstanding her heritage.  Everyone tells her that her heritage is fire and blood.  That dragons are only good for destruction and violence.  Which if she knew her true history she'd know was not what Aegon I brought.  Aegon brought an END to war in Westeros (although his heirs failed to maintain it).  The Dragons brought peace and prosperity.  

Dany is learning all the wrong lessons from her life, which, like you say, is changing her for the worse.  I agree that she's going down a dark path, and that's what we're seeing.  With more experience she could have used her dragons for good like she wants, but because her previous attempts have so far failed, I think she's going to go with the only tools she think actually works, violence and destruction.  Especially when she gets back to Mereen and sees what a mess things have become.

And that doesn't even consider she's likely to get to Westeros after going through hell and find out fAegon beat her to the punch with a successful Targ restoration.  Then she'll really go crazy.

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On 9/20/2019 at 11:44 AM, argonak said:

I believe his point is that Dany is missunderstanding her heritage.  Everyone tells her that her heritage is fire and blood.  That dragons are only good for destruction and violence.  Which if she knew her true history she'd know was not what Aegon I brought.  Aegon brought an END to war in Westeros (although his heirs failed to maintain it).  The Dragons brought peace and prosperity.  

Dany is learning all the wrong lessons from her life, which, like you say, is changing her for the worse.  I agree that she's going down a dark path, and that's what we're seeing.  With more experience she could have used her dragons for good like she wants, but because her previous attempts have so far failed, I think she's going to go with the only tools she think actually works, violence and destruction.  Especially when she gets back to Mereen and sees what a mess things have become.

And that doesn't even consider she's likely to get to Westeros after going through hell and find out fAegon beat her to the punch with a successful Targ restoration.  Then she'll really go crazy.

I don't think so.  Daenerys Targaryen is the hero of the story.  The war in Westeros that was started by the Starks and the Lannisters has not abated.  Stannis is still at-large.  Jon Snow threw the Night's Watch into chaos.  Manderly is plotting something vile.  She will ride her dragons to Westeros and rebuild the kingdoms into one unified land.  

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1 hour ago, The Anti-Stark said:

I don't think so.  Daenerys Targaryen is the hero of the story.  The war in Westeros that was started by the Starks and the Lannisters has not abated.  Stannis is still at-large.  Jon Snow threw the Night's Watch into chaos.  Manderly is plotting something vile.  She will ride her dragons to Westeros and rebuild the kingdoms into one unified land.  

You do know that GRRM has said there is no one hero, right? That was a major hurdle years ago when producers wanted to bring ASOAIF to any screen, that they wanted to change the story and make the focus on just one or two “heroes”.  

Martin doesn’t work that way. Sorry. 

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I love Feast and Dance. Feast most of all.

I'm an outlier, I'm aware... 

When I first started reading the novels, I was after an easy, entretaining read to distract myself. I had been a voraceous reader since childhood and all througout my teenage and young adult years, but with all the work I had to do for university and after having my son I had little time or energy for literature, and I found myself missing it. My son was about to turn two and I hadn't touched a novel in years.

I went for A Song of Ice and Fire because I had watched the HBO show and liked it well enough, the first book was there easily reachble on my bookcase, and I figured it would remind me of the fantasy I had read as a kid, stuff like Harry Potter and His Dark Materials. And it did. I liked A Game of Thrones and proceeded to borrow Clash from a friend. As a teen I had abandoned fantasy in favour of other genres, and I found I really liked it. It was fun and easy to read and... and... and... and then I got to Storm and realised just really how good it really was.

It wasn't the plot that had me fall in love with ASOIAF, it was the characters. Literature is art and Martin is an amazing artist.  The beautiful, entrancing way he weaves words sentance after santence to create the distinct voice of each POV, the inner world of each character, that is what made me love and not only like ASOIAF. When I got to Feast...

I loved reading Aerys and Brienne and Asha. The Soiled Knight is fascinating to me, I don't get how anyone could ever find it superflous to have the experience to read such a chapter... The exploration of the white knight conscience within the complex world the author build, that in itself is valuable to me.

It's art for fucks sake, good art is the opposite of utilitarian. I don't want chapters to "advance the plot", I want chapters that make me feel, chapters that move me and make me live in a reality other that my own with an intensity only a good writer can accomplish. Martin does it, and in my personal experience he does it better in the later books. I'm invested in this world he has created, really, and I love to explore it. That's what's brought me here.

Edited by Lady Dacey

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On 9/20/2019 at 10:57 AM, Amris said:

Melisandre, Areo, Arys, the prologue (and epilogue)-POVs, Barristan kinda (admittedly four chapters not just one, but its the same principle.) Quentyn kinda (four chapters), JonCon kinda (2 chapters), Aeron kinda (2 chapters), Asha kinda (4 chapters), Victarion kinda (4 chapters).

As I already stated I don't have that much of a problem with any of them anymore since the time I realized they really are vehicles for exposition (quite cool exposition some of them) and I just read them for their information value. Many of them tell us important things. Also I agree that the prologue- and epilogue POVs give quite interesting info.

That said I still think Martin should have skipped over some of that exposition in favour of cutting down on the number of secondary and tertiary viewpoints and to streamline the story and make the whole thing easier to write.

You've invalidated your own argument.

JonCon, Quentyn, Asha, Aeron, Barristan and Victarion are not one-off POVs. And the prologue and epilogue POVs are just that...prologues and epilogues.

All of which give interesting info about the world and propel the plot forward. I don't see how Martin could have skipped over the Iron Islands material; all of it has proven itself to be very important connective tissue. The Ironborn are actually the ones who are connecting the plot lines of the Lannister-Tyrell politics, the Targaryens, the Starks and the Others together. And the whole Aegon plotline has been in the works since A Game of Thrones.

On 9/20/2019 at 11:44 AM, argonak said:

I believe his point is that Dany is missunderstanding her heritage.  Everyone tells her that her heritage is fire and blood.  That dragons are only good for destruction and violence.  Which if she knew her true history she'd know was not what Aegon I brought.  Aegon brought an END to war in Westeros (although his heirs failed to maintain it).  The Dragons brought peace and prosperity.  

Dany is learning all the wrong lessons from her life, which, like you say, is changing her for the worse.  I agree that she's going down a dark path, and that's what we're seeing.  With more experience she could have used her dragons for good like she wants, but because her previous attempts have so far failed, I think she's going to go with the only tools she think actually works, violence and destruction.  Especially when she gets back to Mereen and sees what a mess things have become.

And that doesn't even consider she's likely to get to Westeros after going through hell and find out fAegon beat her to the punch with a successful Targ restoration.  Then she'll really go crazy.

You forget that the peace and prosperity brought by Aegon and his sisters was a peace and prosperity enforced by fire and blood. The very throne Aegon fashioned for himself is forged from the swords of Aegon's enemies and melded together by dragonfire.

I also don't believe that Daenerys is going to crazy. People might believe her crazy but what people believe isn't necessarily true or right. Case in point: Joffrey being the trueborn son and heir of Robert Baratheon.

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1 hour ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

You forget that the peace and prosperity brought by Aegon and his sisters was a peace and prosperity enforced by fire and blood. The very throne Aegon fashioned for himself is forged from the swords of Aegon's enemies and melded together by dragonfire.

I also don't believe that Daenerys is going to crazy. People might believe her crazy but what people believe isn't necessarily true or right. Case in point: Joffrey being the trueborn son and heir of Robert Baratheon.

Peace is peace.  The small folk want peace and Aegon brought it.  In my mind that makes him a successful king.  The fact that he had to beat the crud out of the Lords to stop them playing their game of thrones isn't a big deal to me.  They're a tiny minority of the population who causes the majority of misery and suffering, instead of providing justice and good leadership like they're supposed to.  In my book, putting a stop to all their infighting makes Aegon a heroic figure regardless of how he may have had to enforce it.   Conquest and justice are painful, but the end result can still be good.  

Well we'll have to see what Dany does, if GRRM ever finishes.  No way to really know until then.

Edited by argonak

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On 9/23/2019 at 9:15 AM, Lady Dacey said:

The Soiled Knight is fascinating to me, I don't get how anyone could ever find it superflous to have the experience to read such a chapter... The exploration of the white knight conscience within the complex world the author build, that in itself is valuable to me.

I thought that chapter complemented Jaime and Barristan's thoughts really well. I find it's a chapter that gets better every re-read. 

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44 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

I thought that chapter complemented Jaime and Barristan's thoughts really well.

Precisely! It's a new set of eyes looking on the same landscape, a new heart and its conflicts about similar situations. Aerys acts as a foil for Jon Snow as well. 

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Not only do I like Feast and Dance, but I also like it better that Clash and Storm. And that's says a lot, because I love Clash and Storm :D

Game is my favorite one.

Don't get me wrong I love the exciting plots in Clash and Storm, but it was also so much to take in on every page, it was just an emotional roller coaster and at times just a bit to much for me lol

In Feast and Dance there is still a lot of information to take in on every page, but there is not constantly something happening, something happening.

I loved the world building in Feast and Dance. It just feels like the clam before the Storm- and I loved it lol

Brienne's chapters are my second favorite all together. She is my second favorite female and Pod my favorite male character, so I can't get enough of the two of them. Loved we go to know her character better, love the themes in her chapters. that's one of the main reasons, why I love ASOIAF the deep and meaningfully themes, in which lays a lot of truth, but still never forces a moral message upon you. The broken men speech is one of the most beautiful one in the books, finally we see more how the commoners are effected by the consequences of war (I still want a broken women speech though :) )

I fell in love with Jon in Dance, IMO he was such a terrific leader, I think Sansa's chapters are great and scary in feast, love seeing her growing up, I love Sam and Gilly, I like Cersei's chapters, even though kinda disappointing, that she is really that unintelligent, I don't think without Jaime and Tywin and Kevan she'll be a threat for that much longer, could list more but I love it all -I'm a fan of what is known in the fandom of slow chapters anyway-except could have done without Reek and Ramsey.

Edited by Nagini's Neville

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Overall I really enjoyed parts of Feast and Dance, and I enjoyed Dance more than Feast. I actually really liked Brianne's chapters in Feast because we got more of an "on the ground" or "little people" perspective on the war. It had a lot of nice world building. Cersei's chapters were very entertaining as well. For Dance I think everything in the North really shines as one of the best parts of the overall story. Theon's struggle is very compelling and the building conflict between Stannis and the Boltons is very intense. The ending epilogue chapter was fantastic as well. 

That said, both books definitely left me a bit disappointed and frustrated over all. The way A Storm of the Swords ended the narrative felt like it had built up a lot of momentum and I was eager to see the story shift into its final act and build towards a satisfying conclusion. So when the story pivots to slow politicking in Dorne and Mereen I was disheartened. I think that GRRM made a serious mistake in his story by choosing this point to further expand the story and draw it out rather than move directly into the final act. The story was big enough already as it was with so many characters I was invested in and then to double or triple the number of characters and storylines just made me feel exhausted. GRRM should have taken his ideas for Dorne and Mereen and saved those for another story. 

Frankly, at this point I think the story would be fine and certainly more concise if Danaerys was just cut from it entirely.

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Surprisingly there were big chunks of dance I found myself so bored reading and struggled to not just skim those chapters. It weren't many. In fact it was only really the Young Griff and Tyrion scenes, and the Quentin ones. Although once they got closer to their destinations I enjoyed them much more. 

I was expecting Feast to be less enjoyable but I was never bored.

However in about a week I'm doing the A Feast With Dragons read as it's been 4 to 5 years since I first read them so it should make the reading different. 

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Feast is my fav book.

Cersei steals the book  for me, the woman is hilarious. Sansa is my fav character and i liked Brienne story very much. 

Dance however... Well, i didn't really liked the wall plot and Tyrion was very hard to read for me. 

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Posted (edited)

I do like them as much as game of thrones and clash of kings books. I  consider Storm of swords to be pinnacle of ASOIAF and way better than all those 4 books .

Feast and Dance are a bit special for me . I bought books before season 5 of GOT series, but I laready watched previous 4 seasons many times, so I was very familiar with events in first 3 books , which wasn´t the case with those 2.

Also majority of content in first 3 books is shown on TV show. Its the complete opposite with those  2 majority of book content is not shown in TV series. Just think about all those characters that appear in those 2 that never find their way into show.

Feast and Dance did show us much world building, new characters and locations , while on the other side not much did happen which is their only flaw.

Edited by Putin

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Feast and Dance don't seem to hang together on their own as well as the first three, and I really wish that just about everyone's story did not end on a cliffhanger (especially with 9 years to hang on...), but, that said, a lot of my favorite chapters come from those books.

Davos, Brienne, Arya, Theon, and Sansa all have amazing chapters filled with so much incredible backstory, worldbuilding, and laying groundwork for connecting the storylines to each other. Jaime, Dany, Jon, Sam, and Asha as well. And Melisandre, JonCon, and Barristan. Even Cersei, though she is so toxic, I don't like being in her head.

I know a lot of folks find the food and travelogue stuff as dull as paint, but I love it. I think GRRM has a real knack for making the ordinary fascinating. It's the gory details in his sex scenes I can do without. :)

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On 3/10/2020 at 6:24 PM, Therae said:

Feast and Dance don't seem to hang together on their own as well as the first three, and I really wish that just about everyone's story did not end on a cliffhanger (especially with 9 years to hang on...), but, that said, a lot of my favorite chapters come from those books.

Davos, Brienne, Arya, Theon, and Sansa all have amazing chapters filled with so much incredible backstory, worldbuilding, and laying groundwork for connecting the storylines to each other. Jaime, Dany, Jon, Sam, and Asha as well. And Melisandre, JonCon, and Barristan. Even Cersei, though she is so toxic, I don't like being in her head.

I know a lot of folks find the food and travelogue stuff as dull as paint, but I love it. I think GRRM has a real knack for making the ordinary fascinating. It's the gory details in his sex scenes I can do without. :)

Interesting you say that.

I can only recall reading one sex scene in the books and that is Jaime and Cersei in A Storm of Swords...

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On 9/20/2019 at 9:20 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

But they do build cathedrals (Sept of Baelor), prosperous cities (King's Landing), infrastructure (Kingsroad), liberate slaves (Meereen), and nations (The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros).  It is obvious that Dragons, Targaryens, and Daenerys Targaryen specifically, bring goodness and light to their world.  

Very true.

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