Is House Blackfyre really extinct on the male line?

[Daendrew]

Is House Blackfyre really extinct on the male line?

If you look at the family tree, you will see Haegon had son(s) we know nothing about and Daemon I had two sons we know nothing about.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Blackfyre

[Lord Varys]

That's what both Illyrio and Yandel told us, indicating that both Haegon's sons as well as the (descendants of) Daemon I's younger sons were long dead when the series begins.

The fact that the Golden Company is run by a Toyne and then by a Strickland - neither of whom claim Blackfyre descent through the female line as far as we know - reinforce this. If there were still Blackfyres around one should expect them to claim the position of captain-general of the Golden Company for themselves.

And it is unclear if and how many children Aenys Blackfyre had, or from whom Daemon (IV) and his cousin Maelys the Monstrous are descended. What we can be sure of, however - at least at this point -, is that any male offspring they all may have had is dead. Male descendants through the female line (through daughters, granddaughters, or great-granddaughters of Daemon I) may still be around during the main series.

[nyser1]

Legitimately it would appear so. I would not be surprised if there were "Blackfyre Seeds" around Essos.

[asongofheresy]

I don't think so, I also don't think GC being led by non-Blackfyres is a proof, those who claim the IT should be more than mere Sell Swords imo, use them to your advantage but don't chose it over the crown. I actually don't believe Illyrio after Saera's hands fiasco, and I don't think Yandel has more information about Blackfyres than others, it is possible Yandel tried to make sure Blackfyre wasn't a thread to new Baratheon Dynasty. I think GRRM saying Daemon had a daughter he agree to marry Aegor before dying was a mistake because supposed children of Aegor never appeared in Rebellions and GRRM decided she wasn't needed for Blackfyre to continue. I think it would be better if Daemon had seven sons only. 

[Lord Varys]

40 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

I don't think so, I also don't think GC being led by non-Blackfyres is a proof, those who claim the IT should be more than mere Sell Swords imo, use them to your advantage but don't chose it over the crown. I actually don't believe Illyrio after Saera's hands fiasco, and I don't think Yandel has more information about Blackfyres than others, it is possible Yandel tried to make sure Blackfyre wasn't a thread to new Baratheon Dynasty. I think GRRM saying Daemon had a daughter he agree to marry Aegor before dying was a mistake because supposed children of Aegor never appeared in Rebellions and GRRM decided she wasn't needed for Blackfyre to continue. I think it would be better if Daemon had seven sons only. 

We do know that the leadership of the Golden Company passed from Bittersteel to the Blackfyres, notably to Daemon (IV) and (eventually) Maelys, with their fathers or brothers holding the positions prior to them.

Thus it is signficant that both Toyne and Strickland don't seem to be Blackfyre relations through the female line. Not to mention that the continuous control the Targaryen element in the Golden Company had over the company - Bittersteel and eventually his Blackfyre descendants - strongly implies that it was seen as the hereditary property of that bloodline rather than something you gain control by merit alone.

4 hours ago, nyser1 said:

Legitimately it would appear so. I would not be surprised if there were "Blackfyre Seeds" around Essos.

Those would be completely insignficant if they are not legitimate - or rather: they would be as significant as the armies of sons and daughter the Unworthy fathered on whores and serving women and peasants, etc.

[FictionIsntReal]

1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

I don't think so, I also don't think GC being led by non-Blackfyres is a proof, those who claim the IT should be more than mere Sell Swords imo, use them to your advantage but don't chose it over the crown. I actually don't believe Illyrio after Saera's hands fiasco, and I don't think Yandel has more information about Blackfyres than others, it is possible Yandel tried to make sure Blackfyre wasn't a thread to new Baratheon Dynasty. I think GRRM saying Daemon had a daughter he agree to marry Aegor before dying was a mistake because supposed children of Aegor never appeared in Rebellions and GRRM decided she wasn't needed for Blackfyre to continue. I think it would be better if Daemon had seven sons only. 

There are no "supposed children of Aegor". GRRM was asked about them and responded that he didn't think Aegor had any.

[Damsel in Distress]

The legitimate male line was destroyed but there must be more than a few bastards carrying the Blackfyre line without knowing it.  Bastardry makes a difference socially and legally.  The science of genetics does not discriminate.  A Blackfyre semen will serve Dany's purposes just as well as a Targaryen if she should desire to rebuild the dragon dynasty. 

[Megorova]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If there were still Blackfyres around one should expect them to claim the position of captain-general of the Golden Company for themselves.

Unless he is an eunuch, and thus, won't be accepted by warriors, as their leader.

My guess is that Varys could be son of either Maelys the Monstrous, or the last Daemon Blackfyre, while the mother could be Jenny of Oldstones. Jenny could be daughter of the Ghost of High Heart. And the GoHH could be Rohanna Webber-Lannister. So, possibly, Varys' nickname, is a hint, that he is grandson of the Red Widow.

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And it is unclear if and how many children Aenys Blackfyre had, or from whom Daemon (IV) and his cousin Maelys the Monstrous are descended.

I could be totally wrong about this, but for now I think that Barristan Selmy is Aenys' grandson. One of Aenys' daughters is Barristan's mother. So Barristan is a Blackfyre from female line. And he is, possibly, fAegon's father. So fAegon is also a Blackfyre from female line.

Sera was possibly Varys' sister, or half-sister (same mother, different fathers - Daemon, Maelys. Could be that when Jenny was kidnapped by Blackfyres from Summerhall, she became either Daemon's or Maelys' wife or concubine. After Maelys killed Daemon, if prior that Jenny was Daemon's trophy, later she was taken by Maelys. So, if Sera is older sister, then she is Daemon's daughter, and Varys' father is Maelys. And after Maelys' death, Jenny became Alequo Adarys' queen. He sold her children into slavery (Sera went to pillow house, and Varys was bought by traveling mummers), and she poisoned him). And Illyrio could be descendant of Saera Targaryen's children and Aerion Brightflame's bastards, that he had fathered during his exile in Lys. So Varys and Illyrio were brothers-in-law.

Daemon I was approximately from the same generation as Maekar I Targaryen (they were born in 170 and between 174-178). Daemon's children were born between 184 and 195. Maekar's children were born between 191-194 and 201+. Daemon III and his siblings and first cousins are about the same age as Aegon V. So Daemon III's children or nephews and nieces and children of his cousins - and that's Daemon the Last and Maelys - were from about the same generation as Aegon's children, like Duncan the Small and King Aerys. So, if Daemon the Last or Maelys had any children, then those children should be about same age as Rhaegar, or close to it. And Varys seems to be in his late 30s - early 40s. If Rhaegar was alive, he would have been 41 in 300. Based on Barristan's age (he was born in 236 or 237), he's from the same generation as Aerys II (born in 244), Daemon the Last, and Maelys the Monstrous, so he could be Aenys' grandson.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Unless he is an eunuch, and thus, won't be accepted by warriors, as their leader.

My guess is that Varys could be son of either Maelys the Monstrous, or the last Daemon Blackfyre, while the mother could be Jenny of Oldstones. Jenny could be daughter of the Ghost of High Heart. And the GoHH could be Rohanna Webber-Lannister. So, possibly, Varys' nickname, is a hint, that he is grandson of the Red Widow.

Sounds like nonsense to me, and it would contradict both Yandel's and Illyrio's own claim that House Blackfyre was extinct in the male line. Eunuch or not, if Varys was the (legitimate) son of a Blackfyre he would be a Blackfyre himself, and Illyrio would be wrong/lying in ADwD.

3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Daemon I was approximately from the same generation as Maekar I Targaryen (they were born in 170 and between 174-178). Daemon's children were born between 184 and 195. Maekar's children were born between 191-194 and 201+.

Daemon Blackfyre was born in 169 AC, the same year as Baelor Breakspear. Maekar is thus at least three years younger than Daemon, but possibly as much as 4-6 or more years. Daemon immediately had children with Rohanne of Tyrosh or else the twins wouldn't have been around twelve when they died on the Redgrass Field (he married in 184 AC and the twins died in 196 AC).

Daeron the Drunk is around eighteen in THK (Aerion and Valarr are around sixteen), meaning he must have been born indeed around 191 AC.

All that implies that Daeron II arranged the marriages of his sons early on in his reign, possibly before he started the negotiations for the unification with Dorne. Maekar and Baelor definitely were already married in 191 and 193 AC, else their firstborn sons would have been bastards.

[Lost Melnibonean]

13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Those would be completely insignficant if they are not legitimate - or rather: they would be as significant as the armies of sons and daughter the Unworthy fathered on whores and serving women and peasants, etc.

I am not so sure... There are plenty of officers in the Golden Company of low and/or illegitimate birth. But I would certainly agree that illegitimate descent from Daemon (or Bittersteel for that matter) would require more than just the Blackfyre blood. It would require some skill at arms and/or other valued utility. Legitimate descent along the female line, though...

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I am not so sure... There are plenty of officers in the Golden Company of low and/or illegitimate birth. But I would certainly agree that illegitimate descent from Daemon (or Bittersteel for that matter) would require more than just the Blackfyre blood. It would require some skill at arms and/or other valued utility. Legitimate descent along the female line, though...

Sure, whoever wants to lead the Golden Company has to have strength at arms, but if there were some Blackfyre descendant - female line and/or illegitimate - who knows how to use a sword they would either be among the high officers or they would be captain-general. Harry Strickland isn't exactly the greatest warrior of all time, either.

But nothing indicates that there are any Blackfyre descendants left among the Golden Company. Descendants of Blackfyre friends and partisans, sure, but not actual Blackfyre descendants.

And it is very likely that Maelys' immediate successor as captain-general wasn't Myles Toyne, there were others between Maelys and Toyne. After all, if it were just Bittersteel, Daemon (IV), Maelys, and Toyne then we would only have four gilded skulls. There have to be some other captain-generals between Bittersteel and Daemon (IV) - assuming the latter actually was captain-general and not merely a guy who wanted to be captain-general and was put down by Maelys before he could claim the mantle -, possibly the sixth or seventh son of Daemon I - as well as a number of others between Maelys and Toyne. It is not very likely that a man that doesn't seem to have died of old age was commanding the Golden Company for 20+ years before he even met Jon Connington - and then another decade before he died.

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sounds like nonsense to me, and it would contradict both Yandel's and Illyrio's own claim that House Blackfyre was extinct in the male line. Eunuch or not, if Varys was the (legitimate) son of a Blackfyre he would be a Blackfyre himself, and Illyrio would be wrong/lying in ADwD.

Varys can't have children, so on him the male line of House Blackfyre ends, and thus is extinct. And it doesn't matter, that Varys is alive for now, he is either way - a dead end for Blackfyre blood. Now, and 10 years from now, and 20 years from now, the situation won't change - he's an eunuch and will remain an eunuch, he will have no children of his blood, he's the last Blackfyre from male line, and there will be no continuation of that line from him, thus, that line is extinct, even though there's still Varys.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Daemon Blackfyre was born in 169 AC, the same year as Baelor Breakspear.

According to this

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Daemon_I_Blackfyre

he was born in 170. In late 170. After Daemon's birth King Baelor fasted for 40 days, those 40 days partially went into 171, and in 171 Baelor died.

And according to this

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon's_Conquest/Calculations_Ages#Baelor_Targaryen

Baelor Breakspear also was born in 170.

Though some of those calculations in the Wiki could be incorrect. But majority of them are correct.

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Varys can't have children, so on him the male line of House Blackfyre ends, and thus is extinct. And it doesn't matter, that Varys is alive for now, he is either way - a dead end for Blackfyre blood. Now, and 10 years from now, and 20 years from now, the situation won't change - he's an eunuch and will remain an eunuch, he will have no children of his blood, he's the last Blackfyre from male line, and there will be no continuation of that line from him, thus, that line is extinct, even though there's still Varys.

Varys is still alive, though. If he were a Blackfyre son he would be a Blackfyre and the Blackfyres wouldn't be extinct in the male line. That would only be the case after Varys' death - if he was the last Blackfyre. Illyrio would be lying if he Varys was a Blackfyre.

3 minutes ago, Megorova said:

According to this

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Daemon_I_Blackfyre

he was born in 170. In late 170. After Daemon's birth King Baelor fasted for 40 days, those 40 days partially went into 171, and in 171 Baelor died.

And according to this

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Years_after_Aegon's_Conquest/Calculations_Ages#Baelor_Targaryen

Baelor Breakspear also was born in 170.

Though some of those calculations in the Wiki could be incorrect. But majority of them are correct.

Yeah, that was a typo. Baelor and Daemon were born a year before Baelor the Blessed died.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It is not very likely that a man that doesn't seem to have died of old age was commanding the Golden Company for 20+ years before he even met Jon Connington - and then another decade before he died.

Maelys was killed by Barristan Selmy, and Barri is still around. He was born in 236 or 237, and the War of Ninepenny Kings happened in 260, when he was 23 or 24. Bittersteel died after combat, aged 69 (born in 172, died in 241), not from old age. So, even though JonCon and Myles Toyne were friends, it doesn't mean, that they were from the same generation, or close in age. Myles could have been from older generation, as old as Barristan. Thus, Myles could have became captain-general of GC, when he was in his 20s, after Maelys' death, and after Robert's Rebellion, when he met JonCon, he was in his 40s, and he died approximately 10 or so years later, when he was in his early 50s, not from old age.

So, there was 1. Bittersteel (died in 241), then he was replaced by 2. one of Haegon's sons/younger brother of Daemon III, then, after that guy died, his place was taken by 3. Daemon the Last, and then 4. Maelys the Monstrous, and 5. Myles Toyne. And 6. Harry Strickland.

ADWD, The Lost Lord - "The captain-general's tent was made of cloth-of-gold and surrounded by a ring of pikes topped with gilded skulls. One skull was larger than the rest, grotesquely malformed. Below it was a second, no larger than a child's fist. Maelys the Monstrous and his nameless brother. The other skulls had a sameness to them, though several had been cracked and splintered by the blows that had slain them, and one had filed, pointed teeth. "Which one is Myles?" Griff found himself asking.

"There. On the end." " <- Myles is the last.

So, either that one with filed teeth was Number 2, or there really was more of them, more than 5 from above.

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys is still alive, though. If he were a Blackfyre son he would be a Blackfyre and the Blackfyres wouldn't be extinct in the male line. That would only be the case after Varys' death - if he was the last Blackfyre. Illyrio would be lying if he Varys was a Blackfyre.

It doesn't matter that he's still alive, he can't reproduce, thus, if he is a Blackfyre from male line, then that line is already as good as dead. Because no matter how many time will pass, Varys will remain a dead end for Blackfyre genes, he will have no children, and those who are unable to reproduce, are the end of their House's line. From him the male line of Blackfyres won't continue, and if he is the only one left, then it means - the end of the road, already now, and not later, when he will also die, but now, because he is the end.

The line is dead, because the line is formed by dots, that are connected and continue to form the line further - 1 to 2, 2 to 3, 3 to 4, etc. After Varys - there's nothing, there will be no Varys+1. He's the last dot on the line, the end of it. The line is extinct, even if the last dot on it is still alive. That doesn't matter, because from this dot, the line won't go further.

P.S. Illyrio didn't said, that all Blackfyres from male line are dead. He said, that the line is extinct. And with an eunuch, as the last representative of that line, the line is finished.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, whoever wants to lead the Golden Company has to have strength at arms, but if there were some Blackfyre descendant - female line and/or illegitimate - who knows how to use a sword they would either be among the high officers or they would be captain-general. Harry Strickland isn't exactly the greatest warrior of all time, either.

But nothing indicates that there are any Blackfyre descendants left among the Golden Company. Descendants of Blackfyre friends and partisans, sure, but not actual Blackfyre descendants.

Well, you know I have a thing for Lysono. 

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Well, you know I have a thing for Lysono. 

The guy is just some Lyseni. They don't need special blood to look special - or rather: their Valyrian blood is much purer than the blood of the Blackfyres or Targaryens could ever be.

[rotting sea cow]

On 8/15/2019 at 7:23 PM, Lord Varys said:

That's what both Illyrio and Yandel told us, indicating that both Haegon's sons as well as the (descendants of) Daemon I's younger sons were long dead when the series begins.

Indeed. It's not only then. It's actually GRRM telling us that we should look at the female line. 

On 8/15/2019 at 7:23 PM, Lord Varys said:

The fact that the Golden Company is run by a Toyne and then by a Strickland - neither of whom claim Blackfyre descent through the female line as far as we know - reinforce this. If there were still Blackfyres around one should expect them to claim the position of captain-general of the Golden Company for themselves.

Not necessarily. The first captain general wa Bittersteel,  not a Blackfyre. In fact, becoming captain general would be an extra burden for any claimant who should be more preoccupied with making political alliances that help him to gain the throne instead fighting against Myr or Volantis.

On 8/15/2019 at 7:23 PM, Lord Varys said:

And it is unclear if and how many children Aenys Blackfyre had, or from whom Daemon (IV) and his cousin Maelys the Monstrous are descended. What we can be sure of, however - at least at this point -, is that any male offspring they all may have had is dead. Male descendants through the female line (through daughters, granddaughters, or great-granddaughters of Daemon I) may still be around during the main series.

Like a certain boy who goes by the name of young Griff?

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Well, you know I have a thing for Lysono. 

In addition, I just want to point again to FaB were it has been made crystal clear that Valyrian blood is very prevalent in the Free Cities, to the degree that Jaehaerys I is afraid of the Braavosi and the Volantenes founding new dragonlord bloodlines should they ever acquire living dragon hatchlings or be able to hatch the three eggs Elissa Farman stole.

That puts the nonsense about 'Targaryen blood' into perspective. The blood of Valyrian dragonlords is 'magical' - it is 'the blood of the dragon' - and it is very prevalent in the Free Cities. The Westerosi and many readers don't get that because the only relevant Valyrian bloodline in Westeros is the Targaryen (and Velaryon) bloodline.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Indeed. It's not only then. It's actually GRRM telling us that we should look at the female line.

It sort of implies that, yes. Especially if one keeps in mind that generally speaking a house being extinct in the male line essentially means the family has died out. Female line descendants may be biological descendants of their ancestors, but they do not bear the name. There might be female line Gardeners and Strongs around, but Houses Gardener and Strong are dead and gone. In that sense it is rather noteworthy that Illyrio points out that the Blackfyres are only gone in the male line - and that he doesn't merely say they are extinct. This indicates that he knows that there are female line descendants of House Blackfyre out there somewhere.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Not necessarily. The first captain general wa Bittersteel,  not a Blackfyre. In fact, becoming captain general would be an extra burden for any claimant who should be more preoccupied with making political alliances that help him to gain the throne instead fighting against Myr or Volantis.

The Golden Company was founded as a means to keep the Blackfyre cause alive and the men who followed Bittersteel and Daemon's sons into exile together. It is true that it was founded by Bittersteel, but Bittersteel did what he did for his nephews (or at least pretended that he was doing it for them). After his death (and possibly even during his captivity) the Golden Company passed to the Blackfyres. Other men only took it over after Maelys the Monstrous was dead.

And in Maelys we see that the last power base the Blackfyres had was the Golden Company. Maelys was no proper pretender, no politician or diplomat - he was nothing but a brutal sellsword commander who was able use his military power as a means to forge an alliance with other malcontents. But without the Golden Company Maelys would have essentially had nothing. Even Daemon III was looking like a joke back in 236 AC, and that was 24 years before the Ninepenny Kings.

Strickland's Golden Company is basically little more than a sellsword company. They are about to go native, and are run by Volantenes and Summer Islanders rather than being a Westerosi-only company which essentially only lives for the return back home. It is still a place for Westerosi sellswords but no longer a group whose sole purpose is to avenge themselves or their ancestors.

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

Like a certain boy who goes by the name of young Griff?

Despite the fact that I long championed the idea that Illyrio may be descended from a daughter of Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre, I'm reasonably certain that any descendant of Daemon I through the female line still running around in the main series is not going to be an immediate relation or descendant of Maelys Blackfyre. He would be too prominent. Perhaps an obscure relation of Daemon (IV) - a daughter of his sister, say - or some daughter - or granddaughter, even - of the unfortunate Aenys Blackfyre.

If there were Blackfyre sons who only had daughters and the Blackfyres continued the 'males come first' policy the Targaryens started (which is very likely considering that Daemon I had seven sons and one of them already tried to push aside his own nephew) then a son who produced only daughters wouldn't have been all that influential in House Blackfyre - and those girls would have disappeared into obscurity as soon as their father was dead (unless they were not used as brides for their male Blackfyre cousins to keep the bloodline pure).

[rotting sea cow]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

It sort of implies that, yes. Especially if one keeps in mind that generally speaking a house being extinct in the male line essentially means the family has died out. Female line descendants may be biological descendants of their ancestors, but they do not bear the name.

That's not true

House Targaryen lives trough the female line and any eventual son of Dany would bear that name

If the tales about Bael are true, House Stark was dead in the male line

Unless Jorah is restored, House Mormont continues through the female line.

Asha will probably continue the Greyjoy name. 

Etc.

It seems to me that the adoption of the mother name depends more on political considerations rather than some strict rules. 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Despite the fact that I long championed the idea that Illyrio may be descended from a daughter of Bittersteel and Calla Blackfyre,

I always liked that idea which would explain his influence over the GC, but didn't GRRM shut it down for good?

 

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

 

[Only 89 selfies today]

On 8/15/2019 at 1:15 PM, Daendrew said:

Is House Blackfyre really extinct on the male line?

If you look at the family tree, you will see Haegon had son(s) we know nothing about and Daemon I had two sons we know nothing about.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Blackfyre

According to what the in-story dialogue, yes they are.  But you never know.  Just because they are believed extinct doesn't make them so.