I guess the Starks will just die out?

[Angel Eyes]

So Jon is sworn to the Night’s Watch, Bran can’t have kids, and neither Sansa nor Arya are interested (Sansa being confirmed via interviews). Does this mean the Starks will just die out? 

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Yes, a story about dynastic lineages ends with no marriages, no children, no inkling of a stable future for Westeros

[Angel Eyes]

12 hours ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Yes, a story about dynastic lineages ends with no marriages, no children, no inkling of a stable future for Westeros

Is that ironic, bad poetry?

But as the matter stands, yes. The Starks haven’t had cousins in their line for at least two generations; Rickard Stark was an only child, he married his cousin Lyarra (did Varys not read a Stark family tree and think that Jon would not be fine with marrying Daenerys, because the Starks have had incestuous marriages before?), her sister married into House Rogers in the Stormlands but nobody has shown up from that house, Benjen was sworn to the Night’s Watch, Lyanna had Jon and his line is also cut because he joined the Night’s Watch, and Brandon... well, he might have bastards somewhere but we haven’t met them.

[Mystical]

On 8/15/2019 at 3:27 AM, Angel Eyes said:

So Jon is sworn to the Night’s Watch, Bran can’t have kids, and neither Sansa nor Arya are interested (Sansa being confirmed via interviews). Does this mean the Starks will just die out? 

Sansa brought up succession for a reason, so it's clearly something she is concerned about. The North is it's own Kingdom and she is Queen, she can make whatever rules she wants. And that includes not adopting the new system of the 6 Kingdoms (which is nonsense anyway because as soon as Bran dies, there will be war for the throne). She doesn't even have to marry to have an heir.

What is said in interviews has no place in a discussion about the canon of the show.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

I think Sophie's comments are supported by the canon of the show though. Her coronation with her long freeflowing hair...

https://www.historytoday.com/sites/default/files/liz1_coronation.jpg

She never married and never had a child.

Book Wise, the last marriage out of House Stark to produce children was Jocelyn, the heirs in the Vale Cat mentions when Robb is writing his will.

[Rose of Red Lake]

The character who most wanted to be part of that domestic life never finds it? Even in its more realistic, less idealized form like her parents? Even worse is the idea of a "virgin queen" like Elizabeth - It's ridiculous. Sansa never having consensual sex but Arya and Brienne do? WTF is that?? Meanwhile the two queens who are sexually active, die as the villains? This is eyebrow raising if this is where GRRM is going.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

21 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The character who most wanted to be part of that domestic life never finds it? Even in its more realistic, less idealized form like her parents? Even worse is the idea of a "virgin queen" like Elizabeth - It's ridiculous. Sansa never having consensual sex but Arya and Brienne do? WTF is that?? Meanwhile the two queens who are sexually active, die as the villains? This is eyebrow raising if this is where GRRM is going.

Elizabeth didn't die a virgin she just appeared so to her people. She married her country. In those days if she married then her husband would be King, a King outranks a Queen. She would lose her power. As for Sansa not getting what she wants, she did, 'I'd be queen someday, its the only thing I've ever wanted', she had to endure the sacrifices to get what she wanted. Some things, she will never have.

[BlackLightning]

Well, the books have implied it several times that is exactly what ends up happening.

The Starks will be the last of the great houses and they will likely save Westeros and get it through the Long Night. But, they too will perish.

I think Rick

21 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

The character who most wanted to be part of that domestic life never finds it? Even in its more realistic, less idealized form like her parents? Even worse is the idea of a "virgin queen" like Elizabeth - It's ridiculous. Sansa never having consensual sex but Arya and Brienne do? WTF is that?? Meanwhile the two queens who are sexually active, die as the villains? This is eyebrow raising if this is where GRRM is going.

This is one of the many problems that D&D presented.

The two queens who are sexually active are labeled not only as villains but as insane loose cannons?

The last three episodes of Game of Thrones have some very problematic, misogynistic overtones. I can't really understand how you can really like it...

[Rose of Red Lake]

12 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Elizabeth didn't die a virgin she just appeared so to her people. She married her country. In those days if she married then her husband would be King, a King outranks a Queen. She would lose her power. As for Sansa not getting what she wants, she did, 'I'd be queen someday, its the only thing I've ever wanted', she had to endure the sacrifices to get what she wanted. Some things, she will never have.

That's my issue, she never had one relationship in canon that was real. It was all fakery or creeps. This is unrealistic if other people, including her brothers and sisters, find love themselves. 

In the books she didn't want to be the queen like that. She wanted to be a "lady in a song," whether that be a princess or a lady's knight. 

Sansa in the show wants autonomy, that shouldnt come at the price of finding companionship, or even the opportunity to find it. She says this herself. "Everyone wants to be loved."

[BlackLightning]

13 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Elizabeth didn't die a virgin she just appeared so to her people. She married her country. In those days if she married then her husband would be King, a King outranks a Queen. She would lose her power. As for Sansa not getting what she wants, she did, 'I'd be queen someday, its the only thing I've ever wanted', she had to endure the sacrifices to get what she wanted. Some things, she will never have.

Well that's where real life and the series differs.

The series makes it clear that a queen or a lady who rules in her own right can be secure in her rule. It's more difficult for women than for men but it's much more common in the series than in real life 16th century England. So there's no excuse: Sansa's husband will be her consort (kingly, knightly or lordly) and he will not have power over her. She's too much of a force with powerful allies.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

That's my issue, she never had one relationship in canon that was real. It was all fakery or creeps. This is unrealistic if other people, including her brothers and sisters, find love themselves. 

In the books she didn't want to be the queen like that. She wanted to be a "lady in a song," whether that be a princess or a lady's knight. 

Sansa in the show wants autonomy, that shouldnt come at the price of finding companionship, or even the opportunity to find it. 

She doesn't need it though. That is a good contrast between her and Danaerys. Both began saying that they wanted the love of the people as Queen. In the end Sansa doesn't need love. One of her brother's died for it, one was destroyed by it, her sister seems to have broken someone with it. Daenerys on the other hand can't cope without being loved. It gives her validation. When she doesn't have it, we saw what happened.  Summed up by this quite aptly

Quote

In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!

 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Just now, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

She doesn't need it though. That is a good contrast between her and Danaerys. Both began saying that they wanted the love of the people as Queen. In the end Sansa doesn't need love. One of her brother's died for it, one was destroyed by it, her sister seems to have broken someone with it. Daenerys on the other hand can't cope without being loved. It gives her validation. When she doesn't have it, we saw what happened.  Summed up by this quite aptly

I think you have the contrasts confused. Cersei is the one who thought love was a poison and Sansa insists that everyone wants this basic thing. Because she's right. It's a basic human desire. It doesn't have to be an obsession or a fairy tale, because her parents find it. The author himself is also in a long, committed relationship so I find it hypocritical. The character who loves romance...never finds it. Not even a whiff. Meanwhile the author calls himself a romantic.

Anything else for Sansa is just fanon now. 

 

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

I think you have the contrasts confused. Cersei is the one who thought love was a poison and Sansa insists that everyone wants this basic thing. Because she's right. It's a basic human desire. It doesn't have to be an obsession or a fairy tale, because her parents find it. The author himself is also in a long, committed relationship so I find it hypocritical. The character who loves romance...never finds it. Not even a whiff. Meanwhile the author calls himself a romantic.

Anything else for Sansa is just fanon now. 

 

I saw that coming in the books. Sansa dreams of love but no one has ever really loved her besides familiarly. Everyone is using her. She is really the lone wolf, surrounded by predators. This was a key reason I thought the sisters would invert their world views.

[Rose of Red Lake]

12 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

This is one of the many problems that D&D presented.

The two queens who are sexually active are labeled not only as villains but as insane loose cannons?

The last three episodes of Game of Thrones have some very problematic, misogynistic overtones. I can't really understand how you can really like it...

It's cringe-worthy. Sophie Turner talking about how Sansa has sworn off relationships forever and will never letting another man touch her must have been D&D's thinking too. Asexual Sansa. Yay.

Meanwhile evol Queen Cersei and tyrant Queen Dany have manwhores galore...lmao. Please, GRRM, don't do this.

[Rose of Red Lake]

8 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

I saw that coming in the books. Sansa dreams of love but no one has ever really loved her besides familiarly. Everyone is using her. She is really the lone wolf, surrounded by predators. This was a key reason I thought the sisters would invert their world views.

I dont think that's true. She has knights falling over her in the Vale even when she's a bastard. I dont think they're doing it just to curry favor with the Lord Protector (some, but not all). Just a few small romantic gestures, would make her happy, and Sansa should be happy.

They skipped over all of that on the show. 

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

I dont think that's true. She has knights falling over her in the Vale even when she's a bastard. I dont think they're doing it just to curry favor with the Lord Protector (some, but not all). Just a few small romantic gestures, would make her happy, and Sansa should be happy.

They skipped over all of that on the show. 

Yeah, she's pretty but that doesn't make people love you. GRRM has that beauty and the beast thing going on. Ygritte isn't gorgeous, Jon is plain. Brienne is beautiful of soul and Jaime is beautiful of face. Cersei is gorgeous but rotten inside. Robert was a young god of a man and then got drunk and fat. Danaerys is the most beautiful woman in the world and the biggest monster inside. As Arya becomes more deadly she becomes prettier. Beware the pretty ones seems to be a message in George's work. I can totally see Sansa, proclaimed as gorgeous die alone.

[Rose of Red Lake]

2 minutes ago, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Beware the pretty ones seems to be a message in George's work. I can totally see Sansa, proclaimed as gorgeous die alone.

Well that's your depressing fanon, because we won't see that happen.

I think the theme is that "beauty is deceptive," not that beauty means, destined to be punished.

Punishing pretty girls - consistently - means he's an incel. I hope he's not. If that's the kind of fiction people like, they could just browse the men's right's reddits and be entertained.

[BlackLightning]

On 8/18/2019 at 3:47 PM, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

She doesn't need it though. That is a good contrast between her and Danaerys. Both began saying that they wanted the love of the people as Queen. In the end Sansa doesn't need love. One of her brother's died for it, one was destroyed by it, her sister seems to have broken someone with it. Daenerys on the other hand can't cope without being loved. It gives her validation. When she doesn't have it, we saw what happened.  Summed up by this quite aptly:

In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair! 

 

Galadriel (from Lord of the Rings) and Daenerys have more than a few similarities but this is not an accurate comparison. It's not even an accurate understanding of that quote.

That quote isn't about being a evil human tyrant. It's about becoming a force of nature. It's ultimately about unrequited love or becoming such a massive celebrity where everyone falls in love with you but you don't know that these people even exist so there's no way to love them back.

People are mesmerized by snowfall but they hate to be caught in the middle of it regardless of whether they have protection or not.

On 8/18/2019 at 4:12 PM, AryaNymeriaVisenya said:

Yeah, she's pretty but that doesn't make people love you. GRRM has that beauty and the beast thing going on. Ygritte isn't gorgeous, Jon is plain. Brienne is beautiful of soul and Jaime is beautiful of face. Cersei is gorgeous but rotten inside. Robert was a young god of a man and then got drunk and fat. Danaerys is the most beautiful woman in the world and the biggest monster inside. As Arya becomes more deadly she becomes prettier. Beware the pretty ones seems to be a message in George's work. I can totally see Sansa, proclaimed as gorgeous die alone.

Daenerys is the biggest monster?

I don't know, you seem like a bit of a hypocrite. Arya, Nymeria and Visenya are all a part of your username yet you call Daenerys the biggest monster even in light of what we have always known about Arya, Nymeria (both the wolf and the woman) and Visenya….

I'm with @Rose of Red Lake on this one. It's not a good story to tell.

[Cas Stark]

Well, going by the show, it looks like the Starks will die out.  Bran can't have children in both mediums.  Arya takes a powder and says she will never return, so for story purposes, she won't beget any heirs who will be coming back to Westeros.  Jon isn't a Stark, but even so, he has taken the black again and so, presumably no children.  That leaves Sansa.  If the books end broadly the same way, she would be the only hope to create the next generation of Starks, but in the show she's alone, and the actress who played her believes she will stay alone.  It would be strange to give the Starks such a Pyrrhic victory, where they basically win it all at the end, but its only lasting for their lifetimes.  But, then, as I have long suspected ASOIAF isn't bittersweet but bitter.

[Raksha 2014]

I don't think it's written in stone anywhere that the Starks will die out.

Arya didn't say that she would never return, just that she wasn't going North, the implication being that she wasn't returning North at this time.  There's no reason to think that Arya couldn't go exploring for two, three, four or eight years and then return to see how her family is doing.  

Sansa has enough political awareness to understand the importance of producing an heir to House Stark.  Since she is the first Queen in the North, and has considerable support, she can probably pick a spouse who will content to be her consort rather than a ruling King.  Book-Sansa will almost certainly never be Ramsay's bride and torture-toy; so she will hopefully never be sexually brutalized and not be traumatized by the notion of having sex.  Sansa might even remember Cersei's words that "you will love your children".  I could see Sansa making a cold-blooded decision to choose a husband for political experience rather than passion; and, though she may never feel the tenderness and love her parents shared, she may have a marriage with herself and her husband share mutual respect and fondness for their kids.

I don't see Sophie Turner's words about the character she plays as having anything to do with how GRRM will write that character.

I could, of course, be wrong.  But if GRRM does decide that House Stark dynastically withers away, that's his right, though it will annoy me a lot.